Kansas deer Management timeline
Whitetail Deer
I'm curious about the deer management timeline in Kansas? I know it one point for many years the state did not allow nonresident hunting. What do bowsiters know about the history. When was the state closed and how did it get opened up?
A quick Google search shows the first resident season was 1965. Non-residents we’re first allowed in 1994.
Matt
This should be a fun thread. :)
Wasn’t it ‘96 and some black helicopter outfitter was threatening to sue the state and lock Kansas residents out of other states like Colorado and New Mexico?
My Kansas friends tell me it was spectacular hunting when it was resident’s only.
It’s still damn good but the outfitters and leasing has had an effect. No denying that.
Question for the Kansas guys. If someone owned 100 acres of land in Kansas, but was a nonresident, could he hunt his own property prior to 1994?
First season was in 65, NR's allowed in 94.
Hunting was better (my opinion) and much more accessible to residents before the boarder opened. Leasing was unheard of before 94 and is currently a major reason our youth is now finding access to hunt very difficult. Opening the boarder advanced outfitting and leasing, not to say it wouldn't have eventually happened anyway. I personally believe age structure has been more affected by baiting and crossbows allowance in archery season than anything else. Management before this was an application and draw for a rifle tag with a mandatory tooth send in. They determined buck tag numbers off of herd data based on harvest numbers and ages.
Rumors and speculation for opening the boarder range from possible retaliation from other states, influence from large land owners, and greed from insurance companies as well as politicians. Probably a combination of several of those. We were promised opening the boarder was an experiment and that they wouldn't give out more than 1500 tags (if I remember right). Now they have a meet demand system with over 20k NR tags being released annually.
Most of this is from memory. Please fact check and correct anything I have wrong. I hope someone has the time to look up specific numbers.
This is an article from the Daily Oklahoman 8/2/1998 It basically shares what the state of Kansas did to prevent out of state hunters the opportunity to deer hunt and what the department of wildlife in Oklahoma did in retaliation.
For Kansas Hunters, the Bucks Truly Stop in Oklahoma Covey Bean
John Croom is the victim of what some people think is an unfriendly attitude toward non-resident deer hunters on the part of the Kansas Legislature.
The lawmakers in Topeka apparently feel it is their duty to protect those giant river bottom bucks from out-of-state interlopers who would kill them in a heartbeat should the opportunity arise. At one time, Kansas was the only state in the union that did not permit any non-resident deer hunting.
Under some pressure, the Legislature a few years ago agreed to allow non-residents to apply for a limited number of deer permits if any are left over after Kansas residents get all they want. However, except for a few archery tags there's still no over-the-counter sale of out-of-state licenses as we have here in Oklahoma.
The token allocation of deer permits to out-of-state applicants was meant to pacify neighboring states, but the Legislature was careful not to be overly generous. The number of leftovers offered to non-residents may not exceed 5 percent of the original number available in a given unit. Hardly any permits are not claimed in the better hunting areas, which leaves zilch for out-of-state residents.
That tricky piece of legislation did not stop Oklahoma from retaliating. A law passed in 1993 provides that Oklahoma will not sell a big game tag to anybody who lives in a state where Oklahomans cannot buy a big game tag. Make that anybody who lives in Kansas, the only state that fails the reciprocity test.
So here comes John Croom, who spent 25 of his 41 years in Oklahoma City before following his job four years ago to the southwestern Kansas town of Liberal, calling attention to what remains a troublesome political standoff between the two states.
Croom, who went to school at OU, still likes to hunt with his Oklahoma friends, but the Oklahoma Wildlife Department says Croom may not enjoy a controlled archery deer hunt at the McAlester Army Ammunition Depot this fall.
Croom's buddies from Tulsa will be allowed to hunt the depot, of course, but their pal from north of the border won't, although the three friends drew permits as a party.
"I got the boot just because I'm from Kansas," said Croom. "I'm a little upset."
Croom is correct. Since he resides in Kansas. he must forfeit his right to hunt Oklahoma whitetails until the Sunflower State gets in step with the rest of the country.
Kansas wildlife officials say they have been more liberal with non-resident permits during the past five years, but they've gone about as far as they intend to go, and that's not far enough to satisfy their Oklahoma counterparts.
"It's been an uphill battle to get what we have," said Joe Kramer, director of wildlife for the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks. "We've gone from none to 3,000 non-resident permits (80,000 firearms permits are issued in all)."
"We're trying to maximize the number of those kinds of permits under the management plan that we have for deer in our state," explained Kramer. "Trophy deer management has been a big part of our management plan and just opening up the state to over-the-counter permits would eliminate that. We would lose control."
Richard Hatcher, game chief for the Oklahoma Wildlife Department, says the Kansas law doesn't meet Oklahoma's concept of a reciprocal agreement. He points out that most of the available non-resident permits are for antlerless deer in poor hunting units.
"If they're making an effort, it's a very weak effort," Hatcher said. "They are not offering an equal opportunity for non-residents to hunt deer in Kansas, so by our state law we cannot let Kansans hunt deer in Oklahoma."
He said he has informed Croom that the solution to his problem lies in Topeka, not Oklahoma City.
"It would be to his advantage to urge the Kansas Legislature to allow more non-resident deer hunting," Hatcher said.
Hatcher said he doesn't know how many Kansas residents have been denied deer licenses in Oklahoma, but Croom's is the first one he has heard about.
"It's done automatically," Hatcher said. "He's the first one who has complained."
Croom did a lot of complaining, rattling every cage he could get his hands on in both states without success.
"Ultimately," he said, "I would like to go on this hunt, but I don't think it's going to happen. "They've stopped returning my phone calls. Maybe they'll get it worked out even though it won't help me."
- Covey Bean can be reached via e-mail at [email protected].
Archive ID: 730910
Just like everywhere else good (except Iowa), one corrupt politician ruined it for his own personal gain. Don't recall the name but someone here probably will. This dude was lame duck and he drew up the legislation to basically get rid of the real nonresident quota. And the first thing he did after his term ended was go into outfitting on his mega-ranch, leasing to his NR clients no doubt. That is when this convoluted two county BS was negotiated. I was left holding the bag with 4 preference points, which I still have. I'm guessing this was 10 or 15 years ago? Can't recall. Was just after some greased politician did the same in Illinois where we went from I think an 11,500 NR quota to basically OTC. I hunted Kansas a lot back in the 90's & 00's but quit when the NR's piled up on public. Since then had to get a boat to escape them all. Admired the Iowa BHA so much for fighting off Ravin greased crooks, I joined them even though I live in Indiana, Lol. Iowa is the last man standing that lets their DNR manage the deer, not corrupt politicians. At least for now.
Interesting history, thanks.
There was also the transferable tags where residents could sell their tags to nonresidents for greatly inflated values. It was like the redneck version of Ticketmaster but instead of buying a Taylor Swift seat you were buying a seat for a unit 16 treestand. I’m glad they did away with that.
George Tallman with USO outfitters threatened to sue Kansas and then he went back to NM and threatened to sue them if they didn't ensure outfitters got more tags.He's a real POS
You want an opinion, here you go.
Wiha happened then savy NR hunters decades ahead of us uneducated residents stepped in and leased all the best WIHA. The WIHA book was basically a realestate for lease booklet. Then the outfitters formed and leased even more ground. This caused a mass migration of hunters from major populated areas (eastern Kansas) to find access elsewhere or lease for themselves. In doing so the Mule Deer and western Whitetail herds were decimated and to this day still are taking on way to much hunting pressure.
Pat mentioned Kansas as great. It can be if you get to hunt the areas Pat hunts. Move him any direction more than 20 miles from the super prime area he gets to hunt and he would say otherwise.
Can Kansas get better? Yes but we need a better Unit management system ( smaller singular draw units). With the new e check system the state will have a better idea of pressure and maturity of bucks killed. Disperse the pressure for better hunting statewide. One thing you will hear from every Western Kansas resident is, why do all the eastern Kansas guys come out here, we never go their direction. The answer is access.
Matte, I don’t disagree with you.
Kansas is still great. At least compared to states like NY state, PA, RI, VT, and about 30 other states. You guys who live in the big deer states have no idea how good you have it. The biggest deer on my 320 acres in NY was 80”. With all my neighbors combined (which is 3000 acres) not one person killed a buck during the entire season which includes a 6 week rifle season.
The area I hunt in Kansas is definitely an outlier, but nobody will convince me that your least successful unit is still dramatically better than what most deer hunters experience in their own backyard.
Pat’s right. In 34 years on my deer camp in Southern NY we killed over 300 archery deer and not one hit 100”.
NR tags are unlimited and cheap. Come one, come all..
