Contributors to this thread:
Do you enter your trophies in P&Y
So I was told if you don’t enter your P&Y eligible bucks in the book , then they aren’t really P&Y trophies? I just keep pics and walls full of antlers. What say you? Do you enter them ?
I fully agree, if they are not in the book they are not pope and young bucks. Now can you use it as a standard, like “he would qualify” or “P&y caliber” or something like that, absolutely. But he isn’t a P&Y buck till he is measured and in the book IMO.
That said am a big supporter of p&y, and find myself to be fairly hypocritical on this subject. I have many animals that would qualify that I do not have in the book. They are not P&y animals until they are.
But certainly to each his own, if you don’t want to put them in the book fine, they are your trophies to do as you please for whatever reasons you have. Numbers in a book just aren’t that important to me, I support the club in other ways than paying entries. But I have been throwing around the idea of having mine measured and entered, more of a when I get around to it thing, than a pressing issue though.
I enter them, gives P&Y a little bit of cash and maybe in 100 years when I'm dead and gone my great--great-grandkids will have a folder with some of my entries after all my actual trophies have been thrown in the trash.
I tend to agree with that if they are not in the book they are not Pope and Young animals.
With that said I have a number of animals that would score above the minimum. I just choose not to enter them into the book.
I have entered a few. It supports the Club, and makes things official. Many animals are grossly over "scored" guesstimates on social media etc. As I get older it may be for posterity as mentioned as well!
Yes, and I have four ou five that need to be scored, just have been procrastinating
I agree with those above. Don't quote scores if you don't believe in submitting to records programs. Feel free to just keep your pics and a wall full of trophies, there's certainly no requirement to enter them, just call them something other than P&Y or B&C trophies if they aren't actually P&Y or B&C trophies. And on a side note (and this is not directed at the OP), please don't ask official measures to take their personal time away from their families to measure your animals if you aren't entering them. YOU may "just want to know what they would score", but in most cases, the measurer doesn't want to give up their personal time for free to just satisfy your curiosity when you really have no intention of entering them.
I guess I need to be a little more specific. I don’t run around saying my trophies are pope and young. I merely said that I have killed many animals that would qualify as pope and young and was told that none of those count unless they are entered in the book, regardless of their score. I disagree with that, because I don’t need a book to tell me whether it is a trophy or not. I do believe in pope and young however, I have just not taken the time to enter them in the book as I do not run around quoting scores to most people.
Yes...all of my qualifiers are officially scored and entered. My son is following in the same footsteps. Dad killed three P&Y qualifiers after the age of 65, but never entered them. When he passed two years ago this coming Saturday...I chose to enter all three in his name as a tribute to a dedicated bowhunter.
You would be surprised how many people think they have P&Y qualifiers that were never officially scored...and if officially scored...won't make the book. Abnormal points and non-symmetrical deductions can suck the life out of an official net score...and alot of people don't understand that. My most recent entry was an Iowa 8pt buck with two abnormal points that totals 146-1/8th of gross antler...but barely made the book with a net score of 125-7/8ths.
Asking your friend to measure it for you in his free time is not at all the same as calling a measurer you don't know and asking them to waste their personal time when you have no intention of entering it. Of course, he can do whatever he wants, as can you. That wasn't at all the point.
I have taken around two dozen animals that would qualify for P&Y and 3 for B&C but I have never had any of them officially scored or entered. It's not important to me. I support the P&Y club they do a lot of good and I enjoy the record books, but just have no interest in entering them.
I call mine "venison" and enter them in the freezer
I think P&Y is good for bowhunting though I have never entered a critter I have had a few officially measured for my own benefit. Bowhunting has been a big part of my life since 1956 & a couple years ago I had a photo books made for my G-kids. It's 20 pages & contains photos from my 1st arrowed Deer in 1958 thru near the last (100 + photos). It also shows some of my larger competition wins I wanted to share. There is captions on most photos & several dates. I have 8 family members that are in some phase of archery/bowhunting & I just wanted them to see G=Pa was not always old. P&Y like I said is good for archery/bowhunting. Agree or not it's a personal choice & I understand the various opinions of yea or nay..
What will be left when we’re gone if not our P&Y entries? My racks and mounts will be tossed in a dumpster but my entry’s will live on forever. Ha Ha….
I’ve entered every animal that ACTUALLY makes book. It’s a fun experience for me to measure for others and enter mine. I have a dozen “entered” whitetails but if I didn’t enter any whitetails I could say I have around 20. Many racks appear to make book but don’t actually when officially measured. In 15 years of being a Measurer I never had any one regret entry.
The P&Y established minimums are mature animals. If you reach out and meet an Official Measurer you’ll likely make a new bow hunting friend and who knows what opportunities could come your way.
I enter most of my eligible animals but there’s been a few that I missed. Mostly due to them being just above minimum and one that I refuse to enter out of protest!
I don’t care about my name in the book, it’s more about supporting the PY Organization that I am very fond of.
In short, yes.
I need a local scorer for a few more entries.
Yes, if they qualify I will enter them. Great organization that needs our continuing support to keep it alive & thriving.
I have anrrowed elk, antelope, brown and black bear, and whitetails that I’m sure would qualify for the P&Y book. I have not had any officially scored. It just doesn’t interest me. Nothing wrong with doing so, I’m just not interested.
