On non posted land verbal permission is required.
I don't think trespassers could care less either way.
EDIT……..In Iowa, landowners are not required by law, to post their property. It is one’s responsibility to know where the property boundaries are. You are also not allowed to go onto someone’s property without express consent of the property owner or manager, however, you do have the right to track a wounded animal onto private property without the owner’s permission. You cannot bring a weapon with you without the owner’s permission.
i didn't have game cameras up and the location of the land was too far and difficult to access for me to monitor regularly. there were often 4-wheeler tracks and boot prints where people trespassed. :(.
the local sheriff was an a-hole fwiw.
We had a tresspasser on our lease this year, caught him on two cameras. The GW visited with him and so did we. Pretty sure he won’t be back. We run cameras there too, and some of them aren’t on plots, they are on trails or roads. My buddy runs cell cameras so we’re pretty up to date on joyriders, not so much if they’re on foot and in the woods.
And who the hell walks the deer woods with a brown frigen coat on? Good lord
At that point I told him if I found any other stands I’d just take them to the sheriffs office. For the record, that landowner is a local attorney. ;)
He now sits in the county jail, and he'll be there until next November.
Leo/scentman …….He was squirrel, coon, opossum, skunk, woodpecker, songbird, yada, yada, yada hunting. We have lots of issues with the Hmongs coming down from the Minneapolis/St. Paul area in big groups, and hunting (starting out, at least) on public hunting areas in our area. Once they get there, they pretty much go wherever they please. The closest public land to me, is over 1/2 mile away. They pay little attention to boundaries, or game laws for that matter. On September 11th, I got videos of 2 more of them on 3 different cameras behind my house. 2 of the cameras were within 150-200 yards of my house. THAT is a little unnerving! I rarely have any problems with trespassing by locals. These Hmongs are another story.
I only have 2 cellular trailcams, and they’re in harder to access spots. The cameras that I got the other 2 trespassers on, are regular cameras, that I probably check every couple of weeks, so I had no idea that those ba$tards were right behind my house until a week or two after they had already been through there.
Tragic story but interesting too.
What an amazing athlete you are. Fences in Florida mean don’t cross unless you have permission. A lot of land I hunt in Illinois and other states have no fences, hence the need for posted signs.
Posting and posters only keep out honest people.
It was worse when I lived and hunted in Lancaster. The Amish and Mennonites have ZERO regard for property lines or fish and game regulations in my experience.
Here in KS you can use purple paint to deter, but unless posted "No Trespassing" it won't hold up in court.
Jconman……..That incident did come to mind while I was giving this guy the “what for”. Immediately upon confronting this guy, I took pics and some video of him and sent them to my wife. It definitely could have turned ugly, but I was standing about 2’ right in front of this guy and his gun was slung on his shoulder. He may have been able to have shot me, but that would have been AFTER the a$$ whipping that one of us would have taken.
Glad it worked out for you t-roy.
I’ll never understand why anyone suggests confrontation has to always be subtle. Yes, a trespasser may one day shoot me or try to whip my butt. But, I’ve never lived by that kind of code. Instead, I think it’s very effective that the trespasser understand that I may just as well shoot him or whip his tale if he gets rowdy or threatens harm. It’s been pretty effective so far in keeping my stuff mine to use as I see fit.
IT IS UNSPEAKABLE AND A REMINDER THAT ANY ENCOUNTER WITH ANY STRANGER CAN GO IN A TOTALLY INSANE DIRECTION AND LITTLE IS PREDICTABLE.
Two of eight Wisconsin deer hunters survived a shooting rampage Nov. 21, 2004, for one reason: The enraged killer ran out of ammo after firing his SKS 7.62×39 semiautomatic rifle 22 times.
That man—Chai Soua Vang, 36, of St. Paul, Minnesota, a certified sharpshooter and six-year National Guard veteran—opened fire by first shooting the group’s only armed hunter. He then shot three where they sat or crouched, chased down a father and adult son who fled, and ambushed a young nurse and her driver from behind as they rode unarmed on an ATV to render aid.
Of the dead, Vang shot four in the back and two in the side, executing three with follow-up shots as if dispatching a wounded animal. When he pulled his rifle’s trigger the 23rd time while confronting a hunter he previously wounded, Vang discovered it was empty.