The above-mentioned timelines are pretty accurate. One thing that is forgotten is the promise to the residents that the NR's wouldn't be able to get a tag every year. If they drew a tag, they would have to sit out a year. That was to keep them from leasing up all the land. That lasted about as long as having crossbows for "handicapped and seniors only".
Before 1994 a nonresident could not hunt deer on his own land. I purchased a lifetime license before I left the state so I am considered a resident for life. Thank God I had that option.
There was that brief period when a landowner could sell a voucher for a NR to purchase a tag. I don't recall how it actually worked but we are very lucky that it went away. There was no way to properly manage the number of tags being sold.
The rules for nonresident landowners are pretty screwy in Kansas. If you have your land in an LLC or in a family trust or simply in a trust that has your name on it, then you don't actually own the land and you don't qualify for any landowner privileges. There are some loopholes but it's not easy for a nonresident landowner to get a tag to hunt on his own property. Very little land is owned under simple title. Most is in an LLC or trust for tax and liability purposes.
I won't make the mistake of claiming Kansas still has some great deer hunting. It all sucks, there are no big deer left and it will never get better.
It was way better and I could draw a second, leftover buck tag. Bullshit corn feeders were unheard of, as were tower blinds. I had over 10,000 acres of written or verbal permission that many other locals also hunted. We got along, had group deer hunts, and rarely argued over spots. Every bowhunter I knew that hunted with a laminated Browning or recurve had killed a Booner, no cams or bait. Leasing was rare. So rare in fact, the few that did so did it for a dollar an acre or less. I remember nonresident landowners were hunting deer every year, but not sure how the tags were procured. I feel the really big bucks ranged farther, and we're more visible due to using feed fields and acorn ridges. There were no corn piles to keep them on dense growth 40 acre parcels.
This is very interesting, I was curious about the politics involved. I'm from oklahoma which has doubled non resident tag sales in the last 8 years from 8,000 in 2014 to 16,000 in 2021 hoping oklahoma can get ahead of the curve on this
I hunted deer in Kansas for the first time in 1995, as a non-resident. We bow hunted my cousin's 330 acre farm. and a few public spots. Back then, Kansas was a relative hunting secret to non-residents, and not many residents bow hunted. Hand shake access to private was easy to get, public lands were rarely hunted, and big bucks were plentiful. We never baited because, frankly, we never needed to, and it was frowned upon by most hunters.
Seemingly overnight, the word got out. Suddenly every "celebrity TV hunter" was making a show in Kansas. Owners of hunting websites starting posting "semi-live hunts" on the internet. And outfitters and non-residents starting leasing up all the best habitat. Hunting over bait became acceptable and commonplace.
In under a decade, hunting in Kansas completely changed. Private access required a healthy bank account because there were bidding wars for leases on the best properties. Every parking spot around public land had non-resident trucks in them. You couldn't walk 50 yards on public without seeing a tree stand. Tag fees went up and hunting quality declined.
I stopped making my annual hunting trip to Kansas around 2005. I was blessed to hunt there as a non-resident for the best period of time. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze for me anymore. I miss those early days, and I truly feel sorry for resident Kansas hunters who have seen their hunting commercialized and capitalized into a sh!t show.
Matt
Michael… it’s definitely happening in Oklahoma. Every place in the Southern region has Texans as “lease neighbors”. I’ve watched a parade of Texans with corn bags walk right past a camera I had hung. This was public land last year. Baiting is illegal on public. And yes, I knew the people and knew they were from Texas, and in fact, one was from California. I’m surprised they didn’t take my camera. Although, they did turn it 90 degrees off of the trail.
Oklahoma needs to raise tag fees, NOW, and limit tags. I think many are too invested to turn back for a few hundred bucks of tag fees though. Sorry, don’t mean to make this an Oklahoma derail thread.
GG nailed it! Well written.
Now tell us what you guys see in KS's future for deer hunting?
I had about that same time window as Matt, 1995 to 2005. Same observations. The early years were pretty incredible. Long gone now.
Interesting that Oklahoma is up 8k and Kansas has about 8k unsuccessful NR’s in the draw currently. 1:1 correlation, probably not, but imagine that’s the backup plan for many. I’d say Oklahoma is well “behind the curve” simply because they still allow NR’s to kill two bucks on over the counter tags.
The key to Kansas’ successful herd management is the one buck, per hunter, per year limit. Most other big buck states allow Residents (and in some states NR’s) 2 or 3 bucks per year. Each big buck state manages differently but has the same challenge. Supply is limited and demand is increasing.
KB… good point, and something I’m ALL for. I’ve got bow hunters that hunt next to where we hunt that will kill a 4/5 year old and then turn around and kill a 3.5 yr old 120” buck. One buck tag across the state needs to happen.
Agree 100%. One buck tag for the year makes guys stop and think. If they want to end their season on a forky, go for it. If they want to pass that basket to shoot something bigger later? Go for it. Kansas, Ohio, allow one buck only.
One buck… our quality goes up…. Then we might have the same problems to talk about that they do on the Kansas board. I don’t know.. maybe not. I’d support one buck tag for non res but not sure I would for resident for various reasons. To stick with this topic… and purely anecdotal… we pheasant hunt in western Kansas and have for years. Still see good bucks. Nothing like we used to see back in the day. And haven’t seen a mule deer in over a decade.
Quail hunter. Where are you hunting in western Kansas
Yeah, let’s focus on minimizing buck tags to promote horn porn instead of addressing the real issues that have ruined hunting in Kansas. Great plan. SMH.
Matt
Spend most of our time now in the Kinsley area. To what Gray Ghost said, are we or aren’t we having trouble with bringing young people into the sport?
Buck I'm after
Buck I'm after
Cutting to one buck tag would be great for guy's who chase Inches but not for the majority of Oklahoma hunters who are more concerned with opportunity than harvesting a Boone&Crockett. Our deer harvest have been consistently high, big deer are killed every year, why change that for a minority who want better odds at a Booner? The focus on scores and book bucks IMO is to the determinant of the sport. Our state being known for big deer certainly won't help the growing numbers of non resident hunters. Also what's wrong with a guy shooting a 150 one day and a 120 the next if it makes him happy and he has the tags? I've done that I've also not killed a buck this year cause I'm stuck on one buck. Different strokes for different folks. Something does need to be done about the unlimited non resident tag sales. A cap on the number sold and then a NR point system.
“Different strokes for different folks.” Yep! That’s why I’d like to see a one buck state.
Also, you say “majority”. I don’t think you’re correct in that assessment. Also, myself, I’m not looking for a booner, because I’m a realist. I’m looking to kill a mature deer. ;)
Those pictures just make your stomach turn, can it get any lower?
Sometimes I wonder why folks even picked up a bow to begin with. Was there never a challenge, or thrill of pursuit in your mind?
The majority of KS and OK has been diminished to shooting trained livestock. Eliminate that alone, and the herd as well as the heritage will rebound.
According to the 2020 survey by the ODWC 64% did not support switching from two bucks to one 30% supported it 6% unsure.
sitO certainly didn't pick it up to fill your expectations! Here's one with no feeder or plot for your delicate stomach.
The future of Kansas deer hunting is entirely up the landowners. We have less than 2% of public land. Lease prices are insane. My taxidermist leases his 160 acres for $9k. For reference, I leased 6,000 acres for less than that between 2005-2008. If you haven't bought a hunting spot by now, you better have a big bank account. Small 80 acre properties of scrub brush, a feeder, and some deer pictures on it are bringing $300k. 10 years ago, they barely brought $1200/acre. It's up to landowners now, whether they lease to individual hunters or outfitters, or WIHA. Public hunting on good areas is pretty packed anymore, and likelihood of killing a big buck is pretty slim. All of my deer hunting buddies from high school have given up deer hunting and went to coyote calling or waterfowl hunting instead.
“According to the 2020 survey by the ODWC 64% did not support switching from two bucks to one 30% supported it 6% unsure.“
That’s because the state didn’t survey the majority.
Are you saying the ODWC purposely skewed the results? Or just stating that the majority of Oklahoma deer hunter's weren't surveyed? Most surveys don't survey the entire group just a random segment to try and get a feel. Is it perfect no does it give you a good idea of the wants of the majority if done on the level yes. Anecdotally the survey goes with how the majority of deer hunters I know feel.
The MAJORITY wasn’t surveyed.
"The majority of KS and OK has been diminished to shooting trained livestock. Eliminate that alone, and the herd as well as the heritage will rebound.
Worth repeating, IMO. Nothing about those feeder pics suggest "fair chase" to me.
