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Well, Would you look at that!
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
KHNC 08-Mar-23
Pat Lefemine 08-Mar-23
Nick Muche 08-Mar-23
Matt 08-Mar-23
orionsbrother 08-Mar-23
Jeff Durnell 08-Mar-23
KHNC 08-Mar-23
Roger 08-Mar-23
KHNC 08-Mar-23
KHNC 08-Mar-23
kentuckbowhnter 08-Mar-23
Boreal 08-Mar-23
Mike B 08-Mar-23
Missouribreaks 08-Mar-23
Straight Shooter 08-Mar-23
cnelk 08-Mar-23
wytex 08-Mar-23
Bowfreak 08-Mar-23
Glunt@work 08-Mar-23
molsonarcher 08-Mar-23
Straight Shooter 08-Mar-23
Bou'bound 08-Mar-23
scentman 08-Mar-23
TREESTANDWOLF 08-Mar-23
Roger 08-Mar-23
t-roy 08-Mar-23
WhattheFOC 08-Mar-23
GFL 08-Mar-23
Woods Walker 08-Mar-23
RD in WI 08-Mar-23
Bigdog 21 08-Mar-23
Don K 08-Mar-23
Gunny 08-Mar-23
bluedog 08-Mar-23
Roger 08-Mar-23
t-roy 08-Mar-23
Roger 08-Mar-23
RK 08-Mar-23
JohnMC 08-Mar-23
Shug 08-Mar-23
RK 08-Mar-23
JohnMC 08-Mar-23
Matt 08-Mar-23
DanaC 09-Mar-23
sureshot 09-Mar-23
scentman 09-Mar-23
Missouribreaks 09-Mar-23
Missouribreaks 09-Mar-23
molsonarcher 09-Mar-23
WYelkhunter 09-Mar-23
DanaC 09-Mar-23
JohnMC 09-Mar-23
t-roy 09-Mar-23
BOWNBIRDHNTR 09-Mar-23
KHNC 09-Mar-23
rattling_junkie 09-Mar-23
Straight Shooter 09-Mar-23
Corax_latrans 09-Mar-23
Supernaut 09-Mar-23
BOWNBIRDHNTR 09-Mar-23
Michael 09-Mar-23
Corax_latrans 09-Mar-23
Bowbender 09-Mar-23
Corax_latrans 09-Mar-23
Roger 10-Mar-23
timex 10-Mar-23
shade mt 10-Mar-23
Bowbender 10-Mar-23
timex 10-Mar-23
Corax_latrans 10-Mar-23
Michael 10-Mar-23
grasshopper 10-Mar-23
bamboo 10-Mar-23
timex 10-Mar-23
Jaquomo 10-Mar-23
bamboo 10-Mar-23
Bowbender 10-Mar-23
RD in WI 10-Mar-23
scentman 10-Mar-23
Bigdog 21 10-Mar-23
MA-PAdeerslayer 10-Mar-23
Straight Shooter 10-Mar-23
WhattheFOC 10-Mar-23
Corax_latrans 10-Mar-23
timex 10-Mar-23
Bigdog 21 10-Mar-23
RD in WI 10-Mar-23
RD in WI 10-Mar-23
scentman 10-Mar-23
bamboo 10-Mar-23
Corax_latrans 11-Mar-23
Bowbender 11-Mar-23
Catscratch 11-Mar-23
DanaC 11-Mar-23
shade mt 11-Mar-23
fuzzy 11-Mar-23
Missouribreaks 11-Mar-23
Bowfreak 11-Mar-23
Supernaut 11-Mar-23
DanaC 11-Mar-23
Highlife 11-Mar-23
Rgiesey 11-Mar-23
shade mt 11-Mar-23
HUNT MAN 11-Mar-23
TMac 11-Mar-23
Catscratch 11-Mar-23
Missouribreaks 11-Mar-23
timex 11-Mar-23
Jaquomo 11-Mar-23
Bigdog 21 11-Mar-23
Corax_latrans 11-Mar-23
Straight Shooter 11-Mar-23
Straight Shooter 11-Mar-23
timex 11-Mar-23
Missouribreaks 11-Mar-23
Glunt@work 11-Mar-23
WV Mountaineer 11-Mar-23
Corax_latrans 12-Mar-23
timex 12-Mar-23
Missouribreaks 12-Mar-23
Bowbender 12-Mar-23
Straight Shooter 12-Mar-23
WV Mountaineer 12-Mar-23
fuzzy 13-Mar-23
From: KHNC
08-Mar-23
Looks like X-bow hunters have there very own exclusive club to enter bucks now. 130" minimum typical, 140" for NT. Let the haters hate I guess. I now hunt with whatever weapon I feel like taking out that day. Since im no longer part of a factory shooting team, I have the freedom to hunt any way I legally prefer. I still prefer compound , but I like the option to use whatever I decide during the season. https://www.bolt-quarrel.org/

From: Pat Lefemine
08-Mar-23
"Let the haters hate?" Why would anyone care whether crossbow hunters have their own record book? Perfectly acceptable to me. What am I missing?

From: Nick Muche
08-Mar-23
For someone that self-proclaims they don’t care about record books, you sure bring them up a lot.

From: Matt
08-Mar-23
How is the stock market working out for you?

08-Mar-23
Well….

I am waiting for the relief to wash over me…….

Meh.

From: Jeff Durnell
08-Mar-23
whatever. crossguns, schmossguns

Imo, there should be no trophy books at all. But the needy gonna need.