We have several that would qualify ranging from a 132 up to a 176. Unfortunately they were taken in TX on fully fenced military reservations or large ranches that were high fenced.
That said, we have entered black bears that met standards for P&Y or B&C and fully support both organizations.
When some one asks 'what's that score', we just give the measurements and leave it there.
I have about a half dozen white tails and one moose that would qualify if measured and entered. I choose not to. IMO too many people use record books to stroke their egos.
Milnrick. That's too bad that you did not present those for them"book". Earlier
Back in the day PY let deer into the book based on the opinion of the scorer. For instance 5000 acres fenced would get in.
We have several clients in the book based on the scorer discretion
Animals eneterd in the records books, be it P&Y or B&C, are P&Y or B&C tropies.
All others, until entered are “trophies”.
A score is a score until a recordskeeping organization backs it and recognizes it as such.
A 170” whitetail is a 170” whitetail and shouldnt be claimed as anything else, until it is a P&Y or B&C 170” whitetail, entered and approved by the organization.
I enter every one of mine that make it, and 99% of the ones I measure for other hunters get entered as well.
Nope never had a animal entered had plenty measured. I like knowing the measurements of my own personal animals but something about the P&Y and B&C record books just never set right with me. My "trophies" are for me to remember and so much more goes into one then the score.
I had a OM tell me that if I didn’t enter the rack after he measured it, he wouldn’t measure another one of mine.
Yes. I just think it adds to your trophy. I frame the certificate and hang it on the wall next to my skull mount. In my opinion it just looks cool. But thats just me.
In the process of getting mine entered. Great organization to support. I always struggled with whether or not to enter.
sticksender x 2
I enter any that will make it. It’s a small amount that all adds up to support the organization that stands up for us.
If an animal has measurement to quality for P&Y or SCI, I enter them. They are worthy of recognition, plus it provides valuable collection data on animals and entering an animal supports of the respective organization.
If it is not officially measured and entered into the book- it's not P&Y or SCI.
I think P&Y is a fine organization, but I have never entered one and likely never will. I have a few that would make the minimum cut, but I’m not interested in having my name in a book. I enjoy looking at my trophies and remembering the hunts and that’s enough for me. I realize I don’t have any “official” record book antlers and I have never referred to any of them as such.
No I entered my first 3 when I was 14&15 and thought it was cool, now I have so many that could be entered I couldn’t afford it !!!!!!
Nope, and if not entering doesn't make them a P&Y trophy then oh well.
“IMO too many people use record books to stroke their egos.”
This I find hilarious, stroking their egos for who? Nobody, (especially guys that don’t enter animals or even belong to P&Y or B&C aren’t looking at the record books getting excited about guys that are listed.
Molsonarcher is 100% correct, a 170 inch deer is 170 inch deer. The problem is I hear guys say they shot a 150 inch deer and it usually turns out to be a 135 class.
I suspect you are right, lots of supposed 150” deer end up at 135”, if measured. But, so what, if the hunter was willing to take the shot and kill that deer, he/she must be happy with it regardless of its “inches.”
I have entered 6 whitetails and one antelope. Several others I had measured were close. I do it to support p&y
I find it to be quite the opposite of "getting your ego stroked" when you have an animal officially measured. Almost without exception, the official measurement is lower than the expectation going into the process. Official measurements usually leads to disappointment by the hunter--which is unfortunate to say the least.
You want to talk about using something to "stroke an ego" just go off of any score posted on the internet that was measured the night it was shot, after a few cocktails by the campfire! That score will always recited long after the animal is truly measured :)
I enter animals and measure officially because I like the process. I like to meet bowhunters and hear their stories. I like be an advocate for The Club and I think every little bit helps bowhunting--especially in our current times.
Dale06- I couldn’t agree more, if any archer kills a deer they consider a trophy that’s good enough for me no matter the score.
Keeping score is ruining the heritage, IMO.
Thanks for the replies. Some share my opinions , while others may or may not. I have always thought a trophy is a trophy, no matter what the “official score” is. I have had a few of my bucks “officially “ scored for P&Y and still chose not to enter them. One of my original taxidermists was a official measurer before he died of cancer. He didn’t mind taking the time to score them since he was doing the mounts as well.
Grey Ghost, ruining the heritage? Perhaps you do not realize the P&Y book is a large part of the reason we have archery seasons? To this date, it's still being used to argue for the effectiveness of archery tackle in areas that don't allow it.
To the original question, I enter any animals that qualify, for many of the reasons stated by others.
In May I'll be joining the ranks as an official measurer for many of the reasons stated by Zack.
you can support the club financially by sending in a donation for any amount at any time. In fact doing so results in 100% of funds going to club as there are no expenses to offset such as recording, postage, certificates, etc.
It’s a great club ……….. don’t think you have to shoot a booker to support the organization.
I support P&Y but am not a big fan of record books.
Edit: for sure an animal that is not entered in the record book is not P&Y. And I wish a hemorrhoid upon each and every person who wastes a scorer's time by having an animal officially scored and not entering it.
Most of mine are measured and entered. G Fred signed me up for P&Y back in 1986. I've tried to support the club with membership, entries and attend conventions as I could ever since.
P&Y and B&C have been around and entering animals in the “book” for a long time! Doing nothing but promoting our hunting heritage. I don’t run into many people with entries bragging, but do see a lot of bragging all over social media and TV about animals scores. Many of which never get entered. A lot of the social media and TV bragging is hurting our heritage IMO.
