Mathews Inc.
Posted Land
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
Bou’bound 25-Jan-23
t-roy 25-Jan-23
timex 25-Jan-23
Grey Ghost 25-Jan-23
Recurve Man 25-Jan-23
t-roy 25-Jan-23
bigswivle 25-Jan-23
RonP 25-Jan-23
drycreek 25-Jan-23
scentman 25-Jan-23
MA-PAdeerslayer 25-Jan-23
Leo17 25-Jan-23
Dale06 25-Jan-23
EmbryOklahoma 25-Jan-23
sitO 25-Jan-23
WV Mountaineer 25-Jan-23
t-roy 25-Jan-23
scentman 25-Jan-23
APauls 25-Jan-23
Thornton 25-Jan-23
Whocares 26-Jan-23
jconman 26-Jan-23
WV Mountaineer 26-Jan-23
scentman 26-Jan-23
MQQSE 26-Jan-23
bigswivle 26-Jan-23
Supernaut 26-Jan-23
WYelkhunter 26-Jan-23
sitO 26-Jan-23
t-roy 26-Jan-23
Supernaut 26-Jan-23
WV Mountaineer 26-Jan-23
Missouribreaks 26-Jan-23
Supernaut 26-Jan-23
Bou’bound 26-Jan-23
drycreek 26-Jan-23
jjs 26-Jan-23
t-roy 26-Jan-23
deerhunter72 26-Jan-23
Buskill 26-Jan-23
Babysaph 26-Jan-23
bigswivle 26-Jan-23
Groundhunter 26-Jan-23
Shiloh 26-Jan-23
8point 26-Jan-23
Grey Ghost 26-Jan-23
BOHUNTER09 26-Jan-23
sitO 26-Jan-23
RD in WI 26-Jan-23
Thornton 26-Jan-23
EmbryOklahoma 26-Jan-23
Jebediah 26-Jan-23
t-roy 26-Jan-23
bigswivle 26-Jan-23
drycreek 26-Jan-23
t-roy 26-Jan-23
Bou'bound 26-Jan-23
Huntiam 26-Jan-23
orionsbrother 26-Jan-23
Pat Lefemine 26-Jan-23
t-roy 26-Jan-23
Buskill 27-Jan-23
Bou’bound 27-Jan-23
canepole 27-Jan-23
deerhunter72 27-Jan-23
Shiloh 27-Jan-23
WV Mountaineer 27-Jan-23
Patdel 27-Jan-23
ROUGHCOUNTRY 27-Jan-23
t-roy 27-Jan-23
blue spot 28-Jan-23
EmbryOklahoma 31-Jan-23
Saphead 31-Jan-23
Bou’bound 02-Feb-23
DanaC 02-Feb-23
Ace 02-Feb-23
Missouribreaks 02-Feb-23
Ace 02-Feb-23
RBBH 02-Feb-23
Basil 02-Feb-23
Screwball 02-Feb-23
Bigdog 21 03-Feb-23
From: Bou’bound
25-Jan-23
Does anyone out there not post the land they own?

From: t-roy
25-Jan-23

t-roy's embedded Photo
t-roy's embedded Photo
Evidently, not enough……

From: timex
25-Jan-23
The law in VA says on posted land you must have written permission.

On non posted land verbal permission is required.

I don't think trespassers could care less either way.

From: Grey Ghost
25-Jan-23
I don't post mine, but it's bordered by a county road on only one side, which I can see from my house. The rest is bordered by large ranches with only private access, and I know the owners well. In 23 years, I've only had a problem with a couple of turkey hunters who got permission from one of my neighbors. They lost that permission when they killed a turkey on my place and I caught them red handed. I' don't run cameras, and never will, but I routinely walk my property lines and look for human sign. Trespassing isn't a big issue in my neck of the woods..

Matt

From: Recurve Man
25-Jan-23
No sir. Everyone around here knows what I own and the know I’m a trophy hunter and fortunately I have no problems. Now with that being said they’ll hunt right on the line. Nothing I can do about it and I get along with them. Actually tried to tell them how they should hunt those stands and the wind. They screwed things up for two years until I went and had a very polite talk with them and now they respect everything. I counted it as a win. A guy just has to learn to adapt now days. Lots of hunters in my area now days and I used to get mad first of season and be mad all year long. I was a 3.5 year old back then and now days I’m a boomer. I use everything to my advantage and especially other hunters. I’m fortunate enough to get to hunt during the week when the young bucks are at work. Gotta make lemonade out of lemons my dad always said.

From: t-roy
25-Jan-23
Agreed, Timex, as evidenced above! I caught ^^^this POS trespassing poacher in November. They figure they can feign ignorance if they get caught, and usually just get an ass chewing, which this guy got a Pro Bowl caliber one. He also got a citation for trespassing while hunting, as well as some others for shooting game out of season (which the pinhead had video evidence of on his gun mounted GoPro)

EDIT……..In Iowa, landowners are not required by law, to post their property. It is one’s responsibility to know where the property boundaries are. You are also not allowed to go onto someone’s property without express consent of the property owner or manager, however, you do have the right to track a wounded animal onto private property without the owner’s permission. You cannot bring a weapon with you without the owner’s permission.

From: bigswivle
25-Jan-23
6 strand barb wire fence around our place. Every thing private down here is completely fenced off.

From: RonP
25-Jan-23
when i owned land i did not post it. i put up signs 'ask permission to hunt'. i never received one phone call asking for permission. many times the signs were torn down.

i didn't have game cameras up and the location of the land was too far and difficult to access for me to monitor regularly. there were often 4-wheeler tracks and boot prints where people trespassed. :(.

the local sheriff was an a-hole fwiw.