From: KHNC
08-Mar-23
"Let the haters hate?" Why would anyone care whether crossbow hunters have their own record book? Perfectly acceptable to me. What am I missing? -Pat

There are plenty of haters in this site especially. Lots and lots of hate on xbow use. How have you not seen that ? And this post was especially for Nick Muche. He made sure to let me know xbow kills are not recognized in p&y. Why he felt the need, IDK, but anyway. Now xbow users have somewhere to enter the books if they prefer. And Yes, I still most likely wont enter any record books for any of my kills. I thought it was interesting that P&Y offered the use of their "official scorers" for this club. I thought that was very professional of them.

From: Roger
08-Mar-23

Roger's Link
Crossbows are for girls. Even if you have no arms.

From: KHNC
08-Mar-23
How is the stock market working out for you? -Matt. Great actually. I make a living in insurance. Interest rates are very high now that the stock market took a big dive last couple years. Lots of clients moving money to annuities for safety of principal and growth. 5.65% for 5 years is pretty good vs losing a pile in market last year. I will move money back to mutual funds at some point im sure. But hey, there is whole other post for that , instead of hijacking this one.

From: KHNC
08-Mar-23
Crossbows are for girls. Even if you have no arms- Roger

Exactly the "hate" i was referring to. ^^

08-Mar-23
Next thing you know, they will have a book for crossbow hunters who are trans.

From: Boreal
08-Mar-23
I've heard they have forums just for crossbows users too....

From: Mike B
08-Mar-23
Crossbows, just like traditional or compound bows, muzzle loaders and modern firearms; they are weapons proven to be suitable for making a clean kill in the hands of a qualified user. Granted, some weapons require more skill, or practice than the others.

As hunters, there is so much more that goes into a hunt besides the weapon of choice. Planning the trip, practicing, camp, scouting and tracking. When successful, a clean kill shot is attempted, and for the prepared and fortunate...the quarry is now theirs. For the unsuccessful, there are memories made that will last a lifetime.

I am a hunter, and that's what matters. No matter the weapon, an honest hunter is welcome at my campfire anytime. It's JMHO, but I could not rationalize ending a critters life just so's I could get my name in some book. Other hunters may make different choices for their own reasons.

08-Mar-23
There should be a separate record book for shoulder fired weapons during archery seasons.

08-Mar-23
That’s great that Xbow hunters have a place to record animals if they wish to. Not sure why Nick was mentioned for giving correct info.

From: cnelk
08-Mar-23

cnelk's embedded Photo
cnelk's embedded Photo

From: wytex
08-Mar-23
Girls shoot longbows Roger, compounds are for little boys.

From: Bowfreak
08-Mar-23
Crossbows fit in perfectly with our instant gratification society.

From: Glunt@work
08-Mar-23
Crossbows are the number one thing reducing bowhunting in the US. Not surprising they are controversial on a bowhunting web site.

I hear a lot of folks with a " mind your own business" attitude about crossbows. We were minding our own business until crossbows were pushed into bow seasons. Someone else wasn't happy hunting with what was legal.

From: molsonarcher
08-Mar-23
Old news. This was mentioned somewhere on here last year about Bolt and Quarrel club.

I met one of the higher ups last year at our sportsmans expo. Seemed like a real nice guy, and he was very interested in getting the youth involved.

They are having the same struggles as most of the other clubs with garnering interest and growing. IMO any organization doing something for the hunting world is better than nothing.

Will they succeed? Only time will tell.

08-Mar-23
That’s great that Xbow hunters have a place to record animals if they wish to. Not sure why Nick was mentioned for giving correct info.

From: Bou'bound
08-Mar-23
“Since im no longer part of a factory shooting team, I have the freedom to hunt any way I legally prefer.”

WOW. you are in for a new world of hunting for pure joy and what pleases you and not being beholden to someone else’s demands for what you carry

I am happy for you.

From: scentman
08-Mar-23
What would "Fred" say about this issue? Pat, for what it's worth, I applaude your stance on this topic.

08-Mar-23
I would be willing to bet, that a major percentage of us don't care if you hunt with a pea shooter, or blowgun. If it makes you happy, have at it, nothing wrong with that honestly.

Ditto Pat

From: Roger
08-Mar-23

Roger's embedded Photo
Roger's embedded Photo
Roger's embedded Photo
Roger's embedded Photo
All in good fun. For the record, I shoot a little boys bow. :)

From: t-roy
08-Mar-23
Are Coues deer eligible for inclusion, too?….

From: WhattheFOC
08-Mar-23
LGBTQCB ??

From: GFL
08-Mar-23
5% is good??

From: Woods Walker
08-Mar-23
MikeB X2! Well stated!

From: RD in WI
08-Mar-23
NAVEL-GAZING: self-indulgent or excessive contemplation of oneself or a single issue, at the expense of a wider view. Most people on this site don't care what you use. The owner of this site allows all opinions - until one cries wolf and claims that the others on the site hate them. Now, you are wearing the equipment you use like it is The Red Badge of Courage. Find a mirror.

From: Bigdog 21
08-Mar-23
Rodger you seem to have a lot of those fun pic. ???

From: Don K
08-Mar-23
Seems there is more "hate" other than crossbows brought up

From: Gunny
08-Mar-23
I counted to ten, but still going to post.

I got started bowhunting later than most so this year will be my 30th year bowhunting. I've only used compound bows and have been pretty successful by my standards.

I don't use a crossbow, but my girlfriend and granddaughter do.

After years of reading all this crap on this site bashing the cross-bow hunter, makes me want to hunt with one then go to the local bar and tell them I did. See how many of you so called "real" hunters would say shit to me about it. All you guys hiding behind your handles on a web site safe behind your computer screen wouldn't say shit until I left. If you did then we would have to find out who was tougher. I may not be, but we'd sure as hell find out.

