Sitka Gear
NM muzzy change
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
nmwapiti 21-Oct-22
Adventurewriter 21-Oct-22
huntabsarokee 21-Oct-22
Dale06 21-Oct-22
nmwapiti 21-Oct-22
8point 21-Oct-22
8point 21-Oct-22
butcherboy 21-Oct-22
Treeline 21-Oct-22
[email protected] 21-Oct-22
nmwapiti 21-Oct-22
HDE 21-Oct-22
Corax_latrans 21-Oct-22
Bowbender 22-Oct-22
Bowbender 22-Oct-22
LINK 22-Oct-22
butcherboy 22-Oct-22
HDE 22-Oct-22
GDx 22-Oct-22
Bowboy 22-Oct-22
timex 22-Oct-22
APauls 22-Oct-22
HDE 22-Oct-22
GDx 22-Oct-22
GDx 22-Oct-22
Buglmin 22-Oct-22
HDE 22-Oct-22
Red Sparky 23-Oct-22
DanaC 23-Oct-22
HDE 23-Oct-22
JL 23-Oct-22
HDE 23-Oct-22
nmwapiti 23-Oct-22
nchunter 23-Oct-22
fishnride 23-Oct-22
[email protected] 23-Oct-22
HDE 23-Oct-22
grizzly63 23-Oct-22
timex 23-Oct-22
ohiohunter 24-Oct-22
Corax_latrans 24-Oct-22
Buckdeer 24-Oct-22
ohiohunter 24-Oct-22
nmwapiti 24-Oct-22
nmwapiti 24-Oct-22
From: nmwapiti
21-Oct-22
Not archery, but some on here might be interested to learn that NM will not allow scopes on any muzzleloaders starting next season. Reason is harvest rates that are almost indistinguishable from rifles. More info on the website if you're interested.

21-Oct-22
An interesting change and a good one in my view. But I think more people are going to think Ohhh.....lots of people will drop out of the muzzy draw......but and the odds will actually get worse

21-Oct-22
Are they going to lengthen the season now from 5 days?

From: Dale06
21-Oct-22
I think that’s a good move. Many modern day muzzle loaders have capabilities far beyond the muzzle loaders 20 years ago.

From: nmwapiti
21-Oct-22
They didn't say anything about a longer season. They mentioned if harvest rates go back down they'll be able to issue more tags. Maybe...

From: 8point
21-Oct-22
So will this reduce or increase the frequency of wounded game. Better to limit scopes to 4X. IMO

From: 8point
21-Oct-22
So will this reduce or increase the frequency of wounded game. Better to limit scopes to 4X. IMO

From: butcherboy
21-Oct-22
I think it’s a good thing. I saw way too many people shooting distances they should not have been on my son’s antelope muzzie hunt. If a scope is on a muzzleloader then I think it should be a fixed power like a 3X or 4X.

From: Treeline
21-Oct-22
Should open sights only and traditional era weapons.

Maybe need the same for archery…

21-Oct-22
Shooting beyond effective range is a person issue not weapon issue.

A guy with a selfbow shooting 30 yards when his effective range is 20.

Guy with a Hawken good to 100 shooting 150.

Guy with scoped ML good to 200 shooting 300.

Guy with 6.5 PRC and a Nightforce proficient to 600 tries a 900 yard shot.

From: nmwapiti
21-Oct-22
Plenty of hunting shows out there killing game with scoped muzzies at 500 yards or more. The recent Kuiu movie comes to mind. If you can pay 12k for a Gunwerks special, you can too.

From: HDE
21-Oct-22
A 3X scope will clarify the target at 100 yds. It does absolutely nothing for you as an advantage at 200 yds.

Scopes and even long range muzzleloaders aren't to blame. The worshipping of mega-trophy mule deer are. Using the same weapon for elk was just a bonus...

21-Oct-22
But using CO as an example…

ML season was set-aside for “settlement era” weapons. A T/C break-action ML with a full-bore bullet, powdered propellant and open sights may look a lot different, but its the functional/ballistic equivalent of an original. Uglier, but no deadlier.

Put a 2X scope on there and it’s NOT. But the older I get, the less opposed I am to permitting the use of non-electronic, non-magnifying optical sights for those who simply can no longer see their irons clearly.

From: Bowbender
22-Oct-22
Here in PA, we have the only flintlock season in the country. It runs 2-1/2 - 3 weeks after Christmas. Great season. The scoped in-liners whine and complain that they are unable to participate. Reason? Well, it’s a muzzleloader.

From: Bowbender
22-Oct-22
Double

From: LINK
22-Oct-22
I think it’s smart to do away with the scope completely. If they limited to 3x it would be like Colorado’s let off restriction on archery. When there’s not a scope allowed you have to be more brazen to cheat. Not many wardens going around checking let off or the power of a scope.