Retired newspaper reporter Ed Culhane still can’t shake the senseless, ruthless, spontaneous violence detailed by state prosecutors during Vang’s trial in September 2005.
“The sadness of it all never leaves,” said Culhane, who covered the six-day event. “Without question, it was the most horrific trial I covered in my 25-year career. The cold brutality of it all; especially how Vang hid as the ATV approached with the young woman. He waited ‘til they passed so he had an easy target, shot them in the back, and then finished them off.”
Not About Hunting The tragedy was so bizarre that most reports at the time overlooked an obvious fact: Until that day, mass shootings never involved hunters and hunting situations; and none since have involved hunters. More specifically, of 160 mass shootings (defined as at least three victims) since 1999, only the Chai Vang case involved hunters. Further, none of the 83 cases listed from 1920 through 1999 involved hunters. Most involve family members, co-workers or former co-workers, or innocent strangers in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Mike Bartz, a retired Wisconsin conservation warden, was the senior law enforcement officer at the crime scene that day. “That shooting had nothing to do with deer hunting,” Bartz said.
Further, most mass shootings involve premeditation. Nothing that happened that Sunday in northern Wisconsin’s Blue Hills region was planned. Vang had slept little the previous two days after friends picked him up after work at 1:30 a.m. on Saturday in St. Paul. He spent much of Sunday morning tracking and shooting at a doe in a public forest about 20 miles northeast of Rice Lake, Wisconsin.
Vang, now 52, is a member of the Hmong community from Laos, a people who fought courageously for U.S. interests in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War. His father was a lieutenant and his mother a nurse in the Hmong Army. Communist forces persecuted the Hmong after the war, forcing them to flee to Thailand as refugees. From there, Vang’s parents brought their family to the U.S. Many Hmong settled in Minneapolis-St. Paul, and Wisconsin cities like Wausau, Sheboygan, Milwaukee, La Crosse, and Green Bay.
Hot-Tempered Scofflaw Vang was an angry renegade. He bragged to coworkers about poaching deer on land he owned in Minnesota, and had citations for trespassing and going over bag limit on fish. His first marriage ended after he accused his wife of infidelity and pointed a loaded handgun at her. His second marriage ended after he nearly choked his wife to death for gambling away $3,000.
Vang also disliked trespassing laws, believing all land should be open to hunting. After spotting an unoccupied treestand about 2 miles from his group’s campsite on Nov. 21, 2004, Vang pulled on a camouflage facemask and climbed up. He didn’t know who owned the stand or the 80-acre property, but he could see their cabin roof from his perch. The owners — friends and business partners Terry Willers and Bob Crotteau—were in camp with 13 friends and family members, with more heading to the camp for their traditional Sunday afternoon deer drive.
Terry Willers spotted Vang in the usually-unused treestand around 11:15 a.m. and called the cabin with his radio to see who was up there. He learned that everyone was back in camp, so Willers walked to the treestand, told Vang to come down, and directed him to head east 100 yards and get off the property. Their conversation was polite and Vang apologized. But instead of heading east through the woods as directed, Vang followed a camp trail southward. Willers followed for about five minutes to ensure he left.
Unfolding Tragedy Meanwhile, Willers called the cabin around 11:30 a.m. to say he had evicted the “tree rat.” The elder Crotteau replied that he wanted to make sure the trespasser got the message to never return. Crotteau, his son Joey, and two friends then rode out on the Crotteau’s UTV. Another followed on an ATV.