I remember, in the not too distant past, when feeders and trail cameras where just a Texas high fence thing. They were considered crutches for hunting wannabes. I even remember when Pat used to try to hide the fact he hunted over bait in his "Semi-live Kansas Hunts". He never mentioned it in his daily reports, and he was careful not to show it in his pics and videos, because he knew he would get a ton of grief from many well-respected hunters.
My how times have changed.
Matt
"The majority of KS and OK has been diminished to shooting trained livestock. Eliminate that alone, and the herd as well as the heritage will rebound.“
Oh, it’s not just Kansas and Oklahoma. You both know that.
There’s more than just three, but most won’t chime in. But… you got me trying to figure out which one of those guys is me. I gotta be the one in purple. The tall one is Sito. ;)
I was thinking jerry curl guy but you can be Charlie Murphy if you want. I'm sure there's many that feel your way and plenty more who do exactly what I do.
I wonder how many less people would hunt if deer didn’t have antlers?
I'm not a hater. My stance on baiting hasn't wavered since I began hunting. The fact that it's become so widely accepted and practiced is more of a disappointment to me than anything. I like to think bow hunters are a special breed who devote themselves to learning their quarry's habits, reading sign, and developing strategies to get close enough for a clean ethical kill. Not corn-toting livestock killers.
Not that that should matter to you, because it shouldn't. I've learned that some don't hunt for the same reasons I do. I'll never understand or condone baiting, but I don't expect everyone to share my opinions, either.
Matt
Actually the #1 most effective management tool is keeping firearms out of November. #2 is either short firearm seasons or OBR take your pick. But I can confirm another thing. OBR has zero effect on public land. Ours in Indiana is trash. As soon as one guy tags out his buck, there’s another one with his unfilled buck tag eager to fill his boots. Throw in 16 days of November prime rut firearms with no hunter quotas and you got a recipe for dinks, Lol.
Pat,
You may be right on the units being better but that is part of the issue is our unit sizes. We need smaller units that are each better managed. I hope we are on the right track with the e check system. As a bow hunter who started in the 1980s the decline is real. It is disheartening going to KDWP commission meeting after commission meeting where the Mule Deer is constantly brought up yet nothing is being done.
Matt, I've read you where have been critical of out of state hunters opinions and suggestions on Colorado issues (wolf, corner crossing, non-residents hunting). I'm curious do you have land, family, or even hunt here in Oklahoma? Perhaps you're an expert on hunting in all the states? Many of us in Okla choose not to bait, even though at this time it's legal on private property. Embry has mentioned before that isn't how he prefers to hunt. Your comment concerning the gentleman in Maine who wanted to cut a couple of apple trees on his own property shows another example of your disdain towards anyone who differs with you. I hope this doesn't come across a personal attack but...
I grew up in Kansas, I remember when I was a kid, early eighties I think, dad could only get a tag every other year. There were Mule deer half way across the state and pockets of them even further east. I shot my first deer in 1989 or 1990 and by that time you could get a tag every year but there were no non-resident tags yet. The first couple of years for non-resident hunting were pretty limited for tags and public land wasn't that crowded. Kansas was a Pheasant hunting state back then, lots more hunters came from out of state for birds. When the TV hunters all started to tout the deer in Kansas the number of non-residents skyrocketed and access to private ground became more difficult. Lots of the areas I hunted before the change were done with deer drives in bigger groups; after the influx, I rarely remember deer drives.
Canepole, no offense taken, and thank you for your comments. I will reflect on them.
I've only hunted hogs in Oklahoma, back when landowners welcomed hunters to kill as many as they could, free of charge. My comments about baiting deer weren't aimed specifically at OK, or KS, but rather at baiting in general. I'm glad that you don't bait.
You're right, my comment to the guy who wanted to cut down apple trees was out of line. I regretted that post right after hitting the submit button. I have a single ancient apple tree on my property that I've nurtured for 23 years. I have no idea how it got there because they are rare in my neck of the woods. In most years, a late spring hail storm knocks all the buds off, so it rarely produces many apples. When it does produce, it's a deer magnet. The thought of intentionally cutting one down is just foreign to me, I guess.
Matt
Matt, thanks for your kind words. I've enjoyed many of you threads and responses over the years.
"You guys who live in the big deer states have no idea how good you have it....
The area I hunt in Kansas is definitely an outlier, but nobody will convince me that your least successful unit is still dramatically better than what most deer hunters experience in their own backyard."
Pat's comments are spot-on. I've lived in the midwest for almost 20 years now, have hunted Kansas in half a dozen different areas of the state, and several other midwest states. I am a relatively new resident of Iowa, but I grew up in the deep South. Guys who know nothing other than midwest whitetail hunting truly have no idea how good they have it, even in the states that aren't considered the "top" midwest states.
I keep a close eye on land for sale in Kansas, Iowa and Missouri, and I'll believe that Kansas hunting is no longer any good when I stop seeing land listings with all kinds of good bucks in the photos section. Saw a new one today. Same deal, multiple really nice, mature bucks in the photos.
Embry , the guy in the purple is BUCK NASTY !
KS residents know exactly how good they have it. That's why there is so much emotion involved when discussing it. To say otherwise is kind of insulting. We also know how good we HAD it and have been watching it slip away for 2 decades. Nobody wants to loose something great, even if it's still better than what someone else has.
Great bucks shot in every state and I always wonder why deer hunters from those states do not work on their goals for deer at home. Instead they come to Kansas with a dream, as a dream is easier. How often do you guys sit and never see a deer in prime habitat? Happens to guys all the time here Kansas left to hunt public access areas. Kansas is only 30% of what it use to be and it is not because of NR alone. Many, many factors that could be changed would increase herd health, age class and buck to doe ratios but nobody wants to get rid of the easy buttons.
I laugh at all these nonresident that show up and shoot a 140" when they could shoot the same size buck at home. My neighbor has owned KS ground for 4 years and his biggest buck are a pair of bucks from his farm in Georgia that scored in the 160"s. He's pretty disappointed in the age groups we see crossing our farms, and he has the best 80 in the County, often hosting more than 30 different deer.
"I laugh at all these nonresident that show up and shoot a 140" when they could shoot the same size buck at home."
I'm very curious to know in how many states you think bowhunters have a *realistic* chance at shooting a 140" buck on the average piece of hunting ground in their state, with a bow? Not "do bucks like that exist where they live", but "do they have a realistic chance at actually getting a shot at a buck of that quality with a bow" there? By my count, there are 8 (TX,KS,IA,MO,IL,WI,OH,KY), with a few others possibly on the bubble. All are in the midwest except Texas. And having grown up for a couple decades in Texas, pretty much the whole eastern half of the state doesn't hold a good chance for a bowhunter to kill a 140" buck, though in south Texas and parts of west Texas they're easier to come by. I've bowhunted whitetail in 7 of those 8 states above, and in another 7 states that aren't part of that list, so I have a pretty good sample size for comparison.
First time I bowhunted the midwest was Kansas in my teens in the late 90's, and I was hooked on midwest bowhunting forever after. Do I love bowhunting the midwest because killing big bucks is easy? No, because it's not. I love it because there *are* big bucks here, and you're only going to have a realistic chance at killing a big buck where they actually live in any numbers.
I'd love to see anyone who grew up bowhunting whitetails in the midwest kill a 140" buck, or even a 130" buck, with any kind of consistency in a lot of those states that guys come from in the east and south to hunt the midwest. Very, very few can do it on the average piece of hunting ground with any kind of consistency, including the guys who grew up bowhunting those states. Can you up the odds by hunting highly managed ground in those states? Sure. The same is true in the midwest, but in so many places in the midwest, even "average" hunting ground holds good bucks. Not to mention that the average 3 1/2 year old buck in the midwest likely has 15-25 more inches of bone on their head than the same age of bucks in the south and east.
I've hunted Missouri and shot a 135", Oklahoma, shot a 150", and my neighbor has shot 2 bucks in the 160"s on his farm in Georgia. He has yet to kill anything that big on his farm in KS and he's owned it 4 years and runs feeders and cell cams. Other acquaintances I know that hunt Tennessee, Arkansas, and Mississippi have all killed bucks over 140". My friend in Michigan tried to tell me there are no big bucks around him and then found out his neighbor shot a tall 140".
I’d like to see a photo of your Oklahoma, bow killed, 150” buck. Thanks.
Embry
It's Thornton. You will have a long wait
Yep, it’s all about the inches of antlers. You fools will never learn. I’m out of this thread.
Matt
Fools? Apparently you’ve learned everything, eh? Don’t let the door hit ya in the a$$.
This has gone off the rails. Final thought: If you need bait to kill a deer in the "midwest" there's a 99% chance you're gay...not that there's everything wrong with that.