From: drycreek
25-Jan-23
My place is not posted. I found four wheeler tracks many years ago and I’m pretty sure I know who it was. Prior to that the fence was in poor repair but I had that side and another fenced. The only tresspassers I’ve had after that is damn hogs. (That I know of, but I do run cameras)

We had a tresspasser on our lease this year, caught him on two cameras. The GW visited with him and so did we. Pretty sure he won’t be back. We run cameras there too, and some of them aren’t on plots, they are on trails or roads. My buddy runs cell cameras so we’re pretty up to date on joyriders, not so much if they’re on foot and in the woods.

From: scentman
25-Jan-23
t-roy, that pic is just unnerving to me. Is he a neighbor or known to area?

25-Jan-23
Scent man x2…

And who the hell walks the deer woods with a brown frigen coat on? Good lord

From: Leo17
25-Jan-23
wow Troy what was he hunting?

From: Dale06
25-Jan-23
Mine is not posted. But cameras monitor it, and my brother farms across the road from it, so it gets watched.

25-Jan-23
I post, and I lease. Unfortunately some of the land is hard for us to access and the f’ers to the north sneak over. Before the season of 2021, I walked around our north border and found 3 stands and a feeder. I took them all and pitched them over the fence. I then had a talk with the landowner to the north and he played the dumb dumb role. He said he might know who it is but never gave me any names. Promised it wasn’t his two boys because they lived out of state. In the end he said he’d change the locks on his gates. A month later I asked if he’d found out who it was and if he’d changed the locks. His reply… “You know, I’m getting tired of you harassing me.” LOL!

At that point I told him if I found any other stands I’d just take them to the sheriffs office. For the record, that landowner is a local attorney. ;)

From: sitO
25-Jan-23

sitO's embedded Photo
sitO's embedded Photo
I had to post some of our ground in 2020, but the day before I told this known trespasser to stay off and then he did this.

He now sits in the county jail, and he'll be there until next November.

25-Jan-23
No. But, mine nestled well behind a locked gate and boarded on one side by the national forest. And, it’s not very big either.

From: t-roy
25-Jan-23

t-roy's embedded Photo
This is the cellular trail cam pic that helped me catch him.
t-roy's embedded Photo
This is the cellular trail cam pic that helped me catch him.
What’s your attorney’s phone number, sitO??!!

Leo/scentman …….He was squirrel, coon, opossum, skunk, woodpecker, songbird, yada, yada, yada hunting. We have lots of issues with the Hmongs coming down from the Minneapolis/St. Paul area in big groups, and hunting (starting out, at least) on public hunting areas in our area. Once they get there, they pretty much go wherever they please. The closest public land to me, is over 1/2 mile away. They pay little attention to boundaries, or game laws for that matter. On September 11th, I got videos of 2 more of them on 3 different cameras behind my house. 2 of the cameras were within 150-200 yards of my house. THAT is a little unnerving! I rarely have any problems with trespassing by locals. These Hmongs are another story.

I only have 2 cellular trailcams, and they’re in harder to access spots. The cameras that I got the other 2 trespassers on, are regular cameras, that I probably check every couple of weeks, so I had no idea that those ba$tards were right behind my house until a week or two after they had already been through there.

From: scentman
25-Jan-23
t-roy, I just thought your name could come up on a Key and Peele school skit.... anyhoooot, are these legal immigrants? I mean do the Hmongs have legal rights to firearms and posses hunting licenses?

From: APauls
25-Jan-23
Jeepers Troy that takes the cake!! What a crystal clear image though! In good news your cams are working great. You can count that guys hair follicles! What brand of cam?

From: Thornton
25-Jan-23
Bigswivl- what does 6 strand barbed wire have to to with anything? There's a million miles of it here in the Flint Hills and I can hop in in 2 seconds if the wires are tight and I have a support post or corner post to grab as I go over.

From: Whocares
26-Jan-23
APauls, I was wondering about his trail cam brand as well!

From: jconman
26-Jan-23
i agree trespassers are a real pain when it happens -but we should all have the common sense to treat everyone with respect especially when they have a weapon in their hands- we cannot put ourselves in a more dangerous position by being over aggressive even though that is what we all want to do to protect our property --we all can recall the tragedy that took place in northern wisconsin years ago

26-Jan-23
Yeah, let’s take them roses and cake while asking them to please acknowledge private property. That’ll fix it.

From: scentman
26-Jan-23
Just re read all posts, not a mention of any aggression until your post.

26-Jan-23
I’m lucky to have great land owners all around me. I don’t need to post. It would be a nightmare to be concerned with that constantly.

From: MQQSE
26-Jan-23

MQQSE's embedded Photo
MQQSE's embedded Photo
Some of you may remember when the incident in this book happened in WI. This book has a good section in it about the Hmong and how they view property rights etc…

Tragic story but interesting too.

From: bigswivle
26-Jan-23
There's a million miles of it here in the Flint Hills and I can hop in in 2 seconds if the wires are tight and I have a support post or corner post to grab as I go over.

What an amazing athlete you are. Fences in Florida mean don’t cross unless you have permission. A lot of land I hunt in Illinois and other states have no fences, hence the need for posted signs.

From: Supernaut
26-Jan-23
My brother in law and I have permission to hunt a friend's farm here in SW, PA. We post his property boundaries every year for him. Every year there are posters that are torn down by trespassers. He is a farmer, lives on the property with his family and he has a regular full time job as well and so does his wife so they aren't there 24/7. Both him, myself and my brother in law have caught numerous trespassers every year. I have seen them approach the property line, stop and look at the posters and just keep right on walking. This behavior isn't anything new in my neck of PA.

Posting and posters only keep out honest people.

It was worse when I lived and hunted in Lancaster. The Amish and Mennonites have ZERO regard for property lines or fish and game regulations in my experience.

From: WYelkhunter
26-Jan-23
Luckily in WY you don't' have to post or even fence your land. It is up to the Hunter/Recreationist to know where the boundaries are and stay off private property.

From: sitO
26-Jan-23
County Attorney on that one Troy, and several other charges.

Here in KS you can use purple paint to deter, but unless posted "No Trespassing" it won't hold up in court.