I’ve never entered an animal. Simply because of my opinion. Just in my opinion there are several entries that are not legit. I have a wall full of P&Y and B&C scores. All my bucks are killed with a recurve and I know the facts of the hunt. In my opinion that’s all I care about. Everyone has an opinion.
Yes, if they qualify for P&Y or B&C. Doing so is a personal choice IMO. I've been an OM for B&C for 28yrs now and I only ask that if I measure it 'please enter it' as that is the main principle of myself being an OM and makes my volunteering worth while (measure's don't get paid to measure trophy's) not to mentions hearing the stories and seeing and handling these great animals is great to. And yes, any B&C measure can measure for P&Y.
Jaquomo, When your ready to get them measured let me know and we can make a BBQ & beers of it.
I used to be of your opinion until I took the course to become a measurer and in doing so learned a lot more about the heritage of Pope and Young club. The records program far predates when our “heritage” began to crumble. I agree so many focus too much on the final number and it leads to people that make you roll your eyes. But the records program isn’t to blame. Honestly the biggest ego strokers in hunting that I know constantly go around talking scores that were unverified and inflated/incorrect. I never understood the mindset of talking about deer in a matter of inches but then saying they aren’t entered because you don’t believe in that sort of thing. By quoting scores you implicitly do believe in records programs IMO. If you didn’t you’d use descriptions such as nice or huge or 4x4 or ten pointer.
As a measurer, I measure friends animals while sitting around having a beer for fun if they ask. But I do explain to everyone especially cold calls, if I take the time to measure it, you can fork over the $40 for entry. If you don’t want to, then you don’t want an “official” score in the first place and I’ll direct them to the website to find a score sheet and have fun measuring it themselves. Most animals are very straight forward and not difficult to find the final score. Some are extremely tricky. I find the process fun to do.
I went from never having entered anything to now being a measurer and entered 15 or so animals personally. No wrong answers and bowhunting is fun either way. Whether an animal makes the book or not shouldn’t dictate whether you shoot or enjoy the hunt looking back, but it’s fun for me as an after thought to score them and see where they fall.
I have never had a negative encounter with someone using my approach explaining that I require submitting it if it’s scored and meets the requirements. I am far too busy to score animals for pure bragging rights.
When I give a price to customers in my handyman business, I don’t tell them they have to hire me.
Nope. Nothing against the club. I don't agree that a high P&Y or B&C score represents the best animals. It's just one way to compare. I love mass and it just doesn't score as well as length. Compact, trashy bucks tend to score really well, but I am much more impressed by a big frame. It would be interesting to have a way to measure the amount of bone, like water displacement, to see how different animals would stack up that way.
"When I give a price to customers in my handyman business, I don’t tell them they have to hire me."
Do you expect your customers to pay you after you do the work they hired you for? If you did the job they hired you to do and they didn't pay you, would you work for them again?
^^ But you don’t have to pay an OM. ;)
Measurers volunteer their time for the benefit of the club. Taking their time and then not paying the fee that their time was intended to earn the club is tantamount to theft in my mind.
Sounds like the measurer suggested he would and here you are complaining about it on the internet.
Have a great evening.
Nope. Not complaining at all. OMs know what they sign up for as a VOLUNTEER measurer. Don’t accuse thievery when you’re in that position
No wonder more guys don’t enter their antlers
I liked the p&y back in the 60s and 70s it was interesting seeing what size of game was out there. But in the last 30 years it has brought out a lot of bad apples that will do anything to get there name in the books. And it makes hunting look bad now a days. To many eyes on the sport.
Yes the higher scoring ones. I do it out of curiosity of the score, to support P&Y, and because I’m too lazy to tape them myself. With the prevalence of xguns today it’s also nice to refer to mine as P&Y’s while theirs are not nor ever will be.
I have, and will continue to. I don’t have many, with any luck and some determination I’ll get a few more.
The Pope and Young Club is doing the right thing for bowhunters and it’s sad to see passionate archers dismiss the only organization in North America that truly cares about our right to bow hunt.
My friend said it best…”I enter animals and measure officially because I like the process.” - Thanks Zack, I agree.
And for the OP, Mr. Kenny Powers, the Club doesn’t accept crossbow harvests.
My experience has been that if you live in a rural area, one of the quickest ways to cause problems for yourself is to be highly successful and advertise it….. It doesn’t matter if you’re hunting or fishing. I don’t begrudge anyone that does, but I do not need record books…….but if I ever shoot something or catch something that I believe is a world record, I think I might….
Is your support of the club coincidentally limited to those good years that you get a big one to two or do you provide them financial help on the off years.
The answer to that indicates in many instances if you are doing it for the betterment of the club or for some other reason.
I do. And will continue to do so. My kids were innagural youth members and now that thier college I continue thier general membership, buy tickets for raffles, and give swag gifts to friends and family. Like Zach I love the process. I’m lucky to have an authority on scoring less than an hour from my house and visits to him are everything the pope and young club is about. The friendships I have fostered because of club involvement mean more to me than can be explained. Bottom line- support the club often and enjoy the process- Thier the only one keeping the boat afloat on the national level.