Willers had no way of knowing tragedy awaited. Before noon …
Willers would be temporarily paralyzed by a bullet through his lower neck and upper back, making him unable to use his rifle, the only firearm on site among the landowners. Friend Lauren Hesebeck would be struggling with a bullet wound in his left upper arm and shoulder, but surviving. Friend Denny Drew, 55, would lie mortally wounded, shot through the lower chest, pancreas, stomach, and small intestine. He would die a day later. Friend Mark Roidt, 28, would lie dead, shot through the head while seated on his ATV. Robert Crotteau, 42, would lie dead where Vang chased him down and shot him through the heart. Joey Crotteau, 20, would lie dead where Vang chased him down and shot him four times in the back; the last bullet striking his neck and head. Willers’ daughter, Jessica, 27, and friend Al Laski, 43, would lie dead down a trail alongside Laski’s ATV. Vang, after reversing his blaze-orange jacket to its camo side, hid near a curve in the trail when he heard the ATV approaching. Thinking Jessica and Laski were likely armed and looking for him, Vang waited until they passed. When he fired, the bullet struck Jessica in the left buttock, blew through her hip, and struck Laski, shattering his lower spine and abdomen. Vang ran over, shot Laski through the back and heart to finish him, and then stepped behind Jessica as she crawled screaming and pleading, and fired a shot through her neck into her brain.
Two Hotheads Collide What triggered such cold, deadly rage? Trial testimony by Terry Willers and Lauren Hesebeck—as well as from Vang, who testified against his attorneys’ advice—described an angry, one-sided verbal confrontation when Bob Crotteau arrived.
“My takeaway was that two hotheads met in the woods, and one of them had a horrible reputation for being a loudmouth,” Bartz said. “(Bob Crotteau) started yelling profanities at Vang, and apparently used some racial epithets.”
Culhane had a similar take. “It came down to two strong personalities; one a bully and the other homicidal,” he said. “I came away from the trial really not liking (Crotteau). He was full of himself with all his friends around, even though the other guy had a loaded rifle. He was so into his bullying and being the big guy that he didn’t suspect what [Vang, who is 5-foot, 4 inches tall] was capable of doing. His actions didn’t justify six murders, but he behaved really badly.”
The hunting party loosely surrounded Vang while Crotteau yelled, but no one hit, kicked, or pushed the trespasser. Joey Crotteau, however, twice blocked Vang’s path when he tried leaving. Bob Crotteau demanded Vang’s name so he could file a trespass complaint, but Vang refused. Crotteau told his son to step away and let Vang pass, and then noticed Vang’s backtag holder flipped upside down on his coat’s upper back.
Until 2016, Wisconsin required deer hunters to display a 3.5- by 9-inch tag with a seven-digit ID number on their upper back. Crotteau stepped toward Vang and flipped down the backtag. Drew and Hesebeck then read the numbers aloud as Willers drew them into the dust on the UTV’s hood. Meanwhile, Joey Crotteau accused Vang of giving him the bird, which Vang denied. The elder Crotteau again warned Vang he would report him for trespassing, and walked to his UTV to end the confrontation.
Combat Mode Only Willers and Hesebeck kept watching Vang, who was seething with humiliation while walking away. After a 30-yard gap opened between Vang and the six men, Vang crouched, unslung his shouldered rifle, and flipped a quick-disconnect lever to remove its scope. His National Guard training taught that open sights are faster and more effective at close range.
As described in David Whitehurst’s 2015 book, “Tree Stand Murders,” Vang raised his rifle in one smooth, continuous sweeping motion as he circled right, kneeled, and aimed at Willers, the group’s only armed person. Vang later said, “If I don’t shoot him, he would shoot me.”
Then the massacre ensued. Vang’s first shot missed Willers as he ran and dove for cover, but Willers landed atop his rifle and couldn’t turn over before Vang’s second shot hit his lower left neck, paralyzing him. Vang instantly turned toward the men on their machines and shot Roidt, who hit the ground dead, as his ATV, still in gear, idled forward. Vang shot Drew next as the Crotteaus fled, and fired three shots at close range while chasing Hesebeck around the UTV. His third shot flattened Hesebeck, who fell stunned and still.
Assuming Hesebeck was dead, Vang raced after Bob Crotteau, whose blaze-orange coat made him easy to see. As he fled, Crotteau called the cabin on his walky-talky to tell Laski to bring guns. Vang’s first shot missed but the second hit Crotteau in the chest, instantly killing him. Willers, meanwhile, had regained feeling in his fingers, and called the cabin for help.
By that time Vang was chasing Joey Crotteau, who fled down a trail. Vang sprinted to cut the corner to the trail to close the gap, and shot him in the lower back at about 65 yards. Vang reloaded, approached closer as Crotteau struggled forward, and shot him again. Vang then closed in and shot him twice more from behind, putting the final shot into his head.