Hunt with what you want as long as it's legal. I hate internet bullies, or bullies in general.

Guess I should have counted to 20. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this. Don't give a shit. Yes, I should have just passed on by this post, oh well, it is what it is.

From: bluedog
08-Mar-23
You're welcome at my fire anytime Gunny. Like your attitude.

From: Roger
08-Mar-23

Roger's embedded Photo
Roger's embedded Photo
Roger's embedded Photo
Roger's embedded Photo
Bigdog, haha sure do...

From: t-roy
08-Mar-23
Maybe try 30 next time…

From: Roger
08-Mar-23
hey guys it's not that deep...there's no hatred goin on here, just poking fun and making jokes

From: RK
08-Mar-23
Gunny. Calm down

You hate bullies but you are ready to kick everybody's ass That is classic

Should have counted to 100

Blue dog welcoming you into his camp is awesome and should be what you take away from this. Class guy that blue dog is. Feel honored

From: JohnMC
08-Mar-23
I have heard hunting with a crossbow is like masturbation, it might be fun to do but I would not brag about it on bowsite.

From: Shug
08-Mar-23

Shug's embedded Photo
Shug's embedded Photo

From: RK
08-Mar-23
JohnMC. Where do you brag about it.??

From: JohnMC
08-Mar-23
A DNC convention

From: Matt
08-Mar-23
Roger, even if you didn't mean it - sometimes the truth hurts.

From: DanaC
09-Mar-23
Well, at least they're not lobbying to get their trophies listed in P&Y.

From: sureshot
09-Mar-23
It appears that everyone agrees now that crossgun kills aren't archery kills.....just when I thought all hope was lost!

From: scentman
09-Mar-23
Well I'm going out on a "rim" here and say I have eaten venison that was killed by both compound, and crossbow... could not tell the difference in either one ;0)

09-Mar-23
Shoulder fired weapons such as crossbows and guns are alternatives to those who do not wish to bowhunt. I prefer to be a bowhunter during archery seasons. As far as separate record books and weapon specific websites, that makes absolute perfect sense to me.

09-Mar-23
Well, who are the shoulder fired scoped crossbow pioneers?

From: molsonarcher
09-Mar-23
I could be wrong, and most likely am, but I believe PSE created the first one, or was first to market the crossbow.

From: WYelkhunter
09-Mar-23
who cares if they have their own record book they should. I just don't think they should be used during archery season. If you think learning to shoot and becoming proficient with a cross bow is any harder than a gun you are lying to your self. It might be a little harder to hunt with because you don't have the range of a gun but it is way easier to hunt with than even a compound bow so don't bring that argument.

From: DanaC
09-Mar-23
"I’m still trying to think of two pioneer crossbow hunters for a name for the club but a google search rendered a bunch of movie characters. "

William Tell?

From: JohnMC
09-Mar-23
I think Bill Busbice would be great as one of the names on the club. Really it could be Busbice and Busbice. The other being his son.

The B&B Club

From: t-roy
09-Mar-23
They could even give out an award for the most egregious game violation each year, in honor of ol Big Bill…..Maybe call it the “Icky” Award, or something like that. The winner would receive a 55gallon drum of jet black hair coloring.

From: BOWNBIRDHNTR
09-Mar-23
John MC and T-roy posts for the win! "And this year's winner of the B&B Icky award goes to.....LMFAO!!

From: KHNC
09-Mar-23
"I do remember somewhere in one of your post about being a legend."-Rocky D

You have never seen a post from me regarding myself as a legend. And you wont.

09-Mar-23
Those memes are awesome!

09-Mar-23
X3- The Busbice crew would be the perfect representation for the Xbow community.

09-Mar-23
“We were minding our own business AND BITCHING ABOUT STICKBOW SHOOTERS WHO THOUGHT THAT COMPOUNDS HAD TAKEN THE TECHNOLOGY TOO FAR until crossbows were pushed into bow seasons. Someone else wasn't happy hunting with what was legal.”

There. Fixed that for you….

JMO, if you shoot a compound for any reason other than a physical handicap/infirmity, you’re on pretty shaky ground complaining about crossbows.

Gotta love marketing that says it’s not about the weapon… and then promotes 100-yard reach….

From: Supernaut
09-Mar-23
A long bow, recurve or a compound are bows. They are held vertical and drawn in the presence of game.

A cross gun is not a bow and they don't belong in bow season, pretty simple concept in my opinion. Cross guns are in bow season here in PA and that's that. I doesn't mean I have to like it, agree with it or condone it. I think it blows.

I also realize that my opinion only matters to me and that's cool too.

From: BOWNBIRDHNTR
09-Mar-23
Your opinion matters to me Supernaut....100% agree. I have ZERO issues with someone using a crossgun, just don't try to say it's just like shooting a bow or belongs in Archery Season. Maybe I'm a wimp but I just don't think I can hold my bow at full draw from the time I leave the truck until I get back. Maybe I need more time in the gym?

From: Michael
09-Mar-23
Finally a step in the direction of crossbows are not archery hunting.

When it comes to crossbows in the archery season it boils down to land and tag availability to me.

On private land and OTC tags I don’t care if they are during archery seasons. The waters get muddied on public land and tags that need to be drawn.

09-Mar-23
“On private land and OTC tags I don’t care if they are during archery seasons. The waters get muddied on public land and tags that need to be drawn.”

Yup. Where the harvest total is not keeping up with the reproductive output of the herd, cross guns are a straight up gift from the gods. On public land, or anywhere where it’s more important to control the number of hunters than the size of the herd, they are absolutely the work of the devil.

