355 million
General Topic
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Will tell 16-Feb-24
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From: Will tell
16-Feb-24
Wow, that’s some moolah.

From: Bou'bound
16-Feb-24
Not as much as 356 million

16-Feb-24
Much Less than the tax base they are going to lose in the near future.

From: 4nolz@work
16-Feb-24
Sickening

From: Groundhunter
16-Feb-24
NY must be a great state for business, geesh. They just keep after this guy, going to push him into the White House

From: csalem
16-Feb-24
Altitude I think the companies considering g relocating is going to get larger. Time will tell but for sure it’s not over yet

From: scentman
16-Feb-24
For sale, cozy 2 bedroom cape with great potential for expansion, on 25 acres of prime hunting property in WNY state... asking 375,000. PM me for details. Just getting a jump on the exodus ;0)

From: fdp
16-Feb-24
Major locations for business change all the time. Always have and always will. An area that is the center of an industry today, will be on the fringe tomorrow. An area that wasn't on the map 5 years ago will be an epicenter 5 years from now.

From: scentman
16-Feb-24
Frank I may agree with your post to an extent... but the price of property in NYC is unimaginable to your average person, no less the taxes to keep the property.

From: spike78
16-Feb-24
Just spoke with a guy today that works for a company in central Mexico. He said there are a bunch of US companies there. Sad we have to relocate elsewhere.

From: fdp
16-Feb-24
"but the price of property in NYC is unimaginable to your average person, no less the taxes to keep the property.".....gettin' to be that way here too.

From: scentman
16-Feb-24
Tumps move business to Texas, hiring endless supply of workers from the South! Oh I can see the headlines...lol!

From: WI Shedhead
16-Feb-24
Think of all the union service jobs that lib judge just got rid of. Keep voting democrat it will get better

From: Mint
16-Feb-24
According to Jonathon Turley there is no basis for a fine that large since no one lost money. He believes the appeals court will let the conviction stand but reduce the award. He said if that doesn't happen the US Supreme Court might step in like they did with a BMW case and reduce the award. I think any appeals court would look at other other case where this happened and there isn't any. This is the first time it was used and they have no other pending cases even though every realty firm inflates their assets based on their calculation of market value. I was a CPA at a firm that specialized in NYC real estate and we would review the calculations.

From: scentman
16-Feb-24
Jonathon Turncoat... at the end of every of his opinions remains on the fence post, legal scholar... fox clown in my opinion.

From: BowSniper
16-Feb-24
All conservative businesses should start moving out of the state and cripple the bastards. While he fights every partisan decision at higher courts until he gets a fair trial with a fair judge. While red state AG's attack every major liberal/progressive business until they "find" similar crimes on a similar lawfare basis. The sword needs to start cutting both ways.....

From: HDE
16-Feb-24
^^^ people aren't really serious about crippling the bastards.

When you read about whether or not someone should be upset about a deposit and two costly trips...yeah, people don't want to give anything up to shut anyone down.

From: Stix
16-Feb-24
Corruption.

They whole world is full of it, and all will face perfect judgement in the end.

From: Matt
16-Feb-24
"According to Jonathon Turley there is no basis for a fine that large since no one lost money."

As a former banker, that isn't exactly true but the answer is nuanced. Banks didn't *lose* money per se (in terms of writing off bad debt), but Trump is estimated to have saved almost $200M in interest based on his company's false financial disclosures. Those are funds that should have been paid to the banks but weren't.

When I was in commercial/corporate banking, we established the interest rate on our deals using very complicated pricing models based on the quantified risk of the deal. The riskier the deal, the higher the interest rate. Trump led banks to believe there was less risk in the deals than there was by over-valuing assets.

There isn't a great analogy that applies to our daily lives, but it would be akin to a person telling their automobile insurance company that they only drive 1,500 miles/year when they actually drive 30,000 mile/year. If there was an accident the auto insurer would pay out the full amount on any claim dollar for dollar, but the insured's premiums over the course of the policy would have been significantly lower than they should have been based on the false mileage claim.

From: sasquatch
16-Feb-24
How in the world are Bank ls not responsible to do their own due diligence on figuring out what a property is worth???

Would you loan someone money without verifying what the collateral is worth??

When I buy a house, the bank does an appraisal first before giving me money.

How is this different??

From: RK
16-Feb-24
Matt?

From: soccern23ny
16-Feb-24
Hahaha... plus the 83 million from lible case. Plus the other hmcase coming up.

Quick guys, donate to the struggling self proclaimed billionaire who bankrupts every company he runs including a casino of all things

" a fool and their money are soon seperated"

From: Matt
16-Feb-24
“How is this different??”

The better question would be “how are they the same?”, and the answer would be “hardly at all”.

Residential mortgages are generally one loan to one property. Since the real estate is taken as collateral for the loan, banking regulations dictate an appraisal is required and certain loan-to-(collateral) value ratios must be observed.

In Trump’s instance, banks were virtually guaranteed to not have taken real property as collateral (so no appraisals), but were likely providing an unsecured credit extension either based on his cash flow or based on the magnitude of his assets and - this is important - based on a his personal guaranty. That means that, if things went to hell, they would look to him to write a check to make them whole. And that would predominantly come from liquidity, harvesting refinancable equity from assets, or assets disposition. In the event that asset values were significantly lower than represented, repayment coming from asset refinancing or sale would be much less than represented. ***That is where banks take losses.****

It is foolish to think that valuing Mar-a-Lago is as easy as valuing a single family home, and even more-so a portfolio of multiple properties similar to Mar-a-Lago.

My sense is banks probably did their own analysis of the asset values Trump’s team provided, but that result of that sort of analysis can be highly flawed when lenders are provided fraudulent information which was the case with Trump.

When we accepted personal financial statements from high net worth individuals, we required that they include a statement that they were true and correct to the knowledge of the preparer and that the statement be signed with a wet signature. Some include verbiage indicating and requiring acknowledgement that it maybe be a crime punishable by fines or imprisonment to knowingly make false statements.

Fines it is I guess ….

Regardless, it is no defense of fraud claiming a bank didn’t verify asset values. And while I do not believe banks had to write off any debt as a result of the asset mis-valuations, it is important to note that, had economic conditions played out differently, the fraudulent assets valuations provided by Trump’s org could have set the stage for bank losses.

16-Feb-24
As an ex-banker, executive vice president, and CFO of a bank, and current cpa, I could not disagree with Matt more. Bank's are 100% responsible for due diligence, especially on real estate (which required independent appraisals). You never took a clients word as a golden rule. The bank lost zero, zilch, nothing (they made money) as they charged an interest rate and origination fees that were applicable to the perceived risk at hand. If they took on a signature loan (signature meaning Trump signs it and that's good enough for them) that is their risk they accepted.

It's honestly embarrassing to think that after being entrenched into banking from the guts out for years to think that the bank "lost"... the fact that "we accepted personal financial statements from high net worth clients...blah blah blah" is even more telling on poor banking acumen. Yes they get those, but these bankers are not the problem here. No one lost money, the loans were paid according to the loan. These bankers considered themselves lucky to rub elbows with Trump.

