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Until the CPWolf Department gets their head out their ass and realign things, you guys can have it.

I can draw LE tags every year - they might not be ES tags but at least I won’t be competing with the throngs of NonRes bugling their damn head off with bad bugling (when the elk aren’t bugling) and Stomping thru the woods with no care about wind.

Keep buying your tags for the yearly archery elk ‘Shit Show’. I won’t be.

We can rearrange things but every place there is one less hunter, another place has one more. Plus all the rifle and other users aside from bowhunting also in the woods at the same time doesn't change.

I would like less pressure but most solutions that have a chance go down a path of me having to sit out with no tag at some point. As a resident, with our current elk numbers, that's not acceptable.

I usually hunt an easy to draw elk unit lately. Just as much pressure as my OTC spots and not as "easy" to draw as it was.

Matt

The army of NR OTC archery elk hunters has to stop at some point. It's out of hand.

Going all limited draw won't help either as the CPW will still give way too many tags per unit. It's time for Resident Only OTC and Draw for NR's. Enough's enough.

As a non-resident, I agree that something has to be done. The residents should be the only ones for OTC. Even if I could only hunt every 3 or 4 years, that's better than what it's been like with hunters everywhere (especially the past 3 years).

After this year, my hunting partner said this was his last year. He refuses to get sucked into the point game. Most likely I'm done as well. I've got 4 points in WY, hopefully I draw next year - then I'm done as well.

That said - don't see it changing much in the near future, it's all about the almighty dollar.

The only brightside to the new alien wolf populations is that they should help push the herds off the sewed up private to where the public land hunters get a chance .

Says who?

Been reading your posts on this forum for 15+ years. You can do better than that.

See cnelk’s 4th post. Not enough wisdom to post without 5+ plus years of experience. Give me a break.

If 100k non-hunters (or whitetail only guys) watch an elk hunting video and even 1% of them end up going on an elk hunt because of it, that’s 1,000 more hunters in the woods because of 1 video. Amplify that across the mass amount of hunting content out there, and those hunting influencers are doing some damage. Even just 10-15 years ago, the barrier to entry to have a hunting show was big enough that most folks didn’t try. Nowadays, with zero barrier to entry, everybody wants to have their own sexy hunting show and they think going out west to film is the way to do it.

I’m curious as to what would happen to hunter numbers if no one could post their hunting content online. No trophy pics, no videos, no trace of it on social media? I bet the dent would be more than most people realize.

Unless you’ve archery elk hunted ‘’COLORADO OTC PUBLIC LAND”consecutively for the past 5,10,15,20+ years you have absolutely no effin idea. And hardly have enough wisdom to comment

With more wolves on the way it’s only going to get worse. Hopefully sone day it will get better. I doubt any of us will see it though.

10-4.

stringgunner, See cnelk's last post. You must have skimmed over the "Colorado otc public land" part.

I feel bad for the residents of Colorado who've had to watch the decline of their once great elk hunting state. I'm not mad that more people want to hunt elk. I love elk hunting so much I want others to experience the thrills I have. I'm willing to step back and wait a year or two for others to have their turn at a quality hunt. As it is now, I don't want anything to do with the current otc shit show that Colorado has turned into.

The basis of my overall point was simply cnelk and many on bowsite for 15+ years have been teaching, mentoring, and helping to raise up the next generation of successful hunters, the comment about not having enough wisdom to comment isn’t helping or mentoring those endeavoring to learn.

They can pay for it and learn just like I did. By getting out there and scouting, losing sleep, and driving many miles over rough roads, cutting trees, etc.

I do wish them luck tho. They are gonna need it.

Success rates are not dramatically increasing, but the same few hunters continue to kill elk regardless. The experience is less enjoyable but perhaps the increase in hunter numbers will keep the opportunities open (voting numbers and advocates) for future generations.

Wishing there were solutions that would accomplish both less crowding and opportunities for everyone.

Maybe states with OTC tags for residents and non residents need to make their archery seasons into 1 week intervals with 4 options, divide the masses into 4, 1 week options. But then….we would bitch about having only 7 days to hunt rather than 30.

Somebody posted a topic.

I've heard that nonsense for years, but have never seen any proof of it. Colorado doesn't have mandatory kill reporting on elk. So how could anyone possibly know who consistently kills elk or not? Even the estimated 10% success rate for CO archery elk hunters is a joke. Again, without mandatory reporting that statistic is just a wild-ass guess.

Obviously, it also depends on where a hunter has access to. I killed bulls 10 out of 12 years on OTC public land, but it was landlocked by private and we had permission to trespass. My success wasn't because I'm a great elk hunter, it was purely because we had exclusive access to a great non-pressured area with plenty of elk. I hated to lose that spot.