Calling people you don't agree with gay what are you 12? At least we agree on one thing this has gone completely off the rails.
Glad I bailed on Kansas years ago and chose to focus on closer to home Illinois. Especially since I bought a LL back in 06. Invested a lot of time scouting tons of public land culling out the low/mid quality properties. As a result, I got good stuff to myself these days, and my success has greatly increased. And all at a dirt cheap resident price.
FWIW, I’ve got a buddy that has a lease in Kansas. He’s killed 6-7 deer in wv that would make the pope and young minimum if he ever decided to list them. A couple could go eitherway. We aren’t official scorers but, we know how to do it. So, at best, let’s say 8 possibles. In 20 years of hunting.
8 years ago he started hunting Kansas. He’s killed a buck every year there. The smallest one we scored at 134 and change.
Kansas may not be what it was. It might headed the wrong way. But, it’s a heaven for eastern whitetail hunters. I promise you that.
"FWIW, I’ve got a buddy that has a lease in Kansas. He’s killed 6-7 deer in wv that would make the pope and young minimum if he ever decided to list them."
And I'm guessing there's a pretty good chance he used bait to kill at least some of those deer? Not making judgements, because obviously you can use bait in Kansas also, but West Virginia would decidedly not be on anyone's list of trophy states where you could go hunt the average piece of ground and bow-kill a nice one without the use of bait, whereas you'd have a much better chance at that in Kansas. Yes, there are some bona-fide monsters in the bow-only counties in the southern part of the state, but most of the big ones that get killed down there by bowhunters get killed with the aid of bait of one type or another.
Have you guys ever heard the terms. Don't try and turn the place you move to, like the place left. This is exactly how we feel in Kansas. Like a bunch of California or Seattle residents that want to call this place home during hunting season.
You guys make it sound like only nonresident hunters bait. Residents bait too, and they bait a lot. Kansas residents want baiting to stay legal - and you guys know it.
Tell you guys what…I bet a good number of nonresidents would support a prohibition on baiting. I sure would. So lobby your KDFW to outlaw baiting and I’ll continue to apply either way. So would all my buddies.
I actually agree with you on baiting. Just be honest about it. The residents of Kansas are the reason why baiting continues to proliferate in your state.
I have hunted Kansas last 4 years. Ill be honest, I dont hunt it for the big bucks. I have a lease in Buffalo county WI that his great deer hunting. I hunt with a guy who has been there for over 20 years. We hunt some handshake properties and a WIHA area. The public land is better than anything public in WI thats for sure. I hunt there because it is a cool place to hunt, western whitetails are so different than back home. I love the people and the country. I got lucky one year and hunted some premier land just by meeting some local guy in a cafe. 6 miles of riverbottom that some had not been hunted in 40 years.He has killed bucks there that would make me shit myself.He invited me there just cause he thought us hunting with stickbows was cool. You sure wont find anyone in WI that would do that.
I appreciate that Pat, hard as it is for me to believe. So, next year will you do a real hunt when you come to KS?
Lol, I got the whole state of Wisconsin in my work area so could get my travel and some hotels reimbursed plus a half price tag but would never do it based on the shear number of hunters residing there. And I see a lot of them in other Midwest states on public. That tells me all I need to know about their public land quality.
So Pat why don't you do a non baited hunt in Kansas?
sitO and Orion
Please direct me to the books you have both written on how to pattern, set up on, and kill trophy whitetail in Kansas and other Big buck states that you have written.
I'm always looking for new techniques for beating those critters at their game.
Please include pictures of your big ones
I have done it’, you just weren’t paying attention. My 2nd largest buck in Kansas was a 166 killed on video without bait.
Shot as he walked the edge of a wheat field. 5.5 year old, 16pt Nontypical.
Of course, I got slandered and accused of baiting this buck by the Kansas guys - despite the video clearly shows the buck walking without any bait in sight.
I have killed trophy bucks in Kansas, Iowa and Ohio without bait - but it’s not good enough for the haters.
Focus your energy on changing the rules then I’ll be more than happy to hunt a level playing field. Until then I will enjoy whatever legal hunting methods are utilized by the outfitter without shame or apology.
I have no idea how many residents hunt over bait. However, in my hunting group or other hunting groups of residents I know (around 20 hunters) nobody baits.
How do you agree with Sito on baiting but hunt over bait? How does that work? I guess I can’t relate as I have 90 days to hunt and I don’t have to pay a guide. Maybe I’d feel differently if I paid $5K for a week of hunting. IDK.
Many years I didn’t tag out but it was still a great season. I don’t have to pinch a tag to have a great hunt. If the only way to have a great hunt is punching a tag then I probably wouldn’t have bowhunted for +35 years. I wouldn’t ever hunt over bait. I’d never get any gratification from that even with shootings a +170. But like I said I can’t relate. I’m there for the experience and not the kill. Putting a tag on a good buck is just a bonus.
IMO baiting should be illegal. I’m less impressed with a 175 over bait compared to a 135 without. But as long as it’s legal I’m not going to blast someone doing it.
That's a great buck Pat, and you're right I don't remember seeing the video...maybe you could post a link?
There is, and has been, "energy" focused on eliminating bait, xguns, excessive tags, transfer tags, mule deer doe tags, etc. Our system is flawed here, the KDWP see's the challenges and sets parameters only to be reversed or shot down by the liberal legislators. Money, mostly outside money, has proven more powerful.
You admit it's not a "level playing field" for those of us who are playing. I hope you, and others, choose to do what's right, even if nobody's watching.
Perhaps what would be most fair and best for all would be a North American wide ban on all attractants for the purpose of hunting. No bait, no food plots, no hunting within 1/2 mile of any crop that wildlife feeds on, no baits for bears or carnivores. Just like migratory birds.
In Alberta, I believe food plots are illegal. Any crop must he harvestable and harvested.
I'm not sure we need to be "told", certainly we can discern what hunting is on our own?
"I'm not sure we need to be "told", certainly we can discern what hunting is on our own"
Obviously some can't and do need to be told what hunting is (should be) to them.
Not telling you anything you don't know
"If you need bait to kill a deer in the "midwest" there's a 99% chance you're gay...not that there's everything wrong with that."
I was unaware of this!
Kansas will hopefully understand the value of our resources, ban baiting to enhance it and try to save what is left of the Mule Deer herd.
Growing up I read every outdoor magazine I could get my hands on. I remember reading multiple articles on tracking, finding sign and how to hunt it. Great articles on stalking, glassing and pinch points. Other articles on scents, decoys and rattling. The one thing I can never recall reading about was filling a feeder and sitting there and perhaps even if there was an article like that I would probably find it pretty boring.
Rocky there is no bag a doe requirement in WI. Pending where you hunt there are free doe tags or no doe kill in the north where there are no deer due to wolves. (Peer reviewed) Its easier to get permission or hunt better quality land in Kansas than WI We did loose one of our private spots after two young guys moved in with giant feeders, a bunch of cameras and stands, and crossbows. They even left one cocked and loaded crosser sitting next to their blind while they were gone. I was sick when I saw it and moved on. I should have taken pics but didnt.
“Our system is flawed here, the KDWP see's the challenges and sets parameters only to be reversed or shot down by the liberal legislators.”
Sito- Maybe you forgot this too but it ain’t the Ds voting for this stuff…it’s the Rs. I knew a lot of good biologists in KDWP that were part of the exodus over the years. Many during Brownback. He appointed an accountant as the head of KDWP for goodness sake and added the T. Those things you listed above mostly came from R state legislators from out west that were influenced by outfitters. If you’re going call something out the be honest.
Here’s who pushes the KS transfer tags. Do you see the R Sito?
I wish I could find the original bill sponsors for legalizing deer bating in KS. I’m pretty sure they weren’t “liberal.”
You're right Ryan, the main proponents...and opponents of the recent push for T-tags were Republican. Maybe I should have said "the liberal policies of the legislators"?
I never knew baiting in KS was such a problem. I killed some nice bucks there and never even seen the feeders but it makes sense as I was hunting public ground. I recently went back in the spring and those tin man looking feeders were very apparent and much more visible.
I will say, as special as WT deer are as an animal, there is no animal even close that makes my stomach turn as it does with the WT hunting crowd. The stuff people do, tactics employed, jealousy and just the overall madness is beyond hope. I mean think about it, is there another species that will make a guy driving down a 4 lane interstate stop, ges out and pose with a road kill?
I had a guy see me walking across a field one afternoon and he parked his truck, and ran out in the field with his work clothes on to tell me he was going to hunt the same place i was going that evening. 500 yds! Lucky for me, I left and went to another place as I killed the buck dreams are made of, but WTF? Who does that? WT hunters that’s who. Think I’m wrong? Browse some of these posts as of late and see what guys go to kill “their deer”
I still can’t figure out how someone doesn’t agree with baiting, but still “hunts” over bait.