From: t-roy
26-Jan-23

t-roy's embedded Photo
t-roy's embedded Photo
My bad, guys. This is the cellular trailcam pic.

Jconman……..That incident did come to mind while I was giving this guy the “what for”. Immediately upon confronting this guy, I took pics and some video of him and sent them to my wife. It definitely could have turned ugly, but I was standing about 2’ right in front of this guy and his gun was slung on his shoulder. He may have been able to have shot me, but that would have been AFTER the a$$ whipping that one of us would have taken.

From: Supernaut
26-Jan-23
It's always sketchy confronting trespassers.

Glad it worked out for you t-roy.

26-Jan-23
Scentman, do you want a second assumption. Or, was troys description not clear enough for you the first time? If not, his last post should be.

I’ll never understand why anyone suggests confrontation has to always be subtle. Yes, a trespasser may one day shoot me or try to whip my butt. But, I’ve never lived by that kind of code. Instead, I think it’s very effective that the trespasser understand that I may just as well shoot him or whip his tale if he gets rowdy or threatens harm. It’s been pretty effective so far in keeping my stuff mine to use as I see fit.

26-Jan-23
My lands are posted, and heavily guarded with cameras. Unfortunately hunters are my biggest trespassers. Game warden issues 2-3 trespassing citations per year.

From: Supernaut
26-Jan-23
I agree with you WV.

From: Bou’bound
26-Jan-23
THIS IS A RECAP OF THE 2004 MURDERS IN WISCONSIN

IT IS UNSPEAKABLE AND A REMINDER THAT ANY ENCOUNTER WITH ANY STRANGER CAN GO IN A TOTALLY INSANE DIRECTION AND LITTLE IS PREDICTABLE.

Two of eight Wisconsin deer hunters survived a shooting rampage Nov. 21, 2004, for one reason: The enraged killer ran out of ammo after firing his SKS 7.62×39 semiautomatic rifle 22 times.

That man—Chai Soua Vang, 36, of St. Paul, Minnesota, a certified sharpshooter and six-year National Guard veteran—opened fire by first shooting the group’s only armed hunter. He then shot three where they sat or crouched, chased down a father and adult son who fled, and ambushed a young nurse and her driver from behind as they rode unarmed on an ATV to render aid.

Of the dead, Vang shot four in the back and two in the side, executing three with follow-up shots as if dispatching a wounded animal. When he pulled his rifle’s trigger the 23rd time while confronting a hunter he previously wounded, Vang discovered it was empty.

Retired newspaper reporter Ed Culhane still can’t shake the senseless, ruthless, spontaneous violence detailed by state prosecutors during Vang’s trial in September 2005.

“The sadness of it all never leaves,” said Culhane, who covered the six-day event. “Without question, it was the most horrific trial I covered in my 25-year career. The cold brutality of it all; especially how Vang hid as the ATV approached with the young woman. He waited ‘til they passed so he had an easy target, shot them in the back, and then finished them off.”

Not About Hunting The tragedy was so bizarre that most reports at the time overlooked an obvious fact: Until that day, mass shootings never involved hunters and hunting situations; and none since have involved hunters. More specifically, of 160 mass shootings (defined as at least three victims) since 1999, only the Chai Vang case involved hunters. Further, none of the 83 cases listed from 1920 through 1999 involved hunters. Most involve family members, co-workers or former co-workers, or innocent strangers in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Mike Bartz, a retired Wisconsin conservation warden, was the senior law enforcement officer at the crime scene that day. “That shooting had nothing to do with deer hunting,” Bartz said.

Further, most mass shootings involve premeditation. Nothing that happened that Sunday in northern Wisconsin’s Blue Hills region was planned. Vang had slept little the previous two days after friends picked him up after work at 1:30 a.m. on Saturday in St. Paul. He spent much of Sunday morning tracking and shooting at a doe in a public forest about 20 miles northeast of Rice Lake, Wisconsin.

Vang, now 52, is a member of the Hmong community from Laos, a people who fought courageously for U.S. interests in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War. His father was a lieutenant and his mother a nurse in the Hmong Army. Communist forces persecuted the Hmong after the war, forcing them to flee to Thailand as refugees. From there, Vang’s parents brought their family to the U.S. Many Hmong settled in Minneapolis-St. Paul, and Wisconsin cities like Wausau, Sheboygan, Milwaukee, La Crosse, and Green Bay.

Hot-Tempered Scofflaw Vang was an angry renegade. He bragged to coworkers about poaching deer on land he owned in Minnesota, and had citations for trespassing and going over bag limit on fish. His first marriage ended after he accused his wife of infidelity and pointed a loaded handgun at her. His second marriage ended after he nearly choked his wife to death for gambling away $3,000.

Vang also disliked trespassing laws, believing all land should be open to hunting. After spotting an unoccupied treestand about 2 miles from his group’s campsite on Nov. 21, 2004, Vang pulled on a camouflage facemask and climbed up. He didn’t know who owned the stand or the 80-acre property, but he could see their cabin roof from his perch. The owners — friends and business partners Terry Willers and Bob Crotteau—were in camp with 13 friends and family members, with more heading to the camp for their traditional Sunday afternoon deer drive.

Terry Willers spotted Vang in the usually-unused treestand around 11:15 a.m. and called the cabin with his radio to see who was up there. He learned that everyone was back in camp, so Willers walked to the treestand, told Vang to come down, and directed him to head east 100 yards and get off the property. Their conversation was polite and Vang apologized. But instead of heading east through the woods as directed, Vang followed a camp trail southward. Willers followed for about five minutes to ensure he left.

Unfolding Tragedy Meanwhile, Willers called the cabin around 11:30 a.m. to say he had evicted the “tree rat.” The elder Crotteau replied that he wanted to make sure the trespasser got the message to never return. Crotteau, his son Joey, and two friends then rode out on the Crotteau’s UTV. Another followed on an ATV.