But I feel the same way about compounds. Before releases were legal and before laser rangefinders, there was no such thing as overpressured archery seasons or point creep.

From: Bowbender
09-Mar-23
"Before releases were legal and before laser rangefinders, there was no such thing as overpressured archery seasons or point creep."

Releases have been legal since Christ was a corporal. Range finders been around for at least 25 years. Got my first one in ~2001. Wanna blame pressure in OTC and point creep on something... look no further than social media. YT, IG, FB, and yeah Bowsite and Rokslide to name a few...

09-Mar-23
When I started bowhunting, mechanical releases were NOT legal in all 50 states. Nor were tree-stands, for that matter… But back then, I recall a National bowhunting magazine ran a “what would you do” ethics article about a hypothetical hunting buddy who was illegally using a release… so it wasn’t that uncommon for them to be prohibited…

And if the optical rangefinders we had in the ‘80s were just as good as laser-rangefinders that automatically compensate for shot angle, why are they no longer on the market? I used to use an optical rangefinder all day long, every damn day on my field site, and it was a piece o’ crap.

Now, we have laser rangefinders integrated into the sights so that all you have to do is put the red dot where you want to hit and not punch the trigger too hard.

That’s a long ways from shooting barebow with fingers.

From: Roger
10-Mar-23
So what should we do Corax? Allow .30-06 into archery season? Since we've already relaxed the rules too much, we should just relax them all the way? What's the point of your post? I'm being sincere.

If you're saying to ban compounds and rangefinders from archery season, I'm with you. If you're saying crossbows are the same as compounds, then you've lost me. If compounds were the same as crossbows, then crossbowers would just use compounds and there'd be no debate.

From: timex
10-Mar-23
I've killed some respectable bucks in my lifetime. Beyond the inside spread measurement, I haven't a clue what any would score. Just never interested me.

I bow hunt compound now but trad bows for many years, muzzleloader & rifle as well. I honestly could care less what another person chooses to hunt with.

Perhaps if your stuck hunting public land near a major city and the woods are overrun with Xbow hunters I could understand. Myself personally have never been & never will be in that situation.

The real hunt these days is not with a weapon, it's the hunt to obtain quality land to hunt on, you find this, and what others use on other property doesn't matter or at least that's how I feel about it.

From: shade mt
10-Mar-23
wasn't there a time when P&Y would not accept an entry from a compound over 65% let off?...I might be wrong about that?

Point is i heard this same stuff when compounds came on the scene. Guys called them sissy bows, and everything else.

Anyway...compounds, longbows, recurves, whatever...i'm glad we got the choice, but unless your older, or physically handicapped that you can't draw a bow, It would have been best to keep crossbows out of archery season, so much....We are our own worst enemies sometimes...but whatever...you make your own choice.

But truthfully a modern compound with sights, 80% letoff, mechanical release etc...is a pretty good stretch from a recurve or longbow.....not really to much in common, other than you draw it.....a crossbow kinda just gets even farther away from what we originally started out with....BOW....and ARCHER......."BOWHUNTING".....

But hey whatever.....main thing is...get out there and enjoy yourself, and don't worry so much about the next guy.....There is a BIG difference between having an opinion, being firm in what you believe and stand for....and having an opinion you try and jam down everyone else's throats, all the time.....or FORCE to accept.....( kinda like the queers, and trans try to do) Frankly my bow season isn't effected to much by allowing crossbows, i spent a lot of time in a treestand, on the ground and stillhunting..with a longbow, and recurve.....nobody said i couldn't...nobody forced me to use a crossbow.....And....we are eating deer meat...life's pretty darn good.

From: Bowbender
10-Mar-23
Corax,

I remember that story. Pretty sure it was in the same rag John Sloan had a column in. Still don’t see the relevance to over crowding in OTC and point creep. You can thank the BRO crowd, THP, OnX, all the “how to beat the odds to draw your tag”, social media “smash that like button and follow” etc… for that. If you wanna blame range finders and treestands, have at it.

From: timex
10-Mar-23
Corax..... Not picking on ya brother, but I remember a post you made as GF many years ago on the lw. Went something like this, you were hunting with a compound & pins, you miss judged the yardage, hit the deer high the next shot completely missed or hit the deer in the foot finally the 3rd or 4th arrow dispatched the animal, and this was the beginning & end of your compound, pins,range finder days.

Me & you have also gone round & round about long range rifles & range finders verses woods rifles.

You seem to have a serious dislike for rangefinders. I use them but absolutely not dependent on them. Basically beyond 30yd with a compound, beyond 150yd with a muzzleloader & beyond 300yd with a rifle.

In 40+ years of bow hunting I've killed 2 deer at 50 yds and maybe 10 at 40 yds. Easily 75% of the deer I've killed with a bow have been inside of 25 yards, no range finder required. The furthest deer killed with a rifle last season was 350yds. Again no range finder required with the 6.5x284

Not sure why a range finder is such a thorn in your side but speaking for myself personally their just not that important, but yes there's usually one in my pocket when I'm hunting. Just not that important, I'll absolutely go back to the truck if I forget my binoculars, probably not for the range finder.

10-Mar-23
Yes, I killed one deer with a compound; the shot was well under 10 yards - probably not even 5 - at a steep, downward angle, and the placement was high by a couple inches but still lethal. But you don’t ever know exactly what you’ve got until the deer is down for the count and I didn’t have the option of coming back the next day, so I took the follow-ups I was offered. One of them was a lousy hit that went exactly where my attention was in the instant that I loosed the shot - she picked up a leg; it was moving; it got my attention and I hit where I was looking. Not proud of that, but not gonna lie about it. The final shot was immediately decisive; she lurched forward and fell on her nose. No rangefinder required.