The problem here is that you have historic left wing pursuits, in an 85% left wing area, and a radical left wing judge that would do anything to "get Trump" (and campaigned solely on it).

Also, what's very important to remember is that the bank's are not the ones here crying fowl.

From: fdp
16-Feb-24
It makes -0- difference. If you knowingly over or under value something you have fraudulently represented it. And the only reason a person would do that is for personal gain.

From: Matt
16-Feb-24
“Bank's are 100% responsible for due diligence, especially on real estate (which required independent appraisals).”

That is only true if banks take real estate as collateral (D/T), which i highly doubt they did in Trump’s case.

“The bank lost zero, zilch, nothing (they made money) as they charged an interest rate and origination fees that were applicable to the perceived risk at hand.”

But they didn’t. They priced their credit based on the risk presented by Trump’s org which was markedly different from the risk they actually faced based on the differential between presented and actual asset values.

Let me ask you this - what level of credit financings were you dealing with in your career? You sound like you worked at a community bank, not at an institution which would finance the likes of Trump.

Edit: just to put it out there, in my career I co-managed and participated in credits in excess of $1Bn - more in the strata of where Trump would be playing.

From: Beendare
17-Feb-24
I think the system of equal justice is important…and I think Trump was dead wrong here…but its not even close to equal justice.

From: sasquatch
17-Feb-24
Matt, according to what you’re saying it seems like we just solved what’s wrong with the banking system.

If they loan people money based off of what the person “says” something is worth, and get screwed, then they deserve it. Thats like trusting a fox to guard a hen house.

Maybe they truly don’t care, as when their losses are big enough they weasel their way into dumping it on the tax payers anyway.

If trump is prosecuted for this, where are all the bankers and hedge fund prosecutions for 2007/2008

17-Feb-24
“It makes -0- difference. If you knowingly over or under value something you have fraudulently represented it. And the only reason a person would do that is for personal gain.”

if you were applying for a loan and the bank asked you for a financial statement listing your assets…would you list your properties at their assessed values or their current market values?

i know I damn sure wouldn’t sell any of my real estate holdings for their assessed value. when a bank asks for the value of an asset…they are referring to market value…not assessed value.

in this particular instance...this is a classic case of "show me the man and ill find you the crime."

17-Feb-24
If Matt loans money they way he describes. I need to know what institution that is.

Matt did you listen to the “Judges” ruling. He states that he couldn’t find comps in the real estate market near Mara Lago and ruled that it and a property in NYC were overvalued. When experts say he obviously does not know what he is talking about and if Mara Lago was returned to residential zoning the value could actual be over 1 billion since it could not be built for that and nothing similar has been sold in the booming market to comp it. The “judges” ruling on that alone will be overturned. Once the facts get into a more non biased venue experts will actually be listened to. This “judge” acts as he knows real estate more than the 3 Trumps he is biased against. He is peddling BS. No one loans anything without knowing they can recoup it somehow. Of course they aren’t taking his normal collateral. But Matt is spinning this to make us believe that the loaning institution was either harmed and or ignorant of his asset value.

The reason this even had standing is in NYC they have it codified that the government can intervene and interlope in that business.

17-Feb-24
If I were in the Trump org. I would hire a team of PI’s and find something on the dirty judge and the whole prosecution team.

They want to play dirty and mean. Well let’s take the gloves off and ruin their careers. Break them

Just as they did to little miss “Fawni” the angel of Justice :>))))

From: scentman
17-Feb-24
I think Trump is 10 steps ahead of that thought A S... when he gets elected there will be chaos, the likes this free ground has ever seen.

17-Feb-24
NY Democrats say they are confused and concerned as to why they are losing businesses and well-to-do citizens moving to Red States.

Or maybe Democrats are just generally confused.... and not terribly bright!

Pete

From: Keefers
17-Feb-24
Pete I agree with the last statement you made at least that’s what I’ve found in my observation of All the ones I know and listened to.

From: bigeasygator
17-Feb-24
When experts say he obviously does not know what he is talking about and if Mara Lago was returned to residential zoning the value could actual be over 1 billion since it could not be built for that and nothing similar has been sold in the booming market to comp it. The “judges” ruling on that alone will be overturned.

Which ruling? That fraud was committed or the extent of the fraud?

I think the judge understands pretty well the value of Mar-a-Lago. The crux of the issue is the “if” in the quoted sentence above. It is not deeded as residential property and therefore shouldn’t be valued as residential property. Trump seems to like to value things on what they could be (with a very generous interpretation of “could”), not what they actually are.

Whether that amounts to $355 mln in fines, I don’t know.

17-Feb-24
BEG, in the ruling he read out specifically a building in New York and Mar-a-Lago. He cited what he valued the property at.

and what Trump valued it at

the crux of the matter is that none of that matters. If I went in and said hey, I want to borrow $1 billion to buy this building and that institution did not check my value and what the building was worth. It’s gross negligence on their part and they don’t do that.

if a institution loans you money and they don’t do their own valuation, that’s on them, I borrowed and paid back a lot of money and I’ve never heard of an institution loaning money without doing an evaluation of your assets and what your borrowing the money for is worth.

Any institutions did not do that this case either they were paid back they made money, and they were happy to loan him more money, and in 70 years of similar cases, no one has ever been fined a fraction of This amount for more egregious actions. The facts are what they are.

17-Feb-24
And Donald Trump is the threat to democracy :>))

Also, BEG do you get compensated by this site in any fashion for taking a contrarian opinion on every conservative post. To keep the view and post count high ?

Bows? Hunts?

17-Feb-24
"I think the judge understands pretty well the value of Mar-a-Lago. The crux of the issue is the “if” in the quoted sentence above. It is not deeded as residential property and therefore shouldn’t be valued as residential property."

and what you dont seem to understand is that when a person values their assets, it is based on the market value of that asset. if trump were to sell that property...chances are it may well be for a use that it is currently not assessed for. that happens all the time...and it is most definitely not fraud.

about 20 years ago...a friend of mine owned 4 acres on the outskirts of town with a small ranch home on it. it was his residence...and was assessed as such. when businesses started to expand in his area...he sold the 4 acres and his residence to walmart for about a million dollars.

had he applied for a loan before he sold...would he state that his property was worth 1 million dollars...or the less than a hundred grand that it was assessed for as a residence?

your argument holds zero water. "if" is most certainly relevant when it comes to market value...because market value is based on what the asset could be used for...not what it is used for.

the only thing the ag and the judge understood is their desire to stick it to trump.

From: bigeasygator
17-Feb-24
BEG do you get compensated by this site in any fashion for taking a contrarian opinion on every conservative post

Didn’t realize that discussing property valuations and the impact of easement deeds had anything to do with where one falls on the political spectrum, but hey, you learn something new everyday.

it is based on the market value of that asset.

And when you claim a market value based on a set of assumptions that you know are false, that is fraud.