By the way, if you shot it over bait you didn’t outsmart or fool him, you trained him. Or had someone do it for you…ugggh. If you’re ok with that then so am I.
I think regulating leasing would benefit Kansas hunting the most, or any state for that matter.
If I had any say, I'd propose to eliminate non-resident leasing. If you want to have exclusive hunting rights in another state, move there and become a resident.
Second, I would propose a system that required landowners to open up a certain amount of their land to the public for every acre they leased. If they want to financially benefit from a public resource (wildlife) they should give something back to the public in return.
Lastly, I would take a hard look at regulating outfitting. I would require landowner outfitters to be licensed, insured, bonded, and meet all of the other requirements of a licensed outfitter. As I understand it, that is not the case currently in Kansas. I'd also set quotas for the number of outfitting licenses that are issued in each hunting unit.
Just a few thoughts.
Matt
How many whitetail hunters that are against baiting deer are also bear hunters that are OK with baiting them?
Just like a 1.5 yr old buck to a corn pile… they just can’t help themselves.
GG, didn't you earlier this season pass a buck because "you already had some that big" in reference to the antlers not the meat yield? And yes, you were unselfishly "leaving" to a lesser accomplished underling, but you left no doubt had the buck been the bigger one you'd seen pre-reason , you would have shot it.
"I still can’t figure out how someone doesn’t agree with baiting, but still “hunts” over bait."
I'll type this slow so you can figure it out. I'm unafraid, and unapologetic about my opinion on this, so here goes:
I have fun on baited hunts. I see a lot of deer and am generally more successful at punching a tag. I don't think it's necessarily the best way to kill a smart, old buck as they usually go nocturnal when they hit baits. It's also not my preferred way to hunt. But I won't lie and say I don't enjoy it, I do. I also enjoy hunting deer in states where baiting is not allowed. And newsflash - I have killed mature bucks there too.
While baiting is not my preferred way to hunt, I believe that for some locations baiting is necessary - like urban zones where you are hunting 2 acre parcels and you really need to make a close, perfect shot. Also, where we bowhunt in Saskatchewan baiting is almost required. Nobody would likely see a deer without bait since the deer density is low and you are hunting tens of thousands of acres of bush. Those of you who've been there get it.
But the midwest is different. Let's take Ohio and Kansas as I see a lot of similarities between them. You can be successful in both locations without bait. Last year I took a PY Buck on my ground in Ohio as he entered a brassica field. I have never killed a buck over bait in Ohio even though it's legal and everyone does it - and I mean everyone.
And that's where I agree with Sito and others about baiting. It has completely changed how people hunt in Ohio (and Kansas). I am bordered by small properties and every resident is baiting. Some of them are within 30 yards of my borders. It's obnoxious. So I bait. Generally not to hunt, but to compete with their baits. Same in Kansas, my outfitter would probably love to see baiting go away. It just needs to go away for everyone which levels the playing field. That's why I would support it if Kansas or Ohio made it illegal. If that happened, the success rate in Ohio will plummet. Baiting is all many of these guys know, they have grown up hunting corn piles and sitting in little blinds with crossbows. So I understand the opposition. But it doesn't make them bad people, and I don't put them down for enjoying a baited hunt.
Ambush, yes, as my deer hunting career has evolved, I've become more selective about the animals I kill. I enjoy the additional challenge of hunting the most mature bucks I can find. I don't focus necessarily on antler size, but rather age. I'd rather eat tag soup, then kill a young buck before his prime. That wasn't always the case in my younger years.
As for the young buck with good genes that I passed last season, my young hunting buddy missed him clean , twice, on consecutive days. We later determined his new range finder was off by 7-8 yards, which contributed to his misses. I felt sorry for my buddy, but I also know that buck did a lot of breeding, so I was happy with my choice to pass on him.
That said, I still think the "any animal with a bow is a trophy" mantra should apply. I don't think we should impose our personal trophy standards on others. If a hunter is thrilled with a 1.5 year old buck, or a big fat doe for the freezer, then I'm happy for him. It really irritates me when some guys complain about others legally killing animals that they would pass on. Worse yet, is the "my deer" mentality that is so prevalent these days.
Matt
“If a hunter is thrilled with a 1.5 year old buck, or a big fat doe for the freezer, then I'm happy for him.”
As long as that doe or little buck is taken under the tenets of what you consider fair and ethical?
It’s also a puzzle to me how the same guy can offer all kinds of advice on baiting bears, absolutely trash a deer baiter, then brag about the success of his “kill plot” for whitetails on his private.
And don’t get me wrong, I admire the guys that can really pour themselves into plotting and improving as it often is more about the process than the ends. Same as I know a couple of guys who trail cam enthusiastically, but seldom if ever bother to hunt what they find.
I also admire the hunter that has some private ground that they now know intimately and can hunt it like dancing with a favourite partner. When the moves line up, it’s fulfilling.
People way too often survey everything from their own perch and only see it from that perspective. Maybe let your mind take a mental drone trip over the bigger landscape.
Regulating leasing and outfitting is an excellent idea. They go hand in hand, and most Western states and Canadian provences regulate how many outfitters can operate in an area. They are called concessions, and they are pertinent to management of wild game resources.
"As long as that doe or little buck is taken under the tenets of what you consider fair and ethical?"
Absolutely. Like I said earlier, I like to think bowhunters are a special breed who choose to use a more primitive weapon because it takes a higher level of hunting skills to be successful. To me, baiting is the exact opposite of that. I'm more impressed by a hunter making a 500 yard clean kill with a rifle than I am with killing a conditioned animal over bait with a bow.
But, as I also said earlier, I don't expect everyone to share my opinions.
Matt
“But, as I also said earlier, I don't expect everyone to share my opinions.”
But those that don’t should expect you to look down on them.
I’ll type this slow again so you understand. “If you’re ok with that then so am I.” You like it but don’t like it. Ok.
“ By the way, if you shot it over bait you didn’t outsmart or fool him, you trained him. Or had someone do it for you…ugggh. If you’re ok with that then so am I.”
You sound a bit less than ambivalent in that statement.
Maybe because I’m not a whitetail hunter, I don’t get the hate. I’ve shot a half dozen and three with a bow and none over bait. Whitetails really seem to some expose some inner selves.
I see very little evidence that most bowhunters are in it for the challenge. I suspect longer seasons during the rut is the biggest driver.
“ And I'm guessing there's a pretty good chance he used bait to kill at least some of those deer? Not making judgements, because obviously you can use bait in Kansas also, but West Virginia would decidedly not be on anyone's list of trophy states where you could go hunt the average piece of ground and bow-kill a nice one without the use of bait, whereas you'd have a much better chance at that in Kansas. Yes, there are some bona-fide monsters in the bow-only counties in the southern part of the state, but most of the big ones that get killed down there by bowhunters get killed with the aid of bait of one type or another.”
I won’t claim to know what most hunters do concerning bait. But, I know what my buddies and I have/are doing.
I’ve killed deer over bait. However, I’ve never killed a mature deer over it with a bow. Buck or doe. I personally think it turns deer nocturnal. My friends experiences reinforce that belief.
So, I stopped doing it.
I’m not sure if my friend baits in Kansas or not. He doesn’t in WV anymore. I can’t remember any of us killing a big buck over bait. In the bow only counties either.
FWIW, I don’t know of many guys using bait when hunting a mature deer in WV. I’m sure there is and I’m sure there are book deer shot over it every year. But, it doesn’t take a mature deer to score pope and young.
To clarify my intention of my first post, it wasn’t to compare WV and Kansas. Because There is no comparison. It was to state that while it might not be what it was, Kansas deer hunting is multitudes better than most anything east of the Mississippi River. With the exception of a handful of states. And even at that, it’s more areas than states.
I don't "bait" to kill deer over a pile of corn way more effective ways to kill deer especially big deer. Where I hunt there's zero agriculture and I mean zero not much arable land. Plenty of cover and water on my land food has always been the limiting factor. I plant close to 5 acres in plots but I'm limited on what I can grow. Planting corn only ends in being overrun with hogs. I've found the best way to up my deer population is a combo of food plots and gravity feeders with corn from August-March. I find it laughable that guys who hunt in Kansas over cut cornfields that have more scrap corn left in them then I feed in a year can't see the irony of hating someone hunting over a feeder that could be filled with corn from the same field that the combine didn't miss. Like I said earlier different strokes for different folks it's a nuanced subject but many seem unwilling to accept that some do things different from them.