I enter all the animals that I am fortunate enough to take that would qualify. Pope and Young is out supporting us archers, the least I can do is support them by entering my animals that would qualify. I also try and donate when I can and recruit more archers to join. In this day and age with more and more antis, we need all the help we can get to preserve out sport and traditions.
A lot of good comments. I have entered many of my animals and have a few more to enter. I don’t agree with all of P&Y’s positions, but it is a great organization and I wholeheartedly support it. I, like several of the posters above , am a member of the Fred Bear society as my way of giving back to the sport I so much love. Pope & Young is the only bow specific organization fighting for our rights. If not P&Y, then who??? Every person who shoots a vertical bow should support the organization regardless of whether you want to participate in the record keeping process or not . There are a few great conservation organizations that deserve our support. P&Y is one of them. If not P&Y, then who? If not you, then who? My 2 cents.
A P and Y animal is more than scoring the minimum score. It’s taking the extra step to honor the animal and officially enter it. Until then it’s just a fine bow kill that may or may not score what you said… Gotta love the guys who say I don’t enter animals because they aren’t ego driven,as they recite the animals they have taken that may or may not score high enough…
I’d love to see how many 200” deer that get taken by YouTube or tv superstars that would actually score 180”. ( still an amazing animal) but if they had it officially measured then they can’t say it’s 200 anymore… see the pattern developing here?
P and Y / B and C are both great organizations and entering an animal helps the organizations I have no problem doing it… Carry on
I also think this post has underlying tones with more intent than just answering this question that leads back to The Wards outfitter post… MHO
"And for the OP, Mr. Kenny Powers, the Club doesn’t accept crossbow harvests." - Nice Muche
Is there a reason you put this DB comment on this thread? Exactly zero of the animals i have killed that would qualify for the P&Y Minimum were killed with a xbow. I have killed exactly 4 deer with a xbow in my life. Shot a shit ton more with a rifle, what about those? Can they be entered in P&Y? I hunt with whatever weapon I feel like taking with me during the season thats open. But FAR more animals have been taken with my compound than any other weapon I own. Anytime you would like to try a 3D course in my area , just hit me up. :) Maybe you will learn something.
I do, and have one that just finished drying, so will be seeing my scorer again soon. I've been interested in becoming an official scorer, just need to find the time.
I wrote that to fire you up, because like Shug eluded to…I can read through your initial post enough to know why you started the thread. Also, your archery skills do not scare me.
" Also, your archery skills do not scare me. "
Ha! Well maybe one day we can test that theory out.
And Kenny Powers is a living legend.
I’ve gone through phases. I went a long time not entering anything for a number of reasons and have a fairly large pile of animals that would make the minimums that have not been measured and I don’t remember when I killed them. I have been getting more critters measured over the last few years and feel it’s a good thing.
Although I have had a few ups and downs with P&Y over the years, I am more committed to it than ever and feel it is the best organization for a bowhunter in North America to be involved in.
Thanks for the replies. Some share my opinions , while others may or may not. I have always thought a trophy is a trophy, no matter what the “official score” is. I have had a few of my bucks “officially “ scored for P&Y and still chose not to enter them. One of my original taxidermists was a official measurer before he died of cancer. He didn’t mind taking the time to score them since he was doing the mounts as well.
I like the NBBC over P&Y they add up all points with no deductions. I just don’t see the point in deductions. How can animal be admired for what it has but be deducted at the same time? Stupid
"I like the NBBC over P&Y they add up all points with no deductions. I just don’t see the point in deductions. How can animal be admired for what it has but be deducted at the same time? Stupid"
I have always heard and said, "Nets are for Fish!"
They grew the bone, it should count IMO. I'll check into the NBBC and see what thats all about. I still need to enter my turkey slam as well. I have all the paperwork completed with the witnesses , but i never got around to sending to NWTF>
I enter everyone that qualifies and support the organization every way I can. Does anyone else picture KHNC as a crotchety old man stuck in a cabin with his firewood supply running low...? Ed F
Agreed spike and KHNC; EXCEPT, P&Y chose to create the scoring system they have. You're welcome to measure however you want to. But if you want to compare apples to apples, everyone needs to be clear on what # they are stating. I have a friend who killed a 180" mule deer although NOT officially measured, and NOT accounting for net. He compares it to actual P&Y typical scoring and that is not apples to apples. It's a nice deer, and don't get me wrong, I'd shoot it in a heartbeat, but in typical category it might score 165(?) which is rather "ho hum" as far as records go. And even if it truly scores 180" as NT, that's also rather "ho hum" compared to the monster NTs that have been killed.
We all want our trophy to sound bigger than it is, so very few people actually measure accurately, and then on top of that net out the deductions.
And as far as StickFlicker's comment about being asked to measure something, then the guy not bothering to enter it, I agree. If you just want a ballpark, then read the sheet and directions and measure it yourself. If you want an official measurement P&Y, volunteers invest their own time doing it, so it's the least you can do to honor their time. Also note the whole reason they are volunteers to avoid conflict of interest. If they were paid, it might sway the score a little, or overlook some deductions...
All that said, I measure my own to get a feel for the relative size and I've never entered anything in P&Y, not sure why honestly.
I have entered all mine P @ Y is a great org.
My scoring goes like this, he’s HUUUGE! He’s BIIIG! He’s NIIICE! Good one! Nice one! Congrats! For those that enter their animals then that’s their right and choice. I don’t and probably never will. If I want to give the club money then I will just do a direct monetary contribution. I have never really been in the game about scoring an animal. I used to care more when I was younger but not so much now.