17-Feb-24
"And when you claim a market value based on a set of assumptions that you know are false, that is fraud."

what are the false assumptions?

whose responsibility is it to determine whether a stated value is wrong?

if im selling a classic car for 20k that nada says is only worth 5k and a person goes to a bank and they are willing to lend him the the money based on the fact that it is a rare model...did i commit fraud for valuing my car for 4 times what nada said it was worth?

From: DanaC
17-Feb-24
Ricky, your argument assumes that you have a willing buyer. Trump's properties were not on the market - he had no offers on them. His valuation of them was just a number he pulled out of his rectum.

From: 4nolz@work
17-Feb-24
yeah....when I bought my house I just accepted the appraisal and didnt get my own......

From: bigeasygator
17-Feb-24
what are the false assumptions?

Again, see above as examples of the assumptions that went into the Trump Organization valuation of their assets. There’s plenty more. Trump admitted in court that the Mar-a-Lago valuations were based on assumptions that were not true (namely that it was a private residence and could be sold as such).

did i commit fraud for valuing my car for 4 times what nada said it was worth?

The transaction related to a car purchase is apples and oranges compared to the financing Trump was getting. Two completely different things. And despite what you think, Trump is responsible for the accuracy of the information he is providing to lenders. But to use your car purchase analogy, the actions Trump took are more akin to you lying on the odometer disclosure to inflate your car’s value, which certainly is fraud.

17-Feb-24
"Ricky, your argument assumes that you have a willing buyer. Trump's properties were not on the market - he had no offers on them. His valuation of them was just a number he pulled out of his rectum."

one which the lenders accepted...therefore they lent him the money...which he paid back as per the loan agreement. despite what some think, there were two willing parties to that contract. if the lender didnt agree with his valuation, they were not under any obligation to lend him money.

who is the injured party?

in the example i gave about my friend who sold his property to walmart...had he not sold it and remained living there...paying the taxes base on what it was assessed for...would he have been committing fraud.

you guys are being ridiculous based on your hatred for one man.

17-Feb-24
"the actions Trump took are more akin to you lying on the odometer disclosure to inflate your car’s value, which certainly is fraud."

false. an odometer reading is not up to interpretation...opinion...market forces...or intended use. miles are miles...period. if my vehicle has a 100k miles and i say it has 50k miles...that is a lie. if someone thinks a piece of property is worth 50k based on abc and i think its worth 100k based on xyz...that is opinion.

you are the one talking apples and oranges.

From: bigeasygator
17-Feb-24
false. an odometer reading is not up to interpretation

Neither is the square footage of an apartment. Or the zoning of a piece of property. Or how many houses are located on a golf course.

if someone thinks a piece of property is worth 50k based on abc and i think its worth 100k based on xyz...that is opinion.

When someone seeks financing backed by an asset they say is worth 100k based on xyz but xyz is a lie and the reality is abc, that most certainly has nothing to do with “opinion.”

From: Will tell
17-Feb-24
Trump has been involved in over 4000 law suits. Your going to lose one once in awhile.

From: Jaquomo
17-Feb-24
Still waiting for a "victim" of Trump's supposed "fraud" to come forward. Crickets...

From: Will tell
17-Feb-24
Trump wasn’t charged with criminal charges because there were no victims.

From: tobywon
17-Feb-24

tobywon's Link
Please watch this explanation from Kevin O’Leary it was even on CNN.

From: ahunter55
17-Feb-24
Fanny Mae bail outs-wasn't that banks losing big $$$ from bad investments/loans? Trump caused NO banks to lose a dime, right? Paid loans & banks made money.. Where is the crime? Oh, it's on the bench passing out penalties.

From: bigeasygator
17-Feb-24
Trump caused NO banks to lose a dime, right?

Depends on your definition of “lose a dime.” As Matt clearly pointed out above, securing favorable financing due to misinformation certainly carries with it a loss on the other side when measured against what banks would expected to have been paid if the appropriate information was provided.

But no doubt that’ll be core to Trump’s appeal - that this is a “victimless” crime and everyone was “paid.” No doubt the state will counter with the argument that just because no one is stepping forward as a victim doesn’t mean someone should get a pass for fraud.

From: scentman
17-Feb-24
Always trying to rationalize the irrational... have to give it to you lefties;0)

17-Feb-24
"Under New York law, the five elements of a fraud claim must be shown by clear and convincing evidence: (1) a material misrepresentation or omission of fact (2) made by defendant with knowledge of its falsity (3) and intent to defraud; (4) reasonable reliance on the part of the plaintiff; and (5) resulting damage to the plaintiff."

From: fdp
17-Feb-24
The most irrational thing in these discussions is the suggestion that a person who is (by his own admission) one of the most intelligent, wealthy, and powerful men on the planet would be able to be caught up in such a blatantly conspiratorial act.

From: Nyati
17-Feb-24
BEG, so if I go to a store and buy an item on sale that is 10 dollars off the regular price did I cause the business to lose 10 dollars ?

The business agreed to the deal by putting it on sale. The same as the banks agreed to rates and terms of Trumps deals. There was no gun to their heads. Due diligence is on them.

The other issue is “the Brand”. Whether people like it or not there is a “Brand” associated with famous people that tends to elevate prices . We see that every day. Taylor Swifts brand, Lebron James brand. Hell, even Hunter was selling the Biden brand.

Brands increase price because they increase sales. The true value of anything actually comes down to 1 simple thing and that is what someone is willing to pay for it. We see that every day in our life as hunters. Is a moose hunt really worth 35,000 ? Apparently so because that’s what they cost now. Is a stone sheep really worth 70,000 ? Only if someone is willing to pay and apparently they are

From: 70lbDraw
17-Feb-24
“But no doubt that’ll be core to Trump’s appeal - that this is a “victimless” crime and everyone was “paid.” No doubt the state will counter with the argument that just because no one is stepping forward as a victim doesn’t mean someone should get a pass for fraud.”

So, when do we start investigating the common folks and their home loans, vehicle loans, business loans,…etc.? I guarantee you that a majority of us are unknowingly guilty of the same thing. Even you lefties that think you’re above the law, are just as susceptible to this type of persecution.

From: scentman
17-Feb-24
Yes Frank, but because he leads all polls to be our President again is the only reason we are talking about this... cmon man I know you are an intelligent person, so please stop the obvious talking points the msm poops out every hour.

From: Matt
17-Feb-24

Matt's Link
“Matt did you listen to the “Judges” ruling. He states that he couldn’t find comps in the real estate market near Mara Lago and ruled that it and a property in NYC were overvalued.”

Comparable sales is one of 3 valuation methodologies applied in commercial appraisals. The other two are the cost and income approaches. It is not uncommon for there not to be sales comps for specialized properties. When I was doing real estate lending, most appraisals I reviewed emphasized the income approach in establishing value.

In the attached link, it appears the court valued the property based on the income approach (essentially looking at the cash flow generated by the property and applying a cap rate to determine value) and it was over-valued by ~10x.

