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Bears
Contributors to this thread:
Corax_latrans 18-Oct-22
[email protected] 18-Oct-22
Corax_latrans 18-Oct-22
DanaC 18-Oct-22
Corax_latrans 18-Oct-22
drycreek 18-Oct-22
[email protected] 18-Oct-22
Matt 18-Oct-22
Highlife 18-Oct-22
Corax_latrans 18-Oct-22
Shuteye 18-Oct-22
Corax_latrans 18-Oct-22
Matt 18-Oct-22
Murph 19-Oct-22
timex 19-Oct-22
Thornton 21-Oct-22
Corax_latrans 21-Oct-22
Thornton 21-Oct-22
timex 21-Oct-22
[email protected] 21-Oct-22
Corax_latrans 21-Oct-22
DanaC 22-Oct-22
timex 22-Oct-22
Corax_latrans 22-Oct-22
timex 22-Oct-22
timex 22-Oct-22
Thornton 22-Oct-22
timex 23-Oct-22
timex 23-Oct-22
Thornton 23-Oct-22
Corax_latrans 25-Oct-22
timex 26-Oct-22
18-Oct-22

Corax_latrans's Link
I’ve always liked David Petzal…,

This is a link to an article on the 10 most overrated cartridges, and that 10 MM that so many of you guys have been advocating actually made his list.

Read the article if you wish. Come back and argue if you feel like it. I don’t really have a dog in the fight except that I do think that maybe a wheelgun enthusiast with some realistic expectations as to his upper limit for recoil might take a hard look at the .45 LC. Near as I can figure it, a hot-loaded .45LC is right on par with a .44 Mag., or you can (factory loaded) take it down to about 1/2 thr ME of the .44 Mag…. And if you’re a SA guy, why would you not go .45??? LOL

I expect a .44 mag is more versatile still (because of the SPCLs), if you can manage the hot stuff in the mag.

18-Oct-22
A hot (hand) loaded 45 LC is above a factory 44 mag. Basically on par with factory 454 Casull.

It's a handful but with practice, it's fine. Great big game round and pretty amazing range off a set of sticks. Mine is a 5.5" Ruger Bisley.

18-Oct-22
I was thinking the 4”.

Gotta love those antique cartridges that are scaled for BP loads. SO much untapped capacity. Now I just need a Marlin in .45LC… To go with the the .45/70…. ;)

From: DanaC
18-Oct-22
If you're not burning 'magnum' loads of slow powder you don't need long barrels. Carrying the 45 LC in both handgun and lever rifle is a 'traditional' choice that still works.

(I would not care to shoot 45-70 in any handgun, no matter how heavy!)

18-Oct-22
Jeeeminy, Don…

If the LC comes anywhere close to the Casull, I can only think of one reason to buy a Casull, which is that a purpose-built revolver in that chambering would be correspondingly massive.

From a packability standpoint, I was thinking the standard Blackhawk, though I suppose it’s possible that that one is not rated for those very high pressures…

I just have to approach everything from a “what’s going to fit me?” POV, and a lot of the popular choices and I just aren’t physically compatible. For a while many years ago, a particular girl & I kinda had a thing for each other…. She was 6’1”…. Some things worked better than others.

From: drycreek
18-Oct-22
I think Petzal is ass backwards on just about everything he writes. He writes for controversy and he gets what he writes for.

The .41 magnum outperforms the 10 mm in every way, and the 10 mm may “kick” too much for a wuss, not so for an accomplished shooter. The .280 AI will do anything a 7 mm magnum will do and the 7 mm magnum is a good, flat shooting cartridge. I wonder sometimes how these “gunwriters” even survive. BTW, an animal will never know whether you kill it with a .41 mag or a .44 mag. The .41 shoots a little flatter but the difference in bullet weight is less than a .22 long rifle bullet.

And just in case you’re wondering, the Ruger revolvers will stand damn near any reasonable cartridge that you can stick into them. They aint your grandaddy’s Colt ! Peruse the Single Action Pro Boards sometimes and read about the wildcats and SAAMI approved cartridges those guys shoot. It should be an eye opener.

18-Oct-22
.41 is great. But I'm an Elmer Keith reader so... my view may be bias

From: Matt
18-Oct-22
I learned a long time ago that any time you support an argument by quoting Field & Stream or Outdoor Life, you've already lost. ;-)

From: Highlife
18-Oct-22
ROTFFLMAO!!!!

18-Oct-22
LOL, Matt!

I don’t know enough about being a gun crank to opine on Petzal & his preferences other than that he writes well, and that I was very pleased when he came to the revelation that the mild-mannered 7-08 is every bit as good as the guy not getting his head knocked off by it… I being a reformed 7-Mag owner myself… I hated to let that one go, but I can’t say that I’ve missed it any.

