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Non-Resident vs. states?
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
Inshart 24-Nov-22
HDE 24-Nov-22
[email protected] 24-Nov-22
Grey Ghost 24-Nov-22
BOHNTR 24-Nov-22
Tilzbow 24-Nov-22
pav 24-Nov-22
nmwapiti 24-Nov-22
[email protected] 24-Nov-22
kentuckbowhnter 24-Nov-22
Tracker 24-Nov-22
Pyrannah 24-Nov-22
swede 24-Nov-22
JohnMC 24-Nov-22
[email protected] 24-Nov-22
DanaC 24-Nov-22
[email protected] 24-Nov-22
RT 24-Nov-22
HDE 24-Nov-22
greg simon 24-Nov-22
grasshopper 24-Nov-22
Mule Power 25-Nov-22
Mule Power 25-Nov-22
Tilzbow 25-Nov-22
Rocky D 25-Nov-22
Rgiesey 25-Nov-22
jdbbowhunter 25-Nov-22
RonP 25-Nov-22
goyt 25-Nov-22
Mule Power 25-Nov-22
PECO2 25-Nov-22
PECO2 25-Nov-22
DonVathome 25-Nov-22
Shuteye 25-Nov-22
keepemsharp 25-Nov-22
Tracker 25-Nov-22
Mule Power 25-Nov-22
Mule Power 25-Nov-22
Mpdh 25-Nov-22
RK 25-Nov-22
Tilzbow 25-Nov-22
Brotsky 25-Nov-22
redneck hunter 25-Nov-22
Mule Power 25-Nov-22
JohnMC 25-Nov-22
Inshart 25-Nov-22
Shuteye 25-Nov-22
Nick Muche 25-Nov-22
Beendare 25-Nov-22
HDE 25-Nov-22
Nick Muche 25-Nov-22
Mule Power 25-Nov-22
Ziek 25-Nov-22
Ambush 25-Nov-22
Nick Muche 25-Nov-22
Mule Power 25-Nov-22
Nick Muche 25-Nov-22
JohnMC 25-Nov-22
cnelk 25-Nov-22
BOHNTR 25-Nov-22
BOHNTR 25-Nov-22
wyobullshooter 25-Nov-22
Tilzbow 25-Nov-22
Mule Power 25-Nov-22
Nick Muche 25-Nov-22
Mule Power 26-Nov-22
Nick Muche 26-Nov-22
Mule Power 26-Nov-22
Nick Muche 26-Nov-22
Franzen 26-Nov-22
Lost Arra 26-Nov-22
WV Mountaineer 26-Nov-22
PECO2 26-Nov-22
Ziek 26-Nov-22
Ollie 26-Nov-22
Missouribreaks 26-Nov-22
WhattheFOC 26-Nov-22
WV Mountaineer 26-Nov-22
Orion 26-Nov-22
WhattheFOC 26-Nov-22
PECO2 26-Nov-22
Bou'bound 26-Nov-22
WhattheFOC 26-Nov-22
DanaC 27-Nov-22
Franzen 27-Nov-22
JSW 27-Nov-22
Ziek 27-Nov-22
JayZ 28-Nov-22
Mad Trapper 28-Nov-22
Buckdeer 28-Nov-22
goelk 28-Nov-22
Lost Arra 28-Nov-22
bowyer45 28-Nov-22
Missouribreaks 28-Nov-22
SteveD 28-Nov-22
Nick Muche 01-Dec-22
PECO2 02-Dec-22
DanaC 03-Dec-22
Rocky D 03-Dec-22
Rocky D 03-Dec-22
KSflatlander 03-Dec-22
HDE 03-Dec-22
Missouribreaks 03-Dec-22
DanaC 03-Dec-22
Rocky D 03-Dec-22
808bowhunter 03-Dec-22
azelkhntr 03-Dec-22
Zim 04-Dec-22
Matt 04-Dec-22
RD in WI 05-Dec-22
Lost Arra 05-Dec-22
PECO2 05-Dec-22
wytex 05-Dec-22
llamapacker 05-Dec-22
Zim 06-Dec-22
Jaquomo 06-Dec-22
wyobullshooter 06-Dec-22
Zim 06-Dec-22
Zim 07-Dec-22
Tilzbow 07-Dec-22
From: Inshart
24-Nov-22
Just wondering if there is anything that we (non-resident) big game hunters can do to put pressure on the powers-that-be that control the cost of the tags/licenses.

Of course, for me, Wyoming is the first to come to mind, I've got 3 points and am pretty sure I won't be able to draw a general in 23? With all the proposed and possible changes - unfortunately I'll most likely be done in WY - I just don't want to get into the point game.

I know it's been mentioned and talked about many, many times ---- but what if we put pressure on the organizations that we support to either step up to the plate or loose our support.

The first organization that comes to mind is the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. They have clout and the legal representation to perhaps make an impact. If say 1,000 or even 3,000 members let them know - either step up and have some input or loose us as members. Don't get me wrong - RMEF is a GREAT organization that has done unbelievable things for the betterment of elk and elk hunting. And I've been a member since about 1993, but for me, it's time SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE! SOMETHING HAS TO CHANGE!

The organizations that control the purse strings don't really give a rip. Yeah, sure they have "public impute" and voice your opinions on their 5 year plans, etc., etc.. None of which has any effect at all - at least that is how it appears.

And the write to your congressman / senators / legislatures -- does that really make a difference? I really don't know.

