BIG Wyoming Preference Point Changes!
Elk
Gonna be LOTS of unhappy people!
I suspect it will happen. Maybe not this year, but soon. I honestly think it’s probably “better” IMO. But of course I’m not a high point holder, and I certainly understand other guys frustrations.
—jim
With 21 points for sheep and moose I'm not sure I like any of the 3. If I had to choose between the 3 options, I'd vote for #2. Even at 21 points I'll probably never draw a sheep tag with the reduced NR quota now anyway.
Looks like they are trying to find a way to get NR's to buy their worthless preference points again.
Any option includes free jar Vaseline.
Quinn— I don’t think they are 3 options, I think it’s one policy with 3 components. At least that is the way I read it.
—jim
Jim
I agree with you. One proposal with 3 components.
Also not a high point holder here, but I dont think any of the components will help any of the NRs without next to max points.
The kool aid is still tainted.
I think this is the most fair way to do it. Someone starting out has a chance. Sucks for people that have been building points for many years though.
I just checked my account,11 deer and 13 elk points.
I know what unit I want to go back to for deer, I better figure elk out and make both of these hunts a priority the next 2-3 years. Things are changing fast!
This topic is in the Elk category, but the linked information deals only with sheep and moose. Not elk or deer or any other species.
But yeah, they'll have to do something, and quick. I'm sure there's financial concerns about losing the 11000+ NR's who hold 20 or less sheep points, along with the 10000+ NR's who hold 19 or less Moose points. All of whom, in order to stay in the game, would have to continue purchasing points at 150.00 per year per species, with zero chance to draw a permit. The NR random licenses for those two species were legislated out of existence. With only preference permits now available to NR, few of us in those pools will live long enough to earn a permit by preference. It would make no sense for those NR's in the lower point pools to keep applying and paying that strong price for points, if the system is not changed.
Sucks to have this happen after 23 years of applying for moose.
It’s not very often that it feels good to have zero points for something.
Correct. Didn't really comprehend the full message. I guess I was more concerned with the eminent KY jelly that is coming my way. :) Thanks Wyoming.
Damn, marriages most of the time don't last more than 22 years.
I'm setting on 20 points for moose and bighorns going into 2023, but don't understand what this is going to do to me?
It’s going to give you 400 points!!! But greatly decrease their value.
Zbone, you've already been impacted by the dramatic reduction in non-resident permits that was approved this year. Now the team is proposing to further impact the higher point holders, by changing the draw system (sheep and moose only) to eliminate preference. For both residents and non-residents. It would be a 100% random bonus point system with squared points. So instead of permits being issued to applicants with the most points, permits will be issued to those applicants whose name is randomly drawn from the pool of all applicants. They propose a "grace period" of a few years to allow higher point holders some time to attempt to draw a permit, before the system is changed. It's extremely unlikely that you can draw a ram tag during this grace period. You might be able to draw a low-demand bull moose tag or a cow moose tag.
Welcome to Montana. I walked away from points when they did that. I couldn’t imagine me with 400 deer points and TBM draws my unit with zero!
Unless you are one of the top point holders for moose and sheep, you currently have ZERO chance to draw a tag. Wyoming is already seeing a huge decrease in NR applicants paying $150 for totally worthless sheep points. (Again, unless you are a top point holder.) The change last year eliminated all chance to draw a random tag, and ALL tags go to the top point holders.
By proposing to switch to squared bonus points, not preference points, they hope to lure people back into paying the expensive fees. There really is little incentive to buy another $150 point if you have, let's say, 15 already. Given the number of applicants with points already, you will have an incredibly small chance of drawing, and 16 points won't make much of a difference, especially considering the investment. Squared bonus points have incredibly little value, and anybody can draw a tag each year, even the first time applicant. But having lots of bonus points really doesn't change your odds much at all. You are no longer competing with people just in your preference point pool, but with ALL applicants. Math skills are sorely lacking for most, so some will still pony up the money thinking it will improve their odds. The reality is it is a fool's errand. It is about as effective as buying a second Powerball ticket each week. Hint: Your odds have NOT doubled of winning the lottery! Bill
It's a random draw so everyone with their name in the hat has a chance. Points or lack there of simply determine how many times your name gets put in the hat. The fact that your points are squared just gives you more tickets in the lottery.