Willers had no way of knowing tragedy awaited. Before noon …

Willers would be temporarily paralyzed by a bullet through his lower neck and upper back, making him unable to use his rifle, the only firearm on site among the landowners. Friend Lauren Hesebeck would be struggling with a bullet wound in his left upper arm and shoulder, but surviving. Friend Denny Drew, 55, would lie mortally wounded, shot through the lower chest, pancreas, stomach, and small intestine. He would die a day later. Friend Mark Roidt, 28, would lie dead, shot through the head while seated on his ATV. Robert Crotteau, 42, would lie dead where Vang chased him down and shot him through the heart. Joey Crotteau, 20, would lie dead where Vang chased him down and shot him four times in the back; the last bullet striking his neck and head. Willers’ daughter, Jessica, 27, and friend Al Laski, 43, would lie dead down a trail alongside Laski’s ATV. Vang, after reversing his blaze-orange jacket to its camo side, hid near a curve in the trail when he heard the ATV approaching. Thinking Jessica and Laski were likely armed and looking for him, Vang waited until they passed. When he fired, the bullet struck Jessica in the left buttock, blew through her hip, and struck Laski, shattering his lower spine and abdomen. Vang ran over, shot Laski through the back and heart to finish him, and then stepped behind Jessica as she crawled screaming and pleading, and fired a shot through her neck into her brain.

Two Hotheads Collide What triggered such cold, deadly rage? Trial testimony by Terry Willers and Lauren Hesebeck—as well as from Vang, who testified against his attorneys’ advice—described an angry, one-sided verbal confrontation when Bob Crotteau arrived.

“My takeaway was that two hotheads met in the woods, and one of them had a horrible reputation for being a loudmouth,” Bartz said. “(Bob Crotteau) started yelling profanities at Vang, and apparently used some racial epithets.”

Culhane had a similar take. “It came down to two strong personalities; one a bully and the other homicidal,” he said. “I came away from the trial really not liking (Crotteau). He was full of himself with all his friends around, even though the other guy had a loaded rifle. He was so into his bullying and being the big guy that he didn’t suspect what [Vang, who is 5-foot, 4 inches tall] was capable of doing. His actions didn’t justify six murders, but he behaved really badly.”

The hunting party loosely surrounded Vang while Crotteau yelled, but no one hit, kicked, or pushed the trespasser. Joey Crotteau, however, twice blocked Vang’s path when he tried leaving. Bob Crotteau demanded Vang’s name so he could file a trespass complaint, but Vang refused. Crotteau told his son to step away and let Vang pass, and then noticed Vang’s backtag holder flipped upside down on his coat’s upper back.

Until 2016, Wisconsin required deer hunters to display a 3.5- by 9-inch tag with a seven-digit ID number on their upper back. Crotteau stepped toward Vang and flipped down the backtag. Drew and Hesebeck then read the numbers aloud as Willers drew them into the dust on the UTV’s hood. Meanwhile, Joey Crotteau accused Vang of giving him the bird, which Vang denied. The elder Crotteau again warned Vang he would report him for trespassing, and walked to his UTV to end the confrontation.

Combat Mode Only Willers and Hesebeck kept watching Vang, who was seething with humiliation while walking away. After a 30-yard gap opened between Vang and the six men, Vang crouched, unslung his shouldered rifle, and flipped a quick-disconnect lever to remove its scope. His National Guard training taught that open sights are faster and more effective at close range.

As described in David Whitehurst’s 2015 book, “Tree Stand Murders,” Vang raised his rifle in one smooth, continuous sweeping motion as he circled right, kneeled, and aimed at Willers, the group’s only armed person. Vang later said, “If I don’t shoot him, he would shoot me.”

Then the massacre ensued. Vang’s first shot missed Willers as he ran and dove for cover, but Willers landed atop his rifle and couldn’t turn over before Vang’s second shot hit his lower left neck, paralyzing him. Vang instantly turned toward the men on their machines and shot Roidt, who hit the ground dead, as his ATV, still in gear, idled forward. Vang shot Drew next as the Crotteaus fled, and fired three shots at close range while chasing Hesebeck around the UTV. His third shot flattened Hesebeck, who fell stunned and still.

Assuming Hesebeck was dead, Vang raced after Bob Crotteau, whose blaze-orange coat made him easy to see. As he fled, Crotteau called the cabin on his walky-talky to tell Laski to bring guns. Vang’s first shot missed but the second hit Crotteau in the chest, instantly killing him. Willers, meanwhile, had regained feeling in his fingers, and called the cabin for help.

By that time Vang was chasing Joey Crotteau, who fled down a trail. Vang sprinted to cut the corner to the trail to close the gap, and shot him in the lower back at about 65 yards. Vang reloaded, approached closer as Crotteau struggled forward, and shot him again. Vang then closed in and shot him twice more from behind, putting the final shot into his head.

After next ambushing and killing Laski and Jessica Willers on Laski’s ATV, Vang returned to retrieve his scope and leave, thinking he had killed every witness. As he neared the site, he and Hesebeck came face to face. Vang said, “You not dead yet?” and raised his rifle to shoot. He fired as Hesebeck grabbed Willers’ rifle with his right hand and dove for cover. Shots zipped past over Hesebeck’s head.

Though he could point but not aim the rifle because of his wounded left arm, Hesebeck tried to shoot back. But when he pulled the trigger, the safety was still engaged. He dragged the unfamiliar rifle alongside his body to feel for the safety, and pushed it in. He pointed it again and fired once. He then heard a slight metallic sound from Vang’s rifle, and realized Vang was out of bullets.

Whitehurst described the standoff: “Their eyes met. Neither moved. Vang had the ability to shoot, but not the bullets. Hesebeck had the bullets, but not the ability.”

A diesel truck was now approaching from camp. Even if he had more bullets, Vang knew he had to flee. He didn’t have time to silence every witness who had seen him transform from trespasser to mass murderer. Forsaking his riflescope, Vang zig-zagged into the forest.