Matt

Bravo on the trophy fee thing. I can see the optics on that one settling right into the mix.

Just suck it up and pay more. That’s the way it works for more exclusive involvement with anything that you pay to play. Resident Colorado hunters are no different.

Your comment might have weight if WV was a destination state for big game hunters. It's not. All our CO residents are asking for is some semblence of balance and perhaps preference shown to residents, as it should be. They've seen their state over run in the last 10 years, something a WV resident knows ZERO about.

Would this be Gross score or net? B&C or P&Y official scoring? What about Buckmasters or SCI? I have been told the score means nothing unless its official and entered in record book. Otherwise its NOT a record book scoring animal. So , would there be a mandatory requirement to enter in record book somewhere? Also, what about 60 day drying period? Hunter would be overcharged for an incorrect score if not , correct? As you can , charging a fee by score is a stupid idea. No thanks. Plus, no OTC public land bulls in CO are over 300 anyway. :)

Mule deer were the golden goose into the 80's. Elk replaced them. It allowed outsized budgets. Hunters and mother nature are what do the bulk of managing Colorado's wildlife. CPWs roll could be accomplished with a much smaller budget.

IMO, the only way to improve the elk hunting in Colorado is to limit tags in all units, just like they do with deer. Give residents 75-80% of the tags, and charge them more. As a native of Colorado, I've always thought our resident elk tags are ridiculously cheap. I mean $62 for residents versus $760 for NR? I'd gladly pay $250 for a tag, if it resulted in 25% fewer non-residents and a better quality hunt.

Matt

The only thing I have zero reasoning with is the idea that nonresidents need controlled. Yet, someone besides residents is supposed to pay for the revenue gap created by doing so.

Huh, on a LE hunt that took 12 points? I'm gonna slowly raise the brown BS flag on this one.

I stopped hunting elk in CO as a NR years ago. I saw the BS coming from a distance. As for me, I live in a high demand state slammed by NR deer hunters. High lease prices, corn piles and very expensive NR tags. My state jacked the license costs a few years ago for NR's. Seemed to help a little but not much. Having the longest deer season in the country will do that.

Another time had a bull responding to my bugle, then hung-up and watched him run away. Just then a trash hunter walked right up behind me and called me a "F----R" for not being a real bull.

Matt

The first is that I want resident hunting to be accessible. The costs for a family to get tags, gear, gas and time off can already be restrictive.

The second is that in my experience, pay higher government fees in hopes of better opportunity, service or results rarely works out.

Third is the amount of restriction actually required to see a substantial improvement. A unit like 61 has 95% less hunters than the OTC unit next to it that's basically the same size. At even 1/2 that amount of reduction, it means a lot of September's with no tag.

There has to be a limit in all units for everyone. Grey Ghost has it right, 75% for residents 25% for non residents and resident prices have to go up considerably. Id be fine with coming out every few years instead of every year at this point.

Frankly when you dream all year about it and you take the time off work and away from family, and then just have a bad experience, it's not a whole lot of fun anymore. It will be hard for me to go back. I won't say never, because sure enough there will come a year where I have nothing drawn or planned, and I'll end up out there and be disappointed again. . . .

I don't know the solution, and it's really not any of my business as I'm not a resident. I'll just take my money somewhere else that provides a better hunt/experience. I'm sure that will mean hunting a lot less, but I'm okay with that. I'd rather do fewer hunts and have better experiences than lots of crappy hunts :)

I wonder if what we are experiencing is hunters hunting for longer periods during the season so while there might not be more total hunters maybe there are more "hunter-days"?

Look at all the stats

OTC archery non res hunters have almost doubled since 2002.

That is probably the issue that everyone has.

Government budgeting is no doubt the problem. But, never has government recognized it. Let alone do anything to fix it. So, it’s safe to say the revenue isn’t going to decrease.

So, that leaves the residents to cover the gap. Sucks but, that’s the way it works. Regardless of some people insisting that non residents need to cover the tab.

If they put a 25% limit on nr archery participation, the tag would cost almost $3000 if resident fees don’t increase. Yeah, I see guys lining up around the corner to pay that, then a $1000 trophy fee to get the privilege of sharing the Colorado elk woods with people like Peco.

The problem is easy to fix. U til you get guts with zero reasoning complaining they are entitled to cheap elk tags. That’s the problem. And, the very reason Colorado went towards recruiting so many non resident elk hunters.