It's gonna be a random draw with your points squared. Just like Montana. But unlike Montana, NR and RES would each have their own separate pool of tags to draw from.
No more tags going to just the highest PP holders, bonus points puts everyone in the same drawing for the number of times you have bonus points. Everyone in the draw has a chance based on the number of bonus points they have. llamapacker I'm not sure you r are right on the no random this year. There were 6 random draw tags given out for bighorn sheep and 7 tags allotted for random moose.
Right Bill! I hear people say all the time "I doubled (tripled...) my odds of winning by buying more tickets" Nope. You increased your chances. A little, very little. Two or three in 350 million is not (statistically significant) better than 1 in 350 million!!!
BUT, Ya ain't gonna win if you don't play!!!
The 2022 draw was the last year before the NR tag reductions take effect. In 2023's draw NR's will have a 10% ceiling imposed on Sheep & Mt Goat and Moose and Bison. At the current unit quotas, there'll be no random ram tags, and maybe one random bull moose tag.
For my way of thinking the only significant benefit of the proposed squared bonus system, is that it gives the not-at-the-top point holders a slim chance at the high-demand units where they previously had zero lifetime chance to draw. It should take some application pressure off the units which previously had random tags for NR. But either way, most of us will never draw a permit simply because too many people want them.
Similar to Nevada as well with squared points.
For me, with less than max sheep points it now gives me a chance! It also gives my kids a chance where before there was none.
Preference points are a form of age discrimination. Some high demand tags will never be drawn by those not in the oldest class
If it keeps on it will be cheaper to just go hunt what your after without a tag & take your chances on getting caught. I stopped the point game after I took my son on his first Antelope & he took a decent buck the 3rd day (public, DIY). I feel for those with years of points & possibly getting a screw job.
Very happy 7 years ago I made the decision to stay out of the sheep and moose game in Wyoming. I could do the math then and tell I'd never draw except the slim chance in the random. Put what money I'd have spent on long shot apps into a fund for a big trip for moose to Alaska or Canada. Can't believe their are guys with 1-6 points for M&S in WY they must have not been good at math. Those changes don't impress me and I still won't buy a point although I will apply and possibly draw a tag with 0 points (I can imagine the 20+ pointers loosing it).The new changes enacted are going to lower point sales this is their answer. Lot more people without high points then with and many will now think that with the switch from preference point to bonus they have a chance. Many also won't do the math and will buy points to "up" their chances.
There really seems to be no way out of the PP's mess without screwing the ones with the most invested.
Maybe allow high point holders to transfer their points. If a group of say ten high point holders want to put all their points in a lump and they draw straws to see who "owns" the points. That knocks nine people out of a race they would likely never win anyway. Then at least one guy hunts instead of ageing out. One in ten odds sounds better than "probably never".
I'm happy that BC has always been completely random draw, even though my luck sucks. If you get drawn for moose, supposedly your odds are cut in half for four years. We also have group and shared hunt draws for moose and bison.
Half of the NR sheep. moose, bison and goat tags were taken away in 2022 effective 2023. This dropped NR's chances of every getting a tag as a group by half. Based on how the allocation is implemented individual NRs will be impacted differently. If the implemented is delayed by 3-4 years, the very top NR point holders will have a chance to draw. However, there will still be a group of NRs who have played the game for 20+ years and if they could stay healthy would have drawn a tag, that will now be very unlikely to draw. That has to be devastating for them. Others will go from no chance to an extremely slim chance. Meanwhile, WY will be successful in taking away half of the NR tags and maintaining a market for the NR points. Other than a class action lawsuit to get back the money spent on points, there is very little that NRs can do. By squaring points, WY can take the position that the points still have value which will make it harder to win a lawsuit. I would guess that WY will still be able to fund their programs with a lot of NR dollars from fees while giving out half of the tags.