That experience and some shooting on the 3D course made abundantly it clear to me that inside of ranges where a rangefinder becomes necessary in order to tap into the potential accuracy of peep & pins, I am simply more effective without sights. For me, that’s between about 20 and as far as I’m willing to shoot at a live target. And as just a matter of personal philosophy, if I am not close enough to take the shot without some artificial gadget telling me what to do, then I’m not close enough. If I weren’t willing to bet my tag on my ability to get within my technologically-unassisted bow range, I’d do the sensible thing and use a firearm.

But go ahead - take a poll among western state compound shooters and ask whether they own a laser rangefinder and whether they’d feel naked without it.

From: Michael
10-Mar-23
In my early days (35 years ago) of bowhunting the number one reason I missed was lack of knowing the range or poor range estimation.

Back then I shot a 10, 20 and 30 yard pin. Now days my top pin is set at 30 yards.

Now days I have a pretty good grasp at what is 30 yards or less. However I still take my rangefinder with every time I head out hunting.

From: grasshopper
10-Mar-23

grasshopper's embedded Photo
grasshopper's embedded Photo
I had an archery elk & deer tag (no crossbows allowed), and a rifle cow tag. Last two years, I actually shot cows off my deck with a 7mm mag. They taste the same.

If your hunting in the rifle season with a crossbow, I'm all for it. If you take my archery tag, I'll object but I've got no hate for ya.

From: bamboo
10-Mar-23
I half to ask why do so many care how someone else hunts? and why are you worried about the score . this is not suppose to be competition. if you think it is you should really learn what hunting is about. food and controlling population.

From: timex
10-Mar-23
Bamboo....... Agreed 100%....... I'm a meat hunter & fisherman. A freezer full of fish & venison is my objective every season. Which rod,reel,or weapon used really doesn't matter much to me. Cane poles to giant bluefin rods & reels, bows, muzzleloader, rifle. I love it all

From: Jaquomo
10-Mar-23
Bamboo, for the thousandth time, here in the West the two huge problems with crossbows are them taking limited tags from bowhunters, adding to point creep, and adding to crowding on public land during archery that is already a big problem.

If someone wants to hunt with one during rifle season and take limited tags from rifle hunters, by all means, go for it.

From: bamboo
10-Mar-23
Jaquomo most hunting with x bow crossed over from compound, so I would think the number of Archery tags will stay close to the same, and as being crowded ,, putting them in gun season would be more crowded.

From: Bowbender
10-Mar-23
“Jaquomo most hunting with x bow crossed over from compound, so I would think the number of Archery tags will stay close to the same, and as being crowded ,, putting them in gun season would be more crowded.“

Yeah, if only that were true in PA. We’ve added approximately 125K “bowhunters” since the damn things were made legal in 2009.

From: RD in WI
10-Mar-23
My mom was born in August of 1935 in Germany. Last year, she was struggling with polymyalgia. I asked her if she wanted to go to a crossbow. She answered, "I'm not a cripple". Even my mom, who is not politically active, knows that hunting with a crossbow was designed for handicapped people - not able-bodied men and women. That is why so many people look askance at able-bodied people using a weapon like a crossbow, and who seemingly have no qualms about using such an effective weapons for the same length of time as common archery equipment. Then the archers are deemed bullies. What a logic set.

From: scentman
10-Mar-23
RD, that's amazing! Can you share some pic's of your 88 yr old mom drawing back a vertical bow? I want to show my 78 yr old mother in law who wants to hunt with me this year.

From: Bigdog 21
10-Mar-23
Crossbows we're used in the 15th century for hunting.

10-Mar-23
I’m not out west, so the points don’t necessarily affect me but I’m 100% in Lou’s camp. Crossbow users should not be able to take away from the limited archery opportunity’s for the rest of the crowd. Unless it is medically necessary. But even then, I know here in MA that doctors were just filling out paperwork just because they were asked too… so with that said, use em in rifle, muzzy, shotgun, straight wall, whatever season you want. But leave archery, archery.

10-Mar-23
“ Jaquomo most hunting with x bow crossed over from compound”. Not even close to the truth. It’s very much the opposite.

From: WhattheFOC
10-Mar-23
Xbow hunters came from compound?? Don’t think so. They’re the rifle hunters way to barge in to archery season. Change my mind.

10-Mar-23
Rangefinders are a problem for the same reason that crossbows are a problem- they extend the practical effective hunting range of what was supposed to be a close-range weapon. Thereby increasing participation in what was supposed to be a low-impact season.

If if weren’t for compounds, there would be much lighter participation in archery seasons, and rangefinders just add to the problem.

Before releases were legal everywhere (I’m not aware of any exceptions), people shot maybe 50% let-off with fingers, and there was no problem with overcrowding.

The concerns that compounders have now with crossbows are exactly the same concerns that single-string shooters have had - in growing abundance- with compounds as the have gotten faster, easier to use, and ever more technologically enabled.

Timex - you say that you don’t care what you hunt with. That’s fair. It’s also entirely fair to say that people who don’t care what they hunt with are NOT the people for whom archery seasons were carved out in the first place. The fact that you’ve been allowed to join in is an undeserved privilege made possible by a calamitous superabundance of deer throughout most of the country, but In The Beginning, at least where I’m from, Archery season was a privilege paid for at the cost of your rifle season tag. So you had to have the cojones to bet your One annual tag on your ability to get it done with a bow, or go home happy just for having tried, and for having had some solitude in the process.

