Corax_latrans's Link
But this is the first I’ve heard about a lawmaker publicly voicing a change of heart on a Gun issue…
It’s a lot more balanced piece than I have ever seen before….
politics is rarely what it seems on the surface.
Sounds like somebody else is a democrat, they're sue happy...8^)
I've always found the whole (ar) thing humorous, after sandy hook , everyone figured (ar's) were gonna be banned and millions were sold.
You want to sell something in the usa, just get the American people to believe it's all gonna be gone.
Kinda like toilet paper in the beginning of covid.
Glad I could help 70!
It's not about squirrel and duck guns.
Not even my father whom was a career marine.
Remington had started promoting the bushmaster as a viable hunting platform along with a few others about the same time sandy hook happened , and after that the ar type platform flood gates opened.
Prior to that a defense type shotgun & a 1911 was about as close to a weapon of war anyone I ever new had.
All true. And your earlier point about the ban on them spurring sales is correct. No argument from me. In this day an age, an AR is about the closest thing to what the founders intended. Civilians armed with weapons on par with what the guys shooting at them are carrying
Partially correct with the Remington/Bushmaster part. However, the floodgates opened in 2004 when the Clinton era AWB ended. It's been almost 20 years. And the number of deaths caused by ALL long guns, including the AR is roughly half of those caused by, knives, fists, blunt objects...
Not my go-to for most stuff but they fit some applications great. Building a 6mmARC at the moment.
Let's not lose sight of the reality that when a mentally ill person decides to take out a bunch of people they usually choose a gun that was designed to take out a bunch of people.
Your mini14, my personal favorite, a ruger 44mag carbine, a rem742 etc,etc,etc. Although yes gas operated semi auto, their designed purpose was / is a sporting firearm.
Sorry brother, not an apples to apples comparison. Perhaps in basic function, yes. But in intended purpose, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Mentally ill people choose the gun they've been told repeatedly to choose. Even when the gun used wasn't an AR the media reports that it was an AR "style" weapon. Guns that function exactly the same have been around forever. The gun isn't the problem no matter black and scary looking it is. The problem is people with mental illness that aren't getting help.
The intended purpose of a firearm lies strictly with the person holding it. A person driving the speed limit in a Ferrari is no more guilty of of speeding than a guy driving a Malibu the same speed. Owning the Ferrari doesn't change the dudes intended purpose of how he uses it.
People kill people, the gun is just a tool. Trust me I 100% understand...........however when folks attempt to compare a m&p style of gun to a sporting style of gun ..........to me & imo those folks are completely ignorant in their attempt to make a point. Absolutely a gun is a gun, no doubt, however some are made for killing people & others made for killing critters, if a person can't differentiate between the two than I'd rather not even convers with them.
You've mentioned being raised by a Marine before. I imagine he instilled in you many things, including much about guns and their purposes. Can I assume that a lot of he what he taught you was based on a military mindset? My dad instilled many values about guns to me. None of them were based on hurting humans. It was 100% recreational and hunting. I wonder if you and I have slightly differing mental images when we think of guns due to our upbringing?
Remember what I said about telling the American people they can't have something. Well guess what. Civilians had no interest in m&p type weapons until they thought they couldn't have them. And then all the sudden omg.
I'm gonna ask you a serious question,,,,,,,,,have you ever once in your life felt the desire to go walking around downtown proudly displaying your ar or shotgun or deer rifle just because its your 2a right to do so if you please. Well that's the world we live in now.
I much preferred the days when hunting guns were in pickups in the school parking lot because we were going hunting. And not because we felt the need to exercise our 2a rights. Or God forbid need those to defend ourselves against our own government.
No, I would also prefer things were like they were when all my buddies and I had guns in our trucks in the high school parking lot. Tracked a lot of mud and a few feathers into school after quick morning hunts. People fired up about their rights is a symptom brought on by people trying to take them away. I have no desire to open carry just to make a point. I rode my bike to school with my shotgun in 6th grade so I could hunt the river behind school with a friend until my dad would pick us up when he got off work. It was a rural school and it was no big deal. Mrs Landers would put it in her closet behind her desk until the bell rang.
Actually I think it was the M1A...
Pictured is the 30 carbine round beside a 308. Also the ruger mini14 was / is chamberd in 223.