After next ambushing and killing Laski and Jessica Willers on Laski’s ATV, Vang returned to retrieve his scope and leave, thinking he had killed every witness. As he neared the site, he and Hesebeck came face to face. Vang said, “You not dead yet?” and raised his rifle to shoot. He fired as Hesebeck grabbed Willers’ rifle with his right hand and dove for cover. Shots zipped past over Hesebeck’s head.
Though he could point but not aim the rifle because of his wounded left arm, Hesebeck tried to shoot back. But when he pulled the trigger, the safety was still engaged. He dragged the unfamiliar rifle alongside his body to feel for the safety, and pushed it in. He pointed it again and fired once. He then heard a slight metallic sound from Vang’s rifle, and realized Vang was out of bullets.
Whitehurst described the standoff: “Their eyes met. Neither moved. Vang had the ability to shoot, but not the bullets. Hesebeck had the bullets, but not the ability.”
A diesel truck was now approaching from camp. Even if he had more bullets, Vang knew he had to flee. He didn’t have time to silence every witness who had seen him transform from trespasser to mass murderer. Forsaking his riflescope, Vang zig-zagged into the forest.
Meanwhile, although cell phone service was weak and intermittent, those in camp had summoned state police, conservation wardens, and sheriffs’ departments. After setting up a perimeter to prevent Vang’s escape, the wardens used an airplane to search for hunters throughout the afternoon, and sent in tactical units to escort them from the woods.
About 5:30 p.m., with darkness deepening, conservation warden Jeremy Peery noticed an ATV heading west on the Serley Camp Trail toward his post at the intersection with DeJung Road, roughly 2 miles south of the crime scene. A hunter named Walter Cieslak was driving the ATV, giving a lost, polite hunter a ride.
“When I shined my flashlight on the passenger, I saw he was wearing camouflage and he fit our suspect’s description,” Peery said. “I drew my gun, and gave him commands to put his hands up and listen to my instructions. He cooperated. He didn’t resist. His backtag was still pinned inside his jacket. We knew we had the right guy.”
Bartz and Culhane said it was distressing to hear and read racial slurs against the Hmong community after the murders, but said it’s simplistic to say racial tensions triggered the crime.
“Vang said before and after the trial that he had been disrespected and (that at least three of them) deserved to die,” Bartz said. “I don’t care if you’re a white Irishman or from any other culture. You don’t kill people because they disrespect you.”
Culhane agreed. “When Vang testified, he was not a good witness in his own defense,” he said. “His anger was on display. When it was over, you knew the jury got it right. He wasn’t the victim. He was a murderer.”
The jury deliberated for three hours and 15 minutes before convicting Vang on all six counts of first-degree murder, and three counts of attempted first-degree murder. He is imprisoned for life at the Anamosa State Penitentiary in northeastern Iowa.
Knew a fellow gent where I use to live in Wi., 4 Hmong shot several doe off his property without permission, he called the warden and the warden let them go and fined the owner for not properly punching his kill tag on a buck he shot that morning.
My brother was in the MACV-SOG in Nam he told me that when in was in Laos the Hmong would have their cache site supplied but would tell the NVC where it was for a reward, he would take his team the opposite way, the Hmong were to help to rescue down pilots but none ever made it out again the reward, do your own research.
I was in Prescott, Az when the Hayward shooting took place and a couple, from Oxnard,Ca., were at a park that afternoon seen my Wi. tag and ask me if I knew about the Hmong shooting, I thought for sure it took place where I lived since there was a strong presence of them on the public land and was surprised it took place in Hayward. The couple knew the problems when the Hmong were first brought to Oxnard.
I do not want to sound racist but when a special group have been given to break game laws which we are to follow and are above the law I do have a problem with it. I could keep going on but I'll just leave it here. No one should be above the law and be careful when confronting a trespasser.
Those 2 particular people aside, I'm not a tyrant and before I posted the ground I went to all of the neighbors in the area and let them know they were welcome to do anything they needed or wanted to do, except for hunting. I get pictures of people from time to time, but I usually know them and I've yet to catch a hunter in any of my stands. I know people do coyote hunt in the area, but that's fine with me.