The idea was always that this season would be self-limiting terms of participation, with negligible impact on the herds’ health, numbers, or availability to the rifle hunters who are still footing the bill for the whole proposition.

That’s no longer the case.

From: timex
10-Mar-23
Corax....... That's humorous. When I started deer hunting in VA in the late 70s. There was a bow, muzzleloader (non inline) and rifle season. $7.50 for the license & 7.50 for big game tags which included 1 bear, 2 turkeys, 2 buck tags,1doe tag only good the last 12 days of the season. It didn't matter bow muzzleloader or rifle with the tags. As the years passed more liberal doe tags came then eventually a separate license for bow & muzzleloader along with allowed inline muzzleloader.

Bow hunting for me is the month of October in the woods, muzzleloader is the first 2 weeks of Nov in the woods then rifle till the 1st sat in Jan.

Are you trying to imply that because I gun hunt during gun season that I don't deserve to be able to bow hunt during bow season.

That's some pretty twisted logic.

I'm not unsympathetic about folks limited to public land. Or the limited tag situations out west. It's just simply not the case where I live & hunt in VA. X bows and range finders are not the problem, trophy hunting is the problem. Nobody cares about a freezer full of venison anymore, all their interested in is that hero shot with a big buck on fb.

From: Bigdog 21
10-Mar-23
Timex so true.

From: RD in WI
10-Mar-23

RD in WI's embedded Photo
RD in WI's embedded Photo
this is from a video

From: RD in WI
10-Mar-23
I keep trying to get her to shorten the length of her release head and bring the peep closer to her eye. Funny how parents don't listen to their children.

From: scentman
10-Mar-23
RD's mom for the win! That is "the best pic" I have seen on Bowsite... I'm speechless, and that doesn't happen often.

From: bamboo
10-Mar-23
cool pic , I guess you never outgrow the training wheels.

11-Mar-23
“Are you trying to imply that because I gun hunt during gun season that I don't deserve to be able to bow hunt during bow season.

That's some pretty twisted logic.”

No, that’s called making choices, and in some parts of the country, that’s just The Deal.

Pick.

One.

One tag. One weapon. One season. Per. Year.

Just because your reality is different where you are doesn’t invalidate the reality of those of us who have lived elsewhere.

I honestly don’t give a rip what people want to use to cull off a critically overpopulated deer herd - IN PLACES where the deer ARE. Just keep the damn crossbows out of areas with critical overpopulations of hunters so that the Public hunters can maybe get out of bow range of each other for a day. And if it takes further restrictions on equipment to bring hunter density into balance with what the resource can sustain, then I’d support that, too.

From: Bowbender
11-Mar-23
So you’re saying folks picked up a bow because range finders and releases were made popular or legal? I have never, ever, never ever heard someone say, now that rangefinders and releases are legal I think I’ll bow hunt. I have seen, by a magnitude, a number of folks start bowhunting because xbows were made legal.

So according to you there’s no distinction between a hand held hand drawn vertical bow with the archer using a release or a shoulder mounted weapon, pulled tight in, fingers wrapped around a pistol grip to keep it tight against, forearm on a steady rest or clamped in a tripod, iluminated magnified optics, flip the safety off, and squeeze that trigger. Now the ads are pushing 150 yard shots. With a disclaimer not that you would take a shot that far, but it’s nice to know you can.

You harp on releases and RFs but make no mention of the influencers that have glorified western backpack hunting. The advent of mapping apps like OnX and Gaia, sites like this one Rokslide, MM, YouTubers, IG, influencers pimping it out for likes and shares have done far more, exponentially, to increase crowding and point creep, than a release and RF.

From: Catscratch
11-Mar-23
When KS managed the deer herd instead of the dollar it was a 1 tag, 1 season, 1 buck system. I wish they would go back to it.

Releases have made the effective range of the bow way to far to justify the length of modern archery seasons. One simple rule change would fix every problem with long range weapons in archery season (including the crossbow)... no mechanical releases.

From: DanaC
11-Mar-23
The difference is in 'skill sets'. Archery and rifle shooting are two very different things. And you can practice for shooting the crossbow with a 22 rifle. Not so the bow, however configured.

From: shade mt
11-Mar-23
pulled into a state forest parking lot one morning before daylight, and wasn't long another truck pulled in while i was getting my stuff together.

Guy walks over to me an older guy maybe in his 70's....asked were i was hunting because he didn't want to mess my spot up..i thought that was polite of him...i told him, and pulled my longbow out of the truck....he looked at it then commented, "i used to hunt with a bow, but i got bad shoulders and can't pull one back anymore, so i use a crossbow now"...

He almost seemed apologetic.......i wished him well, and good luck, and headed out...I had an hr hike to my stand, hunted all morning and like usual didn't see another person...when i got out shortly after noon, he was gone and my truck was the only one left in the parking lot...

nobody ruined my hunt....the fact that he used a crossbow didn't effect me one bit, and he had no need to feel apologetic to me.

Sometimes i think the whole world has turned into a bunch of chubby, bawl babies, all caught up in the gloom and doom, thinking the world owes them, and all wanting to throw a tantrum when they don't get their way.....

Not much, ..."when the going gets tough...the tough get going anymore" "he took MY tag"...."he shot MY buck"....A CROSSBOW HUNTER!!.....aw poo poo... that's a tough break yes for anybody.....suck it up, go try harder for another one.

You think crossbows are not bowhunting?...so do i ...its a crossbow, not a bow, but then again...a compound isn't exactly a bow either....if we really want to be honest, a bow is a recurve or longbow...not a bunch cables and wheels....we just give it the label...kinda re-defined the term "bow".....well now...isn't that a common practice these days... "redefining"

I got far more serious stuff to worry about than crossbows, FAR more serious.