From: Shuteye
18-Oct-22
I killed a lot of deer with a Ruger 44 mag revolver and TC single shot. Killed a lot more with my S&W 460 mag. It was way ahead of any other revolver I used. Dropped some in their tracks and made doubles a few times. I am old now and the 460 is a handfull. I am going to use a 350 Legend Ruger Ranch Rifle from now on. Killed a few with a 357 mag Ruger revolver also. Good shot placement and they will all put a deer down pretty quickly.

18-Oct-22
LOL, Matt!

I don’t know enough about being a gun crank to opine on Petzal & his preferences other than that he writes well, and that I was very pleased when he came to the revelation that the mild-mannered 7-08 is every bit as good as the guy not getting his head knocked off by it… I being a reformed 7-Mag owner myself… I hated to let that one go, but I can’t say that I’ve missed it any.

From: Matt
18-Oct-22
I shoot a 7MM-08 as well, but dumped my .40/.45’s for 9MM. Modern bullet design has been a great equalizer.

From: Murph
19-Oct-22
Maybe I’m off course or maverick here but the thread started as a dig toward the all so infamous 10mm which we all talk about for backcountry carry to potentially stop Mr Grizz. Now we’re going down other rabbit holes, I don’t mind the argument the 10 is well accomplished from that perspective maybe an overreach for 2 legged predators but I overlooked that retrospect being bowsight. Legitimately I have an opinion on all the cartridges listed and many others that have been interjected I agree the writer was maybe searching for content on that article cuz outside of only a couple mentioned probably picked on some of the most famous today.. Ask 10 guys get 10 answers sums it up to me. Whatever you can hit, what your aiming at , seems like a good start, especially for novice handgun shooters ,if we’re still talking the 10mm. If it’s too much recoil theirs other options if it’s not enough horsepower theirs other options, ask the college boys in Wyoming that got chewed up the other day by mr Grizz which one they would have liked, I’m guessing they wouldn’t have been picky…

From: timex
19-Oct-22

timex's embedded Photo
This pic was taken in 1992 that's my son Eddie he was 5 in that pic. There was about a dozen of us that would drive deer every Saturday in the NW VA hill country and we were very good at it.
timex's embedded Photo
This pic was taken in 1992 that's my son Eddie he was 5 in that pic. There was about a dozen of us that would drive deer every Saturday in the NW VA hill country and we were very good at it.
I've been around a lot of deer killing in my life. There's 2 cartridges mentioned in the link that I'll disagree with first is the 7 mag when loaded with heavy high bc bullets Is an excellent long range cartridge that the 270 & 280 can't even come close to and the 7mm weatherby is just too finicky with it's freebore to easily get accuracy out of.

2nd is the Ackley's. I can't speak for em all but I do have some experience with a 6mm AI. And WOW. Easily over 4000fps with lighter varmint bullets and 500 fps faster than a factory loaded 243 with deer sized bullets.

These days I shy away from heavy recoil guns and my long range deer rifle is a custom 6.5x284 win. fairly low recoil and super flat for a short action cartridge working with around 50 grains of power.

As far as hand guns go imo the difference between a critter killing pistol and a people killing pistol is like night & day. I've never shot a 10. But but have plenty of experience with a 357 mag and would consider that to be about the most recoil I'd want in a people killing gun. And would consider the 357mag to be about the lightest handgun cartridge for deer sized game. I had a Dan Wesson 357 maximum silhouette pistol that I killed a few deer with and wish I still had. I also hunted with a few 44 revolvers, TC's and a rem xp 100 in 7mm br. But lost interest in pistol hunting for some reason. Recoil anxiety mostly. I have two 9mm's & a 38 for cc purpose and do not and probably never will hunt in big bear country.

From: Thornton
21-Oct-22
There's a guy on YouTube that dropped a big bull Elk with a .45 Colt lever action with one shot. Mine will punch through some fairly heavy guage steel even with cowboy action loads out of my 1892 carbine. As for a 7mm-08 being as good as a 7 mag, there is no comparison.

21-Oct-22
“As for a 7mm-08 being as good as a 7 mag, there is no comparison.”

You’re Trolling again today? Because nobody ever said they were “comparable”.

And I guess “good” is subjective.

A 7Mag won’t do anything that a 7-08 won’t do, but if you’re willing to carry a heavy, long-barreled rifle and put up with the additional expense, recoil, muzzle blast and meat loss, the belted round WILL do it from another 100 or couple hundred yards away. The 7-08’s useful to about 250 yards, which is about 50% farther than the longest shot I’ve ever taken on an animal and frankly, there was just no juice in it.