Gave up my WY sheep points 15 years ago. Stayed in for moose and drew a bull tag in 2013. So, I'm currently at zero for both species. Curious,under a new system, if WY will mandate annual point purchases to apply going forward...or if points will be an option?
I would not be surprised at all if they REQUIRE a point purchase to apply.
govt they are not taking points away, folks are keeping them in another form. WG&F only promised PP not a drawn tag, class action will fail but please try.
Was a tag guarantee ever mentioned in your PP purchase? I sure didn't see one when I bought all of mine. A class action is a joke, there's no grounds, at all, for a case. The opportunity to apply is still there, and the points still have value. We operate under a similar system as what is proposed here in SD. It works, points boost your odds but you can catch a flyer. I have thousands invested in points for my family for elk, sheep, goats, and deer here at home with no guarantee I will draw any of those tags. I keep buying and rolling the dice every year. Every once in a while, you win one, largely you don't. Everyone plays by the same rules though and everyone has a chance, that' the fairest thing I can think of.
If they required the purchase of a point to apply I'd remain out of the game. Maybe do like Colorado and not let you in the draw until you have a certain number of points. I hope they do neither and you can apply with 0 every year for bias reasons.
PushCo, this is all hypothetical since the new system will probably be delayed by 4 years....but in the future system, if you applied for a ram license with no points, that would give you 1 ticket in the hat or in other words 1 chance in the draw. Based on the published WY data for "Preference Points going into 2023" for NRs, under a point-squaring system, there would be 1,414,227 tickets in the hat if all point holders applied, not counting any applicants with zero points. Of course these "tickets" would be spread across the various hunt units available to NRs, which looks like it may be around 12 licenses next year. So your order-of-magnitude hypothetical draw odds might run somewhere in the 1:120,000 range with zero points. Just depends on whether you feel those type of odds are worth the cost of applying. FWIW my own standard is not to spend money applying for anything worse than 1:1000 odds. And here we could be talking odds that are more than 100 times worse than that threshold. But each person will have to make that decision.
They should let point holders move their points towards another species so they can get out of the game with something to show
Yes, that is correct, as a NR with 23 sheep points and a good 10 years left in him, it is absolutely devastating.
And don’t worry that this is in the elk section. Elk and deer WILL be next no matter what all the “experts” say.
The only solution to all these problems is to create more opportunity!
Not popular but there are ways to grow more sheep. Also need to ban domestic sheep grazing on public lands......
sticksender it would just depend on what the non-refundable cost would be. Already buy the habitat stamp every year anyway so that doesn't matter. If the app fee is $15 I'm in $150 not so much.
Legally an implied contract existed, some here need to do a little research or contact any competent attorney. This is not a gray/fuzzy area. It is a pretty clear cut complaint (aka lawsuit) and WY deserves it.
Anyone who started when I did in 2000 or before and had even a basic knowledge of math knew they WOULD draw a sheep & moose tag in less then 30 years. They spent over 20 years giving WY money only to have them change the game.
WY will get a complaint filed by NR's - so time will prove me right.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/implied_contract#:~:text=An%20implied%2Din%2Dfact%20contract,as%20assent%20or%20an%20agreement.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/implied_contract.asp
It is pretty easy math to see that a NR who started prior to 2020 and was willing to go 30 years would get a moose and sheep tag in a good unit. A guy on MM would post odds every year which made it very clear it was unwinding following that math. I followed the math closely and, if needed, have all the records to help the complaint.
Also I think someone said there would ne no NR sheep tags for the max point NR's - not true, sheep unit 5 should have tags. Unit 5 had 8 NR tags this year, that means 4 next year, 3 to max point 1 to random.
I drew my sheep tag this year and I am still saying WY is not fair to NR. Not to mention they started all the other states taking advantage if the NR. I wish I had a copy of either of the 2 surveys they sent a select few NR's. It was crystal clear they were studying how to get the most NR to spend the most money applying, for the longest time and give out the fewest tags.