Lots of good people use crossbows.....but this world is full of not so good people, and i'm far more concerned about that, than what they hunt with....

A good man with a crossbow?....... Or a foul,queer promoting, tansgender confused, baby killer, with a longbow?.....I'll bet i don't have to tell you which one i'd prefer in my hunting camp..

From: fuzzy
11-Mar-23
Good for them.

11-Mar-23
I prefer bow and arrow hunting.

From: Bowfreak
11-Mar-23
It makes total sense to allow crossbow hunters to hunt in archery seasons if you believe that shotgun, muzzle loader and rifle hunters should be hunting in that season too.

Also…arguing that rangefinders have the same impact is ridiculous. Rangefinders do not increase a persons’ accuracy they simply tell you the distance to the target. If your maximum effective range is 40 yards, you can range targets all you like at 60 and 70 yards and it will do nothing to help your shooting it will only tell you how far it was when you missed.

From: Supernaut
11-Mar-23
RD's pic of his mom is outstanding!

Thanks for sharing it with us.

From: DanaC
11-Mar-23
" Rangefinders do not increase a persons’ accuracy they simply tell you the distance to the target."

ASA has both unknown and known distance (rangefinder) classes. I'm pretty sure that, shooting the same rig, they push you back one stake (4-5 yards) if you're using a RF. Not sure if this 'proves' anything...

From: Highlife
11-Mar-23
Dead on Shade. I'm so sick of the get off my lawn crumbogens. If I'm legally hunting it's none of your business old man.

From: Rgiesey
11-Mar-23
Lou is exactly right! Crossbows aren’t bows and I believe they are a Problem

From: shade mt
11-Mar-23
I kinda just fall into the whatever trips your trigger i guess.

We kind of look down on people that use crossbows, but don't us traditional bowhunters kinda do the same thing?sometimes? toward compound shooters?...easier, longer range etc..? And it isn't just the "quick and easy" crowd that are totally at fault....There is money to be made, and crossbow manufactures are more than willing to promote crossbows in archery.......so we opened the door years ago.....way back.....easier, faster, more accurate = better......and here we are. doubt they are going away, and the world is a whole lot bigger than me...so?....rather than look down on em...i got a new longbow i just glued up, think i'll just go work at it...

maybe life aint so bad after all...

From: HUNT MAN
11-Mar-23
Have I told you guys about the chipmunk I killed with me bare hands?

From: TMac
11-Mar-23
The world is always changing and you will always have the chicken littles amongst us. You need to put on your big boy pants show up and make the most out of your life and stop worrying about what others are doing or hunting with or hunting in “YOUR” season. Grow up it’s none of your damn business. What you used to have has changed suck it up buttercup. Be grateful for what you have! Hunt pics please…..lol

From: Catscratch
11-Mar-23
Na, don't want to hurt bow hunter numbers... but if everyone is going to bitch n moan about crossbows because they are to easy to learn or have to much range then might as well take care of that problem with one sweeping rule change that gets rid all the cheats that reduce practice time. Equipment isn't the problem anyway. Leasing is BY FAR the biggest deterrent to hunters where I live. People will learn to shoot whatever they have to, but most will take the easiest route offered. Take away hunting land and what's the point? Anyone claiming to want to increase hunter recruitment should be finding a way to eliminate leasing, or at least let kids hunt their leases for free. But then again, that would infringe on "my deer" attitude. Lots of people talk the talk but few walk it.

11-Mar-23
Could just have one season, use whatever weapon you prefer. Seems we are headed in that direction.

From: timex
11-Mar-23
In these modern times the ,,,REAL,,,hunt doesn't involve a bow,gun, rangefinder or whatever. The real hunt is in obtaining permission on land that you can hunt how you choose.

From: Jaquomo
11-Mar-23
"In these modern times the ,,,REAL,,,hunt doesn't involve a bow,gun, rangefinder or whatever. The real hunt is in obtaining permission on land that you can hunt how you choose."

Nope, not in the West. Out here the "real" hunt is in drawing a limited tag. Colorado has 23 million acres of public land to hunt. The competition for archery tags just among BOWHUNTERS is totally out of hand. Now throw in 20,000 former rifle hunters who switch to crossbows, and the problem is amplified exponentially. And CO is an either-or-state, so no, you can't hunt with a rifle if you hunt with a bow, and vice versa.

Some of you guys in the East might want to take a step back and look at what others have to deal with.

From: Bigdog 21
11-Mar-23
Ya we had a invasion about 50years ago and it never stopped just got worse. What hunters have most of the land leased , what hunters complain of crowding . So what weapon has created most the problems today.

11-Mar-23
Never happenin’ Jaq - if it’s not a problem for them, personally, right where they are, then it cannot POSSIBLY be an actual problem for anyone else, anywhere.

Same attitude as people who don’t live with lions or wolves or bears… or droughts.

The whole “plenty for everybody” thing only works where there’s plenty for everybody…

11-Mar-23
Lou- you’re totally right, guys back east that never hunt in the west don’t understand how there are millions of acres open to the public. Getting the limited tag IS the biggest hurdle in hunting a specific animal. Back east getting a deer tag is as easy as adding it to your cart at checkout (with few exceptions).

Bamboo saying MOST x bow hunters ARE compound bow crossovers is nuts! I agree with Lou, most x bow hunters are rifle hunters applying for tags with better odds to draw than rifle.

11-Mar-23
Lou- you’re totally right, guys back east that never hunt in the west don’t understand how there are millions of acres open to the public. Getting the limited tag IS the biggest hurdle in hunting a specific animal. Back east getting a deer tag is as easy as adding it to your cart at checkout (with few exceptions).