I don’t live there. But, I’ve been there 5 times elk hunting. I plan on going back. I have zero problems with a limited draw. And, would prefer it over the open gates. But, I’m not paying $3000 to do it. Nor is anyone else.

Mountaineer, I realize that Wyoming and Colorado are 2 different situations but are related in that they are 2 of the options available out of a handful of options for all the NR hunters wanting to hunt elk and that all the states with elk hunting available are competing between themselves for NR dollars because they are addicted to NR revenue to run their game and fish agencies. Not a dig against them but just the reality of how the system has evolved because the demand has exponentially expanded beyond the supply in the last couple of decades.

I can still remember the time when I could apply in WY and get elk, deer, and antelope tags in WY all in one season before the point system was conceived of

I’ve experienced the same thing on the whitetail side with Missouri, and don’t even attempt hunting public land much anymore. We only pay $20ish for an archery tag that gives us two bucks (one early, one late season). Nonresident tags are OTC and $250ish, and if you go to north Missouri on opening weekend of rifle, well over 50% of the trucks you see are out of state plates. They love it because they can get a deer lease and can hunt Missouri deer every year for $250. They make door knocking for land impossible, why would a farmer let me hunt if he can get out of state doctors to pay him $5,000 for hunting rights? I am STRONGLY, STRONGLY against trophy fees - it makes no sense to punish folks financially for being successful, but I would happily pay $100 for my archery tags as a resident if it meant that they would limit NRs to a tag every 3 or 4 years like Iowa. It would open up vast amounts of prior leases to door knocking and would decrease pressure tremendously on public land.

Unfortunately, MDC is greedy and care about hunt numbers instead of hunt quality. But if me paying more for my tags meant that it would be a substantially better hunt in multiple ways - absolutely I would do so

"resident prices have to go up considerably" NO, wrong answer. What if instead, nonresident tags go up considerably. If you are fine coming every few years, pay up. You hunt at home for cheap, we want the same.

I would have no problem paying a lot more to hunt my home state. Its cheap for NR to hunt here as well. Both of those need to go up considerably.

You want fewer NR, then you have to pay up to make up the difference.

Good for you and your kids. Job well done. I get the crowding, but this thread reads as a bunch of old spoiled guys acting like their shitty elk hunt is the norm in all OTC units because that can’t ride around in their 76 Chevy with the un cased 06 at the ready as they crack their next beer. Heck the OP has a favorite saying “go deep boys go deep” well, now he had a shitty hunt. What does he expect? You can only publicize stuff for so long on the WWW and now he’s complains about being overrun? You don’t see the irony in that? If not, I guess there is no point.

You don’t know what you don’t know.

Just spent 16 days around residents from AZ in a very limited draw unit, and they were saying the same thing. And truthfully while I was grateful for the experience and chance to hunt there. I was at times blown away at the number of people, side by sides everywhere, and bugling non stop. Had several hunts and areas blown by other hunters. And by hikers and people out party camping raising hell. So do we kick all of those people out too or just the ones buying a hunting license? Not to mention the two or three spotters/scouters for every hunter that was there. In the end yes I did kill a bull but the hunt was not what I was expecting.

Point is this is the new elk hunting get in or get out your choice. It is very possible nothing will ever be done to solve this problem.

And any proposed solution that gets carried out could likely affect both residents and non residents negatively.

I've lived in CO for decades through a lot of changes. I fear the cure far more than the ailment.

Dr CPW likes to cut off a finger to cure a hang nail.

AND. As opposed to all the other threads where everyone is in agreement.

I don’t have the long history in Colorado as you do, but I’ve hunted OTC every year but 1 since 2001. Don’t tell me what I do and don’t know. Face it you had a shitty hunt and now it’s take your toys and go home and kick and scream.

Next year you’ll go into the same spot, the same bugle blowers will have thinned out, you’ll kill an elk on day 2 barely any hunters seen a great OTC hunt. Again, I don’t know shit, but I have 20+ years in the trenches of otc hunting and don’t know anything different but how the units change year to year.

My PPs in Colo and Wyo are in place so I don’t have to archery hunt elk OTC in Colo. So no, I won’t be in an OTC area for the foreseeable future. And I thank god for that.

There’s been a steady decline in Colo in otc for several years. Sure, success can be had, but it ain’t what it was and the juice ain’t worth the squeeze.

Just read all the posts above that reinforce how Colo archery elk otc has sucked.

I spent 9 days with my son with his LE elk tag a couple weeks ago. Holy hell. What a difference a quality elk hunt can make. Seeing elk every day, playing with bugling bulls every day, not having hunter pressure. What a concept.

So you and others just go ahead and keep on doing the otc elk thing. You still don’t know what you don’t know.

