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Can someone explain Deeded acreage
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
Beendare 11-Jul-23
Bigdog 21 11-Jul-23
Bigdog 21 11-Jul-23
Bigdog 21 11-Jul-23
Bigdog 21 11-Jul-23
Missouribreaks 11-Jul-23
JohnMC 11-Jul-23
JTreeman 11-Jul-23
Lawdog 11-Jul-23
HDE 11-Jul-23
Shiras42 11-Jul-23
GFL 11-Jul-23
Michael 11-Jul-23
Matt 11-Jul-23
BlacktailBob 11-Jul-23
Beendare 11-Jul-23
Darrell 11-Jul-23
Aspen Ghost 11-Jul-23
Stringcheesehead 11-Jul-23
Murph 11-Jul-23
Pop-r 11-Jul-23
JTreeman 11-Jul-23
Murph 11-Jul-23
Murph 11-Jul-23
Pop-r 11-Jul-23
WYelkhunter 12-Jul-23
Beendare 12-Jul-23
Pop-r 12-Jul-23
Stringcheesehead 12-Jul-23
Aspen Ghost 12-Jul-23
Beendare 13-Jul-23
Deertick 13-Jul-23
GFL 13-Jul-23
Beendare 14-Jul-23
Franzen 15-Jul-23
bowonly 01-Jan-24
From: Beendare
11-Jul-23
Can someone familiar with Deeded acreage please explain the ins and outs of this?

A typical sale with these will list 188 acres of owned land and forest service deeded acreage of 2,000 acres- calling it a 2,188 acre ranch for sale.

Does this public deeded acreage mean you can keep everyone off of it- no trespassing? Is there typically a fee per acre per year to keep this in place?

What are the advantages/disadvantages of these deeded chunks of ground?

From: Bigdog 21
11-Jul-23
Landlocked with a deeded way in across other owned property possibly limited access. The 188 will not be land locked but not connect to the 2000.?

From: Bigdog 21
11-Jul-23
And could be gov. leasing the land.

From: Bigdog 21
11-Jul-23
Are someone with a lease to it.

From: Bigdog 21
11-Jul-23
You would become a landlord. If leased check and see how long lease is . And what it's leased for. And what kinda ins. Will be needed most likely your coast

11-Jul-23
Deeded generally means privately owned. Forest Service and BLM lands are commonly leased for grazing etc, but open to the public for hunting and some other forms of recreation.

From: JohnMC
11-Jul-23
Just a guess but I read that as 2000 acres are deeded to the forest services. That the buyer likely get some long-term lease to.

From: JTreeman
11-Jul-23
So basically nobody has a clue is what this thread has said to me so far.

So I’ll make an ass out of myself as well. the way I understand that is you own the 188, and the Forrest service (or blm or whatever) owns the 2k. You have a long term lease (of some kind) on that 2k. Now what kind of restrictions/limitation/fees are entailed on the 2k I have no idea.

I bet the realtor listing the property can shed some light on this. Where is The Saint right about now, I guarantee he knows….

—Jim

From: Lawdog
11-Jul-23

Lawdog's Link
This may help you. If you're considering this, you'll need better public land experts than most of us Bowsiters.

From: HDE
11-Jul-23
Deeded is what you would pay property taxes on. It's what you could put up for collateral for a bank loan. You cannot pledge a lease as collateral...

From: Shiras42
11-Jul-23
Beendare, I think you might have the wording off a little, but I am not an expert either.

"A typical sale with these will list 188 acres of owned land and forest service deeded acreage of 2,000 acres- calling it a 2,188 acre ranch for sale."

I think the wording is usually "188 acres of deeded and 2000 acres of Forrest Service lease - calling it a 2,188 acre ranch for sale."

So you would be buying the 188 acres and the right to continue the lease on the 2000 acres. What the rights are with the lease would probably vary.

Here is a listing from NM. "Welcome to Caballo Blanco, a ranch that spans across a total of 15,021 acres, located in New Mexico's highly-coveted Mimbres Valley. The ranch is composed of 3,776 deeded acres, 4,634 BLM lease acres, 6,141 New Mexico State lease acres, and 480 uncontrolled acres."

From: GFL
11-Jul-23

GFL's embedded Photo
GFL's embedded Photo
Typical listing….only 600 acres of deeded land. The rest is in a lease.