Push, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Do what makes you happy. That’s the important thing.
Couldn't have said it any better than Push did.
Pushco, the difference seems to be if you own or have permission on that corn or bean field.
"I find it laughable that guys who hunt in Kansas over cut cornfields that have more scrap corn left in them then I feed in a year can't see the irony of hating someone hunting over a feeder that could be filled with corn from the same field that the combine didn't miss. "
I find it laughable that you don't see the difference between learning the patterns of how deer use a large ag field, which can change daily depending on several variables, versus training deer to come to a specific spot 20 yards from a stand or blind.
I'm also curious why the hogs overrun your planted corn plots, but don't overrun your feeder?
Matt
Pretty sure he said he isn't baiting to kill a deer over the bait.....
I'm pretty sure he equated hunting over a feeder to hunting over a cut cornfield.
Matt
Matt they play hell on the feeders look at the above pic had that down spout has been ripped off multiple times. Hogs find a feeder and you get a little destruction they find a whole field by the time they get done looks like a drunk with a dozer went through it very labor intensive to fix. Also why are you assuming I'm hunting 20 yards from the feeder in a blind? The best stands are on the trails to the north and south that parallel the food plot/feeder the big guy's use to scent check it. I've hunted this property since I was 6 and know it better then anybody alive today. Knowing a property dosen't put more deer on the land. You hunt a area with mass agricultural crops everywhere keeping the deer numbers way higher than they'd ever be without them and can't see why a guy wouldn't wanna try and replicate that? I understand the differences and the similarities you seem unable to see.
William, I didn't assume you were hunting over your feeder. But you did equate hunting over a feeder to hunting over a cut cornfield. That's what I responded to.
I'm happy you don't hunt over your feeder.
Matt
I think comparing a cut corn field to feeders would work if you had a few hundred feeders spread out equidistant over a couple hundred acres.
So you walk the perimeter of the private ag and find two or three very prominent trails. You put up three stands and sit the one the wind allows you to. Or you sit in your pickup and watch the field for half hour for several days, set your stands and hunt. I'm sure you don't just wander around that big bait station hoping to bump into a old dumb buck.
Maybe one of the N Saskatchewan Outfitters could have a special on to drop some of the super hunters into the big woods and see how many mature bucks hit the dirt with "real hunting".
I have sat for twenty or more days in more than one November and never saw a mature buck in bow range. I could watch them out of range scent and sight checking, but unlike horseshoes .......
Some people better have their safety harnesses on because it's a looooong fall from that high perch.
I think the OP says Kansas in the title. Even with your scenarios the hunter has to figure out the buck and not train them to do what they want.
^^^ You are correct, it is about Kansas and I’m off track unrest regard.
What percentage of your Kansas deer hunting is done on private land? What percentage of the deer you’ve killed Kansas came from private land?
95% private. 100% of feeders are on private as it is illegal on public in KS.
So it’s landowners that keep baiting alive and legal, in Kansas.
Most of the farmers I know don’t hunt. It’s mostly those leasing their land to hunt. Most of the word of mouth permission guys in my experience don’t use feeders as they are typically residents. Especially if they are over 40. I do see a lot of younger resident hunters use feeders. They are impressionable I guess.
Completely observational and I can’t prove it.
Yep KS. No peer review or link. Never happened and is not true. Same standards as the rest of us
Gee didn’t I just say that Captain Obvious
Don't know. Very seldom read anything you post. But in fairness and because I don't give a shit, yes you did and you are right again
Grey Ghost, you couldn't be more wrong. I've owned my place 12 years and I don't use feeders. It's a corn/soybean rotation and only 50 acres are tillable. On average, 12-15 different bucks visit it regularly during our 3+ months of deer season. They vary their entrances to the grain fields over a half mile spread. You can literally sit there for weeks in a row and never have a mature buck in bow range. Much different than camping over a pile or feeder that brings them to an exact, couple Sq foot area.
Thornton, I think you just agreed with me.
Matt
I have to agree with flatlander on this one. Most of the working landowners I know don't care one bit about how someone hunts their land. As long as they don't make a mess, leave gates open, or offend the misses somehow they're good with it. My take is legislators are listening to groups with money; insurance, outfitters, large absentee land owners, etc.
After elk hunting for a month and a half, putting 300 miles on my boots, carrying big heavy bloody packs of meat out in the dark, sleeping in tents when below 0, chasing bears off, ect its awesome to go sit and watch deer! Im hardly ever more than a half mile from my truck its so nice. After hunting so hard for 45 days in a row its relaxing to go hunt whitetail. I bought my first place in Kansas 12 years ago. I had 50k down and a med size payment. From buying and selling land over those 12 years i own 360arc and a nice 3500sq' house on 5 arcs out right. Ive even killed some nice deer over the years. But i bait so none of that matters. Im a failure.
You hunted the Elk, and you killed the deer...but you certainly didn't hunt the deer.
And if your right im ok with it because its exactly what i want to do. Its my deer to kill. My tag. My land.
sitO, you are a rare and fortunate hunter to have found enough unbroken public land miles from any human encroachment to hunt. And the bonus of organic meat from deer that have never ingested poisons from human manipulation of the land. But for the rest of the less lucky, and I've asked you this before, how far does one have to be from a man made crop to be considered "real hunting"? In yards or miles would be great. Thanks.
Sorry, I guess I didn't realize who the original poster was Grey Ghost.
Ambush- all deer on crop ground ingest poisons. Most grain crops are genetically modified to resist and accept herbicides, and the seeds are coated in neonictides. Refer to my statement above on killing deer over crops vs bait. There is no comparison. If there was, we'd all be killing archery bucks every year like the baiters do.
Thorton, my mistake. I thought the wild deer you guys kill would be pure and free from any artificial subsidies.
I doubt that most of the guys arguing against baiting care much what the deer have been eating, but how the deer was pursued. The simple argument is that hunting 80 acres of corn is different than hunting a pile of corn. Not much concern to me either way.
Thorton, what do you plant on your tillable fifty acres? Do you harvest the crop all at once to sell? Do you leave strategic pieces unharvested?
This...
This...
Corn/soybean rotation. It is harvested once a year. Nothing is left uncut. This year my farmer cut it early. Between the 80 doves, flock of turkeys, whatever waterfowl and twenty some deer, all the corn left on the ground was completely gone by end of rut.
Is not this.
Is not this.
I see deer eating corn that wouldn't be there if not for the hand of man in both pics.
MichaelArnette, it seemed initially a harmless post!
Canepole. Most of them always start that way.
Michael dislikes the bait too, ask him, all men do.
"all men do"
Really, peer review and a link please
Anyone using the term “peer review” should seriously consider turning in their man card. Yes, KS needs to re-evaluate the amount of deer tags issued statewide for all species, manner of take, etc. for better herd management going forward.
For those of you that feed bait…you ain’t “hunting” in any sense of the word. If you do, please put an ****asterisk on the plaque of your deer mount for all the world to see and know.
If the guy next to where you hunt, puts out bait, do you stop hunting
I guess Robert needs a peer review to determine if someone is a man. He must swing "Left".
I mean really how hard are you hunting if your less than 1/2 mile from your truck. Whitetail is not a hard hunt no matter how you do it.
Then give it a go without your crutch.
Probably ought not take advice on how to hunt WT, from someone who's never actually hunted WT.
First 3 whitetail i killed in Kansas weren't over bait. Or anywhere close. First buck i shoot was 10 am in a pinch point between ag fields by Potwin. I was learning to use a grunt call and he came charging in. 142" 8 point.
Well that sounds way better. What changed?
Honestly i prefer to hunt whitetail in Kansas over bait. I find plenty of challenges in all the other hunts i do. I really enjoy watching deer and all the other animals. I love all kinds of hunting.
So it's no challenge, and please dont say "hunt". Guess I mistook you as "hardcore", all the meat packing and what not.
SitO. I know this is no surprise to you but you are an uneducated no nothing fool You could not even begin to carry Forestbows on your best day
Whitetail hu ting vs most other hu ting is a child's game from a physical perspective
But you know that because you are a Whitetail "hunter"
OK, that made me laugh, thanks!
You should be able to laugh at yourself. A quality mist people don't gave. And to be honest with yourself to realize that you could not carry forestbows water in the mountains.
You SitO are a whitetail hu yet and that by definition is a physically easy task
“OK, that made me laugh, thanks!”
Me too. :)
I'm really trying to follow you bud, might wanna put the bottle down and check back in the morning.
I love hunting over bait for various species. Doesn’t bother me in the least.
I believe what RK is trying to say is….you simply couldn’t t pour Forest’s piss out of a boot.