Zeroed at 200 yards, my old Sako would pretty much hit dimes at that range. A gallon jug usually has a 3” circle on at least one side, and at 300 yards, when I hid the cap of the jug behind the crosshairs, the bullets always landed in the circle. I can’t recall if that scope topped out at 7X or 7.5X. Didn’t matter. I killed a LOT of milkjugs for a few years…

Anyway, for me there’s just no up-side to a Magnum ANYTHING, really. Not that I couldn’t figure out how to put one to good use, but I’m just not that interested.

From: Thornton
21-Oct-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
"Trolling"... no, just tired if your a comments on what seems the only cartridge you own because you couldn't handle the mild recoil of a 7 mag

I live and hunt in wide open KS and a few Western states. The 7 mag is actually looked upon by many as underpowered by guys that hunt Idaho and Colorado where 500 yard shots and beyond are common. Some prefer the 28 Nosler, 300 PRC, 7mm STW, or the .30-378Weatherby and the such. 250 yards is close, off-hand 30-30 range. I've got a pair of 7 mags. And have killed, with one shot, out past 500 yards. The threaded Tikka, I use my YHM Phantom silencer, and it reduces the report to a .22 and recoil to a nudge so soft, my neighbor's 12 year old daughter shoots it with ease. Your 7mm-08 is useful far beyond 250 yards. I guarantee with the right scope, ballistics chart, and ammo, you could make hits past 600 yards fairly easily with it. That being said, it doesn't hold a candle to the 7 mag at long range for either energy, or trajectory.

From: timex
21-Oct-22
Corax...your underestimating the 7mm08. It's a necked down 308 and the 308 has a huge following in competition shooting to 1000yds. Yes there's an ethical limit energy wise for hunting but it's well beyond the 250 yds you stated.

I somewhat agree with you that the 7mag is not a significant improvement over the 7mm08 with let's say 140 grain bullets. But load the 7mag with a 180 grain berger vld with a ballistic coefficient of 673 in front of some slow burning powder & a long barrel and now your comparing a VW bug to a porsche. You hunt hardwoods and the 7mm08 is a great choice. In the late season I sit on the edge of several hundred acre corn & been fields. I really don't consider it hunting it's more like grocery shopping with a gun. But heavy high bc bullets pushed by slow burning powder from long barreled guns definitely have their place.

21-Oct-22
Even though we have been coming up with new cartridges and writers have been comparing rounds forever, it's all actually simple. Nothing is free. The advantage of the newest wizbang round is offset by something, recoil, action length, brass life, cost, barrel life, ammo availability, etc.

What's "better" is subjective. Is a 30-378 a better elk round than a 6.5 Creedmoor? If you can shoot both equally well, maybe. Most elk are lost by poor placement more than what cartridge the hunter used.

21-Oct-22
I hear ya, Timex. And let me just start by saying that back when I was killing milk jugs, I probably would have been interested in shooting at longer ranges, had one been available. But there wouldn’t have been much point to it, from a hunting perspective. I knew how to use my reticle to ballpark the range on an Elk-sized target out to about 400 yards and I knew my ballistics tables by heart and I figured that was good enough.

So I don’t think I’m selling the 7-08 short; I’m just playing the game under the rules I grew up with.

If you want to hunt with a gadget that tells you exactly how far away you are, that’s fine. I don’t. I like to get Close Enough that it doesn’t matter. That’s the point of the exercise, and if I have to think about it, I’m not there yet. I’m just more interested in solving the strategic problem of getting myself closer to the target than solving the math problem of where to aim from where I am.

Other folks’ priorities may differ, but that’s why they’re THEIR priorities and not mine.

From: DanaC
22-Oct-22
Out past a couple hundred yards (maybe less) I suspect that 'shooter ability' is more important than caliber. And if you're not a good enough - experienced enough - shooter to handle the recoil, a heavier kicking gun isn't going to help.

From: timex
22-Oct-22

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
This is the ballistics for my 6.5x284 shooting a 130grain berger hunting vld bullet @3300 fps with a 350 yard zero. I need to be mindful of the +5" at 200 but basically this is a hold dead on to 400 yards gun. I don't touch the turrets for shots inside 400 yards. Beyond that 500 is +7" & 600 is +9". On the turret This is not a heavy recoil cartridge and shots to 400 are no big deal. I don't care to shoot deer much beond that distance I've had animal movement during bullet flight times

For some reason some of Y'all speak as if you believe a big magnum is required to shoot past a few hundred yards.

22-Oct-22
With a laser and a round like that, a guy could do a lot of damage on coyotes!

I’ll admit that I like the .284 just as it is, but with a properly constructed bullet, 130 in a 6.5 oughtta be pretty slick on deer & smaller…

When I bought the 7-08, Big Green was loading an “Extended Range” round for it with a 154 boattail. My little Mtn Rifle shot that one like they were made for each other.

Of course, if I wanted a short-action bolt-gun In Case Of Bears, I’d probably look at something in a .338…. But I already have the .45-70, so…..