It appears that the Outfitters associations have the money and clout to get pretty much what they want. Is there any way to put some pressure on them, other than quit using their services? I get it, the rich don't care and will continue to use them, Irregardless of what others do.

I would be very interested in hearing what other ideas non-residents may have.

From: HDE
24-Nov-22
When a state has the literal right to discriminate against a non resident relative to hunting and fishing license fees, there really nothing non residents can do.

All of these organizations are heavily supported by residents of their respective states. By non residents pressuring them to actively persue license fees in other states, those same non residents in those states are pushing them on license fees in a resident's home state.

24-Nov-22
It's a tough one. Maybe start by lobbying Minnesota to open even a small share of its elk licenses to nonresidents.

I hate how expensive hunting has become but it's a spending issue with agencies and as long as the market supports it, it's not likely to change.

From: Grey Ghost
24-Nov-22
Non residents are guests to the states they hunt. States make the rules on their wildlife resources. As it should be. If you want resident privileges, move there.

Matt

From: BOHNTR
24-Nov-22
I personally have no problem what states charge for R/NR tags. It’s their state and resource. We have a choice to pay it or not to pay it.

Having said that, I do understand your view on the differences between resident and NR rates, which seem to be all over the place depending on the state. I guess it would be convenient if states were more ‘consistent’ in price. Example: a rule like ‘NR tags/license cannot cost more than 10x (or whatever number) the cost of a resident tag/license.’ But, honestly, I think it’s an unrealistic dream.

From: Tilzbow
24-Nov-22
If non-resident fees go down, resident fees have to go up. That’s not something residents are going to support.

I’m also fine with difference non-resident price structures. An elk tag for Colorado isn’t the same as an elk for AZ and so on. Let supply and demand dictate prices.

From: pav
24-Nov-22
Not a fan of non-resident pricing, but grateful for non-resident bowhunting opportunities. IMO, only options are pay to play or stay home. Personally, I will continue to pay the fees as long as I'm physically able to participate.

From: nmwapiti
24-Nov-22
I don't know what we could do. I'm definitely with the crowd that is feeling the pinch of price increases and dropping opportunity. The people making the decisions have total loyalty to residents. They use us to offset the costs, that's it. Outfitters ironically want lots of us, but only at their high prices. Lose, lose deal for average NRs.

24-Nov-22
We are all residents and nonresidents.

24-Nov-22
There is nothing you can do.

From: Tracker
24-Nov-22
Lobby your Senator and Congressman to take control of all Federal Lands as it relates to hunting. Create a Federal Hunting license/tag system that is the same for all.

From: Pyrannah
24-Nov-22
what's going on with wyo and the non res tags?

From: swede
24-Nov-22
The states want more and more money for their wildlife management people and programs. Non-residents don't have a vote, so they get to pick up the tab.

From: JohnMC
24-Nov-22
To many non residents hunting the west as it is. CO has more non resident archery elk hunters than residents. That is not fair the residents. If that happen it what ever state you live in you would throw a fit and rightfully so. Supply and demand dictates if you want to hunt elk and premium deer states you either are going to pay more, hunt less often, or both.

24-Nov-22
The cheapest way to go on a western elk hunt is to live in the midwest or south and make the trip. It's expensive to live out here.

From: DanaC
24-Nov-22
"Supply and demand dictates..."

Exactly. Which is why supporting conservation groups (like RMEF) so they can hopefully improve habitat, access, etc. matters. Increasing the 'supply' of hunt-able animals and land access is vital. Otherwise it tends toward being a rich man's game only.

24-Nov-22
Lets see, I have hunted Arizona as a non resident and they just placed a cap on non resident deer hunters.; I pay the price. I hunt Nebraska for deer and turkeys as a non resident and they just placed a cap on nonresident deer and turkey hunters; I pay the price. I have hunted Kansas as a non resident and their fee to hunt deer is over $500 and they limited non resident by draw.; I pay the price. If I hunted all western states there is a limit to the number of license sold to nonresidents. The price of admission is on the rise in all states, ie, the cost of doing business and yes, resident hunter from all states, will complain about the number of nonresident and over crowding. Pay the price or do not hunt as a non resident.

From: RT
24-Nov-22
Do 500 dollar deer taste better than 50 dollar deer?

From: HDE
24-Nov-22
"Supply and demand dictates..."

Not really. States cannot simply adjust the number of tags based on the quantity demanded and at a price to meet a market equilibrium point. Herd health dictates that.

There will always be the necessary number to meet the quota of hunters for the price they set, it just may not be you, me, or the guy down the street.

From: greg simon
24-Nov-22
Yes RT, they do.

From: grasshopper
24-Nov-22
The easiest thing to change is your income. Sure makes it is easier to hunt if you have the funds.

Get a side hustle or or a better income from your main income source.

If you are self employed- raise your rates-everyone else has.

From: Mule Power
25-Nov-22
The only kind of “pressure” that could even get their attention is a substantial drop in revenue due to a boycott of licenses. Do you think that will ever realistically happen? I don’t. At 57 skipping a year of elk hunting to see if everyone else skips that year too AND see how the state reacts doesn’t seem like a good idea.

I feel your pain but to me it seems as hopeless as holding back the hands of time. But since I do hold onto dreams of the next American revolution I do imagine what it would be like to watch a state game agency react to losing 45 million bucks. Lol It would be worth skipping a year to see! They’d go belly up overnight!

From: Mule Power
25-Nov-22
Grasshopper nailed it! Much better idea. Guaranteed results.