And yes, I do think sito is a clown. But that’s in insult To clowns.
We've got a real meeting of the minds here...and I get the feeling you don't like me? Also, it's "an" insult you dolt.
Not a matter of not liking you.
You’re a needlessly arrogant prick who thinks he’s better than people.
You should really get over yourself as I’m sure you’re not as special as you really have lead yourself to believe you are.
I honestly believe sito is a good hunter, he's just cranky because of the hemorrhoids he got from sitting on the cold hard ground for 45 days in a row.
I'm curious how many guys would stop hunting Kansas if they outlawed baiting. I doubt many would admit to it, but I'm sure there'd be a drop off.
Matt
Is baiting in KS only allowed on privately owned land or on public also?
Only on private not enrolled in WIHA RK.
Many would GG. Because they couldn’t justify the lease fees if it wasn’t perceived as a sure thing. But with 8,000 unsuccessful applicants there are plenty to take their place yet. Imagine the public and WIHA would be crowded even further.
I am sure there would be a drop off too.
I killed my best buck in Iowa. The land of no baiting. I still apply there and have a hunt booked for next year.
Perhaps some Of you truly do need to get off your high horses and your God complexes.
GG, I can’t answer for the masses, but I will for myself. I hunt on 640 acres of CRP in west central Ks. There’s zero trees on the property, except a couple rows of cedars 6’ tall and a dozen apple, pear, and plum trees that I planted. They’re 10’ tall and last summers drought killed all of them. My property is surrounded by mostly cattle pastures and wheat stubble, green wheat or milo fields. There’s essentially zero trees in that area, except a few trees around farmsteads. The deer population is very low. There are no oak covered ridges with acorns, or pinch points, or brassicas food plots or other means to attract and pattern deer. If I didn’t use feeders, the odds of me “seeing” a deer in bow range would be about zero. I have not taken a bow shot at a deer on this property in two years. If baiting is banned in Ks, I’ll use a 257 Weatherby to hunt this property. BTW, I’ve bow killed three whitetails in other states this past two falls, from tree stands that I scouted and erected the stands.
KB. Thanks. What is WIHA?
WIHA=walk in hunting area. It’s property that land owners allow hunters to “walk in” and hunt. The WIHA land is well posted as such and there’s maps of where it’s located. The state compensates the landowner some amount for opening their land for hunting. There’s different types of walk in, some with type of weapons allowed, some I believe with different start/end dates.
I knew this thread would be controversial. I have learned a lot about the history. I new the date of the non-resident change but wanted to learn about the culture and politics behind it.
Ive seen land triple in value over the past 12 years in the part of Kansas im in. Lots of that land would not be valued as deer hunting land if bating was eliminated. Billions of dollars in land value would be lost.
Dale, thanks for your honesty. Your response solidifies my opinions on baiting. Basically, it allows you to kill deer on a property that wouldn't hold deer without your feeders. To me, that's not fair chase. It's training deer to act unnaturally in a habitat they wouldn't normally be in. You could probably do that in a parking lot.
Matt
Over all the baiting debates one theme is clear:
If you have access to private land that holds deer because of agriculture or food plots or proximity to such, then you’re against baiting.
You don’t want Joe Dolt taking his one week off from the city and putting a pile of bait on his friend’s five acres in hopes he may kill a deer. Because that might be YOUR buck! You resent his presence.
But baiting should either be allowed on all land or no land. I can’t fathom any scientific reasoning for it to be bad on public and good on private.
Basically a worm and bobber fisherman vs the dry fly fisherman.
Not for me Rod, it's the difference between being a hunter and not being a hunter. I'd like everyone to get whatever buck/doe they wish to put their tag on...but I expect them to have some ethics, and actually hunt.
...........but I expect them to have some ethics, and actually hunt.................and do it in a way that meets a definition of those expectations that meets my approval.
GG, not exactly. It allows me to get a shot at deer with a “BOW”, sometimes. Without bait, the chance of a shot with a bow is essentially zero. There is usually deer on this land, but there is no pattern to their movement. Killing a deer with a rifle on this land is generally less than an hour proposition. I’ve killed several with a rifle and watched others kill deer with a rifle on this land. None were within 200 yards of a feeder. Did the feeder attract them to the property, maybe, maybe not. With the lack of trees and it being pretty flat, it’s easy to walk, to spot deer 100s of yards away and take a rifle shot. Rifle hunting success is usually 100% on this land, for 2-3 hunters. I grew up one mile from this land and have hunted (pheasant) on it since the early 1960s and have owned it for 12 years. I know the property fairly well. I’m open to ideas on how to bow hunt a relatively flat square mile of CRP grass with no trees on it and it being surrounded by pastures and some farm ground.
Well if that is the cause should we all be building our own bows, arrows and heads. Don't forget you can only hunt in a loin cloth. Nothing can be used to turn the odds in a hunters favor.
Dale, your property sounds a lot like some of the properties I bow hunt. Baiting would certainly make it easier, but I've had a fair amount of success without it. Yes, I have to spend a lot of time learning the deer's habits, reading sign, and developing strategies to get close to them, but that's all part of hunting to me. Thankfully, baiting is illegal in Colorado.
Matt
None of those things can be used to train an animal, but bait can and is.
"do it in a way that meets a definition of those expectations that meets my approval" that's silly, it's not my expectations...it's simple logic.
Hopefully Kansas will follow in the footsteps of their Western neighbors. They've already outlawed baiting on public and WIHAs. Before you argue with the statement here that came off the KDWP website about deer grouping, refer to my above pictures of the bucks swapping spit on the same trough. Absolutely sickening.
I’m still open to ideas on how to bowhunt a section of CRP with no trees and being surrounded by pastures and farm land. I do know the land and have been on it hundreds of times in the last 50 years.
Dale, we've discussed this before. You have the funds and wherewithal to plant any number of crops on your section, like the giant "diamond" of standing corn you've planted in the past. How about some alfalfa, or a cover crop, the options are endless. Then Egyptian wheat, plum thickets, or other for cover, to contain a ground blind or tripod stand.
Dale06 My suggestion would be to construct or buy a pre built Deer blind designed to be buried in the ground, with the shooting opening at ground level. You could Position that in a strategic place and / or continue to feed in front of that blind
You have the biggest draw of all in that country Dale, cover. YouTube some of Travis Glassman’s videos. Many of us have been killing bucks in that part of the world for a long time without bait. I can understand the hesitation to blow deer out with a failed stalk, but in my experience when I get to control all the factors at play it’s a lot less risky than I envision having a smart buck approaching a corn pile is.
Sito
Is is not simple just because you have a position. That would infer everyone with a different position is stupid and wrong for not seeing it your "simple" way. That's the whole point that it actually is about meeting your expectations and definitions.
I guarantee you that nobody who is baiting agrees with your simple position that they are being unethical. None of them would agree with your point they are not hunting. Not one of them would get a deer, take it home, and say i got a deer but I was not hunting or I got a deer but I was unethical in doing so.
Simple huh?
My comments are NOT related to your or the other position on baiting. I am speaking about your view that if you see it one way and others don't they are missing the simple reality that you have defined and expect them to accept.
I'm all for improving habitat that deer will use and thrive in. That helps overall health and populations of deer for all hunters in the area. But, when a guy spends thousands of dollars and countless hours improving habitat only to have a neighbor train and kill deer over bait on an otherwise useless property to the deer, then there's a problem, IMO.
Matt
SitO, good idea. The land is in CRP now. The amount of acreage and what I can plant is controlled by the CRP contract. I am at maximum acreage already. I’ll look into whether I can plant same alfalfa or similar. There are quite a few spots in the grass where there’s a fair amount of clover growing. The previous CRP contract required over seeding of the grass with forbes, including various clovers. I think that’s part of the “draw” of this property, for deer and pheasants. The diamond was planted in milo, as precipitation for corn is very iffy in this area of the state.
Bou, it's not my definition, it's fact. Training an animal to come to a predetermined spot, with sustenance, has nothing to do with hunting...we all know that, even the most simple.
Dale06 you make a very good point about baiting. 1: baiting has converged with the popularity and efficiency of archery equipment to make archery season a much larger player in buck/doe harvest 2: baiting takes away incentive to improve habitat by allowing people to pull deer off good habitat with bait 3: baiting allows higher archery success in areas that have poor habitat
If kansas could ban baiting it would change the state in a huge way...same goes for oklahoma which in the last 10-15 years has change into a giant corn pile party
Dale: Set up two feeders connected by a draw a half mile apart and set up right smack in the middle. Based on your description of the ground it may work real well in catching that big boy on the move.
No matter what state (16 to date) I hunt deer it’s always about ambushing between bedding and food.