Meanwhile, although cell phone service was weak and intermittent, those in camp had summoned state police, conservation wardens, and sheriffs’ departments. After setting up a perimeter to prevent Vang’s escape, the wardens used an airplane to search for hunters throughout the afternoon, and sent in tactical units to escort them from the woods.

About 5:30 p.m., with darkness deepening, conservation warden Jeremy Peery noticed an ATV heading west on the Serley Camp Trail toward his post at the intersection with DeJung Road, roughly 2 miles south of the crime scene. A hunter named Walter Cieslak was driving the ATV, giving a lost, polite hunter a ride.

“When I shined my flashlight on the passenger, I saw he was wearing camouflage and he fit our suspect’s description,” Peery said. “I drew my gun, and gave him commands to put his hands up and listen to my instructions. He cooperated. He didn’t resist. His backtag was still pinned inside his jacket. We knew we had the right guy.”

Bartz and Culhane said it was distressing to hear and read racial slurs against the Hmong community after the murders, but said it’s simplistic to say racial tensions triggered the crime.

“Vang said before and after the trial that he had been disrespected and (that at least three of them) deserved to die,” Bartz said. “I don’t care if you’re a white Irishman or from any other culture. You don’t kill people because they disrespect you.”

Culhane agreed. “When Vang testified, he was not a good witness in his own defense,” he said. “His anger was on display. When it was over, you knew the jury got it right. He wasn’t the victim. He was a murderer.”

The jury deliberated for three hours and 15 minutes before convicting Vang on all six counts of first-degree murder, and three counts of attempted first-degree murder. He is imprisoned for life at the Anamosa State Penitentiary in northeastern Iowa.

From: drycreek
26-Jan-23
There is only one villain in that story, and that’s the bastard that wounded and murdered the people who had every right to eject the perp from the property. He knew he was tresspassing and his record shows him to be aggressive and not afraid to bend others to his will by force. I hope he got the death penalty.

From: jjs
26-Jan-23
Long story with the Hmong in Wi.& Mn. and the DNR. Hunting is strong in their culture but following the game laws are not. S.E. Mn. the DNR are or were doing a study on the depletion of squirrels but wouldn't admit who is the culprit. A group of Hmong?last year went to S.Mo. and were arrested for over 200+ limit of squirrels.

Knew a fellow gent where I use to live in Wi., 4 Hmong shot several doe off his property without permission, he called the warden and the warden let them go and fined the owner for not properly punching his kill tag on a buck he shot that morning.

My brother was in the MACV-SOG in Nam he told me that when in was in Laos the Hmong would have their cache site supplied but would tell the NVC where it was for a reward, he would take his team the opposite way, the Hmong were to help to rescue down pilots but none ever made it out again the reward, do your own research.

I was in Prescott, Az when the Hayward shooting took place and a couple, from Oxnard,Ca., were at a park that afternoon seen my Wi. tag and ask me if I knew about the Hmong shooting, I thought for sure it took place where I lived since there was a strong presence of them on the public land and was surprised it took place in Hayward. The couple knew the problems when the Hmong were first brought to Oxnard.

I do not want to sound racist but when a special group have been given to break game laws which we are to follow and are above the law I do have a problem with it. I could keep going on but I'll just leave it here. No one should be above the law and be careful when confronting a trespasser.

From: t-roy
26-Jan-23

t-roy's embedded Photo
t-roy's embedded Photo
t-roy's embedded Photo
His buddy
t-roy's embedded Photo
His buddy
Here’s a couple of screenshots from the trailcam videos of the other varmintKong trespassers from right behind my house.

From: deerhunter72
26-Jan-23
When I bought my ground I did post it because there were 2 hunters were actively hunting it, one had permission from the prior owners and the other did not. Both are known trespassers in the area so I came out pretty strong on from the outset, letting them know that I owned the ground now and that they weren't allowed on it. I'm also known myself for being someone who has run off people from other property that I had permission to hunt on and can be an a-hole when the need arises. The one who had prior permission is a smartass young kid who still has permission to hunt the adjacent ground and he pushed back some, putting stands right on the line. I had to confront him once about it and he got the point pretty quick and I haven't had any issues since then. If I ever catch him stepping foot on my ground, I will call the sheriff and game warden. Funny thing is, he's going to school to be a conservation police officer.

Those 2 particular people aside, I'm not a tyrant and before I posted the ground I went to all of the neighbors in the area and let them know they were welcome to do anything they needed or wanted to do, except for hunting. I get pictures of people from time to time, but I usually know them and I've yet to catch a hunter in any of my stands. I know people do coyote hunt in the area, but that's fine with me.

As far as engaging a trespasser, I guess I've been fairly lucky. There have been a couple of times when things could've gone bad. Nothing is worth dying over. That story out of Wisconsin is a real tragedy.

From: Buskill
26-Jan-23
Posting the property properly may not deter trespassers but it gives the law more options for punishment if you can catch them. In Va you can pay a trespass fine out of court like a speeding ticket if the property is unmarked. On posted land , however, you must show up for a court date and the fines are bigger.

From: Babysaph
26-Jan-23
I do not post my land as it is behind a locked gate and is landocked.

From: bigswivle
26-Jan-23
I now identify as Hmong, see you this hunting season T-Roy!!

From: Groundhunter
26-Jan-23
I don't post my land. Never had an issue. UP.

From: Shiloh
26-Jan-23
Ha!!! That’s what I was thinking Swivel!!! I thought T-Roy kept a closer eye on his place. I can take a butt chewing, but I hope he stops short of a but whooping!!

From: 8point
26-Jan-23
Like most, I posted for the first few years. It didn't work so well, so I just spent more time on the property. I earned the name "the old prick down the road". That worked much better. One guy wanted to go back the way he came in. "No, go strait to the road and hike 3 miles back". End of story.