6000 x 1000 = 6,000,000.

That’s still 9 million short of just nonresident revenue.

9,000,000/20,000= $450.

Orion’s Example has residents paying $450 more just to cover that 9 million.

I didn’t look at the link. I have no argument that nonresident fees shouldn’t be higher. I have no argument that residents should get priority concerning hunter numbers. 80/20 sounds about right. The only reason I keep responding to this thread was your ridiculous assertion that nonresidents could pay the bills so you can hunt cheaper than a night of family bowling.

Colorado surely did whore out the elk hunting. Colorado couldn’t care less about how that has affected you as a resident either. They care about revenue.

With 30,000 people traveling to Colorado to hunt, spending 10 times more for a tag then a resident, spending much more on hotels, food, etc… then residents, you’ve got a big hole if you take any of it away. Much less 80% of it. Somebodies gotta fill it. Because nonresidents aren’t going to pay thousands and thousands in just tag costs so you can hunt cheap.

It is true, though, that OTC elk hunting in CO is a shitshow.

I love hunting elk, but it took me one lucky-draw LE tag to realize how stupid most elk hunting is. The animals (bulls) are slaughtered which causes a ridiculous bill:cow ratio, pushes the elk to private/inaccessible land, and results in a ridiculous age structure where a mature bull is a rarity.

It’s not natural and it’s a poor facade of what hunting should be.

I haven’t hunted elk in years now, as I won’t even hunt a WY general tag anymore, as it’s just one step up from the CO shitshow.

I haven’t had the success in AK the past several years that I had hunting elk, but at least I know that all I have to do is get away from roads/aTV trails and I can at least be alone and the animals are acting like they always have instead of the cattle that lower 48 OTC big game have become.

You make some good points but a lot of the what you are saying is wrong and you are barking up the wrong tree to a few of these guys. CO could do away with a lot of the NR tags and still be fine with their budget. You claim to know what budget the CPW needs?

I’m not trying to do anything but put sense in it. If you want a change, you gotta have a resolution that works besides just in theory.

Here’s the flip side of that coin. You suggest I’m wrong. What is their budget. You and a few others seem to imply you know it because you e all said they can get by on less nr tags. Which I agree. Where I differ is suggesting the legislature is going to change something without a plan to be revenue neutral.

Regardless of the back and forth, I don’t believe that and neither does anyone else. Except the handful of fellas on thread that keep insisting there are ways to do this without a huge hike in resident fees. Do tell. I keep hearing it but, I haven t seen the first example that even meets third grade math levels yet from you guys. Fire away. I love learning things. I’m not being a wise guy either.

I think wv mountaineer is right about one thing....

The state gets 15,000,000 just in license sales from nonresident archery hunters. Anyone who thinks a politician or bureaucrat is gonna give that up without finding a way to suck it out of someone else is living in never never land.

Im no accountant, but ran some numbers. To get 15 million with an 80% nonresident reduction you are talking $4k. For an otc tag.

I would be happy to pay more for a higher quality less crowded hunt. But not that much more.....

What I will offer is very similar to what Boggs described, only in Ohio.

Our NR fees are stupid cheap, private access, for the most part is pay to play, and public is overcrowded with NR hunters. I drove past one of the public areas I used to hunt last year. Its a fair size(for Ohio) piece of ground. I counted 14 different states license plates. Most of those had multiple hunters in them. This was archery season. Firearms season is much worse. This problem exists just about everywhere.

Until the NR hunters are put on a quota, or are required a wait period, or are charged enough that they decide it isnt worth the trip ever year, this problem doesnt go away. That goes for all species, and states.

Revenues have to be made up somewhere, no matter how it shakes out. I would be willing, and do, pay more for a quality hunting experience, than what an OTC hunt provides. As NR hunters, for the most part, we all pay more when we travel to hunt other states. That is to be expected. I also believe, and would totally support it here, even though it wont happen, with paying a good deal more for my own tags at home. Would it help? I seriously doubt it. Guys willing to write the checks will continue to do so in order to continue to hunt.

Ask enough hunters in enough states, and most will tell you the DNR or G&F does a sihtty job in all of them. It really is just about the money to them. Unfortunately, we all just have to deal with it, and when we stop dealing with it, the outcome will be much worse than what we have now.

Concerning your example, I asked and received. Great response and thanks for the lesson.

Now, take it to CPW. If it’s possible as you say, I’d think it’d be criminal to not enact it. Good luck and keep me updated. I rooting for you.

I've archery hunted elk in CO three times, with his year being the first in an OTC unit. I didn't get drawn to a limited entry unit in any state this year, so I opted to try OTC in CO to get out in the woods. Elk hunting is my passion, and I have been at it for 30-ish years.