Have been a measurer for 35 years, when first started no one talked about gross score they talked about what it would score P&Y. Seems the gross score talk started with all the tv hunting shows. I have taken the time to score for some I thought would enter but after they found out what it really scored they didn't enter it. They never used the true score but still bragged it scored a number I have no idea of how they got the way inflated number. Would not mind so much if they would at least used the correct gross score after I took the time for them.
I have alot of respect for scorers. They have a passion for what they do, and they volunteer their time.
I haven't read all the posts on this thread and I don't have strong feelings for or against P&Y. That being said, I know how to measure and I measure all of my animals. I know what they score and I know the score would be slightly different if officially scored and entered them. Maybe I will someday, who knows? A couple of mine have been officially scored by an official measurer without entering them. He did it while they were at the taxidermist without me asking.
In regard to using the P&Y measuring system as a reference, I don't think there's anything wrong with using the measuring system as long as you don't claim it's an official measurement. We have all kinds of measuring systems that are referred to without entering into record books. If I have a car that runs the quarter mile at 10.34 seconds at 135 mph I'm using the NHRA measuring system and just because I don't enter it into some record book doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't use the system for reference. If I weigh myself on a scale it doesn't mean I shouldn't refer to the "pound" weight measuring system without entering it into a record book. Killing animals shouldn't be a dick measuring contest whether you enter yours into a record book or not.
I have several animals that would qualify for P&Y and they are special to me. However I have numerous animals that don't qualify and they are just as special for various reasons. Maybe that's one reason I haven't cared to enter any.
So, I have a solution for people who have a problem with it. When I measure mine I'll just refer to the measurement as being on the MW system...
I don't shoot very many. I've only got three whitetails so yes, I entered them.
Never heard of KHNC before and as of now I am underwhelmed.
Thought we hunted deer , elk , moose pronghorn sheep etc to eat them . The rest is very secondary . It's nice to see magnificent animals , but putting your name to it for publication is only about ego now . It was initially created to legitimize bowhunting , we have established that . A great memory or magnificent critter , sure put it on your wall . They look nice . But names and ranking create " shit that happens" . If you think all of the entries are fair chase . You fell off a turnip truck . I know I'll get piled on for the opinion, but I hunt to eat the meat and also control predators . Will I shoot or chase a dandy , yup for awhile ,but my main goal is good meat and I don't pass on a nice shot opportunity with an empty freezer .
Thank God there are people on here to remind me of the reasons that I hunt. My memory is not so great and I get confused easily.
I would if I ever shot anything worthy!
Bluesman you are correct. The vast majority of us bowhunters eat what we kill.
As far as the ego part, you do have a very small percentage that do it for ego, but thats it.
I measure for new members and established members. NEVER have I had a hunter that I measured a trophy for come to me bragging about how many animals they have in the books or what place they rank. They are just happy to have taken that animal and have it recognized for something, that will forever be remembered and recorded. If I hadnt measured animals for most of my hunters before, I would have a hard time believing the current one was the first they ever killed they are so happy.
We all know there are bad apples in the bunch and not everything was taken legally. It is up to the hunter to tell the truth, and if they choose to lie, its on them. The clubs would have no way of knowing whether they are being truthful or not. Every hunter entering an animal fills out a fair chase affadavit. If they choose to lie, that would only speak to their character, not the records organization.
Ive heard enough stories about animals being ill gotten, and if you are aware of it being done and do nothing about it, you are just as guilty. (Not throwing shots at anyone in particular)
I enjoy the chase, the kill, the measuring, the conventions, meeting new hunters, and pretty much all that is involved with being a measurer. Ive also made new friends and hunting partners because of it.
There will come a time that these organizations are needed more than now, even though we need them now more than we think. When that time comes we will be eating vegetable based steaks and drinking milk made from “something”. That will teach us all where we went wrong and there will be no one to blame.
We could find this exact thread question from 1 to 27 years ago and they would be identical. Some do, some don’t.
i was an official measurer and regular member. saw too much cheating and poor ethics. quit the p & y club and never looked back
The P and Y club I think now should de-emphasize scores . Any hunting organization is a good thing if we keep everything in perspective. The main goal should be to keep the heritage going and helping to create and keep hunting land we all can use now and for future generations.
I have been an official measurer for B+C, P+Y and LongHunter society for close to 20 years. I would guess that less than 1/4 of the trophies I score are actually entered, and many don't make the book. I may take a little less time and care on a buck / bull that clearly doesn't make the minimum, but I am happy to score them nonetheless, and enjoy the conversations with the excited hunters. Often the most important conversation I have with these hunters is to congratulate them on their harvest, while letting them know that despite what their co-workers think, their animal is not the new record they have been led to believe.
EVERYONE that comes to have their trophy measured is excited by their harvest, and wants to know how it compares to one book or the other. There is the occasional jack**s that is extremely disappointed to find out his trophy isn't as big as he thought, or more likely, as big as his guide told him it was. But these are few and far between, and I enjoy volunteering and giving back to the hunting community.
By the way, I enter my animals that make B+C, but have never entered my own animals in P+Y or LHS. I try to encourage those that shoot a qualifying animal to enter it, but I have no heart burn if they don't.