From: timex
22-Oct-22
Corax you seam to talk in circles. Are you calling a 338 win mag a short action cartridge ????????

You complain about 7 mag recoil but have a 45-70 ?????

And I'm getting the impression that you feel the 6.5 is at best a varmints & thin skinned game bullet. .......,.if so you couldn't be more wrong......now I'm not saying I'd use the 130s I shoot deer with but I'd kill everything in north America except a grizz or polar bear with my 6.5x284.

From: timex
22-Oct-22

timex's embedded Photo
For animals larger than deer I'd shoot this. Check out that bc.
timex's embedded Photo
For animals larger than deer I'd shoot this. Check out that bc.

From: Thornton
22-Oct-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
I would not be afraid to carry about any short action cartridge for elk, including. 243. Ive shot two bulls with a 6.5 Creedmoor. The first was 330 yards and one of the 129 grain Hornady SSTs zipped right through him. He walked off with 2 holes and laid down a short distance away and expired. This one was only 110 yards and the 143 gr ELD-X came apart inside him. He died in very short order. Not uncommon at all for a bull to soak up 3 or 4 rounds from a magnum before going down. Also stoned a big 180"s mule deer buck at 370 yards with the 129gr and he dropped like a rock. This year, I'm probably going to take my 6.5 PRC as it has similar ballistics to my 7 mags.

From: timex
23-Oct-22
Thornton........you absolutely need to try the berger vld hunting bullets. Scroll back up to the pic of the deer with my son and keep in mind that we did that every Saturday for about 20 years. I've killed a lot of deer with a lot of different cartridges and bullets nothing I've ever shot has put deer down like the berger bullets. The rifle recoils you hear a distinct POOOOMPH ya get back on the scope & 7-8 out of ten times there's white belly in the scope. I'll never hunt with another bullet except for in my Ruger 44 mag carbine thick woods gun.

From: timex
23-Oct-22

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
The two shiny holes were from 600 yards
timex's embedded Photo
The two shiny holes were from 600 yards
I don't know what makes the berger vld hunting bullets different but this is a 3/4" steel plate ( not armor lite) these shots were at 400 yards with 130s from the 6.5. You can see other bullets barely dent the steel and the bergers put craters in it.

From: Thornton
23-Oct-22
I have no doubt you are right. I've seen lots of videos and heard good things about them. Problem is,only thing I reload now is shotgun shells occasionally. I use Hornady factory ammo because they have a free online ballistics app for their ammo that is dead on. I can sight in a rifle with a few shells, and pull up a chart and be hitting targets about as far as I want to shoot without working up a load and burning lots of money and components in the process.

25-Oct-22
I’ll try to cover your questions quickly, there timex….

I know what a long action magnum is. I know what a short magnum is. I know the difference between light-for-caliber and heavy-for-caliber bullets. And I know you can do a hell of a lot more these days with the same cartridge/caliber bullet than you could do 35 years ago when I was getting into this stuff. Provided that you choose the right bullet for the application.

I don’t think I “complained“ about the recoil of the seven mag; I just don’t miss it. No doubt it was a terrible choice for a first hunting rifle, but I got to where I could keep my eyes open, see the milk jug blow up, rack a second round into the chamber, and never let the second milk jug out of my field of view through the scope. So I think I had it pretty well under control. I just don’t see much point in soaking up the added recoil for the privilege of throwing the same bullet faster just so that I could hit targets far beyond anything I ever would have considered for hunting purposes even when I was most interested in long range shooting.

So if I’m going to put up with added recoil, I want it to be because I am throwing a suitably convincing hunk of lead at adequate speed to get myself out of a jam in close quarters. Honestly, that’s not likely to ever come up, but meanwhile, standard factory .45/70 loads are actually kind of pleasant to shoot once you get away from the bench and they’re a good deer round. And now that we know that high-velocity slugs splatter lead fragments all through a carcass, I’m even happier shooting low-velocity slugs at stuff I’m planning to eat.

Or arrows, ideally. Steel’s non-toxic ;)

From: timex
26-Oct-22

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Corax..... We live and hunt in different parts of the country. You can clearly see in this photo that in my area agg land is a much higher percentage than wooded land. Imo in my area unless your just into watching deer a good long range gun is a necessity. Don't get me wrong when I hunt the creek bottoms my Ruger 44mag carbine is my weapon of choice. In fact in this picture the woods to the right of the airport runway I killed a really nice buck last season with my 44 carbine. But over the years my son & myself have killed probably 100 does in the surrounding fields.

As far as bullets designed to deliver extreme hydrostatic shock inside the chest cavity of an animal spreading lead particals throughout the entire animal. You just can't be serious @@##$$&&.... near about every animal I've ever killed with a rifle the area around the bullet impact and exit is a bloody quagulated mess and non edible irregardless.

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