From: Grey Ghost
26-Jan-23
That's flat out creepy, T-roy. I'm sure you'd rather have that mountain lion roaming around. I would.

Matt

From: BOHUNTER09
26-Jan-23
I bought some property last fall and have a good relationship with the two adjoining neighbors. I posted it. Spending the winter in Florida.I got a call from a guy in the area saying they had rabbit hunted the north end in the past and asked if they could go there. I really respected that he took the initiative to find out who owned the ground and ask permission. I said yes. There are some good people out there.

From: sitO
26-Jan-23
With OnX, and other, it's fairly easy...maybe too easy, to get ahold of landowners nowadays and ask for permission.

From: RD in WI
26-Jan-23
My wife and I own 7.35 acres that we don't have to post due to how it is situated with larger private land parcels surrounding it on 3 sides. I think the greatest neighbor to have is one who is wealthy. The neighbor to our north is part of an extremely wealthy family and if trespassers became a problem, they would likely have the book thrown at them - if it was even handled through legal channels. Sometimes you get lucky - other times, not so much.

From: Thornton
26-Jan-23
Bigswivl, almost everything here in Kansas is fenced,including WIHA and public. Permission is also required anywhere, fence or no fence. I simply stated it is easy to cross because it is, and you implied it serves as a barrier.

26-Jan-23
Speaking of trespassers with guns…

Several years back we were sleeping at camp in our RV when 4 guys came riding up to our camp on 4 wheelers. They were hog hunters who were “looking for their dog”. They were all 4 packing sidearms.

My wife saw the headlights and woke me up and my buddy Rob was in camp too. We walked out and confronted them and asked why they were over A MILE on our place? Since none of us had a gun in camp, my buddy and I took the civil route and told them they are trespassing and they needed to leave. They were about 500 yards from our South gate and asked if they could go out and hit the road because that was the direction their dog had went. Nope!

They eventually went back the way they came and I’m assuming had to go the 1.5 - 2 miles around to locate their dog.

In the end, they had crossed a fence (cut it), a major tributary and had covered over a mile of land to get to our camp at 2:30 am! Wasn’t a good feeling at all! Especially since they looked like a bunch of hillbillies on 4 wheelers and packing heat. Just glad my buddy was there as well to show somewhat of a presence. My wife was in the camper walking around acting like a third person. They never saw her.

From: Jebediah
26-Jan-23
Interesting. In some New England states (MA, NH), all unposted land is huntable.

From: t-roy
26-Jan-23
Pretty unnerving to say the least, Rick!

Bigswivle……..probably would be best to fly into the Twin Cities and rent a car with MN plates. That way, you’ll blend right in!

Shiloh….I stated there was a good possibility that there might be a butt whoopin handed out. Not sure if I would have been on the giving or receiving end…

GG……Ironically, I got the video of these two bastards in the same spot as where I got the video of the mountain lion. Too bad they hadn’t showed up at the same time.

From: bigswivle
26-Jan-23
Bigswivle……..probably would be best to fly into the Twin Cities and rent a car with MN plates. That way, you’ll blend right in!

Perfect!!!!

From: drycreek
26-Jan-23
I don’t know the tresspassing penalties in other states, but here if you have a firearm it’s a felony. I believe when that law was passed it cut some of the tresspassing out. I asked a game warden exactly what a landowner could do if he caught a tresspasser carrying a firearm. He told me, and some other guys too, that you could demand ID and hold him for the sherrif or a GW. Now whether you want to escalate to that level is up to you. For me it would depend on the situation.

From: t-roy
26-Jan-23
Not a felony here, drycreek. Wish it was! I agree, it would definitely make them think twice (or more) before going where they KNOW they’re not supposed to.

From: Bou'bound
26-Jan-23
……..you could demand ID and hold him for the sheriff or a GW

Good luck with that.

From: Huntiam
26-Jan-23
thanks to t-roy I learned of about a whole new group of people tonight . Didn’t no anything about a Hmong had never heard of them.

26-Jan-23
Chai Vang was arrested where a two-track met a forest service road. That two-track headed up a hill to a logging landing where my buddy and I set up our camp for several years. My wife’s family knew those who had been shot and most in that hunting camp.

Through an odd confluence of events, we were hunting elsewhere that year. A change that occurred Friday morning before the season. The shootings and murders took place on Sunday.

Had we been there, we would have heard every shot. And the reports make it sound as though Vang walked through where we were normally camped just before he was arrested.

Kind of creepy. A small, simple twist of fate and we would have been there. That’s where we were headed late Thursday night.

From: Pat Lefemine
26-Jan-23
Geez T-Roy, makes me relieved that I'm bordered by Amish?

What I wouldn't pay to see the confrontation between you and those Trespassers. I bet it was Epic!

From: t-roy
26-Jan-23
Yeah, it’s too bad I didn’t think to video it on my phone…eh? ;-)

From: Buskill
27-Jan-23
Attempting to “hold” a trespasser till the law shows up is a terrible idea. Get a description, take a pic or video but to hold the guy either means you likely had to physically subdue him or pull a gun on him. Either is way too risky for a simple trespass issue. We aren’t talking about a rape or murder.

From: Bou’bound
27-Jan-23
To have a LEO even mention that is irresponsible. None of us know who is in front of us on even the least aggressive encounter, let alone if we tell someone they are being restrained and being turned in for a "crime". People have been killed for a heck of a lot less than that level of aggressiveness often. See "road rage".

We have no idea what the triggers are and capabilities are of others. The meek and mild can be monsters. Look no further than the 32 year old mother of 3 in Duxbury MA who decided to strangle her three kids Tuesday (5, 3, and 7 months) and then jump out the window to try to kill herself. The 7 year old did not die. The others, aside from mom did. Was this some degenerate drug addled trashy person who has a history of terrible behavior? No, it was a well educated white mom from wealthy suburb, happily married by all accounts but dealing with depression, who was a delivery and OBGYN nurse at the premier Boston hospital. Who would have figured?

