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Looks like a Void to me! ??
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
Pat Lefemine 26-Nov-22
JohnMC 26-Nov-22
bentstick54 26-Nov-22
MA-PAdeerslayer 26-Nov-22
Matt 26-Nov-22
Shiloh 26-Nov-22
Beendare 26-Nov-22
azelkhntr 26-Nov-22
drycreek 26-Nov-22
Corax_latrans 26-Nov-22
70lbDraw 26-Nov-22
Wildan2 26-Nov-22
RT 26-Nov-22
bentstick54 26-Nov-22
Huntiam 26-Nov-22
Bou'bound 27-Nov-22
Wildan2 27-Nov-22
Blood 27-Nov-22
APauls 27-Nov-22
timex 27-Nov-22
HDE 27-Nov-22
KSflatlander 27-Nov-22
TonyBear 27-Nov-22
Hancock West 27-Nov-22
Zbone 27-Nov-22
tobywon 27-Nov-22
midwest 27-Nov-22
Corax_latrans 27-Nov-22
2Wild Bill 28-Nov-22
timex 28-Nov-22
2Wild Bill 28-Nov-22
bentstick54 28-Nov-22
WV Mountaineer 28-Nov-22
Pat Lefemine 28-Nov-22
WV Mountaineer 28-Nov-22
WhattheFOC 28-Nov-22
Rob Nye 28-Nov-22
Rob Nye 28-Nov-22
arlone 28-Nov-22
Buckdeer 28-Nov-22
Rob Nye 28-Nov-22
Rob Nye 28-Nov-22
Corax_latrans 28-Nov-22
WV Mountaineer 28-Nov-22
stealthycat 28-Nov-22
BUCKeye 28-Nov-22
Bou'bound 29-Nov-22
WhattheFOC 29-Nov-22
Will 29-Nov-22
Grey Ghost 29-Nov-22
APauls 29-Nov-22
greg simon 29-Nov-22
stealthycat 29-Nov-22
bentstick54 29-Nov-22
Mulehorn 29-Nov-22
Corax_latrans 29-Nov-22
timberdoodle 30-Nov-22
From: Pat Lefemine
26-Nov-22

Pat Lefemine's embedded Photo
Pat Lefemine's embedded Photo
Just Sayin’

From: JohnMC
26-Nov-22
There is no void. But WTF? That think must be half alien or photoshopped

26-Nov-22
Photo shopped!

26-Nov-22
Ya I’m going photoshop

From: Matt
26-Nov-22
Is there an exit? Could have hit the spine.

From: Shiloh
26-Nov-22
I believe it could be legit

From: Beendare
26-Nov-22
.338 win mag exit wound right there…

Tough critter….he should have used a .375 H & H

From: azelkhntr
26-Nov-22
Now thats amazingly gnarly.

From: drycreek
26-Nov-22
Hmmm, Rage outa the cage……

26-Nov-22
What’s that on his neck in the first picture? And the stripe leading up to the wound.

It’s remotely possible that a bullet (or slug) came in at a very shallow angle and skipped off of the ribs. I actually had that happen once with one of the early Nosler Ballistic Tips; it virtually bounced out on a quartering-away angle. And I have a tanned deer hide to prove it - 7mm hole next to a ragged hole. Looks like the bullet exited in 2 pieces.

Anyway, if the shot was from behind, maybe it shaved that stripe and hit him in the neck. Might be that the buck was facing away and the neck was the intended target.

But there ain’t no way that hole goes through.

From: 70lbDraw
26-Nov-22
What’s with his hind quarter? Is it just the way his fur is laying, or is it swollen or blistered?

From: Wildan2
26-Nov-22
We had one exactly like that last year;shot with a .300 Win Mag by one neighbor and killed two weeks later by a different neighbor.Have it on multiple trail cameras.First guy walked right up to it;then it jumped up and took off.Still rutting and chasing does.

From: RT
26-Nov-22
Chicks dig exposed ribs

26-Nov-22
Looks to me like you can see clear through him, daylight on the backside?

From: Huntiam
26-Nov-22
12 clicks down and 4 left

From: Bou'bound
27-Nov-22
Did you find him Pat. Do we have a blood trail challenge coming?

From: Wildan2
27-Nov-22

Wildan2's embedded Photo
Wildan2's embedded Photo
Shot with .300 Win Mag,see previous post

From: Blood
27-Nov-22
It’s an old pic from a few years ago. From what’s on the internet about the pic, it’s an optical illusion about “seeing through it”.