It is a great business plan and worked to perfection. However, it is illegal and unethical IMO.
I can get an attorney to file a lawsuit that says I AM a sheep Don. There's no implied contract between point holders, the state holds all the cards. The only thing the points did was increase your theoretical chances of drawing a tag. The state fulfilled that part of the "implied contract". If someone has a bunch of money to waste then I hope they waste it on hookers and blow so they have something to show for it as opposed to this worthless lawsuit.
Burn em if you got em boys. In any state
First off, I feel for those with max points. It sucks when the rules get changed in the middle of the ballgame. The fact is, the pure preference point system is broke, has been for years. It doesn’t take a genius to know those that aren’t near the top of the PP pool have an extremely slim to no chance of ever drawing moose or sheep. Right or wrong, something had to change. Unfortunately, the top point holders are the ones that will get screwed.
“Anyone who started when I did in 2000 or before and had even a basic knowledge of math knew they WOULD draw a sheep & moose tag in less then 30 years”
From the beginning, it was NEVER stated that anyone WOULD draw a sheep or moose license, regardless of how many years one would accumulate PP’s. The fact you determined that everyone would do so within 30 years is on you, not the state. Speaking of simple math, all it takes is to see how drastically the moose population, therefore quotas, have been decimated by wolves, disease, etc in the past 20 years. As the populations declined, the number of applicants increased. A pure preference point system simply isn’t working. All that was ever stated was PP’s would increase odds of drawing limited quota licenses. They have, and they will continue to do so, although to a lesser degree than they did before. A slim chance is better than no chance. Hopefully there is a 5 year grace period so the top point holders can cash their’s in.
I feel bad for the high point holders who may get screwed by these changes, but I doubt a lawsuit based on "implied contract" will ever fly. States have been changing hunting regulations for decades, and the courts have repeatedly ruled in their favor.
In 2005, Congress passed legislation that reaffirmed the State's authority to regulate fish and wildlife however they deem appropriate. It was co-sponsored by 14 senators from 12 western states and it had the support of all 50 state wildlife agencies. The bill passed quickly and easily.
Matt
Well said wyobullshooter!
I started buying moose and sheep points in WY in 2000 at $7 a pop. Somewhere around 2007ish, they bumped the prices to $75 for moose and $100 for sheep. Keep in mind, these were PREFERENCE POINTS...not bonus points. WY also published the number of point holders...so it was possible to do the math and get a pretty good feel for when one should draw a preference tag.
Did the math for sheep...and the results said I would draw sheep in my mid-70s. That was not accounting for attrition of course. I dropped sheep based on those numbers. The math for moose said I could draw in 5-6 years, so I stayed in...and that's exactly what happened. So, I have to agree with those stating they were buying preference points annually and pretty much knew where they stood in line.
If I were sitting on 23 sheep points right now...I'd be pissed and looking for any avenue to hold the state of WY financially accountable for taking my money the past 23 years and basically flushing my odds of ever drawing a sheep tag down the toilet.
Why doesn’t any use those Wyo moose PPs for a cow tag and get outta the game?
Under current rules, a hunt code needs to offer 40 or more total licenses for a random license to be offered to NR now. The highest quota last year for rams was Unit 3 and Unit 5 with 32 each. So there's very little chance for NR's to receive any random permits for rams in 2023. For Bull Moose...they might give one random permit in Unit 25 which had 47 total permits last year, if that total quota holds up for 2023.
To sticksender’s point, in the 2022 draw there were only 6 NR sheep licenses available in the random draw and 7 NR moose licenses available in the random draw.
The following is only a theoretical breakdown since many point holders would have applied for the same licenses, but it illustrates how the pure preference point system is broken beyond repair.
The 2022 total NR sheep quota was 65, 5 of which were ewe/lamb licenses. This meant any person with 25 PP’s or more would have been successful in the draw and 4 of those with 24 PP’s would have drawn. That left the 12,054 completely shut out of the PP draw to vie for those 6 random licenses.