As far as engaging a trespasser, I guess I've been fairly lucky. There have been a couple of times when things could've gone bad. Nothing is worth dying over. That story out of Wisconsin is a real tragedy.
Several years back we were sleeping at camp in our RV when 4 guys came riding up to our camp on 4 wheelers. They were hog hunters who were “looking for their dog”. They were all 4 packing sidearms.
My wife saw the headlights and woke me up and my buddy Rob was in camp too. We walked out and confronted them and asked why they were over A MILE on our place? Since none of us had a gun in camp, my buddy and I took the civil route and told them they are trespassing and they needed to leave. They were about 500 yards from our South gate and asked if they could go out and hit the road because that was the direction their dog had went. Nope!
They eventually went back the way they came and I’m assuming had to go the 1.5 - 2 miles around to locate their dog.
In the end, they had crossed a fence (cut it), a major tributary and had covered over a mile of land to get to our camp at 2:30 am! Wasn’t a good feeling at all! Especially since they looked like a bunch of hillbillies on 4 wheelers and packing heat. Just glad my buddy was there as well to show somewhat of a presence. My wife was in the camper walking around acting like a third person. They never saw her.
Bigswivle……..probably would be best to fly into the Twin Cities and rent a car with MN plates. That way, you’ll blend right in!
Shiloh….I stated there was a good possibility that there might be a butt whoopin handed out. Not sure if I would have been on the giving or receiving end…
GG……Ironically, I got the video of these two bastards in the same spot as where I got the video of the mountain lion. Too bad they hadn’t showed up at the same time.
Good luck with that.
Through an odd confluence of events, we were hunting elsewhere that year. A change that occurred Friday morning before the season. The shootings and murders took place on Sunday.
Had we been there, we would have heard every shot. And the reports make it sound as though Vang walked through where we were normally camped just before he was arrested.
Kind of creepy. A small, simple twist of fate and we would have been there. That’s where we were headed late Thursday night.
What I wouldn't pay to see the confrontation between you and those Trespassers. I bet it was Epic!
We have no idea what the triggers are and capabilities are of others. The meek and mild can be monsters. Look no further than the 32 year old mother of 3 in Duxbury MA who decided to strangle her three kids Tuesday (5, 3, and 7 months) and then jump out the window to try to kill herself. The 7 year old did not die. The others, aside from mom did. Was this some degenerate drug addled trashy person who has a history of terrible behavior? No, it was a well educated white mom from wealthy suburb, happily married by all accounts but dealing with depression, who was a delivery and OBGYN nurse at the premier Boston hospital. Who would have figured?
People are crazy enough without being unduly encouraged.
If you look online at the WI shooting at the hunting camp it is indisputable that the situation was essentially over and parties were going their own way until someone decided to make further comments, block egress, and make threats to the stranger, and physically touch him. They had to prove one last point and get the last word in and reinforce their power in the situation. Unfortunately that stranger then became emboldened to let his violent side come out and his insanity show. He actually had more power because he was crazy enough to use what was at his disposal when nobody could even contemplate such a possibility. How different would than situation have been if someone said "we made our point its over lets go back and get lunch then do our deer drive" instead of seeking personal identification, touching the other person, and adding humiliation and fear into the conversation.
Often discretion is the better part of valor.
I am in no way condoning trespassing, in fact I believe there should be repercussions trespassing and What I find ironic is how many here grew up hunting and fishing on others property. I know lots of us started off hunting rabbits, squirrels, and waterfowl before we became deer hunters. Most of us didn't need to ask for permission because 30, 40, and 50 years ago most land owners didn't mind as long gates were shut, we didn't litter, and overall were just responsible. Even asking a "grumpy old farmer" there was a good chance he might have just warned you not to shoot that covey up by the house but he didn't really mind you hunting his land.
I am in no way condoning trespassing, in fact I believe there should be repercussions for trespassing and severe ones for poaching. I'm just wondering what's going to happen to the next generation of young hunters who families don't have access to a lease? Public land can be extremely crowded in some areas. Just curious.
No one suggests that fists and guns are the right approach. But, let’s be honest. The only reason we have these threads and warnings are due to complacent approaches and behaviors associated with landowners catching these trespassers.