From: APauls
27-Nov-22
There was a video last year with a buck that was cut like half open top to bottom and when it walked across the trail it looked like a side of beef opening and closing

From: timex
27-Nov-22
Big bullets from big guns are designed to hit big animals!!!!!!! A whitetail is not a big animal when compared to moose, elk, grizz, thin skinned African game etc. These controlled expansion bullets designed for penitration on large animals will zip through a whitetail like a fmj...... imagine bowhunting deer with field points.

Ya hear it quite often. I don't understand I'm shooting a 300 or 338 win mag and deer keep running away ????? My bullet has xxxx amount of energy at xxx yards why isn't it knocking deer down ?????? BECAUSE THE BULLET MUST MEET RESISTANCE IN ORDER TO DELIVER THE ENERGY....

ya just can't beat it into some folks head with a hammer.

The photo is completely understandable if the deer was shot with a controlled expansion bullet that didn't touch a rib....

From: HDE
27-Nov-22
There are no air pockets in the abdomen or chest cavity. Not aware of any large amounts of abdominal fluid in the abdomen or chest cavity to create large "empty" places. If there were, your chest would not rise and fall with each breath.

There is no "void"...

From: KSflatlander
27-Nov-22
HDE 2X. If that picture were real the diaphragm couldn’t create a vacuum. No vaccine…no lungs filling with air…dead deer. Photoshop IMO.

From: TonyBear
27-Nov-22
The void is the area above the lung cavity, i.e. the spine and tissue surrounding it.

27-Nov-22

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo

From: Hancock West
27-Nov-22
I see daylight!

From: Zbone
27-Nov-22
How recent Pat? Looks like that wound is healing, even though he's licking it, maybe he'll make it... With the snow, would assume that's a NY buck?

From: tobywon
27-Nov-22
That deer just didn’t have the guts to die!!

From: midwest
27-Nov-22
The void doesn't exist but it does in that buck....now. lol

That one's been around a few years.

27-Nov-22
“These controlled expansion bullets designed for penitration on large animals will zip through a whitetail like a fmj...... imagine bowhunting deer with field points.”

Well, except for the shock wave. Yes, it’s reduced vs moderate expansion, but like Wildan’s photo - a lot of time when guys use a .300 Mag with a 150 grain bullet that was engineered for.308 - .30-‘06 velocities, the jackets just can’t stand up to the impact and they blow a crater on the surface. So then the outcome is either spectacular or a mess. I think that’s how the .243 got a rep as a crippler - a lot of the 80 grain loads were really intended for varmints. You hit a shoulder with that and it ain’t gonna be pretty. 80 grain controlled expansion, not such a problem. Monolithic like a Barnes, should be zero issues.

But I think way too many people expect the animal to tip over immediately, and it (generally speaking) just ain’t gonna happen.

But anymore, I’m more into slugs that don’t need to expand. But not so much into rifles these days, either, though sometimes I do think it’d be fun to get back into smokepoles or mess around with a good lever .22…..

From: 2Wild Bill
28-Nov-22
I understand it is easy to blame the gun hunters, however, the hydrostatic shock of a bullet so near the spine would have put that deer down.

Some years ago, where I worked, the grounds crew called me to examine a deer found dead. It seems the critter took an arrow to the spine, and while about six inches remained the shaft was broken. That six inches worked a hole in the flesh to the diameter which you see in the picture. The hit I saw was a few inches forward. I remember thinking that the deer was so small it must have appeared farther away and thus the high hit.

Third deer in picture has a longer main beam than the first two pictures. Photoshop could account for the appearance of seeing through the hole.

Pat, Was that Fairfield County?

From: timex
28-Nov-22
2wild bill.......I do somewhat agree but also disagree. I've neck shot plenty of deer and over the years had a few that instantly hit the ground and then several minutes later jump up and take off. Yes the bullet shocked their spinal nerve system enough to drop them but didn't sever the spine. Again a bullet must encounter resistance in order to deliver it's energy (shock) into an animal. If a bullet goes right through an animal with little resistance the energy is continuing on. The berger bullets I hunt with are designed to deliver extreme hydrostatic shock and rarely exit the animal unless their close. Most the time the base of the bullet is against the off side hide and they blow softball size holes through the ribs. They are an absolutely wicked bullet.

From: 2Wild Bill
28-Nov-22
If the hole you see is the exit, there must have been expansion with shock to enlarge itself to that, or nearly that diameter, not a passthrough.

28-Nov-22
If a bullet didn’t expand the hole would only be the size of the bullet diameter, not the size of a softball.

28-Nov-22
It’s not a bullet wound. I doubt it’s an arrow wound. That far behind the shoulder would be below the spine as well.

Scoot either a bullet or an arrow forward to be in the shoulder blade and that deer is hit through the back bone. Dead with a rifle. Depends on setup with a bow.