Later when self contained cartridges became a thing, repeating rifles were developed which improved things greatly (big improvement in the rate of fire). Lever actions were a late addition in the civil war. and of course became pretty damn popular for hunting as well. Same thing with bolt and semi autos, people always shot what they were familiar with. I’m not sure that military and hunting rifles have ever really been as separated from each other as some would have you believe. “ARs are only made to kill people” is nothing but a gun grabbers catch phrase. It’s no more accurate or Inaccurate or helpful to the entire debate than “you don’t need 20 rounds to kill a deer”. Our God Given right to Keep and Bear them isn’t for hunting. If folks want to change that, our Constitution provides pretty explicit directions. Repealing an amendment is supposed to be a thoughtful, deliberate and difficult process. That fact is why wanna be tyrants in DC take a different approach.
BTW the Ruger Mini-14 can also be chambered for the 300 Blackout, and the 7.62x39 (AK47 round) which they named it Mini-30...
On a side note. Having owned a 30 Carbine I can honestly say it's about the last gun I'd choose for battle.
And which one of us has ever walked into a gun store and been able to buy a gun with a selector switch?
But civilians can own a select fire AR15 (m4) or a Ruger Mini 14 (AC556 Model) or a M2 30 carbine select fire If you pass the background check for a Class 3 weapon and pay tge one time $200 tax stamp
Of course that was just an FYI and has nothing to do with this conversation.
There was a time not that long ago when the (((only))) people that had m&p type weapons were the m&p.................
then in the middle to late 90s things changed & especially after sandy hook.
This fear that these type of guns were gonna be banned from civilian purchase drove sales to unbelievable numbers.
I have no issues whatsoever with an AR platform rifle in civilian hands,,,,,,what I have issues with is when someone shows a picture of a rem 742 beside an ar15. And says their exactly the same. Well to that I say " bullpoop" one was designed to hunt critters & the other was designed to hunt people.
Other than looks, what's the functional differences between a 742 and a AR? They both are semiautomatic rifles with detachable magazines. Nothing more, nothing less.
And once again, why bring up select fire switches in a conversation about semiautomatics?
Myself personally believe one was designed to shoot clay pigeons & birds. The other designed to kill people.
Back to you. Please tell me how the Rem and AR are functionally difference. Other than looks why should one be treated differently than thee other?
And if the AR is a war gun intended to kill people why are you in favor of civilian ownership? I misunderstood several of your earlier posts and thought you were against m&p gun ownership.
Kinda like saying there's no difference between a Ford ranger & a f350. They both burn gas to move the tires ,,, right,,,
I'm certain you'll reply something like ,,yep,, both trucks,, nothing to see here,,,,to which I'll reply ,,yep,, lest see ya pull a 10k trailer behind the Ford ranger.
And once again... tell me how the Rem and AR are different besides looks.
Intentions are a human thing, not something built into a machine. Capabilities are built into machines. Your Rem is capable of the same thing as the AR. Your Ranger (unlike the Dodge 3500) is not capable of the same things as the F350.
While your at it go ahead and dunk your 742 in a mud hole then run a few more mags through it. It'll be just fine. It was designed for that kind of battlefield abuse ....
Dude grow up your arguing simply to argue.
Apples to apples remember........
I can assure you I'm far from it.
To clarify, I was born in 1961. I grew in a generation where for the most part the m&p were respected/trusted, we had faith in our government Civilians had hunting/sporting arms & m&p had well m&p type arms.
Guns were acceptable in vehicles in the school parking lot because we were hunting animals before & after school & NOT PEOPLE.......if ya had a problem with someone ya punched em in the nose instead of emptying the mag of your glock or ar on em.
Not exactly sure exactly when it changed but sandy hook seemed to be the fuel on the fire moment.
ALSO COINCIDENTALLY...this was around the same time of, AOL & the startup of the internet !!!
I guess the if ya can't beat em than ya best join em mentality was adopted.....
Well I'm old school, I don't live in fear & if my trusty old 12 Guage loaded with buckshot isn't enough than so be it.
If the poop ever does hit the fan, sighn me up as a sniper with my deer rifle, yall can hold the front lines with your ar's.........
TIMEX......
Growing up my only exposure to military weapons was a neighbor of mine who owned military weapons. Yes, the Amalite rifle wasn’t as popular then as it was now. But, neither was computers, phones, or the idea that the AR was an assault weapon.