The 2022 total NR moose quota was 64, 9 of which were antlerless licenses. Anyone with 24 PP’s or more would have drawn and 29 of those with 23 PP’s would have drawn. That left the 11,900 that were completely shutout of the PP draw to compete for 7 random licenses.
It's all about.money today Who.is kidding who... when.was the.last time you saw some.guy.with an.average.buck.or.doe in Bowhunter.magazine or.other.periodicals.
Its.a.buisness.today .All outfitted hunts with an occasional DIY.hunt,on.prime land.
Thanks for the info sticksender, in that plain English it makes sense now to me what they are proposing...
My 20 points times $150 moose, $150 bighorn, for 20 consecutive years is 6 grand... I'm with Don, how can they "legally" change the game 20 years in... Ya can't move the goal posts once the game begins, it is unethical... I'm 63 years old and don't have another 30 years to random draw... When will we know if/when this change will go in affect??? Either give me the same odds to draw as when started, or send me a refund... If not, it's dirty pool and there must be some kind of legal ramifications...
The points for moose and sheep haven’t always been $150, zbone, but I agree about them moving the goalposts in the middle of the game. I bailed on the sheep draw a few years ago, with 17 points, knowing that was always going to be 3-5 years behind even sniffing a chance at drawing. I stayed in the moose draw and finally drew last year with 20 points. This really sucks for the near max point guys.
I hunted sheep in 20s. It was.1971. I hunted and worked just to do it. Jack o Connor was my hero I was done by 29 Figured it was time to get serious of making a solid.living.. I was so blessed.
Yeah, points weren't $150 twenty years ago, but they've been a buck 50 a long time...
Without moving the goalposts no 20 year old will ever hunt moose or sheep in Wyoming or 30 or 40 year olds for that matter. Should every sheep hunter be 70? Did you guys who invested in the system really think the one constant in life "change" wouldn't affect this? Hard to feel bad for a few hundred guy's who now don't have a chance when they could care less about the thousands who never had a chance.
"Hard to feel bad for a few hundred guy's who now don't have a chance when they could care less about the thousands who never had a chance."
Kids and young men have a chance if the start applying, that is their choice, I made that choice and financial commitment and the commitment to apply consecutively for 20 years... I've never had a Bighorn ram tag after applying much of my life... Is it fair a 20 year old kid can draw a tag his first year of applying over me?
Question - So with my 20 points, do I get 20 chances in the random draw, or only one like a first time applicant?
Gotta pay to play.
The point systems are still much cheaper in the long run than just buying a hunt, but that is also still an option…
The point systems in all these states were simply put in place to manage the people, not the resources. There was no implication that anyone buying points would ever get a tag. There is no way any lawsuit would be successful for anything to do with points…
I was wrong about random tags, sorry. Not sure how I thought there were enough NR tags in unit 5 to generate a random tag.
FYI when you do the math, or simply look at NR draws odds in Nevada, squared bonus points are much better for anyone who has been in the draw a while. If you have anywhere near 20 points for sheep/moose and keep applying you likely will draw in a decade. Many NR will drop out and many just buy points every year.
I feel a preference point system is the fairest way. After a decade roughly 3% of applicants drop out. You get closer to a tag more because apps drop out then tags issued. If you plan to apply for 30 years, and started over 20 years ago, you could draw almost any tag in the west. Until WY changed the game I was sure to draw my sheep tag, even though I started when I finished college. I started late AND when they stopped making you front the tag fee and let you buy a point for $7. This hurt me because there were a lot of guys in my point pool. 1 more point would have put me around 5 years ahead of where I was.
Sure you need 30 years but you get a tag. The system rewards long term guys. I prefer that over a 1 in 3,000 chance each year.