From: Tilzbow
25-Nov-22
Losing 45 million???? That’d be 90,000 tags and licenses at an average of $500 per set. Which state is selling that many non-resident tags?

From: Rocky D
25-Nov-22
“ Pay the price or do not hunt as a non resident.”

I was always glad to pay the price if I drew the tag!

From: Rgiesey
25-Nov-22
I’m a non resident of most of the states I hunt. Resident of Wyoming. To have the good hunting we have here the numbers have to be controlled. More hunters in a lot of states than we have residents. Control of the numbers makes the hunting good. The costs are a different story. Don’t believe the government spends our money wisely. Protested Iowa when they started charging 50$ for a preference point. Pay the price or don’t go.

From: jdbbowhunter
25-Nov-22
If you want to hunt out of state you can make it happen. Work extra save money for a hunt you want. Don't complain because there isn't enough tags or it's too expensive. Life is full of disappointment, get over it.

From: RonP
25-Nov-22
i don't have too much of an issue with the cost or chances of drawing tags, although many have or will get priced out especially if you have kids.

my issue is with the requirement to use an outfitter in wilderness areas of wyoming. that really pi$$es me off. a hiker or backpacker can enter these areas but as a hunter, i need to hire a guide or outfitter. BS.

i'm glad i am nearing the end of my hunting career.

From: goyt
25-Nov-22
I have a bigger issue with the costs of applying than I do with the tag costs. When a license is required to apply and then application fees and maybe point fees, we are often paying over $200 for a very slight chance of drawing or no chance for that year and a hope and a pray for the future. IMO some of the states are now financing hunting programs with NR fees and the few NR tags are incidental.

From: Mule Power
25-Nov-22

Mule Power's Link
Rgiesey…. There is a set number of licenses available. That controls hunter numbers. Regardless of if they were free there would be the same number of hunters.

Tilzbow my bad…. That’s ALL license sales AND revenue from preference points not just elk. It also includes resident sales. Here’s an interesting chart showing license sales. Non res totals are still at 43 mil while residents bring in only 9. It would still be impossible to balance the budget without us and that’s the only pressure that would get their attention. Elk licenses , not counting preference points is 8 million or nearly 20% which is pretty substantial.

All the bitching in the world will accomplish nothing even if it’s done in a professional manner by organized groups.

From: PECO2
25-Nov-22
"Do 500 dollar deer taste better than 50 dollar deer?" I would argue that a midwest farmland whitetail taste better than a sagebrush eating Colorado mountain mule deer. Not $450 better though. Some day I will move out of Colorado to a state that has very few nonresident hunters, and I can just buy deer tags over the counter every year. I will quickly forget about all this tag draw drama.

From: PECO2
25-Nov-22
"There is a set number of licenses available. That controls hunter numbers." Not for elk in Colorado

From: DonVathome
25-Nov-22
There is very little we NR can do. WY increased sheep poit fees from $7 to $100 overnight. Apps dropped in half. WY makes 7 times as much money for half the work. The demand is to high. To many NR will pay. Dropping out makes no difference, states just raise NR fees to cover it. It is frustrating. I am very very lucky - I am 51 and have drawn so many good tags and had many unbelievable experiences. If I started now it would cost 5 times as much for 1/4 the tags. Literally.

It is tough. I get the game is managed by states, I want it that way. That said 90% (my estimate) of NR public elk hunting is on national forest. We pay 5x-10x as much as a resident and get 1/10 the tags to hunt national forest. I do not think that is right.

I am significantly cutting back every year on may apps and dropping states. I never thought I would do that. It is one of the few things I can do. I do give comments when people post links here - that is helpful, thanks to those who share that info.

WY will get sued, no doubt. That might temporarily scare them.

Look up an implied contract, it is clear WY had one with NR and violated it. This is not a grey area, iffy - it is very clear they had an implied contract with NR and broke it. I am out for sheep in WY and will draw moose soon. Even if I am not on the game I will contribute to the lawsuit against WY G&F. And I am not talking $100. A lot more. I love hunting WY and will continue to do so but what they did and are doing is wrong, ethically and legally.

From: Shuteye
25-Nov-22
I think Maryland and Delaware have great laws on licenses. I worked in a bow shop that sold hunting licenses. I would see the drivers license and charge them what their state charges Marylanders. Same in Delaware. It was all in the computer so it was easy. I guess it is still the same since I haven't worked since I retired. BTW, Maryland had the highest rate of deer kills with bow and arrow of any state. If you could shoot well you would most always get your deer. The limit was as many as you wanted to shoot. It is still 15 deer and that is plenty.

From: keepemsharp
25-Nov-22
What really burns you is the fact that in some states you pay huge NR fees to hunt federal land that YOU own.

From: Tracker
25-Nov-22
Shuteye has a point on fees. However I live in Maryland and it is a great place to hunt. But in all my days in the field I have never seen a WY, UT, CO, NM, or AZ tag. I am not happy that I am getting old and my days afield are dwindling. However I do look back at $50 mule deer tags and $150 ELK tags with joy. Now if my 22 NR deer points will just get me that 66 3rd season I'd be happy. lol

From: Mule Power
25-Nov-22
Peco myself and Rgiesey are talking Wyoming which is where he’s from. And actually it’s where the OP is mainly referring too.

You couldn’t give me a free Colorado otc elk tag.

From: Mule Power
25-Nov-22
Keepemsharp… keep it straight. You don’t pay to camp hike etc on your land. You pay to pursue the state’s wildlife. You can hunt for free if you want…. with a camera. But if you want to take one home with you that’s when ya gotta pay.