I will enter every animal that meets the standard. When I was growing up, the Pope and Young headquarters was just a few miles from where I lived. I marveled at the animals in the museum and imagined the adventures those animals represented. To me, P&Y is just as important as the pioneering men and women who worked so hard to secure the archery seasons that we enjoy today. Entering is up the individual, but when considering your rationale for either, consider how important the club is to the sport.
Yes like to support bowhunting organizations the money goes to good cause supporting the Boy Scouts anti- movement and the rest of the hunting problems we have around
I am a member of P&Y, If the animal is above the minimum I like to enter them but that does not make it more of a trophy to me than the ones that did not make it . Every animal I have shot with my bow are trophies and great memories to me regardless of size or score of animal. How I hunted them is more important than the size or score. I only have to make myself happy with what I shoot.
I will cross that bridge when I come to it. I'm not a trophy hunter.
bluesman- the P&Y club doesn’t emphasize score now! There are much more important things to the organization and the members that belong.
No. I have several that could make book. I have nothing against the club and will probably be a member at some point. That said the book does nothing for me. It’s like having a diploma from elementary school to me. Who cares. Not knocking you if you do though.
Upper end specimens or unusual species I understand entering but being tied for 13,134 place with your nice 127 3/8ths whitetail is really a who but you cares moment. Just mail them a check and help them out.
" who but you cares moment. Just mail them a check and help them out."
Because "I" care. Doesn't bother me what others think about my entry scores. The animal qualified per P&Y Club standards and that's good enough for me. Much like the enjoyment that comes from looking at my mounts on the wall...I also enjoy seeing a P&Y certificate hanging next to the mount. I'll be honest with you, I own every P&Y record book that has been released. Most still have the plastic wrap on them...i.e. I don't even bother looking at my entries in the actual record books. I know they are in there and that's good enough for me.
For what it is worth, I do support the P&Y Club financially on an annual basis. I send contributions to the Trust Fund, Conservation Fund and lately even the General Fund. I also make contributions to the P&Y Records Program when I'm fortunate enough to arrow a P&Y qualifier. All of that on top of Regular member annual dues.
Lastly, I really like the fact that when I'm dead and gone, my name will forever be entrenched among a multitude of fellow bowhunters that supported the P&Y Club.
Grant, please re-read the first line of my second paragraph above. When I pay my annual dues, I also include contributions to the Trust Fund and Conservation Fund. I missed the 2021 convention in Reno (a Covid-19 thing)...so the money I would have spent to attend was donated to the General Fund during 2021 and 2022. I will be attending the 2023 convention in Reno in seven weeks...supporting the Club...again.
I really think it sucks that those of us supporting the P&Y Club are pressed to explain "why" on Bowsite of all places. The REAL question here should be...why the HELL are many of you bowhunters NOT supporting the largest bowhunting organization in the world??? The record books are only one facet of the Club...so using that as an excuse just doesn't hold water IMO. I see more support for crossbows on this site than the P&Y Club. How freaking SAD is that???
That's all I have to say on the matter... I'm done.
Smarba - Pope and Young did not choose to create the scoring system, they copied it from Boone and Crockett
And then there is Comptons. A couple of the founders are friends who I will break bread with tonight. I appreciate their intent, but think it's silly to add to the score of an animal based on longbow vs. recurve, ground hunting vs. Treestand, checked flannel shirt vs camo, Fedora vs stocking cap, wood arrows vs ?. Seriously, the animal's score is about the animal, and all the rest of that nonsense is nothing more than a vanity statement saying "I'm more traditional" or "I hunt better than you".
P&Y is an equal opportunity club. The animal either makes the net minimum score for the species, or not. No awarding five point bonus for wearing leather underpants when you shot it.
Bou- I get your point but the 2017 edition shows that 127 and 3/8 whitetail tied with nearly 60 others for 50,849th place. I wish there was someway to see the date and time killed instead of the name, they are including the gross score now so at least you can imagine the actual size of the animal
In average whitetail country, bow-killing a buck over the 125-inch minimum is not that easy. If it was, everyone posting above would be doing it every single year, year-after-year. There are lot of whitetails in the book , but they're a ubiquitous species with millions of people hunting them. Compare the number of bucks killed each year (hundreds of thousands?) to the number of yearly entries (hundreds?). I know I hunt prime ground in Indiana and pass on a bunch of good looking bucks every year, holding for a good one that at least makes the book, as a reasonable minimum standard. Knowledge of scoring allows me to pass on the younger ones, and be more selective than I'd be otherwise. And I don't kill one every year...far from it. I believe that's true for most bowhunters who target whitetails, and for most people posting on this thread. Few will shoot a 125+ net P&Y buck every year, because it's tough to do. I've entered several bucks in the 125-135 net typical class, some of which were quite mature. It's a crowded field in that "barely-eligible" range, but I was proud of every one!
And yes, like most, I also enjoy eating venison....so when I want some of that, I'll shoot a doe or two. Then hold out for a Poper'. What great times we live in, where I'm free to make that choice ;-)
I agree pav and with less Than 5000 members out of 3 million bowhunters in the USA alone it is sad. There a state organizations with that number I bet or close To it. Unfortunate. That’s why I. Have said support even without waiting to get a certificate back if you choose to support.
Would like to see state org. that total 5,000.
Where’s the guy who would enter if only his name were not included? I miss hearing from that guy.