People are crazy enough without being unduly encouraged.

If you look online at the WI shooting at the hunting camp it is indisputable that the situation was essentially over and parties were going their own way until someone decided to make further comments, block egress, and make threats to the stranger, and physically touch him. They had to prove one last point and get the last word in and reinforce their power in the situation. Unfortunately that stranger then became emboldened to let his violent side come out and his insanity show. He actually had more power because he was crazy enough to use what was at his disposal when nobody could even contemplate such a possibility. How different would than situation have been if someone said "we made our point its over lets go back and get lunch then do our deer drive" instead of seeking personal identification, touching the other person, and adding humiliation and fear into the conversation.

Often discretion is the better part of valor.

From: canepole
27-Jan-23
What I find ironic is how many here grew up hunting and fishing on others property. I know lots of us started off hunting rabbits, squirrels, and waterfowl before we became deer hunters. Most of us didn't need to ask for permission because 30, 40, and 50 years ago most land owners didn't mind as long gates were shut, we didn't litter, and overall were just responsible. Even asking a "grumpy old farmer" there was a good chance he might have just warned you not to shoot that covey up by the house but he didn't really mind you hunting his land.

I am in no way condoning trespassing, in fact I believe there should be repercussions trespassing and What I find ironic is how many here grew up hunting and fishing on others property. I know lots of us started off hunting rabbits, squirrels, and waterfowl before we became deer hunters. Most of us didn't need to ask for permission because 30, 40, and 50 years ago most land owners didn't mind as long gates were shut, we didn't litter, and overall were just responsible. Even asking a "grumpy old farmer" there was a good chance he might have just warned you not to shoot that covey up by the house but he didn't really mind you hunting his land.

I am in no way condoning trespassing, in fact I believe there should be repercussions for trespassing and severe ones for poaching. I'm just wondering what's going to happen to the next generation of young hunters who families don't have access to a lease? Public land can be extremely crowded in some areas. Just curious.

From: deerhunter72
27-Jan-23
canepole, I agree. I grew up running all over the neighbor's fields. I posted my ground to target 2 known trespassers but told all of the neighbors they could do whatever they wanted except deer hunt, especially their kids.

From: Shiloh
27-Jan-23
I don’t always agree with Bou, but his point above is exactly what I was thinking while reading about the deer camp killings. Someone pushed that guy over the edge when it could’ve been let go and they’d have likely never seen him again. Just to be clear……I don’t mind a good fight and I’m not always for walking away, but……

27-Jan-23
There is always a person or two on everyone of these threads that totally misrepresents those who would act in a different way other than complacent.

No one suggests that fists and guns are the right approach. But, let’s be honest. The only reason we have these threads and warnings are due to complacent approaches and behaviors associated with landowners catching these trespassers.

Vang knew he was trespassing. He knew he didn’t belong. And on the flip side, there was a man there that kept prodding and poking him. Until he snapped.

Had the loud mouth acted with his hands instead of his big mouth, this likely wouldn’t have happened. A few bruises. An ego or two hurt. But, everyone goes home.

It’s the same stuff on these pages. A good bit of men would rather insult another, degrade another, do whatever it takes to beat another man in his mind. All with their mouths.

However, it’s easy to talk about it. Which emboldens, threatens, humiliates, insults, etc…. Which leads to this crap.

I don’t know the answers to it all. But, had the group been willing to act the part instead of talk it, Vang would have left with some. bruises. Better yet, he’d been escorted out. Instead, foul mouthing for affect led to a lot of people getting killed.

There is nothing wrong with your actions a words being so clear that no one contemplates trespassing on you again. That, or keep with the meeker approaches. But for heavens sake, carry a firearm!!

From: Patdel
27-Jan-23
T roy, do you have public land close to you? If you do, its nearly impossible to stop those guys.

From: ROUGHCOUNTRY
27-Jan-23
If the group was going to humiliate the guy with racial epithets then you take his gun away and tell him he can pick it up at the sheriff's office.......they had the numbers to do it. You physically or verbally corner someone and you never know what might happen..........

They also could have simply held/constrained him there until sheriff arrived..........

From: t-roy
27-Jan-23
Patdel………The closest public is roughly 1/4—1/2 mile from me (which is nothing to them) This guy was parked in a public hunting area parking area about a mile from my boundary. He walked across 2 other pieces of private land (that are also posted) to get where I caught him. The wardens deal with them constantly. According to the warden, they oftentimes drop several people off in different spots next to private, and they all still-hunt their way back to the public hunting area to where their vehicles are parked. I was luckily, just at the right place at the right time, when I just so happened to be in a stand close to the camera that notified me when this puke walked past it, otherwise, he would have been long gone by the time I got anywhere near him. If you don’t physically catch them, a pic of them doesn’t do much good either (unless you recognize the trespasser) The chance of me recognizing some out of town/stater is slim to none. About 10 years ago, I caught another Hmong and his wife hunting in early September. When I tried to get their names, etc, of course they couldn’t speakee English. There’s no telling how often these people have gone through our (and other’s) properties, unbeknownst to us. Plenty, I’m betting. The only way that I can see to, at least slow it down, is to make the punishment so bad, that it’s not worth the risk to them. Making trespassing with a firearm a felony, would be a good start.

From: blue spot
28-Jan-23
Certainly a lot of different things to comment on in this thread. Especially as a Newengland guy where we have permissive trespass on unimproved land.

But for you guys trying to cut down on trespassing on posting land I will relay what a local choose and cut Christmas tree grower did. He had a fair bit of road frontage. It was posted and fenced with relatively low welded wire fencing(+- 4 feet tall). Fenced to obviously give the intended message but not so much to be ugly or threatening on a family friendly retail type business. The fence was easily jumped or climbed. He suffered a lot of poaching of his trees. After he began coating the wire fence in heavy axel grease it cut down considerably on the poaching ! A 3-4 foot tall fence around your hunting lot would easily accomplish the same thing letting the desired game pass freely but discourage the two legged ones.