I do not know the particulars about the development restrictions Trump agreed to, but those sorts of things can impair value (sometimes significantly) and can’t just be reversed on a whim.

From: bigeasygator
17-Feb-24
BEG, so if I go to a store and buy an item on sale that is 10 dollars off the regular price did I cause the business to lose 10 dollars ?

This example is nothing like the transactions in question from the Trump case.

So, when do we start investigating the common folks and their home loans, vehicle loans, business loans,…etc.? I guarantee you that a majority of us are unknowingly guilty of the same thing

There is nothing about Trump and his finances that is “common.” When your finances rise to the level where you’re capable of fraud worth hundreds of millions of dollars, you’ll be under a different microscope.

From: huntforever
17-Feb-24
How is the world is it fraud and how did the bank miss out on "potential" interest when, by their own admission and testimony, they state they did their own due diligence and based the loan on a different ($2.3 billion vs. Trumps stated $4.2 billion) asset valuation and approved the loan anyway?! They thought they would make money by approving the loans and DID, at the interest rate they AGREED too!!!! Definitely a continued witch hunt!

Info below is copied and pasted.

During the trial, Deutsche Bank executive David Williams, who directly worked on at least one of several loans obtained by Trump over several decades, testified that it's "atypical, but not entirely unusual" for a bank to internally slash a client's stated asset values by 50% and approve a loan anyway, as they did with Trump, Bloomberg reported in November.

"It just depends on the circumstances," said Williams, a managing director at the bank.

Deutsche Bank, which loaned hundreds of millions of dollars to Trump for properties in Miami, Chicago and Washington, cut his stated net worth in 2011 and 2012 from about $4.2 billion to $2.3 billion, according to internal bank credit memos. The same documents indicated the bank approved the loans anyway because it expected them to generate a profit based on Trump’s history of successful developments and other criteria.

From: Nyati
17-Feb-24
Matt, That’s just stupid. What if someone owned a 10 acre vacant lot in Manhattan that generated no income. There wouldn’t be any comparable sales because there aren’t any 10 acre vacant lots in Manhattan. And because someone didn’t generate a revenue off of it then it automatically has a low appraisal, when in reality the real worth would be in the billions . Sometimes unique properties don’t have comparable sales because they are unique and rare which 99.9% of time makes them a higher value rather than a lower value even if there is no income generated.

From: Nyati
17-Feb-24
BEG, it’s the same thing In the store sale example, the store decided they could decrease their price by 10 dollars to help insure a sale of product even with discount that would still lead to a sale with a reasonable profit. The banks agreed to a lower percentage to ensure a deal with a lower price but still a guaranteed reasonable profit. Two different ways but results are the same

From: Matt
17-Feb-24

Matt's Link
The Fortune article linked above outlines aspects of the credit process used by Deutsche for the loans on Mar-a-Lago and a Chicago property. It is a pretty quick read and supports much of what I posted last night. Appraisals were performed on the properties taken as collateral and a review was performed of the financial statement values of other assets which were not appraised but which supported Trump’s personal guaranty. For the latter, lenders are much more reliant on borrower’s reported values as they rarely receive enough information to come to independent conclusions of value.

It indicates Deutsche relied on Trump’s net worth and personal guaranty in extending the loans. It also indicates that, based on their independent analysis, they significantly reduced Trump’s net worth from $4.3Bn to $2.4Bn. This was in part due to the bank deducting 75% of the value of the developments. That isn’t a difference between assessed versus market values, that is due to a gross over-statement of value by the Trump Organization as compared to the appraised value.

A couple of key excerpts from the article:

“Those (net worth) numbers helped Trump secure bigger loans and lower interest rates, said Haigh, who headed the risk group for the bank’s private wealth management unit from 2008 to 2018.”

“Deutsche Bank’s private wealth management unit, which handled the loans, wouldn’t have approved them without a “strong financial guarantee” from Trump, Haigh said.

Haigh said he reviewed Trump’s financial statements before approving the loans and, at the time, had no reason to doubt their validity.”

From: Nyati
17-Feb-24
And it sounded like a good business decision. Loans were paid on time and with no default. The deals benefited Trump and the banks. That’s the whole basis of our financial system.

From: huntforever
17-Feb-24
"There is nothing about Trump and his finances that is “common.” When your finances rise to the level where you’re capable of fraud worth hundreds of millions of dollars, you’ll be under a different microscope."

So we should go after the people and businesses who create wealth, jobs, tax revenue, and prosperity for all (even when it is a mutually agreed upon business agreement) and ignore the politicians/businesses who are not only capable, but who actually DO commit fraud and corruption in the TRILLIONS against the entire world. You don't need a microscope to see the blatant crimes committed everyday by these people, but yet here we are fighting amongst ourselves over the narratives we are fed by the people committing the crimes. Where did the adults of world go, and how can people not see what is truly happening. Blows my mind!

17-Feb-24
"Haigh said he reviewed Trump’s financial statements before approving the loans and, at the time, had no reason to doubt their validity.”

so what youre saying is that he chose not to do his due diligence...correct?

From: Matt
17-Feb-24
“Matt, That’s just stupid. What if someone owned a 10 acre vacant lot in Manhattan that generated no income.”

In situations like that, the appraiser would look at the highest and best use of the land based on zoning (e.g. office or apartments) and apply a methodology to value it based on similar, developed properties. When developed properties are appraised, there is a component of the value tied to the land, so there doesn’t need to be a vacant land comp per se. It’s not rocket science.

From: Nyati
17-Feb-24
This post just shows what TDS does to people. LOL

From: Matt
17-Feb-24
“so what youre saying is that he chose not to do his due diligence...correct?”

I don’t know if you missed the part where DB slashed Trump’s reported net worth by almost $2Bn, but the underwriting team absolutely did some level of diligence to arrive at that conclusion.

People at Haight’s level are not the ones doing the diligence, they are relying on their team to have done the work before an approval request is submitted.

17-Feb-24
" He states that he couldn’t find comps in the real estate market near Mara Lago and ruled that it and a property in NYC were overvalued."

in some markets...there is no such thing as "overvalued" because it is literally whatever the market will bear...and then some. two prime examples would be...manhattan and palm beach.

From: 70lbDraw
17-Feb-24
“There is nothing about Trump and his finances that is “common.” When your finances rise to the level where you’re capable of fraud worth hundreds of millions of dollars, you’ll be under a different microscope.”

The same logic you used when defending Biden from taking documents, as opposed to trump taking documents.

BEG, do you agree with the penalty? It seems the state of NY is the only beneficiary of their findings. Is the bank going to be reimbursed for a potential loss they never complained about? Will the money be used to bail Fawni out of fraudulent attempts to make a mockery of our legal system? Or will they just use the money to continue to fund the trump extortion scheme? Maybe use the money to secure our borders from terrorists and malcontents? Now THAT would piss off the old trumpster! Lol!

At this point in the game, it wouldn’t surprise me if trump suddenly had a “grassy knoll” named after him.