Pav- you are dead on! I’m always surprised at the amount of bow hunters that not only don’t support P&Y but the number of guys that trash guys as “Ego” hungry that do. Ego hungry guys having their animals entered in a book that NOBODY ever reads?? Hilarious.
The "guys" that don't support the P&Y are a bunch of almond milk drinkers
P&Y taught me the difference between Coues deer and eastern whitetail. I’m indebted to them! :)
Charlie, good one. I think he's the same guy that would enter if they measured using water displacement, and he posted above.
Nobody cares, that's why. Entering animals into some scoring system is for chodes.
I have one P&Y animal, oddly enough I live in Illinois and it's an elk. Damnit, I guess I'm a chode. I'm not a great hunter, and my biggest deer on the wall is a whitetail that pushes 160 gross and probably nets in the upper 140s; maybe 150 at the absolute most. I don't get too concerned about the exact measurement to the 1/8", because I'm the one that measured, therefore it's unofficial anyway. Can a person that is not certified measure accurately to get a score? Absolutely. For example, I taped my P&Y elk to within 1" of the official scorer. There was more than 1" overall error (maybe a few inches), but the net result was a 1" difference. Still, that isn't official. Do I have animals that qualify for P&Y? Yes. Are they P&Y animals? No.
With regard to a 127" deer, those are not all created equally. Killing one such specimen in a number of states is a fairly substantial accomplishment. A while back, I challenged myself to kill a P&Y buck on some state property near where I live. I failed. Had I shot a 127" buck there, I would have had it proudly entered. Simple enough, that would have been a greater accomplishment than killing a deer maybe as high as 150" on managed property. Interestingly enough, I'm not so sure I didn't pass a couple bucks that were close to the 125" minimum. One such buck I recall was a nice 10 point that was a young deer, or at least that was my evaluation. I passed him for that reason, but a decently-framed 10 like he was would likely be hard-pressed to at least not be close.
Minimum for P&Y is too low. Mine just end up on the fireplace or in the barn.
I’ve entered one bull. It was the first 6 point I ever arrowed. I had another one go 321 scored by an official scorer that I never entered. It’s a Pope and Young bull.
Thornton I totally disagree with the minimums being too low.
The scores were designed for a mature animal and the average joe hunter. Not the hunter that has manicured food plots and hundreds of acres of private all to themselves or the only ones with landlocked access.
When competing against other hunters, a 125” whitetail on public ground is a very tall order in most places. Private land can almost be a guarantee every year.
I would wager that if you put 100 of the best bowhunters you know on public land here in the east, less than 10% would achieve a 125” net typical whitetail. A net 155” non typical would be less than 1%.
Given the fact that most hunters get to take a week for vacation, these are realistic odds.
I measured at 2 separate events this weekend, and measured a total of 43 deer. Exactly 1 that would qualify came from public land. I couldnt enter it because it was shot with an xbow.
The minimums are there for the masses, not the privileged.
"Never heard of KHNC before and as of now I am underwhelmed." -Keepemsharp
"I'll make you famous."-William H Bonne
Ok, this wasnt to be a popularity or beauty contest in the first place.
I have never had anything officially scored. If I do, I will enter it. That being said, I will likely only have one scored if I know it will make B&C. Still waiting on that!
P&Y was formed to catalog our ability to effectively harvest big game, even the most dangerous, with a bow and arrow, which was then used to open up bowhunting opportunities in every state and province.
Sadly, the Club was so successful, now those who do little to ensure the future of the sport are now able to say it's no longer relevant.
Our records are proof that the NA model works and works fabulously. Statistics are important and, in the end, might just be the only thing that keeps hunting legal. The records are used constantly to defend that model.
"If you aren't working to protect bowhunting, you are working to destroy it." Some guy named Fred said that.
To everyone on this sight, especially the anti P&Y guys, just what are you doing to protect bowhunting? It might be time for you to stop talking and start doing.
JSW wouldn't say I'm anti P&Y just think there's plenty of organizations I'd rather give my time and money to. I'm a member of the RMEF, NWTF, DU, WWF to name a few all doing work on the ground that I find more important then a book with names and numbers in it. Before I'm a bow hunter, rifle hunter, upland hunter, etc I'm a hunter and I find many bowhunting only organizations to limited in the scope of their involvement to interest me. I think working to put more animal's on the mountain so to speak is more important then cataloging the already dead ones.
I’m a Life Member of Pope and Young. They are the ONLY bowhunting organization left that has enough credibility and membership to have a voice for bow hunters.
I do enter qualifying animals for the record book. I do buy record books. I do not do this to see my name in print. I do it to support the only organization with a voice for bowhunting.
I’d also feel like a GIANT douche and hypocrite quoting P&Y scores to people without supporting the club.
Score not usually something I volunteer anyway.
"If you aren't working to protect bowhunting, you are working to destroy it." seems incredible judgmental of folks you have no clue about. Typical of club mentality. I don't own very much, but it is a sanctuary for wildlife and will be donated to the state for youth and disabled hunts upon my death as part of the nearby public wildlife area. In 12 years, I've only shot 4 bucks off it and allowed hundreds of other deer live. My biggest whitetail, elk, and mulie are all public land kills.
The thousands of dollars I spend in hunting licenses every year in numerous states and wildlife habitat improvement certainly counts for something.