From: Mpdh
25-Nov-22
The price of every single thing is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it, and there seems to be no shortage of hunters willing to pay these prices.

From: RK
25-Nov-22
Mpdh

Nailed it. And there are lots of hunters willing to pay more than where it stands right now. Basically no stopping it at this point. Pretty much like all things these days

From: Tilzbow
25-Nov-22
Mule Power,

Thanks for the data, it’s very telling and interesting. It’d be nice to see the number of tags sold to residents vs non-residents and I know I could look it up but the money is really what matters. I’d like to see the same for other states but not enough to look for it….

For those few still complaining about not being able to pay resident fees and/or freely hunt on federal lands there’s a federal law that wildlife is owned by individual states and unless a species is threatened or endangered the state’s have sole responsibility for managing the wildlife within their borders. Other than endangered and threatened there are a few other exceptions such as waterfowl (impacted by treaties between Canada and US, etc) but for the sake of this discussion the majority of the four legged creatures we hunt are managed by individual states. If you really want the feds involved think about wolves and grizzly bears and ask yourself how that’s working out. Lastly, as an example, in my home state of NV we have more wild sheep than any other state in the lower 48 and this is largely due to local volunteer organizations such as NBU and Fraternity of the Desert Bighorn that raise money through banquets and other means to be used for management such as transplants plus many resident members volunteer their time several times each year for improvement projects such as building and maintaining big game guzzlers. My point being, residents have more skin in the game for their home state.

I fill the pain as much as the next guy! I’m on year 19 of applying in AZ and UT and still haven’t drawn a tag in either state. Heck, this year I couldn’t even draw a NV archery bull tag with 11 points or for that matter a cow tag with 8 bonus, obviously I applied for 10 and 7 years before this year, so even as a resident I fill the pain. There simply aren’t enough animals to satisfy the demand and our wild horses and drought are making it worse. I tried to look up the odds of drawing a cow tag with 8 points but there’s no one that applied with more than 6 points which either means I’m the only resident who’s applied 8 years without drawing or there are others who’ve built 8 or more points and are holding them. The only really good non-resident tag I’ve drawn was a MT Bull moose tag in what was once the best unit in the state and I drew that with only 6 points. Unfortunately there were so many wolves around we had a hard time calling in a bull without wolves messing up the setup.

From: Brotsky
25-Nov-22
There's a pricing problem? If there was a problem, there wouldn't be record demand now would there? A pricing problem may exist for a person individually, but that's an expendable income problem as opposed to a pricing problem. I have come to terms with the fact that some states don't make sense for me financially. I just keep chasing the ones that do.

25-Nov-22
I don't care what they charge. I don't care how the draws and points work. If it worth it to me, I'll pay and play. Just don't bitch cause I'm in the state hunting.

From: Mule Power
25-Nov-22
No kidding Redneck. You’d think we might get a warm welcome and a hug. Maybe even a free load of firewood instead of thanks for the millions of dollars now go away.

To be fair not all residents feel that way. There are some damn good people no matter where you go.

From: JohnMC
25-Nov-22
As a resident of CO I have no animosity towards any one that comes here to hunt. I'll help anyone I can resident or non residents. I just shared some info with someone that PMed me this morning from out of state. I have meet non resident in the mountains and showed them around after they messaged me on here.

My problem is mostly the state of CO unwillingness to significantly limit the number of elk tags it sale to non-residents. I really don't care if non resident pay less or pay double. People should have any opportunity to have decent hunt in their state of residency. When I am crowded anywhere I go and most of those people are from out of state I want to see some thing change. That goes for all 50 states you should be able to have good hunting opportunities before anyone else in your home state. Come hunt, I hope you have a great time and kill a giant bull. But quit whining about how it is not fair to non residents it is BS.

From: Inshart
25-Nov-22
Thanks for all the comments - kind of what I expected. I was hoping for some kind of "new", feasible idea.

I'm in the same boat as the rest of the elk fanatics. When we pack up camp and pull out on the road to head for home, that's when I begin thinking about next year. So yes, I'll keep paying as long as I'm physically able to chase the elk.

From: Shuteye
25-Nov-22
I can hunt Montana any time I want. I have relatives on an Indian reservation. Ha Ha.

From: Nick Muche
25-Nov-22
Move to where you want to hunt and become a resident. Problem solved, or not, depending on how serious you are.

From: Beendare
25-Nov-22
Its a pipe dream.....these states know they have non Res by the balls....

Things are only getting worse for Non Res hunters....recent reg changes have shown that.

From: HDE
25-Nov-22
Nick - if your profession allows it, sure. Not all professions allow you to live wherever you want.

From: Nick Muche
25-Nov-22
Find a new one

From: Mule Power
25-Nov-22
Really Nick. That’s not always a realistic plan for many reasons. Work, family with special needs etc. What if I want to hunt Wyoming and Montana and Alaska AND Pa? Lol

From: Ziek
25-Nov-22
"Things are only getting worse for Non Res hunters...."

They're getting worse for ALL hunters. And as long as the human population continues to grow, they will continue to get worse. Get used to it.

From: Ambush
25-Nov-22
I’m seriously considering become Homeless. I would be from the Nomadic Tribe of the Homeless Nation and go where and when I please. Probably just go back and forth like the geese, eating and shitting wherever I want.

From: Nick Muche
25-Nov-22
Then it’s not a priority Joe.