An AR isn’t made to kill People. It’s a common platform with an adjustable stock. It’s semi automatic, just like the 742 or the mini 14. And, its UNIVERSAL parts ensures its availability if it breaks.
It’s a very useful design. And, it’s probably used by more young kids to shoot animals with then anything else. Not because it’s made to kill people. But, because a 90 pound kid that’s 5 foot tall will find a perfect as a fit as a 6’5” adult. Due to its adjustable stock.
Just because someone sees it different doesn’t make it so.
is it really any more complicated than that?
My question to you was never a philosophical one, it was purely mechanical. You gave your answer as to why AR's are different than all other semi-autos; AR's have better barrel metallurgy, they won't misfire if dropped in the mud, and they have a heat shield. That's all I was asking for.
After reading your last post I do wonder what you think about owning an AR, the reasons people are buying them. When I was kid in the 80's we bought AR's, SKS's, AK's, Mini14's, Nylon .22's, 10/22's, Remington semiauto's, shotguns, etc. That's how I formed my opinion that none of them are really much different other than little things like where the safety is, mag release location, and charging handle size. As a kid I never once thought of any of them as defense weapons... just fun guns to shoot (and we shot A LOT!). I truly believe that currently most AR's are designed and advertised to relieve a fool from his money. Lots of cheap products out there with gimmicky add-ons that need tuned to even function adequately. I like to play with them but if I felt I needed a defensive weapon in a building or room situation it would be a shotgun with zero second thoughts.
I am now and will always be a 2A supporter. I will never own an AR. My bolt action rifles are more accurate at 250 yards than an AR at 100. My shotguns are more accurate at 25-50 yards. My hand guns are more accurate at 10-30 feet.
Modern black plastic & flat black ceracoat guns are just tools, I view the ar type guns in the same light, their just tools. Can't help it I'm just an old school classic hunting gun kinda guy.
Absolutely!!! I HATE that most rifles sold today are plastic. It has become difficult to find a gun that's pretty for a reasonable price. Same with the blueing, I'm not much for the "coatings" they are putting on guns nowadays and much prefer a good blue. My shotgun brought up earlier in the thread has plastic furniture and black metal. I've looked for wood to replace it with but they don't make it. I have chunk of walnut and have considered making my own but doubt I have the skill to make the forearm. I would have bought a prettier gun but couldn't justify affording it. Lol, I will add that I don't believe looks change function though. :)
Kind of an interesting sentiment. The people who put their lives on the line have chosen ARs as the go-to weapon for all of those situations (namely, engagements inside of 250 yards). There's a reason SWAT teams and special operations aren't conducting CQB with handguns and shotguns as their primary. Even those in designated marksmen roles are generally going to accurized ARs for a variety of reasons.
Very true. That situation has not nor will it likely ever present itself to a citizen in his own home within the continental US. If I ever need to protect myself in self defense within my own home, it will be against one or maybe two intruders, not an army.
Shoot and let shoot.
Your home defense scenario is not too dissimilar to what most LE/mil related CQB operations are. As an example, most SWAT teams are not fighting an "army" - generally it is a single individual. Again, there's a reason they choose ARs and not shotguns or pistols for these engagements. Those reasons are equally applicable to a citizen defending their own lives or those of their family.
On a coyote stand when 5 show up at once? They are a good fit.
Here's one I made many years ago. Made everything except the barrel (Army surplus), even formed and heat treated the springs. It was a fun project!
And I know quite a few mil/LE (active and retired) who have a bedside AR that is their go-to gun if something goes bump in the night. And I fully support the logic behind their choice. It comes down to firepower, ammunition capacity, ease of shooting, and the fact that they are generally equipped with more user friendly accessories (lights, lasers, etc) for low-light/no-light engagements. That's what's important to me, but YMMV.
Several of us had just hung new targets at 100 yards the range officer gave the range is clear ok & this yahoo proceeded to John Wayne a 15 round mag from his ar blowing mud all over the targets we'd just hung, the range officer was flipping out, hot brass was bouncing all over the shooting benches. Yea that was a hoot ......
Kinda put a sour taste in my mouth for the pow,pow,pow,pow,pow,pow,pow,pow,pow,pow, guns that's never completely gone away.
