NM draw system
Contributors to this thread:Elk
From: Pyrannah
04-Dec-22
any of you guys use these "semi guided" outfitters so u can get in to the higher odds draw pools? i found a few but i am pretty skeptical...
determined guided elk hunts just aren't for me and looking for different options and solutions to hopefully getting a chance at an elk...
thanks everyone
From: Norseman
04-Dec-22
Me thinks odds are better in the other pool for the primo HQ/HD.
From: PushCoArcher
04-Dec-22
The outfitters pool is a abomination! But will absolutely increase your odds of drawing a tag. My buddy has got a antelope and elk tag in the last 6-7 years doing just that. My understanding is certain outfitters for a fee will put you in their draw, they get over 20% I believe of the tags while DIY NR get 6%. But the tag is good unit wide and once you get it you do not have to hunt with the outfitter. Depending on species and unit the fees vary widely.
From: nmwapiti
04-Dec-22
Yep. I've looked into it. Applied once that way and didn't draw. It basically doubles your odds from dismal to bad. The outfitter I was dealing with (who I know and like) said he would pack us in and our guide would be a friend, cousin, or similar the first couple days. Then we're on our own for the rest of the hunt. He would pack us out if he was available.
From: Jethro
04-Dec-22
Guide pool gets 10% of the tags and the odds are better, but that doesn't mean they are good. Legal minimum is 2 days guided to satisfy the guide pool license and the guide has to be with you. Guided portion of hunt must be satisfied before you can hunt the tag on your own.
From: huntabsarokee
04-Dec-22
We did this back in 2020 and the guides we got never guided before. They were hunters but not guides. Outfitter had a problem finding guides because they didn’t like doing 2 days because had to give up a 5 day gig. We didn’t care so much but you didn’t get much for $1200. The outfitter told me after he was stopping the 2 day trips because it was too hard to find guides willing to do it.
From: butcherboy
04-Dec-22
Guide pool here is a joke. A friend of mine was an outfitter and he hates it. Look at the list of registered outfitters and you will start seeing addresses from all over the country. There is a lot of people that register as an outfitter just so their buddies can put in the draw in the outfitter pool and then use their buddy as the “guide” as well. I have another friend who is a guide but not an outfitter. He paid the outfitter he works for $1000 to use his outfitter number to put in for a premium mule deer hunt. He drew it then used his cousin who is a registered guide “working” for the same outfitter to “guide” him. Lots of back door deals and corruption going on. I believe the outfitter pool needs to be stopped. They should book clients after the draw and based on their reputation. My rant for the day is over. Lol
From: Zim
04-Dec-22
I sometimes use that draw pool but it’s only under certain specific situations. Not every year. But won't get into details as I don’t need even more competition.
From: HDE
04-Dec-22
I'd guide someone for two days if an outfitter needed someone. Be an easy $xxx.xx cash in my pocket since the hunter would be calling the shots anyway.
Wouldn't shed a tear if NM would pull its head out if its ass and overhaul the outfitter wellfare program either.
From: KHNC
06-Dec-22
Im heading to NM website now to register as an outfitter. That way maybe me and EMG can get a tag next year.
From: KHNC
06-Dec-22
Im heading to NM website now to register as an outfitter. That way maybe me and EMG can get a tag next year.
From: smarba
06-Dec-22
It's actually not all it's cracked up to be. Guided pool gets 10% of the tags. DIY NRs get 6%. In most cases there is no benefit to being in the Guided pool. If you're considering getting into the Outfitter business to do it all on your own you'd need an Outfitter license, insurance, land use permits, NM taxes, AND you can't apply for hunts under your own Outfitter license, so you'd be paying a LOT of $ to let your friends apply...
I'm certainly not a fan of "Outfitter welfare" but it's a pretty expensive business and tough to make $ or even break even.
From: HDE
06-Dec-22
^^^ you also have to guide for 3 years for an outfitter and own real property in the state as well.
From: Quinn @work
06-Dec-22
butchery,
Is there something illegal or corrupt with the scenario you mentioned? It looks to me like that's a typical outfitter minimal guide service deal? You pay the money to be in the outfitter pool and then if you draw you are required to be guided for a minimum of the 1st 2 days of your hunt. Am I not correct?
From: butcherboy
06-Dec-22
Yes, you are correct. In the scenario I posted the one hunting was being guided by his cousin. He was not being paid as a guide. It was just a way to loop around the rules. His cousin registered as a guide specifically so he could “guide” for the required two days.
From: Quinn @work
06-Dec-22
Seems kind of innocuous? So the outfitter didn't pay the "cousin" a couple hundred bucks to guide or did he?
From: smarba
07-Dec-22
There's no set price a "guide" or Guide needs to charge, but all the paperwork for land use permits, insurance, Outfitter license, etc. need to be in place and there are fees for all of that, plus NM taxes.
I hear about people guiding their friends for a couple hundred, but I don't know how that's actually possible given all the other costs associated with the paperwork.
From: butcherboy
07-Dec-22
No payment at all to the “guide”. Payment was made to the outfitter to use his info on the application. “Guide” was then listed as one of the outfitter’s guides even though he doesn’t actually guide. See how they got around using a paid guide for the required two days now? It was a handshake kind of deal and let’s keep this between ourselves.
From: smarba
07-Dec-22
Hunters are required to have a written contract with Outfitter that they must carry in the field. Guides must pass written test to be registered by NMDGF. Guides are required to carry applicable paperwork including land use permit in the field. It's likely the system gets abused, but to do everything legally involves a lot of time and $.
That said there are plenty of poachers in NM, so plenty of people willing to take shortcuts and do things illegally.
butcherboy, in the scenario you describe it could be legal, assuming the "guide" is actually a registered Guide, and the Outfitter is registered and holds applicable Land Use Permits; and by default to be registered and obtain land use permits the Outfitter must have business license, insurance, pay taxes on income, etc.
From: butcherboy
07-Dec-22
Yep, it was legal in a round about way. He just didn’t have to pay his “guide” or the outfitter I should say didn’t pay the “guide”.
From: HDE
07-Dec-22
Outfitter and guide could lose their licenses and the hunter lose hunting privileges for a few years if game and fish caught wind of that...
From: dizzy_higg
07-Dec-22
From: KHNC
08-Dec-22
Yep, usually the hard part about New Mexico elk is getting a tag, not finding the elk.
From: pirogue
08-Dec-22
That 10% allocation of tags to the “guided” pool includes both resident and non-resident, so when you factor in residents, probably not that much of an advantage for the NR