Vang knew he was trespassing. He knew he didn’t belong. And on the flip side, there was a man there that kept prodding and poking him. Until he snapped.
Had the loud mouth acted with his hands instead of his big mouth, this likely wouldn’t have happened. A few bruises. An ego or two hurt. But, everyone goes home.
It’s the same stuff on these pages. A good bit of men would rather insult another, degrade another, do whatever it takes to beat another man in his mind. All with their mouths.
However, it’s easy to talk about it. Which emboldens, threatens, humiliates, insults, etc…. Which leads to this crap.
I don’t know the answers to it all. But, had the group been willing to act the part instead of talk it, Vang would have left with some. bruises. Better yet, he’d been escorted out. Instead, foul mouthing for affect led to a lot of people getting killed.
There is nothing wrong with your actions a words being so clear that no one contemplates trespassing on you again. That, or keep with the meeker approaches. But for heavens sake, carry a firearm!!
They also could have simply held/constrained him there until sheriff arrived..........
But for you guys trying to cut down on trespassing on posting land I will relay what a local choose and cut Christmas tree grower did. He had a fair bit of road frontage. It was posted and fenced with relatively low welded wire fencing(+- 4 feet tall). Fenced to obviously give the intended message but not so much to be ugly or threatening on a family friendly retail type business. The fence was easily jumped or climbed. He suffered a lot of poaching of his trees. After he began coating the wire fence in heavy axel grease it cut down considerably on the poaching ! A 3-4 foot tall fence around your hunting lot would easily accomplish the same thing letting the desired game pass freely but discourage the two legged ones.
Sometimes it's hard to describe to people who don't own land how frustrating it is to deal with trespassers. You work hard, save your money, sacrifice other things, you make a big investment in land (exactly so you DON'T have to deal with this crap) and others just walk in and help themselves to what's yours. The ones who are confused or mistaken about boundaries are merely frustrating, but the repeat offenders, the willful 'don't give a shit' types or the ones who act like they are going to get aggressive are the worst.
When I was about 13 (in PA) I found a guy in my deer stand (my family's land), I spotted him before I got too close, so I went and got my uncle who was hunting nearby. We went back and the guy thought it was OK to be where he was. He said he had paid the Caretaker of a nearby Summer Camp for a place to stay and hunt, he even had a hand drawn map of the area with MY stand marked on it. I was pissed, because I had actually selected that spot and built the (homemade) tree stand myself. The guy left peacefully, maybe because there were 2 of us with rifles, or maybe because he knew he shouldn't have been there, who knows. Trespassers were almost unheard of back then. There was no public land around for miles.
When I first bought my own land in NY I kicked out a lot of kids on dirt bikes and quads and quite a few old timers and I heard the line "I have been hunting here since before you were born" a lot. It took a while but they mostly moved on. I got to know the area cops and Warden, and one of them told me, be firm, maybe give each one a single warning, then have us arrest them. That property has a fair amount of public land nearby, more than a few times I've used the line "Dude, I have 80 acres, there is 14,000 acres of State Land over that way, STAY OVER THERE, Some of my friends really are Crazy and don't don't clearly identify their targets before deciding to shoot".
One guy got off his quad acting like he wanted to fight me, I was carrying a loaded shotgun and had my German wirehaired pointer, who was very very much concerned with the safety of the guy who fed her and took her hunting. When I pointed out that the odds, he reconsidered and left. Sometimes people catch themselves just BEFORE they do something really stupid. I have found that if you have a dog or other people with you, (or if they think there are others with you), they usually leave without too much of a fuss.
I do have some cell cams around that place, and when I point that out, that usually gets their attention. A few homemade signs with that info on them seems to help as well.
I just bought more land in CT, some (hard to access) State land is on one side, so far it hasn't been a huge concern, but ... we'll see how it goes. One neighbor had gotten used to using a part of my place to hunt, so we had the talk.
Trespassing Laws are very different in different states, and so are hunting traditions. It's a new world out there and I'd never blame the landowners for defending what's theirs, of course if you pick a fight, you could come out bloody (or worse), so you better consider that before you get in over your head.
T-Roy, are you SURE there were only 2 of them? Maybe that Lion did part of the job.