From: Mule Power
25-Nov-22
That’s not necessarily true buddy. You know me well enough to know that my elk hunting IS a priority. I drew a Wyoming general elk tag 11 years in a row and I already know I’ll draw number 12 next year. That’s not easy to pull off. But I’m a union carpenter and there’s not even a union out west. My mother has Alzheimers really bad and my step dad is 81 and taking care of her. No way I could move 2000 miles away regardless of how much I prioritize my hunting. You’ll see some day young man.

I saw Steph’s post on Facebook yesterday. Congrats on the move back north.

From: Nick Muche
25-Nov-22
Everyone has the ability to make choices or sacrifices. Either they do or do not.

From: JohnMC
25-Nov-22
NIck is right and I don't think he saying it should be a priority. Just that you have to pick what is most important to you. I moved to CO after college and a big part of that was hunting opportunity. I know there are places I could live that would give me better hunting opportunities. However that is not my top priority at this point in my life. Point is there trade off to almost anything you choose to do. You get to decide which are the most important to you. But if that has you living somewhere there is no elk hunting, accept the life you choose and don't cry about cost of elk tag or that it might take years before you get that dream tag a resident can get a lot more often. I'd love to hunt dall and stone sheep but not enough to pay the cost to do or to move to Alaska. It is choice I have made and I am cool with it.

From: cnelk
25-Nov-22
Living in Colorado I still hunt out of state (some years multiple states) as a NonRes each and every year. That’s a choice I make and plan for it.

From: BOHNTR
25-Nov-22
I definitely understand where Nick is coming from. I wanted to increase my chances at drawing AZ tags…..so I retired and moved there 4 years ago. As a resident, I’ve now drawn two bull tags, an antelope tag, a few draw deer tags, Turkey tags, and every year Javelina tags. It was a good move for me.

From: BOHNTR
25-Nov-22
Double

25-Nov-22
I also agree 100% with Nick. Just another one of those life choices everyone has to make based on their individual priorities. Just because it may be the right choice for one certainly doesn’t make it right choice for anyone else. I made some sacrifices to remain in Wyoming and I’ve never regretted it for a second.

From: Tilzbow
25-Nov-22
Now that I’m retired if could ever burn my resident NV points I’d probably move to AZ. It’d solve two problems; after becoming an official resident I’d immediately draw some really good tags and it’d stop all my old injuries from hurting when the weather here turns cold. The trade off would be state income taxes… Always a trade off….

From: Mule Power
25-Nov-22
We all have priorities. This forum has lots of hardcore hunters. As we get older priorities change. But family should always come first. Right behind financial suicide. You can prioritize hunting without packing up your family and moving. Well… unless you’re young have no kids and your parents are alive and well.

From: Nick Muche
25-Nov-22
Joe, don’t be a sour puss and add barriers to entry because your specific situation doesn’t fit the mold perfectly to do what a lot of people have. Many have prioritized things in life to be happy, and each comes with sacrifice in one way or another. Some are willing, some are not, and that’s ok.

NR hunting prices will continue to rise, complain about it, pay for it, quit hunting out of state, or find a way to be a resident in the place you dream about every day until you’re there in the fall.

From: Mule Power
26-Nov-22
Life changes perspectives and priorities. Me a sour puss? You can’t be serious. I hunt out of state at will. Draw offs don’t matter to me. Neither does the price tag. I used to think like you do. Not anymore but I still prioritize my hunting and I make it happen.

From: Nick Muche
26-Nov-22
Sour to the idea of someone moving to a state they love to hunt but complain about NR prices, certainly not sour to paying and hunting the places you love. You weren’t complaining about the constant price increases, no need to, because we all know that will continue no matter how much people dislike it.

From: Mule Power
26-Nov-22
I have enough friends and family where I hunt that establishing residency would be easy. I’ve never complained about cost. I’ve also defended residents and their right to good hunting and reasonable prices where they live. My point was simply that it’s not realistic to suggest that everyone and anyone can sell their house, pack up their life, walk away from their career, and move. Have you considered the fact that their spouse might also have priorities?

From: Nick Muche
26-Nov-22
Not everyone can, or should… but those that desire to, will and do. Many have…. Those that don’t, will not, and by and large, they also complain about the cost to come to another’s home state to hunt their game.

From: Franzen
26-Nov-22
Anyone can sell their house... it may not be worth anything, but they can sell. Anyone can pack up their life... Walking away from a career can easily be done. Might one or all of these moves be selfish or idiotic? Sure. Lots of people have even walked away from a spouse to hunt; that doesn't make it right.

At the end of the day though, I'm simply amazed at the amount of people that don't have an understanding of the NA concept. Either that, or they choose to ignore it based on their own selfish motives. Our history is rooted in opportunity. Where would a lot of us be with half or more of our hunting opportunity taken away? Most would probably find a way to make it enjoyable for them still, but something to consider when we are talking about how we don't care that opportunity for others being reduced is no big deal.

From: Lost Arra
26-Nov-22
As the owner of a 13 year old vehicle, I'm more concerned about the current pricing of new trucks which is over twice the price of my first house. The cost of my non-res elk tag is chump change compared to truck costs.

26-Nov-22
I’m not going to complain about the tag costs of being a NR. In the scheme of things, it’s cheap. I go off shore and surf fishing every year. In comparison, hunting tags are very cheap. So, to me it’s not a price problem. It’s an opportunity problem.