From: Pat Lefemine
28-Nov-22
I have no idea where the photo was taken, I did not have direct knowledge of it. Was sent to me from a buddy in Michigan and it's making the rounds there. Looks real to me but it could be fake - who knows. I know there's no "void" but I do think there's an area above the lungs that deer get hit and survive from. Has happened to me too.

28-Nov-22
I agree Pat. Peoples ideas get thrown around like candy bars with no thought.

If the lungs and vitals filled the chest cavity fully, they wouldn’t work. The heart couldn’t pump. The kinds couldn’t inflate, etc….. Everyone knows that’s the case if they’d slow down and think. But, that’s not the internet way.

I’m not being a wise guy either. But, I made a statement pretty much the same here 6-7 years ago and got roasted for doing so.

I’ve ground hunted a lot and shot more then one deer I know was below the spine and, in the chest cavity, and never found them. It happens. And, as close as they were and as slow as sone of the arrows were going, I know I didn’t see something besides the reality I saw.

It is what it is. And, it doesn’t happen often. But, it does happen. I’ve seen and/or had trail cam pics of deer I and buddies have shot that prove it.

From: WhattheFOC
28-Nov-22
Yes - I double lung’d a gemsbok one time, and it was still on its feet the next day. Shot placement was confirmed in the skinning shack - the shot was as high and to the rear as it could be while still piercing both lungs. In NA my placement would have been fine. In Africa, not so much.

Good learnings that day. #1 African shot placement is different. #2 lung shots are less effective, the further they are from the heart.

From: Rob Nye
28-Nov-22

Rob Nye's embedded Photo
Rob Nye's embedded Photo
Here are some real pics. This buck was wounded in the neck by a gun hunter. 5 days later an archery client hit him high. Heavy arrow with fixed 3 blade went right through the deer. He chased A doe past the Bowhunter 10 minutes later. He came back the next day but was pretty nervous for some reason. The buck is visible in background watching does. Zoomed in screen shot clearly show the bullet wound in neck and arrow exit wound in his side. He is still chasing does around the area. Tough bugger.

From: Rob Nye
28-Nov-22

Rob Nye's embedded Photo
Rob Nye's embedded Photo

From: arlone
28-Nov-22
A few years ago I hit a small buck "high" but just right for behind the shoulder. Arrow went through and as the deer bounded off the field there was arrow shaft sticking out both sides. I found both halves of the arrow where he ran off the field and snapped the shaft entering the brush. A little blood for awhile, but dried up and ravens and eagles never showed up? I think I hit the non existing "void", but then I am fairly ignorant about such things?

From: Buckdeer
28-Nov-22
There may not be a void as in an empty space but there is for sure an area that you can hit there and not kill the deer.

From: Rob Nye
28-Nov-22

Rob Nye's embedded Photo
Rob Nye's embedded Photo
The arrow wounds are healing fast but he has a noticeable lump on his back. I will be checking cams in the area tomorrow will hopefully see how he looks.

From: Rob Nye
28-Nov-22

Rob Nye's embedded Photo
Rob Nye's embedded Photo

28-Nov-22
“If the lungs and vitals filled the chest cavity fully, they wouldn’t work. The heart couldn’t pump. The kinds couldn’t inflate, etc….. Everyone knows that’s the case if they’d slow down and think. But, that’s not the internet way.”

Dude… You’re just categorically Wrong. In every possible way. The only air/unoccupied space inside the chest cavity is in the airway.

Put it this way:

The chest cavity is like an engine cylinder. The diaphragm is the piston that pulls air in when the muscle contracts and pushes it back out when it relaxes. Strictly speaking it’s not the diaphragm doing the pushing so much as “everything else in the abdominal cavity”, but you get the point.

That’s why your gut sticks out when you take a deep breath; your diaphragm is pushing everything else out of its way. When you suck in your gut, it works because your diaphragm is contracting and since there’s no air coming in to fill that vacuum, your insides get pulled into that space instead of air coming in.

I think too many people believe that the spine sits a LOT higher in the body than it does.

28-Nov-22
I’m not your dude. And, I’m well aware of where the spine is on a whitetail deer. Im also aware that the lungs fill the chest cavity when inflated. That means there is room for them to inflate. Call me stupid but, that’s the way it works when the diaphragm pulls air into them.

Have you ever actually gutted a deer?

From: stealthycat
28-Nov-22
there is no void - do people still believe that ?

From: BUCKeye
28-Nov-22

BUCKeye's embedded Photo
BUCKeye's embedded Photo
A few years ago someone hit this guy higher and more back in early to mid October. My son killed this deer about 3 months later in late January. There was no noticeable wound and I only had to discard a tiny piece of 1 backstrap.