From: csalem
17-Feb-24
O’Leary and other Professional Real Estate Developers have spelled out the in and outs of what has happened with this situation. They ALL say the same thing on every major News channel

They however don’t have the one thing our “professional” bowsite real estate developers have and that is a raging case of TDS

What they left out of their observations was TRUMP Our TDS brain trust puts Trump first, reality last. Nyati was spot on.

As the election gets closer the severity of the TDS increases Kind of like in the Steven King movie , Silver Bullet. As the moon phase got closer to full the werewolf got Wolfier The TDSers get more TDSier as we close in on November

From: bigeasygator
17-Feb-24
And it sounded like a good business decision.

Fraud usually is…until you get caught.

so what youre saying is that he chose not to do his due diligence...correct?

Nowhere I’ve been has due diligence ever meant that every bit of information being provided by someone needs to be independently verified, which seem to be what some people are suggesting. In this case, I’m sure due diligence relies on information being provided by the Trump Organization and lenders expect that information to be accurate. Regardless, I still don’t see how relevant the due diligence argument is - if someone tells a lie and you don’t catch that lie it doesn’t mean that they didn’t lie.

The same logic you used when defending Biden from taking documents, as opposed to trump taking documents.

Huh?

BEG, do you agree with the penalty?

I said in my first post I don’t necessarily agree with the fine. I don’t know enough about how it was calculated to have an opinion on way or the other.

From: Beendare
17-Feb-24
In my lifetime, I have never seen the brainwashing done on the scale the DNC has perpetuated on their voter base as what is happening to Trump.

Liberal Dem voters along with the Fed agencies populated with these liberal Dems have lost all rational thought, common sense and critical thinking skills.

The 2 public cases currently have a corrupt prosecutor using the full power of the DOJ…and a never before unjustified massive judgement against an individual for political reasons- all because it is Trump.

Thousands of these transactions happen across the United States with no repercussions, but when it’s Trump, the federal government comes down hard.

Biden is found guilty for taking secret documents and the justice system rules. He’s a feeble old man in capable of facing trial….. but when it’s Trump, they throw the book at him.

Anyone with a modicum of common sense would say there is no equal justice here, our system of Justice has been politically corrupted.

No the TDS Democrats among us just snicker and justify that it’s OK since its the guy they hate- Fascism at its finest.

From: bigeasygator
17-Feb-24
Biden is found guilty for taking secret documents and the justice system rules. He’s a feeble old man in capable of facing trial….. but when it’s Trump, they throw the book at him.

This is where the true TDS shines through, as anyone can clearly see the difference in the two cases. Both men were found with stuff they shouldn’t have.

When Biden was confronted with this, he complied with investigators, turned over documents, and cooperated with authorities.

When Trump was confronted, he lied, tried to conceal documents, misled investigators, and then tried to make excuses for it. Had he reacted the way Biden did, it would be a non issue. He didn’t.

Anyone with a few brain cells and not suffering from TDS can read through the details and understand how the cases are different and why Trump is being treated differently.

17-Feb-24
I can’t imagine being a conservative paying taxes into the NYC tax base, watching it turn into a crap hole of violence, drug abuse and homelessness (sanctuary city :>)) and this is what they choose to prosecute. There is no way I would continue to pay taxes into that crap hole and would be gone.

Hopefully Trump immediately has the new agent for the corporation move the corporation out of that state. And others follow suit. Let others run it. Or sell it all just to screw NY

Here’s another question. if Trump sold Mar-a-Lago and the buildings in question for more than the ( real estate judge) valued it at. Would they cap the capital gains at what they valued at or what he sold it at

You can bet your ass if he only paid taxes on what they valued it at they’d be coming after him

From: huntforever
17-Feb-24
Matt, Below you referenced some statements from an article and made some comments on your own. “Those (net worth) numbers helped Trump secure bigger loans and lower interest rates, said Haigh, who headed the risk group for the bank’s private wealth management unit from 2008 to 2018.”

“Deutsche Bank’s private wealth management unit, which handled the loans, wouldn’t have approved them without a “strong financial guarantee” from Trump, Haigh said.

Haigh said he reviewed Trump’s financial statements before approving the loans and, at the time, had no reason to doubt their validity.”

I don’t know if you missed the part where DB slashed Trump’s reported net worth by almost $2Bn, but the underwriting team absolutely did some level of diligence to arrive at that conclusion.

People at Haight’s level are not the ones doing the diligence, they are relying on their team to have done the work before an approval request is submitted.

A few questions I have from your comments. Why did Haigh, who headed the risk group handling the loan, and who worked with his team that deemed it necessary to slash Trump's net worth by almost 50% (after reviewing the documents and performing their own due diligence) not require a "strong financial guarantee" like he stated should have happened? He stated he personally reviewed Trump's financial statements before approving the loan, so why didn't the slashing of Trump's net worth cause a red flag to him (unless this is a typical practice that happens in real estate development)? If the bank slashed the value to $2.3 billion, why didn't the bank base the loan amount and interest rate on that value, or did they? If they didn't and decided to approve the loan, as was done, than that was a business decision they made and thought it was still within their risk parameters. It was the banks decision to enter into the mutually agreed upon contract and they made the money they deemed sufficient for the risk they were taking. If Haigh didn't know his team cut the net worth before approving the loan, that is the fault of the bank, not fraud on Trump's part.

From: 70lbDraw
17-Feb-24
“When Biden was confronted with this, he complied with investigators, turned over documents, and cooperated with authorities.”

Except for the fact that Biden has had his documents for over 40 years: “By June 2023, FBI "agents found documents with potential classification markings, dating from 1977 to 1991, during Mr. Biden's service in the Senate" from the material stored in the University of Delaware, stated special counsel Robert Hur's report in February 2024.”

“Had he reacted the way Biden did, it would be a non issue. He didn’t.”

HORSE-S**T! You don’t believe that anymore than the rest of us do!

From: Beendare
17-Feb-24
BEG, you again prove your political partisanship.

Ooops, you left out they found him a feeble and forgetful old man incapable of facing trial…..but you think thats OK for him to be president. My gawd man.

I can’t stand Pelosi as her policy and hypocrisy has wrecked our country…but I am not so politicized to see that this behavior below is not OK and should be dealt with harshly;

This past week a load of manure was dumped in front of Pelosi’s home and two Code Pink activists were charged over a protest that damaged Pelosi’s garage door as well as the street and sidewalk in front of the house with red paint. Code Pink has protested Pelosi at her home for over a decade, but the pressure tactics by the left have been ratcheted up since Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, 2023.

Meanwhile in Washington, Code Pink co-founder Susan “Medea” Benjamin, harangued Pelosi as she walked though the halls of Congress in video posted February 6.

From: bigeasygator
17-Feb-24

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
A few questions I have from your comments. Why did Haigh, who headed the risk group handling the loan, and who worked with his team that deemed it necessary to slash Trump's net worth by almost 50% (after reviewing the documents and performing their own due diligence) not require a "strong financial guarantee" like he stated should have happened?