Having fewer tags and opportunity’s granted to the NR hunter is becoming a huge issue. You can think wolves and the likes of organizations like The BHA for that. “Conservation” has never been the preservation they preach. Nor has any sustainable wildlife management plan that puts humans last in line on the predator scale. That’s the problem. And, people believe that men will kill every predator on the planet if not protected. Which is absurd.

Hunting is under attack. It has been for a long while. And the tools used to cause these problems are emotionally motivated by the entire population. Yet, only a fraction pays for it.

Revenue is the issue that is also being affected by less opportunity. And, since hunters and fishermen lay the bill, while all others who utilize the land and the resource for their entertainment, get a free ride. Is that fair? Does it make sense? Nope.

It could be fixed so easily. If Every state would institute a .01 tax on everything purchased in that state, all those affected by resource man agent in any state, pays their share. It’s not logical to state non hunters as not responsible for resource revenue procurement. They live there. They use the same land we hunters and fisherman use. Yet, they pay no excise tax or stamp usage that we have to pay.

Wolla. Revenue fixed. Now, we gotta figure out how to kill more cats, bears, and wolves to put human hunters at the Alex of population management. Then the good ole days will come back.

From: PECO2
26-Nov-22
"As the owner of a 13 year old vehicle" How many miles?

From: Ziek
26-Nov-22
"Where would a lot of us be with half or more of our hunting opportunity taken away?"

Where we are right now. It's already happened. Opportunity is lost every time they build more houses where we used to hunt. More shopping centers where we used to hunt. More hospitals, commercial buildings/warehouses where we used to hunt. When hunters and other recreation users move to the remaining places that are still open to them become over crowded, we loose opportunity. The problem is TOO MANY PEOPLE! That will never be addressed, so get used to it. Every other "solution" is putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

From: Ollie
26-Nov-22
You clearly have not yet grasped how the world works. Life is not fair. I too would like to buy a relatively inexpensive archery elk tag and hunt an area not overrun with others chasing the same dream. It’s not going to happen.

26-Nov-22
Hunting out of state these days is largely for recreation. If you cannot afford it, then find alternative sources of excitement.

From: WhattheFOC
26-Nov-22
Nick, do you regret moving to AK for resident status … when you could have moved to Minnesota to accomplish the same thing??

26-Nov-22
There are millions and millions of acres of unhunted public land in this country. Too many people aren’t the problem. It’s too many people using the same land.

We all likely take expensive family vacations, spend a lot of money on things we don’t prioritize as important as hunting, etc…. But, we don’t consider a helicopter drop into landlocked public land as feasible. Or, won’t go to Alaska because it’s too expensive to fly into our hunting dreams.

Priority’s.

From: Orion
26-Nov-22
Dang WhattheFOC didn't realize Minnesota had Musk Ox, Dall Sheep, Caribou, Grizzly bears, moose, blacktail, etc.

From: WhattheFOC
26-Nov-22
Inside joke Orion … Nick will get it.

From: PECO2
26-Nov-22
I have lived in Minnesota and have been to Alaska. They are not the same.

From: Bou'bound
26-Nov-22
Minnesota does not have DIY brown bear hunts. That makes it a non-starter for me regardless of how many free arrows may be available.

From: WhattheFOC
26-Nov-22
Bou wins!!

From: DanaC
27-Nov-22
"There are millions and millions of acres of unhunted public land in this country."

WV, there's a lot of public land round here that maybe sees a few guys during gun season. Some of it is impassible rocky hillsides, some is just poorly managed and doesn't hold much game. Some is just access-poor to an aging hunting population. I know a few spots where I might see a good deer but I'd kill myself getting it out. Some of the easier spots are stocked with pheasants and hunted hard, drives the deer onto adjacent private land. (Much of which is posted tighter than frog arse...)

From: Franzen
27-Nov-22
Unfortunately Ziek, you missed the point. You had the experience of loads of opportunity if you chose to take advantage of it. Getting that opportunity reduced in your twilight doesn't really mean much as far as the future goes. For a lot of reasons the younger generations will never have that, but such is the cycle. Is "too many people" one of them? It's on the list, but certainly not the biggest issue we've got.

From: JSW
27-Nov-22
#1 No, there is nothing NR can do to change this trend. Too many people are happy to pay the price for the increidible opportunities that are available.

#2 Your suggestion of quitting the various organizations that are our only real hope of maintaining any hunting opportunity at all really saddens me.

RMEF, NRA, P&Y are all dealing with this mentality. "You don't support exactly, to the letter, what I want you to support so I'm just going to show you. I'll just quit." Now what? Without your support they no longer have the funds to do even minimal work. "Why isn't (insert NGO here) not doing more to help our cause"?? That anwser is simple. We don't give them enough support to do what needs done.

I've always been happy to support any state that will allow me the opportunity to hunt the animals owned by the citizens of that state. You are not being allowed to hunt something on Federal land that you think you own. You are being allowed to hunt a game animal owned by the citizens of that state. Hence, the state is allowed to set the price and the rules.

From: Ziek
27-Nov-22
"You are being allowed to hunt a game animal owned by the citizens of that state."

Technically, that is not true. Neither the citizens of the state nor the state "own" the wildlife. They have jurisdiction to manage the wildlife, as differentiated from most countries that retain that control on a national level.

From: JayZ
28-Nov-22
I'm with Muche on this one. If you don't like the non-resident rules the state has move there. I get it, it may not be feasible to most, but the reality is a non-resident shouldn't have a say in how a state manages the wildlife or opportunity. Just be thankful for what you get.