A Google search shows 22 states currently allow some sort of baiting. Doesn’t matter to me if Kansas changes the regs. What bothers me is guys that want me to hunt their way. You can only shoot one buck per year in Kansas regardless of weapon. This is very good for Kansas. Who cares what I do with my tag if it’s legal?
Next week I’ll be at Lenny’s lease in Texas with Dennis and we will be sitting feeders. It is an absolute blast and we love it. The number one reason we love it is the camaraderie. Isn’t that one of the main reasons why we hunt?
Some guys think using decoys or hunting water holes should be banned. Silly rabbits.
Life is short, it’s later than you think so enjoy every day afield.
SitO, do you mostly hunt private land? How far is it to private land crops that attract deer?
I understand that you have a passion for hunting the way you do, simply because that's what really appeals to you. I will never get the thrill of golf either but I can understand that many people do love it. And I'm sure I'd be pretty excited to have a hunt on your terms if it were possible in my circumstances and in fact I do for most of my hunts. I don't pack bait to the goat or sheep mountains or for moose and caribou. I don't know how many dozens of mature bears I've killed and no bait involved. I'm just wondering why, as a fellow hunter, you can't be less judgmental of those that don't share your narrow parameters? I guess the quick answer from you is that "those" people are not fellow hunters because they are not real hunters.
I wouldn't mind to have months to "train" my mule deer to come to me readily and regularly. But I simply can't or I'd do nothing but feed bears. My season starts on September 1st and ends Nov. 30th. By the time Nov. comes, I've been beating the bush and mountains for 2 1/2 months. I'm 69 years old and getting tired by then. I'm lucky I have some resident does that use my "crossroads" area with lots of natural browse that I can enhance with thinning and hinge cutting poplar saplings. If it's real cold and snowy, the bears have gone to bed by mid Nov. and I can start dribbling feed during the day. I have to check every couple days to verify that no bears are using it or I have to quit again.
This is bush country and no corn, grain or bean crops for at least a hundred miles. These deer have a harsh life and a couple bad years can really knock them down. They don't recover near as fast as whitetail. Cougars and coyotes play hell them all winter and the bears and coyotes are relentless on the fawns in the spring. The rut is especially hard on the 3 1/2 year old class bucks and they have a poor winter survival rate. The mature bucks are wanderers and don't have a home turf like whitetails. But I've been feeding them for over ten years now and packing bedding hay for thermal protection (thanks Saskatchewan biologists) out to spots that THEY have picked as optimal. I really enjoy seeing a cam pic of several deer heads peering out just above a nice warm bed of hay. I have one pic of four 4X4 post rut bucks sharing a bed and regaining energy for the long winter ahead.
I didn't shoot a buck this year. I had one mature buck in bow range, one time and I wiffed it and never to be seen again. I waited another three weeks for a very big buck to maybe show that was on a friends cam about four miles away with no luck. I guess I just need more fish in my barrel to be successful.
But I still enjoyed watching all the does, fawns and young bucks. The squirrels, grouse, birds and the owl that often comes to hunt just before dark. Weasels and the odd pine martin. So I guess, even though it's probably just a feeble attempt on my part to justify my pathetic efforts to persuade myself I'm actually hunting, I'm still content within my delusion.
I just wish the a-holes that bait down here and litter the roads/highways with corn bags would learn how to contain them in their vehicle. Too much to ask? :)
As far as sitO goes, he’s a good guy. I know him. But, he’s not gonna back off of his feelings towards baiting. Is he a bit coarse? Yep. Frankly, he makes a lot of people angry because it hurts their feelings that he calls them out. It is what it is.
Me personally, I know the majority that bait on here, and I can reserve comment on a public forum. But, I guess I have more respect for the ones that (I know) hunt in a more traditional fashion and hunt the land and the animals in a more intimate manner. Yea, I know, I know… loin cloth, atlatl, make your own bows and arrowheads. Blah blah blah. :)
I also know a lot of trad guys that beat their chest and post kills with their Osage bows, knapped heads, river cane arrows and they hunt from man made ground blinds that kill multiple animals year in and year out. Want to know their secret? Corn! I know some of these trad guys personally.
In the end, it’s a personal choice, as long as it’s legal. Just like myself that flip flops from modern to traditional bows, I get heat occasionally from some of my trad friends when they see me with my wheel bow. It’s the easier avenue, kind of like corn and baiting is to some. You do you, but I know where I’ll always stand with baiting. I don’t need nor want that easy button.
Peace and HNY.
"I just wish the a-holes that bait down here and litter the roads/highways with corn bags would learn how to contain them in their vehicle. Too much to ask? :)"
Oh geeze Embry, you hit the nail on the head! 2 weeks before rifle season starts the ditches are littered with corn bags. I pick up a ton of them and it pisses me off every single time. It pisses me off right now thinking about it.
When I lived in KS, I made some friends. Ran into one of them at a grocery store one year about a week before the firearm season, so I asked him if he was excited for the upcoming hunting season. He told me he wasn’t going to go because he couldn’t afford the corn…. I like telling that story.
Well Rick, I’m not littering with grain bags because I usually have just enough to hold the hides and meat of the spot and stalk spring bears. Great for burying in the snow banks.
Embry, I'm ashamed to admit you're right about all the corn sacks. Very seldom will I see a feed or cattle cube sack. Do the farmers and ranchers know something these men don't?
Gene… yes, they’ve fed animals for many years most likely and know how to weigh them down in the bed, put them in their tool box, or in the cab. Unlike the corn bag highway litter guys. :)
I hate seeing corn bags in the ditch. I also hate seeing generations worth of trash thrown in a gully. Kansas residents just throw their trash anywhere they want. I've never seen this anywhere else.
Forestbows - ya ever go through some of those old homestead dumps? Cars and trucks from the 30's and 40's, old refrigerators, ancient GAS stoves... I've actually stopped on many of a quail hunt just to poke around and look at the history in them.
Those old ranchers typically care more about the environment than most hunters do. They've lived on that land their whole lives and worked their fingers to the bone on it. They like to see a yote now and then, birds, rabbits, wildflowers. They sure aren't into leaving feed/mineral bags and bale twine laying around.
Most do. Netting from round bales mineral tubs ect. I dont see clean farms in Kansas very often.
I’ve surveyed every state east of the Rocky Mountains. Dumping trash in a gully is not unique to Kansas nor is it the worst IMO.
I agree, Ryan. On our annual roadtrip to Florida, We get to see a good portion of the country. As far as private dumps and roadside trash goes, Kansas is one of the cleaner states. It gets worse the further SE we go. Georgia is a dump. Florida depends on where you are at.
Matt
I've always thought KS was clean (more clean than surrounding states anyway). Anytime we go on a trip I'm amazed at how trashy the ditches are in other states. I suppose a lot of it is what you are used to. Most people don't notice or pay attention to what's normal to them, then do notice the unusual.
That's alarming. I pick up trash all the time in my ditches and at fishing lakes. It's getting worse. Usually idiot local rednecks that don't care. Yesterday evening, I found a whole case of empty beer cans strung out over a mile while I was ditch hunting my quail spot.
Can’t stand the pigs that think it’s a great idea to use the woods for their personal trash dumpster. Often wonder who the hell raised people to behave like that. Total losers. I am loaded up too much to pickup during hunting season, but usually fill a backpack every time while scouting. When I use my boat I fill up trash bags. After 50 years of this the supply the pigs leave is still endless. Pathetic.
This ought to help things, eh?
There’s a thread on the KS page. Stupid bill that won’t make it. Note that this Bill was written and sponsored by Republicans.
“Kick them out of your camps”. Missouribreaks.
Good lord that would add 8 days of firearms that crack into protected November. #1 Recipe for mature buck decline. Party don’t matter when you are talking greased politicians.
I am not saying some outdoorsman aren't slobs about littering, but more than once I have driven behind a garbage truck on a windy day and watched enormous amounts of trash blow out the back. It made me realize that much of the trash in the ditches and woods probably blew there for such events. Now the Busch lite beer cans though, that's another story.
I agree Zim. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy and identity politics of some posters.
Although I quit hunting Kansas years ago after another greased rep legislated out the real nonresident quota system, I'm happy to email all these current reps my opinion of this latest scam. Gotta do one for Iowa again anyways.
Please do Zim! Please do everybody!
You non-residents hunting KS need to let them know if the mature buck population drops you'll find other states to spend your money in. Changes like this does no good for anyone that cares about mature bucks in KS.
Doug Blex returned my email and is on our side.
Webster Roth wouldn't give me an straight answer on his stance (even after asking very directly several times). Felt very slimy. It felt like he is pushing this bill.