From: Bou'bound
29-Nov-22
Did you find him Pat. Do we have a blood trail challenge coming?

From: WhattheFOC
29-Nov-22
The next trail cam pic was the following morning. Drury brothers doing a grid search.

From: Will
29-Nov-22
I cant speak to the picture, be it real or not, nor what it's showing. But I know with certainty that there is no space between the lungs and ribs/spine that is possible to put a projectile through without hitting lungs. There are a million things that can impact how a hole in the rib cage impacts the function of the lungs. But it's not a debatable point, there is no void or space between lungs and ribs/spine.

Definitely debatable whether that pic is or isnt real and what it's showing... I have no idea on that front.

HDE nailed it.

From: Grey Ghost
29-Nov-22

Grey Ghost's Link
The lungs fill the entire chest cavity at all times. There is never a "space" between the lungs and chest walls whether inhaling or exhaling. The void myth has been debunked for years. Here's a quote from an ER physician, Dr. Alan Lazzara, in an article by the Meateater.

“Human lungs and deer lungs are very similar,” Lazzara said. “If we had a void in our thorax we’d feel chest pain, we’d struggle to breathe, and we’d risk collapsed lungs every time we encountered pressure changes. A mammal’s lungs stay in constant contact with the chest walls. They’re part of the chest’s tightly sealed pressure chamber, which adjusts its size and capacity to accommodate breathing, physical exertion, and external pressures. No healthy mammal has a chest void, and mammals have amazingly similar anatomies.”

Matt

From: APauls
29-Nov-22
lol if the lungs were to expand into "air" what, pray tell, would be the point of the diaphragm? And the lungs do this how? Their own musculature I imagine?

From: greg simon
29-Nov-22
The mysterious "Void" does exist. However it is filled with muscle not air. Above the spine there are only vertical spinous processes and muscle, then hide and hair of course. An area void of any vitals. A hit above the spine and under the skin is not going to touch any vital structures. The spine is lower than often thought, as indicated is the cross sectional photograph above.

From: stealthycat
29-Nov-22
greg simon - that's not what people think the "void" is

they think its above the lungs, below the spine ... which has been proven to NOT exist

29-Nov-22
I agree with greg simons post as far as everything above the spine is a non vital area, but not a void anymore than a shoulder or ham being a “ void”. Non lethal in most cases, but not a”void”. In BUCKeyes photo I believe that arrow has hit that area above the spine where there are no vitals. Same with Wildan2’s photo. As far as the lungs not filling the entire chest cavity and there being room in there for them to expand, why does my chest expand and contract when I breath?

From: Mulehorn
29-Nov-22
Tough, tough animal, incredible!

29-Nov-22
WVM… Lungs can no more inflate themselves than a party balloon can blow itself up. They look shriveled up inside of a dead (opened up) deer because all of the air has gone out of them.

“But I know with certainty that there is no space between the lungs and ribs/spine that is possible to put a projectile through without hitting lungs.”

Yup. And it IS possible to hit OVER the spine and clip the top of the off lung. Easier from up in a tree, naturally.

That’s why I always wonder what really happened when someone says a shot was “high, but under the spine” and they didn’t recover the animal, because if your BH passes just BARELY under the spine, you stand to clip the descending aorta, which is about as lethal as a bowshot can possibly get. It’s not necessarily any better than the ascending, but it’s no worse. And actually, it might indeed be better, because it takes more blood to maintain the body from the heart down than from the heart up. There’s no brain, but there are more big muscles back there; and there’s liver, kidneys, digestive tract - all of that needs blood supply.

But if you hit just a shade higher than the massive vessels attached to the spine, you’ll still get a little lung and the body of the spinal column. And you’ll know. BUCKeye’s pic looks like that. Maybe you get lucky and knock him down for a second. I don’t know if I have that much KE to knock a deer down. Don’t think so, but hope I never find out.

A little higher is spinal cord. And you’ll know.

Anything higher than that is a flesh wound. Anything lower than the big vessels, though….. that’s not so much on the fringe of the lungs; it’s kinda right in the middle of things. Look at Ricky’s pic of the frozen deer. You can’t get through there without cutting a path through at least what, 6” or 8” of lung tissue??

That’s a non-trivial injury.

(I should note that that section through the frozen deer that Ricky posted is fairly far back in the shoulder, as you can see by the span of the shoulder blades where they are cut through. So that might be right over the top of the heart or a bit forward of that. Really makes you think about how much is there that you can hit without clipping anything vital…)

From: timberdoodle
30-Nov-22
Everybody repeat after me: There is no void in the thoracic cavity. Done.

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