I know several people, myself included, who moved to Alaska just to take advantage of the opportunities afforded to residents there. Every one of us made sacrifices to make that happen. I'd love for Alaska to go to a draw for NR sheep, goat, and grizz/brownies and get rid of the guide requirement, however, the guide lobby won't allow that to happen. I'm OK with that.

Quitting a conservation organization over something like this is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

From: Mad Trapper
28-Nov-22
I generally agree with JSW. I wish our conservation organizations had more influence though. The only way that they get it, is if more of us support them. My 2 cents.

From: Buckdeer
28-Nov-22
Just part of the game,I agree WY has gone overboard but states like Iowa and NM is why they are still great hunting states where states like Kansas seem to continue to raise numbers of permits given out to NR.

From: goelk
28-Nov-22
ziek As a public resource, wildlife belongs to the state of Colorado, to all citizens. Its also manage and protected by CPW

From: Lost Arra
28-Nov-22
Peco2 >>"As the owner of a 13 year old vehicle" How many miles?<< Approaching 200k Hunting and 20 mile round trip work commute only. I'm now retired. I've actually decided to not replace it and keep buying nr elk tags.

From: bowyer45
28-Nov-22
I hate to say it but we are 50 years too late for the bargain hunts. Just too many hunters for the resource. I can't believe how the moose hunting opportunities have went away. Again way too much demand for the available resource. Stop promoting hunting! Elk the same!

28-Nov-22
I thought we needed to recruit more hunters.

From: SteveD
28-Nov-22
Hunting has become a tool for greed and hate, arrogance ,used to be a character builder and taught one self reliance and sharing ,not anymore in the slightest. The direction it's gone is not worth saving anymore. Its a Titanic and the iceberg has been hit.

From: Nick Muche
01-Dec-22
^^Sad how true this has become…

From: PECO2
02-Dec-22
"The direction it's gone is not worth saving anymore. " Can we turn it around and take it back?

From: DanaC
03-Dec-22
Bowyer45, I would edit your statement that "we are 50 years too late for the bargain hunts" to include "for critters like elk and moose." Deer hunts are still cheap, likewise good bears can be hunted in many places at a decent price. But everyone wants huge 6x6 elk and palmated bulls.

Locally I can add a bear tag for $10, hunt them for two months, and there are some good ones around. (Saw a pic of one that dressed over 500 pounds, taken by a first-year archer a few weeks ago.)

Deer ain't easy, but check out the 'Have you seen...' thread over on the Mass. forum.

From: Rocky D
03-Dec-22

From: Rocky D
03-Dec-22
First off, I agree with everything that Nick has posted. Great things occur for the brave and the bold! Nick understands the laws of cause and effect and the his life is based on the choices that he makes!

Most people have to get a kitchen pass to nevertheless get their wife to become part of the journey.

I know several bowhunters who got divorces because their obsession with hunting!

Most people choose safety and security over pursuing their dreams and then they sit back and wish that they would have made different choices.

DanaC, how many years have you applied for a Maine or New Hampshire moose tag.

There are still great hunts out there!

I and many others are more capable of going on many guided huns than we were 1970-90.

Sure things can be blamed but whatever animal reaches iconic status then those are the first to see prices soar.

If that is true then aren’t hunters partly to blame.

Let let’s look at a DIY moose hunt in Alaska which will run between $6-10K.

If you were an outfitter what would be your actual cost to put on a sheep hunt that provided relocation flights?

I bought a new Subaru in 1983 for $6500 and today I would pay around $32K for the same car.

Secondly, this post makes as much sense as most of the political threads!

Don’t covet what your neighbors have unless you’re willing do what he did to achieve it!

Our society is rampant with this attitude and everyone is a victim.

My question is why do you think that you deserve to hunt Dall Sheep, grizzly bear, and elk now that you can afford the price that it was forty years ago?

Regardless of what we believe the good old days are now because there’s no go back.

Bottom line is the ones doing the most bitching now couldn’t afford the hunts back then!

From: KSflatlander
03-Dec-22
SteveD- not in my camp. The guys I hunt with truly celebrate in the accomplishments of each other. Not one of us measures a successful hunt in punched tags. We hunt 3 species every year on private property (verbal permission; no money exchange) and public grounds in other states. We don’t kill every year but have a ton of fun spending relatively little money. It doesn’t have to be all greed and hate.

Yes, I agree there is increasing demand on a resource but don’t fall into the trap. It’s not the animal I’m after but the journey. Sounds like corney BS but it’s how I feel.

And it’s worth passing on to others who are interested.

From: HDE
03-Dec-22
"Find a new one"

Sorry Nick, that's about as an out of touch with reality response as anyone could give. Naive really...

03-Dec-22
I think Nick Muche is right on. Nobody deserves a free ride, get out there and make things happen, that is how life works. Keep WOKE out of hunting.

From: DanaC
03-Dec-22
" DanaC, how many years have you applied for a Maine or New Hampshire moose tag. "

Never did, never had any interest in shooting one. Have friends who head to northeast Canada for caribou every year. Moose up there too.

From: Rocky D
03-Dec-22
“ Never did, never had any interest in shooting one. Have friends who head to northeast Canada for caribou every year. Moose up there too.”

DanaC, that was a rhetorical question even though it was based on an assumption!

The point is many people complain about things that they never intended to do or they figure out later that they wished that they would have done so when they were capable of doing so.

A lot of young guys on this forum are out there making it happen by changing where they live, moving away from friends, families, and creating new lives in places with an abundance opportunities.