Bamboo saying MOST x bow hunters ARE compound bow crossovers is nuts! I agree with Lou, most x bow hunters are rifle hunters applying for tags with better odds to draw than rifle.

From: timex
11-Mar-23
Lou... I somewhat understand. When I was young friends of mine went to co, bought otc tags and elk, Muley & pronghorn hunted public land. I always wanted to go just couldn't justify the expense combined with the time off work. I was young self employed with family responsibilities that came before pleasure. In my older years I'm completely content living on the VA coast, killing all the whitetails I want and doing my big game hunting offshore in the ocean on my boat.

11-Mar-23
I live and hunt in the East. And yes, many gun hunters are now in the archery season, but I can assure you a large percentage of shoulder fired scoped and cocked users were former bow and arrow hunters. Many have laid down their compounds for shoulder fired weapons. And youth, not even close. The vast majority begin with the shoulder fired, vice held, scoped and cocked, long ranged modern crossbow. Most will never become bowhunters.

From: Glunt@work
11-Mar-23
That can't be true. In the 90's, when I worked in the archery industry, the crossbow inclusion advocates assured everyone that they would be the best recruiting tool ever to get people to transition into bows?

11-Mar-23
“ Have I told you guys about the chipmunk I killed with me bare hands?”

Hunt, after you share that I’ll share a story of how I ran down a big gobbler and broke his neck with my bare hands. Instead of shooting him. :^)

12-Mar-23
“ I always wanted to go just couldn't justify the expense combined with the time off work. “

Yep. A lot of people are in that boat… and a completely UNsurprising number of them weigh their odds of FILLING A TAG very carefully before committing to one weapon or another.

And you can ask yourself - how much better do you think YOUR odds are on an Elk trip WITH a laser rangefinder and a release than if you had to hold 50% let-off with your fingers and guesstimate your range unassisted.

I think it’s pretty safe to say that “most” compound shooters will say that NO “Serious Elk Hunter” would even CONSIDER making a trip out west without a rangefinder, because DUHHH… Probably not many who would recommend a bow with a top speed under 270 fps, either, never mind that that’s about 50% higher than a very fast stickbow….

And here you are, apparently never having made even a single trip out west, but you are quite confident that you understand the situation better than the natives…. because…. you live in a state 2000+ miles away which is completely overrun with Whitetails….

CO is looking at ending OTC Elk tags for Archery and they’ve apparently already ended NR cow-only tags, making a trip out west that much less affordable for those of us who don’t value bone over meat. All that it would take to get bowhunter numbers back down to low-impact would be to ban mechanical releases. Banning electronic rangefinders would be another helpful measure. Take it back to where the whole proposition of bowhunting is just no longer appealing except to a relative few.

From: timex
12-Mar-23
Corax.......you seam to have developed a hard on for me.

It was the late 80s early 90s when my buddies were going west elk hunting. They had invested a lot in top of the line camping gear water purification and compact cooking stuff. They would pack in a couple days hike to get away from what they called the day hunters.

I met some of these guys shooting indoors at the 4h center in Front Royal VA. The majority of them shot in the bowhunter division, that's fingers,pins,short stabilizer.

Back in those days Lazer range finders were star wars type stuff. There was the bring the two images together type that were junk.

Most of us shot mid 40s" ata round wheel bows, myself personally was shooting a 44" Hoyt chuck Addams super slam bow, I shot fingers 3 under which lowered my pins so much I could only have 3 pins, I shot 80 lbs 28" 2317 shafts feathers, with zwickey Eskimos and long aluminum screw in adapter so roughly 160 grain heads.

Feet per second ? Maybe 220 -240 with 20, 30, 40, yard pins & no range finder. That bow was super quiet and I killed a bunch of deer with it.

Yes times have changed but back when I had the opportunity to go west big game hunting mine & my buddies equipment was definitely old school by today's standards.

Your ongoing _________about Range finders is _________. Get over it dude.

12-Mar-23
Mainly in the west, many compound shooters take very capable shots at 50 yards, and well beyond. At these distances range finders are helpful, especially in open country.

I shoot stickbows with the " instinctive method ", whatever that means. Therefore my shots are close, within 25 yards. Range finders are not for me. Range finders are a valuable tool for those who prefer longer range weapons, generally with distance dependent sights. I have zero issue with their use.

From: Bowbender
12-Mar-23
JHC Corex,

You’re actually blaming RFs and releases for point creep, over crowding, and the possible end of OTC licenses. Phuc dude you must have some serious hamstrings to jump to that conclusion. Or blinded by your own prejudices.

The exponential increase in crowding, point creep, etc.. is in direct correlation to the increase influencers, YouTubers pimping their channels for likes and shares. They are the ones that popularized backpack hunting and whored it out to the masses. Even to the point of advertising units, trailheads, etc….

And again, I’ve never, ever heard or knew of someone, even forty years ago, the took up bowhunting because releases were made legal.

12-Mar-23
Bowbender- don’t let him get under your skin, he’s obviously a troll. No way he believes what he’s saying.

12-Mar-23
I use a rangefinder with trad bows too. I thought the idea was to be proficient with the weapon you choose. Not handicap yourself when shooting something. I reckon not everyone agrees.

GF has spent a decade on this sight blasting everyone that doesn’t do trad bows. Or, confess they are the greatest. When was the last time you actually killed something GF? Do you even hunt anymore?

From: fuzzy
13-Mar-23
Justin you need to hear the story of the Kodiak Blacktail I bludgeoned to death with my bear defense shotgun.

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