From: butcherboy
22-Oct-22
I agree with most of you that it’s not the weapon that causes someone to shoot beyond their effective range but the person. However, the problem is that because of the weapon it causes people to think they can shoot that far effectively. Maybe they can shooting off a bench or laying prone but in a hunting situation it gets increasingly more difficult. If a hunter needs to shoot that far with a muzzleloader then just shoot a rifle. Same goes for archery equipment, if you need to shoot that far then shoot a muzzleloader. I’m not a fan of shooting longer distances with a weapon that’s not intended for that. Some can and are really good at it but most hunters aren’t.

From: HDE
22-Oct-22
All weapons lose effectiveness at distance. Hitting a 3'x3' metal plate at 1,000 yds with 6.5 CM is all well and good, but only a fool would do that on a mature bull elk at 850 yds.

So, while on topic of going past the effective range of a weapon, I'm gonna "hate" on a certain celebrity bowhunter and professional archer a little. The man should NOT be making 100 yd shots on elk on public TV just because he can. He shouldn't even do it when hunting alone. Just because he can do it in the middle of the summer at a competition does not mean those same conditions exist on a target that can take one-half step and cause an otherwise perfect shot to be poor...

From: GDx
22-Oct-22
here in michigan we finally abandoned the muzzloader only season. we now basically have archery only and then a any weapon season. western states should do the same.

From: Bowboy
22-Oct-22
WY has been that way for years. You hunt archery then muzzleloader and other firearms are allowed. I think most states should have archery, muzzleloader, and then modern rifle.

From: timex
22-Oct-22
Can't speak for anyone but myself. When I was young I was an excellent shot with iron sights. These days not so much. I can either focus on the sights or the target but not both simultaneously. Inside of 50 yards isn't bad but beyond that one or the other is gonna be fuzzy. Diminishing the accuracy of a firearm in an effort to limit it's effectiveness is just plain ignorant imo.

22-Oct-22
Agreed GDX, also helps (doesn’t eliminate) with bow hunters being accidentally shot.

From: APauls
22-Oct-22
I’ve shot jackrabbits at 200 yards with a ruger 10/22 and iron sights on the somewhat regular. Iron sights are very proficient if you learn how to use them. Shooting an elk with a muzzleloader at 100-150 yards the limiting factor is not iron sights IMO. I see no problem with the change

From: HDE
22-Oct-22
^^^ that's because it doesn't affect you the same as it does others.

From: GDx
22-Oct-22
here in michigan we finally abandoned the muzzloader only season. we now basically have archery only and then a any weapon season. western states should do the same.

From: GDx
22-Oct-22
here in michigan we finally abandoned the muzzloader only season. we now basically have archery only and then a any weapon season. western states should do the same.

From: Buglmin
22-Oct-22
The muzzlelaoders of today are not the muzzleloaders five years ago. These new muzzleloaders are using 3 to 4 50 grain pellets, sabots, and they are extremeley accurate at long distance, in any ones hands. The effectiveness of these muzzle loaders will leave you speechless when you shoot them. New Mexico did the right thing.

As for a 2 power scope on a muzzle loader, yes, at 100 yards it makes it easier for you to see the target, but at 200 yards, because of the crosshairs and bullet drop, accuracy becomes a problem. But compare it to a 18 power scope, adjust for bullet drop with your turrets, and you're pinging 8" circles at 500 yards. New Mexico did a good thing.

From: HDE
22-Oct-22
@GDx - western states need to keep doing what works for us and michigan needs to keep doing what works best for it. The dynamics of each are completely different and you can't compare one to the other.

From: Red Sparky
23-Oct-22
So no scopes on muzzleloaders then no scopes on crossbows. Crossbows are allowed during muzzleloader season so they shouldn't be scoped either. When they make crossbows legal during archery season, watch it will happen, pins only like a vertical bow or instinctive shooting like a stick bow.

From: DanaC
23-Oct-22
"... western states need to keep doing what works for us and michigan needs to keep doing what works best for it. The dynamics of each are completely different and you can't compare one to the other. "

Same for every state. Herd management goals vary too much for any one-size-fits-all solution.

Here (MA) our seasons have gotten longer and equipment regs have loosened to meet the need to shoot 'enough' deer. My first M/L was a 56 cal smoothbore, before rifled barrels, in-lines and scopes were allowed. (I now carry a Savage ML-2.) Season was one week, now it's 2+. Other seasons have doubled as well.

From: HDE
23-Oct-22
^^^^ there isn't a need to shoot more mule deer, or antelope, or elk. Again, the dynamics are not the same.