Don I was born in 1990 can't buy points in Wyoming till you're 12. Even if I would have begun at 12 (2012) I wouldn't have a tag in 30 years not even 60 years even without the changes. That's a fair system? There was never a guarantee that if you played the game (even for 20 years) you'd get a tag or that the system would never change. The system is broken time to fix it even if some old timers gotta get screwed.
Fairest way is a completely random draw with no PP or bonus PPs. All have a chance, not some guys that had the money to bump their place in line each year due to PPs.
wytex, you are correct about a completely random draw being the fairest across the board. However, the reason Wyoming went to a preference point system in the first place was all the bitching that went on when it WAS a random draw. Several people had drawn 3-4 times while others hadn’t drawn once in 40 years. If they had simply implemented a policy of a once-in-a-lifetime time license, that problem would have been eliminated…without the disaster the PP system has turned into.
I believe in the “if it’s not broken don’t fix it” system. We already had a random drawing. Anyone can draw a license even with zero points and nobody gets preference. We set aside licenses for that so people new to the game always have a chance to draw while they rack up some points.
That works for the the general licenses and areas that have high enough quotas to have licenses set aside. But there are two schools of thought. I like to hunt as often as possible for a variety of reasons. I’d rather kill 10 250-300 or so inchers than play the dead end game for who knows how little hoping to draw a license where I might kill a 350 bull. Way more fun. Way more memories. Way more meat. It’s more a way of life than the trip of a lifetime.
So the way I see it is if you choose to play that game you should know enough to know that it’s a risk. Times change. And not for the better. Instead of a 350 or 370 bull you may very well take those points to the grave.
Also there are so many other point holders and we are all limited to 1 point per year so you’re never going to pull ahead of the pack and win the race. Non resident opportunities are shrinking. The number of western hunters is exploding. So my advice is burn your points now. Pick somewhere decent where you’re guaranteed a license and go hunt.
I realize that’s not really an option with moose and sheep. I feel sorry for guys who got in early that are getting screwed. I have a solution that works out for people who have points but the state would lose money instead of milking the points business so it’ll never happen. But when it comes to elk, deer, and antelope I think it’s sound advice. I personally don’t think people should be allowed to just buy a point. If you want one pick a unit, even if it’s really low odds, and apply. Quit banking the hell out of so many points! It’s shooting ourselves in the foot in the long run. With the Wyoming Task Force on a relentless mission to axe as much opportunity from non res hunters as they can it goes without saying that the point saving method is a losing game. A downward spiral that’s getting worse every day. And tomorrow is never guaranteed so go hunt!
There are random tags for deer, elk, and antelope that someone has a chance at without max points. Some people commenting don't seem to know how Wyoming's draw works
There are tags hunters can draw with zero points! In the past 2 years I’ve had 3 friends draw general elk licenses with none.
That’s getting off topic though. This thread is about the changes for moose and sheep. But it’s getting tougher for all tags these days.
Orion, I would guess that most people do know there are random tags for deer, elk, and antelope. This proposal, therefore this thread, concerns only sheep and moose. Big difference.
Too many people wanting to hunt moose and sheep. Period. Nothing will satisfy everyone.
“Too many people wanting to hunt moose and sheep. Period. Nothing will satisfy everyone.” As it should be!!
Still waiting for the AZ lawsuit when they changed their system.....
To be clear, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I agree changes to tag numbers or allocations would be impossible fight and win. Arizona changed tag allocations a few years ago and WY did the same earlier this year.
But, by changing tag allocations, Wyoming set themselves up to potentially lose millions of dollars annually in point sales. This new proposal has nothing to do with being "fair" IMO...as Wyoming made a conscious decision to remove "fair" random tags for sheep and moose from the NR draw. This new proposal is 100% about money... and they apparently don't give a rat's ass about individuals that have already sent them thousands of dollars over the past 20+ years. I won't be surprised to see a lawsuit on this one.
I have 16 elk points. Looks like I'm going to need to make this hunt a priority in the next couple of years.
Just stating a fact. Nothing can be done about it. Not all the talk and debate. Prices go up as demand goes up and opportunities go down.