31-Jan-23

EmbryOklahoma's Link
Hmong? Also, the picture of the “deer” in the article is quite hilarious. :)

From: Saphead
31-Jan-23
I think even with the trespass issue the best option for people who don't have a lease or don't like crowded public land is to do like i did and work your 4ss off and save your money till you can buy a piece of your own land. Its a matter of what's important to you.

From: Bou’bound
02-Feb-23
the picture of the deer hunting gun is more ridiculous than the picture of the deer. what the heck is that contraption.

From: DanaC
02-Feb-23
Typical 'MSR'. Not my cuppa coffee but it floats a lot of boats nowadays.

From: Ace
02-Feb-23
Very interesting thread.

Sometimes it's hard to describe to people who don't own land how frustrating it is to deal with trespassers. You work hard, save your money, sacrifice other things, you make a big investment in land (exactly so you DON'T have to deal with this crap) and others just walk in and help themselves to what's yours. The ones who are confused or mistaken about boundaries are merely frustrating, but the repeat offenders, the willful 'don't give a shit' types or the ones who act like they are going to get aggressive are the worst.

When I was about 13 (in PA) I found a guy in my deer stand (my family's land), I spotted him before I got too close, so I went and got my uncle who was hunting nearby. We went back and the guy thought it was OK to be where he was. He said he had paid the Caretaker of a nearby Summer Camp for a place to stay and hunt, he even had a hand drawn map of the area with MY stand marked on it. I was pissed, because I had actually selected that spot and built the (homemade) tree stand myself. The guy left peacefully, maybe because there were 2 of us with rifles, or maybe because he knew he shouldn't have been there, who knows. Trespassers were almost unheard of back then. There was no public land around for miles.

When I first bought my own land in NY I kicked out a lot of kids on dirt bikes and quads and quite a few old timers and I heard the line "I have been hunting here since before you were born" a lot. It took a while but they mostly moved on. I got to know the area cops and Warden, and one of them told me, be firm, maybe give each one a single warning, then have us arrest them. That property has a fair amount of public land nearby, more than a few times I've used the line "Dude, I have 80 acres, there is 14,000 acres of State Land over that way, STAY OVER THERE, Some of my friends really are Crazy and don't don't clearly identify their targets before deciding to shoot".

One guy got off his quad acting like he wanted to fight me, I was carrying a loaded shotgun and had my German wirehaired pointer, who was very very much concerned with the safety of the guy who fed her and took her hunting. When I pointed out that the odds, he reconsidered and left. Sometimes people catch themselves just BEFORE they do something really stupid. I have found that if you have a dog or other people with you, (or if they think there are others with you), they usually leave without too much of a fuss.

I do have some cell cams around that place, and when I point that out, that usually gets their attention. A few homemade signs with that info on them seems to help as well.

I just bought more land in CT, some (hard to access) State land is on one side, so far it hasn't been a huge concern, but ... we'll see how it goes. One neighbor had gotten used to using a part of my place to hunt, so we had the talk.

Trespassing Laws are very different in different states, and so are hunting traditions. It's a new world out there and I'd never blame the landowners for defending what's theirs, of course if you pick a fight, you could come out bloody (or worse), so you better consider that before you get in over your head.

02-Feb-23
I adopted a zero tolerance policy. No matter the reason, authorities will be called and the trespassers can explain to them. In all cases I ask for citations to be issued. I use lots of real time cameras on likely trespassing routes, they work !

From: Ace
02-Feb-23
……Ironically, I got the video of these two bastards in the same spot as where I got the video of the mountain lion. Too bad they hadn’t showed up at the same time.

T-Roy, are you SURE there were only 2 of them? Maybe that Lion did part of the job.

From: RBBH
02-Feb-23
12 years ago I purchased 60 acres. Due to habitat improvements and topography, I hold what turkeys are left in the area. The neighbor to the south lets anybody hunt. I dread turkey season. I dont dare take my kids to the best spot to hunt because when it gets daylight, there is usually a gun pointed at us that shouldnt be. I have caught many walking in or out. I take pictures. I am told by the warden to call when I catch em and if he can catch them in the act, he will give tickets. Pictures and statements do nothing. It can be frustrating at times. I did ask if law enforcement would sit with me one morning. I have a full strut gobbler we have used as a decoy in the past. Throw that out and a gobble coming from a speaker would call in the trespassers and make their job easier. They said no..lol.

From: Basil
02-Feb-23
I’ve thought of owning some hunting land for years. I’ve had numerous friends with serious trespassing problems that convinced me otherwise. One guy had kicked some duck hunters off his place. Had his camper up there getting ready to build. Camper got shot to pieces. Another let a neighbor cut hay off his place. He asked to cut some firewood. Gave him very specific instructions where & what he could cut. He showed up unannouy one day & there was a full blown logging operation in there. He kicked them out & the next time he went up there were tracks in the snow up to his gate. A bunch of empty rifle casings were on the ground. His shack was a shouse with sleeping upstairs. His bed was shot full of holes. Someone had to know exactly where he slept. Chilling, some crazy bastards out there.

From: Screwball
02-Feb-23
So may scary encounters, I do not go on our own property without my hand gun or a gun. Had guys try to kick us off our own land, call the sheriff on us for trespassing on our own land, lol. The ones that really ticked me off were when they threatened or kicked our kids out of stands or off the land. Pre-cellphones. Have had the sheriff tell us to be careful with certain individuals and they would only go to see them with a partner. As said above some crazy individuals out there.

From: Bigdog 21
03-Feb-23
There are some really foolish people be carefully call the authorities and let them handle it. But before you ever try to hold someone until authorities arrive check the laws. He may get a trespassing ticket , YOU could be arrested for false imprisonment. Are even worse if a gun is involved. he could press charges, are if the authorities didn't like the way you handled it. They could enforce the law.

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