This is why. In short, it’s standard practice for DB. And as pointed out, the number the starting point was the Statement of Financial Condition provided by Trump.

From: bigeasygator
17-Feb-24
BEG, you again prove your political partisanship.

lol ok

Ooops, you left out they found him a feeble and forgetful old man incapable of facing trial…..but you think thats OK for him to be president. My gawd man.

Where have I said that? You lie worse than Trump, Beendare. No wonder you love him so much.

Regardless, am I only supposed to believe the part in Hur’s report that describes Biden as feeble and forgetful (which I agree with) but not the part where he enumerates the reasons the Trump and Biden document cases are different? Another question. Was Hur - a Trump appointee - suffering from TDS or showing his partisanship when he highlighted the differences between Biden and Trump’s cases in his report?

From: Nyati
17-Feb-24
If Trump wins this fall the unequal treatment Trump has received from DOJ and liberal judicial treatment that he has received from liberal cities is going to play a significant part of that victory

From: huntforever
17-Feb-24
BEG So, according to what you just posted, they did require a strong financial guarantee, which Trump agreed to. If I understand correctly, these loans were originated in 2011 or 2012 and by the summer of 2019, the loans no longer met the debt service coverage ratio required. This is why, in 2021, the bank decided to not renew the credit facility.

There is no fraud committed in that. Also, as mentioned previously in the thread, the method of valuing an asset can be extremely subjective. Any seasoned real estate developer knows then that the banks standard procedure would be to cut the value by 50%, so they would value the property at the highest reasonable value to maximize the loan amount and lowest interest rate. Again, it was the banks decision to approve the loan. They cannot blame anyone but themselves if they weren't happy with the results of their decision. This entire case is not even about the bank. They weren't the ones complaining. It is the state of NY complaining. If you think about it, a higher interest rate for Trump would have lead to lower profits and less tax revenue for the state and feds.

I'm calling it quits after this post. I have better things to do with my time than disagree with people that I know will never change their mind. Off to the gym for me! The mountains where most elk live never seem to get smaller :)

From: bigeasygator
17-Feb-24
There is no fraud committed in that. Also, as mentioned previously in the thread, the method of valuing an asset can be extremely subjective.

Nobody is arguing there isn’t some level of judgement involved in valuations and at the end of the day every single valuation is a subjective exercise. That doesn't mean there aren’t rules and guidelines when it comes to valuations or to calculating your net worth. To your point, some of the assumptions went beyond “highest reasonable value” per the judge, and the judge felt like this was done willfully. Per his judgement:

Donald Trump was aware of many of the key facts underpinning various material fraudulent misstatements in the SFCs: He was aware of having deeded away the right to use Mar-a-Lago as anything other than a social club, and notwithstanding, continued to value it as if it could be used as a single family residence; he was aware that the triplex apartment in which he, a real estate mogul and self-identified expert, resided for decades was not 30,000 square feet, but actually 10,996 square feet; he was aware that he did not control the Vornado partnership interest even though he represented it as “cash”; he was aware that he had permission to build only 500 private residences in Aberdeen, notwithstanding that he represented that he had permission for 2500; and he was aware that 40 Wall Street was operating at a deficit despite proclaiming that it was running a net operating income of $64 million. As Eric Trump testified, Donald Trump sat at the top of the pyramid of the Trump Organization until 2017. Donald Trump professed to “know more about real estate than other people” and to be “more expert than anybody else.” He repeatedly falsified business records with the intent to defraud.

From: Nyati
17-Feb-24
Let’s just call it what it is. Selective prosecution using a law in the way it’s never been used before to take out or harm a political opponent. If you’re ok with using our judicial system for that then that’s your right. But just know doing that will likely start a domino effect that will likely harm our country in the future. But then again, that might be one of the goals.

It’s not like we haven’t seen that before in other countries.

From: Jaquomo
17-Feb-24
Who on this thread hasn't protested a property valuation by using the lowest valued comparables, for the express purpose of....wait for it.....defrauding their County out of property taxes they would rightfully owe?

Ok, maybe soccerpussy, who moved to a Leftist state with super-high property values and then complains about how he can't afford to buy a house. Probably Trump's fault, too.

From: Glunt@work
17-Feb-24
No idea if this judgement will stand but since the Truth social merger was approved, Trump should be able to scrape up money.

Over valuing isnt anything new. Doesn't make it right but obviously the decisions to push this and the other cases against him were political. Could backfire. Traveling uncharted waters comes with risk.

18-Feb-24
"Let’s just call it what it is. Selective prosecution using a law in the way it’s never been used before to take out or harm a political opponent."

i agree...except for this...

"to take out or harm a political opponent."

from the looks of things...not only do these "selective prosecutions" appear to not harm him...they actually might help him.

From: DanaC
18-Feb-24
Love that logic - the more 'they' hate him the more 'we' love him.

"they actually might help him." I notice you edge with that "might". Do you actually believe the majority of Americans are not getting sick and tired of the Trunp show? Or are you you just parroting the talking heads paid to blow sunshine up Trumps ass?

18-Feb-24
All this prosecutorial misconduct orchestrated by the left is definitely solidifying support for Trump. And they know it. And it is intentional. The left wants to run against Trump.

But they now know Biden is sliding and losing support by the day.

Unfortunately Biden is the only candidate Trump can beat. If the 3 letter agencies don’t get involved again.

So Biden will be replaced by a blank slate. And independents will vote for the blank slate. Because by their very nature they are very easily influenced and will vote for a president that makes them feel good or enlightened.

So my analysis is a Democrat will definitely win in December one way or another

From: RonP
18-Feb-24
"All this prosecutorial misconduct orchestrated by the left is definitely solidifying support for Trump. And they know it. And it is intentional. The left wants to run against Trump."

I said the same thing in another thread and was made fun of. :(. Hurt my feelings.

No one is afraid of trump. I give him credit for still standing after all these attacks but, he has been made a fool of and will continue to be unless he selects george santos, herschel walker, lauren boebert, alex jones, or MTG as his veep. only then will his brilliance and political savvy have the democrats worrying and wishing desantis was the candidate instead.

18-Feb-24
”Do you actually believe the majority of Americans are not getting sick and tired of the Trunp show? Or are you you just parroting the talking heads paid to blow sunshine up Trumps ass?”

no. unlike others…i try to look beyond my personal opinions and see what’s actually happening with real people. whether or not i personally like trump has very little…if any…bearing on if and why I would vote for him. even a number of my liberal friends and acquaintances feel what is being done to trump is horribly unfair.

18-Feb-24
Trump supporters are being played by the left. They saw how his numbers went up anytime his was wronged. So guess what. Hit him from every angle. And make him the nominee

From: 70lbDraw
18-Feb-24
“Do you actually believe the majority of Americans are not getting sick and tired of the Trunp show?”