I had a good time in the woods, but I didn't need to buy an elk tag to do that. I could have just gone out camping. I would rather go camping in a limited entry elk unit so at least I can hear and see elk. I spent 10-days in the OTC unit and did not see a single elk, I got away from hunters, and only saw 4-muzzleloader deer hunters one rainy day out in the woods. I may have heard one elk bugle back one morning, but then again it may have been another hunter. It was too far across canyon to be sure and the winds made it hard to locate the source. I should add that we rarely bugled (locator) if at all. The guy I was with saw a cow and spike come up behind on one set up, and that was the extent of our elk sightings.

I did see CO plates but like me most of the hunters were NR's. All the guys I talked to were having a similar experience to mine. Just the shear number of hunters in the woods, quads, side-by-sides, and vehicles on the roads at all hours of the day and night was something I have rarely seen on my elk hunts.

I archery hunted in CO's unit 40 several years ago, and it was similar, but even with the mtn bikers, runners, horse riders, and road traffic I was able to see and get into elk because there were few guys actually hunting.

CO needs to implement 100% draw archery elk hunting just like they do their deer hunting. That will solve a couple of problems in time, 1) force folks to use their points if they want to hunt elk in CO (more on this below), and 2) manage hunter densities.

1) I know that you can get your second choice without using points, and build points over time, but if you want to hunt there will come a time when it will be difficult to get your second choice. Eventually, guys will have to chose between burning points and hunting, or not burning points and not hunting. Now, you can get a point and hunt, albeit some pretty piss poor hunting in the OTC. There will not be that option if all units are draw units.

2) The stats provided show the demand for OTC archery hunts doubled in 20-years. Not just NRs but residents doubled too. That kind of increase is not sustainable, and CPW knows it (or they should). They will have to get religion on managing the number of hunters in each unit for several reasons. 1) hunter experience will degrade and this will create an hunter pressure to change things. 2) with wolves being introduced into several of the OTC areas, CPW will have to manage hunter numbers to decrease the interaction between humans and wolves as well as do a better job managing the elk populations in these units and one way is to convert the OTC units to draw units. 3) converting OTC units to draw units piecemeal, will just make the problem worse in the remaining OTC units. therefore, CPW should convert all OTC units to draw units at the same time. Take the medicine and move on. The initial drop in number of tags sold will be made up for in time (fee increases most likely). The demand for tags appears to be inelastic, and there is pricing power, unfortunately I am part of that problem. I just want to elk hunt.

The wheels of governmental change get stuck and if enough folks start sending letters, emails, and attending meetings the changes will come faster. Personally, I do not advocate for decreasing NR quotas, but that will probably be the result of trying to fix these problems. Until next season...

A solution that results in less revenue may not be a possibility but that is due to politics, not due to that revenue being necessary.

"I did see CO plates but like me most of the hunters were NR's."

This is what everyone is saying. Too many nonresidents. Didn't draw a tag, fuck it we will just go to Colorado. Yet, someone keeps saying nonresidents are not the problem with nonresident crowding and the ONLY solution is for residents to pay up, hugely. LMAO

I remember when you posted about shooting a cow and then a bull a short while later right on public land. I thought that was quite the accomplishment. My brother and I cut our archery teeth in Colorado state forest state park before too many folks figured out there were quite a few elk in there. Then one season, there are tents pitched in multiple feeding and transition areas and the area was pretty much ruined.

It’s sucks that so many folks with a lack of woodsmanship and knowledge of ungulate tendencies and habits are flooding the mountains and ruining what used to be some good elk hunting. Our group has taken to only hunting draw tags every couple of years on a rotation and helping out the tag holder.

I hardly ever see nor hear any other hunters in my OTC Utah unit of choice.

I agree, I am more after an enjoyable elk hunting experience.

Hang in there,

Robb

NR only captured an opportunity that resident legislature and CPW created. Look at your fellow residents for the cause. Not the guy driving 3000 miles round trip to come hunt because there’s a license that says he can.

You really make more sense complaining about other people buying Sitka, using expensive broadheads, bows, arrows, boots, etc…. Versus trying to justify sone e paying for your elk hunting.

I did notice that the elk in the areas that I’ve been hunting the last 15 years or more have maybe moved out of the area. They have always been there in the past and I’ve taken quite a few elk out of the area but this year they never showed up in my cameras. It’s been 2 1/2 weeks since I have had an elk in my cameras and it’s not hunting pressure that pushed them out. I have seen a lot of wolf shit in the area though.