From: JL
23-Oct-22
^^^^^that depends on where and what you're hunting out west. Last year in MT I had 3 antelope tags (1 ES and 2 doe). This year I have 3 muley B tags. As I recall...the license lady said you can get up to 5 whitetail B tags in the eastern units. There are also issues with too many elk on private land....so there's land owner tags. There is also a shoulder season on select private property. I don't believe those count against your regular elk tag. Some folks can get 2 or more elk tags. This is just in Montana.

My Michigan buddy was just in NM on some type of a landowner tag for elk and got a nice one a couple of days ago. I think he said 3 or 4 other guys on LO tags got one too.

My taxidermist hunts WY most years and said he gets a couple of buck tags on private property.

My point being is in some places out west (like back east) there are too many animals and they need to control the numbers.

From: HDE
23-Oct-22
^^^ and those population reduction hunts are heavily tailored to rifle. Those are needed because too many people won't stoop to the level of shooting a cow or a doe.

UT is a good example of what NOT to do...

From: nmwapiti
23-Oct-22
I'll second that one HDE. Having just experienced the UT archery elk hunt, UT is doing everything wrong for the average hunter. It's awesome for landowners, guides and the rich.

From: nchunter
23-Oct-22
So the majority of us 65 years and older who cant see iron sights are out of muzzleloader hunting. I hope this doesn't spread to other states since this is my second favorite hunting style. New Mexico and Colorado will only have young hunters hunting there and young hunters are getting to be pretty rare these days.

From: fishnride
23-Oct-22
I’m happy to hear that. Every once and a while a state agency actually manages wildlife. Should lead to a higher population in the long run and more bulls on the landscape for archers.

23-Oct-22
There's plenty of iron sights as easy or easier to use than a peep and pin on a bow. No scopes is no reason to stop muzzleloading if you enjoy it. I'm not 65 but old enough to miss what used to be fantastic vision. When I muzzleload its with a Cap and roundball and buckhorn sights.

Can I shoot accurately as far as I could with a scope? No, but for me, muzzleloading and bowhunting aren't about shooting far.

From: HDE
23-Oct-22
nchunter - UT is next. They just have to beat it to death in committee first. They actually started this talk earlier in the year. The hurdle they have to navigate first is wade-doyle-lemonback outfitters.

From: grizzly63
23-Oct-22
I just fabricated a .019 fiber optic front sight to go with a peep and its a vast improvement over regular iron sights. I do not know if it would be considered legal. Its not a long range thing but muzzle loaders are not supposed to be either.

From: timex
23-Oct-22
I had no interest in muzzleloaders until inlines came out. The first few years in VA they were iron sights only legal. I had peep sights on my knight mk 85 I believe it was. It was very accurate but Shots in low light were impossible. I eventually stopped muzzleloader hunting and just bow hunted during muzzleloader season. Many years later after scope's were legal I started muzzleloader hunting again.

The NM law is what it is. My old eyes and iron sights are not a good combination these days at long distance. Is the new law good or bad ????

From: ohiohunter
24-Oct-22
The change has less to do with harvest rates and more to do with the possibility of increased tags. They already pushed the season back a week to distance it from peak rut to reduce success. Several popular units are pushed back even further due to a youth hunt that typically shows 70%+ success. Personally I don’t mind the change for elk, but deer and antelope I am less in favor of. Open sights will not stop the less than ethical hunters from slinging lead, or the road hunters with the 7mm and their compliant muzzleloader.

I just went on a hunt in 6a, they do not need more tags. I’ve hunted 6c, they do not need more tags. Same goes for any unit I’ve hunted bow, gun or mz… there’s no shortage of hunters, as bow hunters surely you understand. NM has decent game, but lack quantity, we pale in comparison to our neighbors.. the few areas we do have plentiful game is financially guarded by the private land owners who often revive coveted tags and welfare for “damages” while their cattle over graze for pennies on the acre. This states has way more problems than scopes.

24-Oct-22
“Here in PA, we have the only flintlock season in the country. It runs 2-1/2 - 3 weeks after Christmas. Great season. The scoped in-liners whine and complain that they are unable to participate. ”

Was that one always after Christmas? CT ML season used to be flintlocks in the first half of November. Now it’s inlines AFTER 2 rounds of shotgun (to keep hunting pressure reasonable (and safe) on Public.

Now the statewide success rate for ML is low single digits. Under 5%.

It’s no the only state where what WAS a Privilege (set-aside for those game enough to take up the challenge) is now a participation trophy…. And one which nobody wants….

From: Buckdeer
24-Oct-22
Years ago they quit allowing scopes for the antelope hunts but then after a couple years went back to them

From: ohiohunter
24-Oct-22
Buckdeer, do you know why they allowed scopes again?

From: nmwapiti
24-Oct-22

nmwapiti's Link
Here's a link to a news article talking about the NM proposed change back in April.

From: nmwapiti
24-Oct-22

nmwapiti's Link
And the recent decision...

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