What we’re tired of is the complete lack of respect for the rule of law, not to mention, the complete ignorance of the left as they willingly make a mockery of it all. It’s obviously working, since you don’t seem to be concerned about the border crisis you voted for. Have you been paying attention to the fentanyl epidemic? Oh wait, no, CNN, and MSDNC, refuse to report on the reality of its impact since it might make China joe look bad for allowing it. So yeah…we’re all tired of the 3-ring circus that you insist on calling democracy.

From: Beendare
18-Feb-24
BEG, show us where I have ever said I’m a Trump fan- you can’t. You use a lie to justify and rationalize your partisanship.

You deflect and ignore the fact that a US investigator characterized your guy Biden as essentially not all there…they find the president essentially INCOMPETENT for gawds sake -he is barely there and you shrug it off and turn the discussion to Trump. ( face palm)

The guy whose job it is to protect the United States and he continues to fail. Send more billions to the Ukrainians that paid him off. Reverse Trump sanctions on Houthis, Iran and the Chinese- who also paid millions to the Bidens. I cannot believe how blind the Democrat voters are….oh, but the Dem machine has you totally fooled, “Look over there…its Trump”

Due to Dem policy, We are seeing many cases of criminal illegal immigrants he incentivized to be let in dealing drugs, stealing, assaulting citizens…..all because the Democrats want more voters they can subjugate…..

Thankfully, many Dems and folks like Rogan and Bill Maher are figuring it out.

From: Beendare
18-Feb-24
Kevin O Leary’s perspective ( he is not a Trump fan or hater)

My problem with this is it’s setting bad precedent and bad policy. And it’s a direct assault on the 11th sector of the S&P 500. I mean, you got to understand my perspective. I’m an investor, and I invest in real estate. It’s my largest holding. When we develop buildings, we create jobs. It’s a fundamental sector of the economy, not only for job creation in every city but also for investors.

When buildings get stabilized and start generating cash, they get put into REITs. And many, many, many retirees own these REITs for income, and they have for decades and generations. And the methodology, the entrepreneurial aspect of risk-taking in real estate development, whether it’s residential or commercial or office or retail, it doesn’t matter; it’s always the same.

If you’re a developer, and you start by building your first building, and you do a construction loan, you’re taking a huge risk. And if you’re successful, you end up with a stabilized building, and then you have a stabilized building that may be generating a six or seven percent return; that’s the cap rate. You go to a bank and say, “Here’s my building. I think it’s worth $400 million, and I want to borrow $200 million against the building. I bought another piece of land, I’m building another building right beside it, and I need $200 million, and I’ll put up my building that’s worth $400 million here as collateral.”

And the bank, and this has been going on since the beginning of time, the bank will say “No, we looked at it, and we think it’s worth $300 million. We don’t think it’s worth $400 million, and here’s the reasons we think it’s only $300 million.” And this negotiation goes on and has forever in every city. And the bankers are very sophisticated that lend in real estate development. They’ve been doing it forever. They have their own process of due diligence, and you, as the developer, are always promoting your building in the very best light. That has been going on forever. There’s nothing illegal about it. It’s a bartering system between two private entities, or public sometimes—it doesn’t matter. And it’s fully transparent, and that negotiated settlement is upon which the new loan is granted along with the terms and covenants.

( he thinks this egregious Fascist prosecution will get over turned on appeal)

From: bigeasygator
18-Feb-24

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
You deflect and ignore the fact that a US investigator characterized your guy Biden as essentially not all there…they find the president essentially INCOMPETENT for gawds sake -he is barely there and you shrug it off and turn the discussion to Trump. ( face palm)

Last I checked, this whole thread was about Trump, so not sure how I deflected when you’re the one who brought Biden and documents into the conversation. Nonetheless, as I said before:

A) Biden is not “my guy”

B) I agree with Hur’s assessment of Biden

C) I also agree with Hur’s assessment of the differences in Trump and Biden’s classified document cases.

Guessing you probably just stopped at the headlines and didn’t read what the special counselor said about Trump, eh? I literally said exactly what Hur - a Trump appointee - said in his report and you paint me as a partisan. You’re hilarious, Beendare.

Mr. Biden turned in classified documents to the National Archives and the Department of Justice, consented to the search of multiple locations including his homes, sat for a voluntary interview, and in other ways cooperated with the investigation.

"After being given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, Mr. Trump allegedly did the opposite. According to the indictment, he not only refused to return the documents for many months, but he also obstructed justice by enlisting others to destroy evidence and then to lie about it.

Again, no clue how Trump thinking he is above the law and rules don’t apply to him time and time again has anything to do with “partisanship.”

From: bigeasygator
18-Feb-24
The scenario O’Leary laid out isn’t what Trump is in trouble for. He’s in trouble for using misleading and false information to arrive at his valuations. It also isn’t the same as the loans were not simple construction loans like he is talking about. They were loans that were financed based entirely on his personal wealth, not on the appraisal of a single building.

From: Nyati
18-Feb-24
I think one thing has been overlooked. As President Trump had the right to certain documents. He and the archives can bicker over who has authority of the documents. Every president has done that.

Biden ILLEGALLY took documents when he was a senator out of a secure senate scif . Sensitive compartmented information facility. Senators can go into scif to look at documents but have no right nor authority to remove documents from scif

So it really isn’t an apples to apples comparison

From: 4nolz@work
18-Feb-24
Altitude Sickness: "Unfortunately Biden is the only candidate Trump can beat. If the 3 letter agencies don’t get involved again."

I agree.We'll see if theyll replace Biden I think they have to.Once again the Republicans get outplayed by the Democrats.They never learn.

From: 70lbDraw
18-Feb-24
“Mr. Biden turned in classified documents to the National Archives and the Department of Justice, consented to the search of multiple locations including his homes, sat for a voluntary interview, and in other ways cooperated with the investigation.”

Lol! Don’t t forget, China Joe had those documents in his possession for over 40 years before he “cooperated” and gave them up…too bad they didn’t charge him a late fee. You know, a few million dollars to teach him a lesson.

18-Feb-24
If I read the posts above correctly.

Kevin O Leary doesn’t understand what trump was charged with. And he knows less about commercial real estate construction than the detractors on Bowsite.

In my opinion. Kevin knows exactly what trump was charged with. And how the industry works.

From: Grey Ghost
18-Feb-24
O Leary's comments are also misleading about construction loans. Many construction loans are collateralized by the project itself, not by personal assets of the developer. I've borrowed millions in construction loans for the custom homes I built and sold in the past. I never pledged a dime of my own assets for collateral.

Matt

From: 4nolz@work
18-Feb-24
GG when you borrowed millions did the banks accept your appraisals or get their own?

From: fdp
18-Feb-24
Nyati, under what statute was Biden's possession of those documents illegal?

From: Grey Ghost
18-Feb-24
4nolz, I supplied my own comps and budgets. My bank never questioned either. It was a small regional bank, though, and I had a good working relationship with them.