From: Michael
11-Jul-23
From a cattleman stand point I understand the listing. Ranchers need access to so many acres of grass per head of beef.

The price of grazing/pasture land sure has jumped up these days. I remember when we my dad and I were looking at buying some pasture land for hunting it was $1700 an acre. That was in 2009.

From: Matt
11-Jul-23
"A typical sale with these will list 188 acres of owned land and forest service deeded acreage of 2,000 acres- calling it a 2,188 acre ranch for sale."

As others have stated, I think your terminology is off. The 188 would be deeded private land that you would own, but the rest would likely be leased from a government agency so not deeded to the purchaser.

You would need to look at the public lease to see what it permits/limits, but I very highly doubt the lease would give the lessee the ability to restrict public access. My best guess is all that it would do is give the lessee the ability to run cattle on that property for the life of the lease. With that, you could keep other people from grazing the land.

If you think of it from the perspective of someone who grazes cattle, such a purchase would give them perpetual access to graze the 188 and a lease which allows them to graze the 2,000 leased acres for the life of the lease. That may or may not give the lessee a leg up when the lease expires and needs to be renewed.

From: BlacktailBob
11-Jul-23
I dont think deeded is a legal term. When you buy land it is conveyed on deed of some sort. Best would be a warranty deed, seller is warranting title in the property.

Land you control, subject to a lease, gives you a leasehold interest in the land. Your interest would have value if the lease rate is less than market. The underlying land owner retaines the leased fee-estate. Deeded, to my knowledge, is slang for land you would own a fee-simple interst in. I could be wrong on that, but I dont think so.

From: Beendare
11-Jul-23
Yeah, Ok I worded it wrong.

Many of these listing lead with the total acreage, which is a bit deceiving, including leased land like this listing; 4,480 acre Elk Meadows Ranch Located in coveted New Mexico Big Game Unit 12, the +/- 3200 deeded acres combined with +/- 1280 additional acres of state of New Mexico grazing lease (total +/- 4480 acres with 5 water wells) Receiving 3 mature bull elk tags, 2 either sex archery tags, 2 cow rifle tags for the 2023 season!

I’m still curious, what exactly can you do with the leased land? Can you keep people off…or is it just your right to graze livestock on?

From: Darrell
11-Jul-23
Again it depends on the entity and the lease. Most of the time, it just means you can use it for your cattle but the land itself remains public. However, many of these "leases" have private land that land locks the leased area. It may be public, but the public would have to hike or come in via horseback a long, long ways due to you and/or other private land holders blocking access with private land and private roads.

From: Aspen Ghost
11-Jul-23
The lease is generally only for grazing rights. All other rights belong to the owner (the government). You cannot keep the public off if there is a legal way for the public to get to it and if the government does not prohibit access.

11-Jul-23
Just to clarify on the terminology the lease rights are deeded to the property which you hold title too. Smaller scale example is homes near lakes but not waterfront often were developed with a deeded lake access easement without the need for any type of HOA. If seriously interested in a property like this, a real estate attorney or title search company is pretty cheap to help interpret actual interests conveyed with a piece of real property.

From: Murph
11-Jul-23
Several good points here, the USFS lease or BLM permit goes with the sale these are grandfathered and can be sold as the leases get them for a song from the government for grazing they do allow public access as many said unless no access is accessible hence why some private sales that have deeded ground that land lock it are so valuable it’s better then owning it essentially cuz you can do whatever you want on it and no one else can legally access hence corner crossing lawsuits etc

From: Pop-r
11-Jul-23
Just to clarify...the public land lease is usually set up by a certain # of pairs or head of cattle. They can't just run what they want although they do and it severely damages the land! I see where in MT a ranch will win an award for being a grass steward of their own property while they're raping mine and yours across the fence. I can verify what I'm saying. The government bozos that oversee it are too heavily pressured from the top to keep their mouth shut or else as these ranchers are very powerful people and corporations led by some of the wealthiest in the U.S.

From: JTreeman
11-Jul-23
There we go, I think stringcheese knows what he is talking about. The lease is tied to the deed of the property you are purchasing (188 acres in this example). Not to the individual who owns the property. You are buying the lease with the 188 acres.

And I agree with other posters above, you are almost certainly only buying grazing rights. You can not in most cases block public use for hunting/recreation.