The 125" minimum is a very young deer in the Midwest and several Eastern states and if managing for age and size should not be shot IMO.
I'm not one to join clubs.
No matter what a critter scores or who scores it....If you don't sign the "Fair Chase Affidavit" & enter the animal into the Records Program, it is NOT a Pope & Young harvest!
First off, the quote you referenced wasnt posted by me, although it really does have alot of merit to it. Considering that actual bowhunting is being replaced with crossbows in almost every state that allows them, it truly does warrant consideration and attention.
Second, I merely disagreed with your minimum score thought. To each his own regarding what animals they choose to harvest, regardless of size and age. That wasnt the point of contention.
Thornton, I get your point about the 125" minimum in Kansas. You might have a totally different view if you lived in say...Florida or Delaware. The P&Y Club is a national bowhunting organization... and I just can't imagine changing minimum scores per state?
Already posted this...but I killed an Iowa buck in 2021 that officially scored 125-7/8". He was definitely NOT a young deer. Possibly the oldest buck I've ever arrowed. He is wide with great mass...with a total gross antler score pushing 150". He just didn't have the greatest typical genetics...especially for Iowa. All I'm saying is there are a multitude of variables that define the final net score...not just "young deer".
i think about it but I have never had anything officially scored.
I dont believe anyone on this thread indicated they didnt like P&Y as a club. I feel like most are supporters. My question was merely to gather opinions about entry. As its been said, an animal scores what it scores, regardless of entry. A score is a score , a nice critter is a nice critter. No one is disrespecting or hating on P&Y by not choosing to have someone come officially score it and then pay for entry in the books. The animal can still be referred to by is "rough gross score" if one wants to do that. For Social Media, egos or otherwise. Even if its one of those tiny coues or blacktail bucks.
There is more than one way to support and "protect" bowhunting. Not being a memeber of a club does NOT mean you don't...
I haven't had animals scored. Might someday if I shoot something big enough that I want to make a big deal out of it. Otherwise hunting is a personal thing for me. My trophies are strictly by my judgement and it doesn't matter to me what they would score or what someone else thinks of them.
As far a supporting P&Y? I see no reason someone shouldn't.
Enter it or not, beauty is in the eye of the bowholder, Honestly it's a personal choice and nobody really cares one way or the other, maybe just not that into ya. But as a bowhunter... to me not supporting P&Y in some way makes about as much sense as a gun owner that votes Biden. Meaning no sense at all. Your choice in a still semi-free country. But If a person took a good animal, never entered it yet insisted on calling it a "P&Y" animal..... makes me wonder what else they may identify as.... =D
Looking back... seems pretty much every elbows out chest pounder I've ever met were beating the drum on animals never entered..... basically been big fish in tiny lil ponds. The folks I've met in P&Y, you just really don't see many egos flair up. Most tend to know how big, how flippin' yuge the pond really is.... know how lucky they are to be doing what they love and check the egos at the door. And they know how to relax, laugh and have fun.
On another note.... the Convention this year will be back in the west, Reno, April 12-15 I believe. And I plan on being there wid bells on this year. Been a long time, my last was Phoenix. It's a great group of folks and Pats beer always tastes better than any other I've ever had.... heheheheh
I entered my 150 inch 8 point whitetail, and will enter the next one that tops him.
I don't think anyone is negative about the organization , all hunting organizations that help promote hunting are a good thing. My opinion is, and again only my opinion.... I'm old school we hunt the ungulates for the great healthy meat . The score is very secondary .Will I go after a monarch if he is in my area. Sure .But I won't prioritize the antlers . If I end up with a nice animal , the last thing I care about is the score , I just like looking at it. A magnificent deer or whatever is a sight to behold but hunting started out about eating and protection from predators . I hope we keep it that way. I have some nice animals mounted but if it becomes an obsession or a contest not sure that's a good thing..... Some fellas pay a lot of money to hunt trophy size animals and don't even want the meat. THAT I don't think is the reason to hunt. Yes the meat does not get wasted, but one might ask why your hunting an animal that offers such fine table fair if you don't want to eat it ? Exception of course for predator control . I will absolutely support Pope and Young for all the reasons of enhancement of wildlife habitat and hunting. Its not the organization that is a problem , but SOME are all about scores SOME are willing to break the rules to get their name in the record book. I don't know how many times I have seen shows on TV that all they talk about is the antlers and not the meat . There are some great programs that talk about the meat and even have recipes and such. Hunting is becoming a business when it should be enjoyment, exercise and the great food . If you want the support of the nonhunting public , you set a dangerous precedent if its all about the antlers. A scoring system that ranks animals does bring out SOME that get pretty obsessed with it. I will always support Pope and Young for the reasons it started . To legitimize bowhunting and support it.
bluesman - "I will always support Pope and Young for the reasons it started."
This question is not just aimed at bluesman, as there are similar comments from others on this thread. If you are not a member of P&Y and you don't support the record book program...HOW exactly are you supporting the P&Y Club?
If you are a bowhunter...you should be a member of P&Y...whether you enter animals in the record book or not. Contrary to popular belief, having an animal in the record book is NOT a requirement to join and actually support the P&Y Club.
It’s a great question and huge opportunity. Minimum of 3.5 million bowhunters in usa and lady report was about 6000 members. 1% would be 35,000 members. To get there would be massive for the sport and club. But we need to increase current size by 6 times to get there.