From: 808bowhunter
03-Dec-22
When I started hunting elk as a NR no matter where I went, people around me couldn’t believe how much I spent for a tag. Thought I must be rich. These same people were at the bar every weekend and going out to restaurants all the time. Stuff isn’t cheap in Hawaii. Once i explained this to them, it opened their eyes a tiny bit. But like others said, if hunting is priority, make changes to make it happen. I got a career that I can take the month of September off(if the wife let!) and I made sure my kids were born in the spring. Priorities

From: azelkhntr
03-Dec-22
The RMEF is strictly apolitical. They do not and will not get involved in anyway.

From: Zim
04-Dec-22
At 63, I feel lucky to have experienced more than my share of premium DIY NR hunts the last 26 years. The wheels are now falling off more each year, and it’s getting less enjoyable. But, I have the preference points to draw premium hunts at least the next five consecutive years, barring any further state hunt system degradation “changes” (That includes beating Wyoming to the punch next year). After that I’ll still have 25+ bonus points in many states that will give me legit chances in their random lotteries. My prior hunts include a lucky New Hampshire moose tag, where I harvested a giant. And still have max NR points for Maine moose but that’s house money. I’ll let my step-nephew shoot if I ever draw there. With regards to NR cost, the only ones I have been priced out of is WY bison and NM exotics. These others are still reasonable for me. I‘m more concerned with being healthy and fit enough to do these hunts than tag prices. Am not wealthy but have a good job and am frugal. No other costly activities.

From: Matt
04-Dec-22
Want to hunt a state on the cheap? Move there. If you don’t want to, it isn’t on them. It is on you. Suck it up buttercup.

From: RD in WI
05-Dec-22
I would like the non-resident applications to be easy - I exchange my money for a tag, the state's DNR tells me what year my tag is good for, I show up that year to hunt. All this preference point BS is just a hassle and, apparently, no guarantee of a future hunt.

From: Lost Arra
05-Dec-22
zim: I think Randy Newberg said to hunt when you can; we usually run out of health before we run out of money.

From: PECO2
05-Dec-22
" I’ll let my step-nephew shoot if I ever draw there." I don't know the laws there, but probably not legal.

From: wytex
05-Dec-22
PECOS maybe check those laws before stated something like that. Maine allows a subpermittee to hunt moose. It is legal.

From: llamapacker
05-Dec-22
It is pretty damn hard to be a legal resident in multiple states. That makes me a non-resident in the other 49, or maybe that is 52 states according to our president.

While I have chosen to live in a western state, and hunt my home state each year, it is increasingly difficult to acquire tags in neighboring states. And I am willing to pay the sky-rocketing prices. But increasingly states are finding ways to limit tags to non-residents, while increasing point fees, etc., and then changing the rules to prevent issuing the tags years down the road.

For me, it isn't about the cost, but it definitely is for my son. While I may pay for a tag for him out of state as well, it definitely will impact him and his kids in the future. The golden days of non-resident hunting are quickly ending. And the hunting community will be worse off in the long run, even though this is a self-inflicted wound.

There really is little to nothing that can be done. Don't blame the conservation organizations, and certainly don't ask the Federal government to "fix" the problem. It will only be even worse. It is our local politicians who are responding to local sportsman's demands and creating the problem. Asking politicians to do the right and honorable thing has become laughable, regardless of party affiliation. Bill

From: Zim
06-Dec-22
“It is pretty damn hard to be a legal resident in multiple states.”

I’m fortunate to be a resident in two. Bought an Illinois LL back in 2006. Ended up moving to Indiana for tax reasons in 2019. Best investment I ever made. Even so, it’s aggravating because although I’m limited in all my Western inits by NR quotas, corrupt legislators got rid of our IL NR quota 20 years ago. So I still feel like a NR as all our public lots here are completely filled with LA, MS, AL, GA, FL, TN, MI, PA and more plates every November. Go figure.

From: Jaquomo
06-Dec-22
I posted this on the point creep thread, but it is relevant here.

Fewer hunters, but the ones who are hunting are hunting and applying in multiple states. This is a relatively new phenomenon enabled by the internet.

Before the web made identifying and applying so easy, and information on where to hunt so prolific and available, hunters hunted their own state with maybe an occasional big trip "out west" every few years. Now... PushCoArcher is a perfect example. Nothing wrong with it, but he applied for 20 tags in four states other than his own. Hundreds of thousands of hunters are doing this every year. I'm surprised creep isn't way worse, frankly.

06-Dec-22
“So I still feel like a NR as all our public lots here are completely filled with LA, MS, AL, GA, FL, TN, MI, PA and more plates every November. Go figure.”

Insert September instead of November and that’s exactly why I feel bad for Colorado residents.

From: Zim
06-Dec-22
“Insert September instead of November and that’s exactly why I feel bad for Colorado residents.”

All the CO hunts I was on had ~80% resident plates. But I don’t do those OTC elk units. I can only dream of 80% resident plates in IL. Never seen that even pre-2000 when we actually had a NR quota.

From: Zim
07-Dec-22

From: Tilzbow
07-Dec-22
Bunch of whiners!!!! Move to Nevada where even residents feel like non-residents of other states and only get to hunt elk every 20 years, antelope every 10-12 years and deer every 5 to 8 years.

Blame legislators, the feds and the conservation orgs isn’t going to help. It’s really simple and comes down to supply and demand. If you really want to help get out and do some work to improve the supply by joining and volunteering for the conservation org of your choosing.

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