—Jim

From: Murph
11-Jul-23
It’s a shame the corporations that you speak of I seen it first hand in sc Wyoming last fall it’s fu$&@$/ Hollywood down their amazing the money, however their are a lot of good old boy ranchers that still utilize these government grazing permits and greatly need it for their way of life as it was intended

From: Murph
11-Jul-23
Another point to mention from a cattleman POV is most of the land permitted for grazing is piss poor at best it takes 15-30 acres depending to run a single cow calf pair which makes it understandable why the lease is cheap not to mention since public access is allowed you get to deal with the idiots of the world that open gates and don’t close them leave trash open fires all the BS you would prohibit if you owned it but you don’t !!!

From: Pop-r
11-Jul-23
I'm all for them when theyre done in accordnce with what keeps the land like you would yours or how you should yours. Believe me when I tell you it goes beyond most people's thoughts. They will run their land til right before hunting season they'll move them onto the public and elk and cattle don't jive. Not that they don't both use the same places at times but cattle will push elk out of an area in a hurry! We're talking thousands of pairs in these herds that seriously damage the land and water resources.

From: WYelkhunter
12-Jul-23
All you would be buying is a the 188 acres of private land and a federal land grazing permit for the 2000 acres of forest that is tied to that deeded land. you have no other rights than a grazing permit with it. yes you have to pay a yearly fee for the grazing permit. how much it is just depends how it was set up. It might seem we are getting to graze cattle cheap but there are lots of other things that go into it. On federal land leases you have to pay for the water(tanks, reservoirs, etc}, fencing, fencing labor, any maintenance on all of this, and any improvements that you don't have to pay for when leasing private grazing land. I would gladly pay more for a federal land lease if I didn't have to pay for all of that and deal with people cutting fences and leaving gates open.

From: Beendare
12-Jul-23
Ok thanks guys especially string cheese and Murph, that makes sense.

I didn’t word my initial post well…it should have asked;

How can some of these listings claim so much acreage when deeded is only a small portion?

I can see where some of those leases tied to the property ARE very valuable.

From: Pop-r
12-Jul-23
WYelkhunter, we all do the same things on our private leases. Maintenance on fences is never done by the landowner. If you want a tank you pay for it. Most of these government leases the land and government are taken advantage of.

12-Jul-23
The added value for the leases is generally based on the sublease rates you can get from ranchers which are far and above more than the federal lease rates you pay. With the right property and price there is potential to have positive cash flow on a purchase. Probably more difficult at current interest rates and prices right now however.

From: Aspen Ghost
12-Jul-23

Aspen Ghost's Link
Obtaining the grazing lease is all about owning base property. See attached USFS info.

From: Beendare
13-Jul-23
Aspen, that was informative. It seems to me, some of this listings are misleading. They insinuate that this leased public ground is yours and yours alone as they include it in the title.

According to that FS doc- its only for a year…or in some cases 10 years. Are they auto renew?

I get it, buyer beware. I am just casually looking at these listings, nothing serious yet….and I suppose nobody wants to let the cat out of the bag on the sweetheart deal they have with these leases.

From: Deertick
13-Jul-23

Deertick's embedded Photo
Deertick's embedded Photo
What about those spots on maps with a bold, black line of USFS boundary, but the green shading doesn't go all the way to the line?

From: GFL
13-Jul-23

GFL's embedded Photo
GFL's embedded Photo
I elk hunt public ground every year with grazing rights. Elk eat what cows eat. It amazes me the lack of hunters there.

From: Beendare
14-Jul-23
Thanks to all that have contributed on and off line…..I knew there was way more to these ranch listings than meets the eye and some of your PMs have illustrated the need to completely research mineral rights, water rights, these lease rights etc.

From: Franzen
15-Jul-23
Deertick, it is hard to tell with that little snippet, but that is likely a proclamation boundary. White would be private.

From: bowonly
01-Jan-24
Just a little nit picking here. The term "leased" implies more legal rights. The term is routinely used when talking about grazing PERMITs on Federal lands like US Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management lands. I'm guessing the adjacent US Forest Service lands have a grazing PERMIT which conveys fewer legal rights to the holder. To be overly simplistic, leasing implies more control over land use. A permit allows a type of use.

It's semantics, but it's an important distinction especially to public lands users. Like when a grazing permittee tries to bluff a bow hunter off Federal lands by claiming it is his "lease".

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