From: bigeasygator
18-Feb-24
And that’s part of the crux of this whole case, Matt. These weren’t typical loans where the asset (or another asset) subject to the financing was put up as collateral. These were loans that were granted based on a guaranty of Trump’s wealth, and where the lender had recourse to pursue Trump’s assets if obligations were not met. The lending terms were much more favorable than a more conventional non-recourse loan whereby the bank can only go after the collateral.

Trump actually sought quotes on both loan types, and roughly half of the $355 mln judgement was based on the difference in interest between the two loan types that he had quoted, with the premise being that the only reason the more favorable recourse loans were approved was because he fraudulently calculated his net worth.

From: Grey Ghost
18-Feb-24
BEG, I fully understand the difference in Trump's case. I was just pointing out that O Leary was talking out his ass. I also know how easy it is to secure loans based on nothing but reputation, and how easily banks can be duped. They aren't as "sophisticated" as some people think.

From: Nyati
18-Feb-24
fdp,

under 18 U.S.C. 1924, it's a federal offense to deliberately remove classified documents or materials from their designated location without permission or maintain them in their assigned area.

From: fdp
18-Feb-24
So that would then indicate that the classified document issue with DJT was also a crime. And both of the offenders were asked to return said documents, one did so and one did not. So, had DJT returned the documents when it was requested that he do so, he would not have been charged with the offenses that he was charged with.

That's what I thought. I appreciate the clarification.

From: csalem
18-Feb-24
You don’t know if any of that is True frank. But as you know, Thanks for taking your TDS out for a quick stroll.

From: fdp
18-Feb-24
What part do I not know is true ? The part you don't know isn't true? Dude I'm not the one who brings up DJT at every possible opportunity. The most glaring cases of TDS that appear on this website are suffered by those who constantly try to defend his position and make him the seemingly innocent victim of stupid conspiracy theories.

From: Mint
18-Feb-24
You forget Trump had a disclaimer on the bottom of his financial statements. As a CPA who reviewed the same type of statements for at one time the largest residential real estate companies in the country I can tell you as a matter of fact no bank especially the large banks would have relied on them. You guys can keep fooling yourselves because you hate Trump but the Banks knew exactly what they were doing. I'm going through a bank audit now and I can tell you they are very thorough. Now GG maybe on some residential construction they let you slide based on market conditions but usually the construction loans are bonded out with commercial buildings so everyone has some risk.

During questioning, state attorneys declined to ask a Deutsche Bank executive if the bank would have still done business with Trump had they known his financial statements were inflated.

"They are not ill-gotten gains if the bank does not testify it would have done it differently," Kise said.

"I decided these were ill-gotten," the Judge Engoron replied.

If Trump wasn't running for election this case would have never happened period. I believe the conviction will stand but the judgement will be lowered substantially.

From: bigeasygator
18-Feb-24
You don’t know if any of that is True frank

I guess special counsel Hur was lying then in his report on Biden. Straight from the report…

Most notably, after being given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, Mr. Trump allegedly did the opposite

18-Feb-24
This one fact is very clear.

if Trump wrote a check for the 355 million. Where is the money going. To DB ?

Of course not.

From: bigeasygator
18-Feb-24
As a CPA who reviewed the same type of statements for at one time the largest residential real estate companies in the country I can tell you as a matter of fact no bank especially the large banks would have relied on them

What would they have relied on? This seems to be in direct contradiction of testimony provided by the MD responsible for the Private Wealth department at DB that approved the loan.

In deciding to approve the credit facility, Haigh relied on Donald Trump's 2011 SFC and assumed that the representations of value of the assets and liabilities were "broadly accurate." The Deutsche Bank Credit Report's "Financial Analysis" is based on numbers provided by the “family office” (here, the Trump Organizarion) and contains the same numbers represented in the SFC

From: fdp
18-Feb-24
Actually Mint since this is one of what 4,000 or more lawsuits Trump has been involved in, it's highly likely this suit would have happened. It's just that if he weren't running for President no one would care.

From: Nyati
18-Feb-24
fdp, you’re more than welcome. But no, it does not indicate that Trump having them was a crime. The rub is that out of a Senator or President only the President can declassify documents. Biden as Senator had no legal right to have the documents much less declassify them. Trump had authority to have them and to declassify them. Whether he declassified them according to protocol or how someone else wanted it done will be determined in court. Bottom line, Trump had full authority to have them, Senator Biden did not.

18-Feb-24
”If Trump wasn't running for election this case would have never happened period.”

the first of the indictments trump is dealing with now was brought a few months after he announced for 2024.

coincidence I’m sure…

18-Feb-24
”…since this is one of what 4,000 or more lawsuits Trump has been involved in…”

you keep bringing that up like it’s a big deal.

do you have any idea how many lawsuits have been brought against most billionaires and the businesses they own?

From: fdp
18-Feb-24
Not a big deal to me Ricky, and I do t think I've brought it up before, and I really don't care how many lawsuits other billionaires face. But do you know the answer ? I'm sure Google does.

The statement was about Trump and was a response to the nonsensical post Mint made.

From: fdp
18-Feb-24
Nyati even that argument is hollow. If Trump had properly declassified the documents they would have been noted as such. Try again.

From: Nyati
18-Feb-24
fdp, as I understand it there was disagreement between Trump and national archives as to what was classified and not classified. At least Trump had them locked up in a room with special locks that investigators had recommended. Not to mention secret service protection at Mar-a-lago. Biden’s had them in partially collapsed cardboard boxes in his garage with no protection, no special locks, no control of who walked by them .

According to Archives personnel

“Every U.S. presidential administration since the 1980s has mishandled classified documents, “ according to testimony from a National Archives and Records Administration official Presidents for the last 40 years have mishandled classified documents, yet Trump is the only one they have actively went after. Seems odd to me but I’m sure not to you .

From: bigeasygator
18-Feb-24
Trump is the only one they have actively went after.

And Trump allegedly did things no other president did after being asked to return documents.

From: Nyati
18-Feb-24
Yeah, he decided to run for President again

From: csalem
18-Feb-24
Beg that’s wrong. But I’ll let you Ply your Google skills to find it

Fdp. Pal I had it all wrong. I had no idea you were in commercial real estate and development.

I knew Beg was degreed and skilled in every possible trade and profession but you too??

Are you a gator too??

This TDS crowd here represents so many areas of professions it’s hard to keep up.

From: fdp
18-Feb-24
Csalem I never indicated in any way that I am involved in real estate at all. I do however spend every day working in the criminal justice field.

From: fdp
18-Feb-24
If there was disagreement between Trump and the National Archives the burden was/is on Trump to address that and make sure that they are recorded as properly declassified. Period.

Trumps issue is he is Trump. He lives in a fantasy land with all kinds of delusional fantasies living in his head. From his self perceived level of intellect to his irrational belief that any action that might make him accountable for his actions is an election interference conspiracy.

From: bigeasygator
18-Feb-24
Beg that’s wrong

Guessing you weren’t part of your school’s debate team, csalem? Usually when people offer up a position, they’ll provide some details on why they feel that way and provide some evidence to back up their assertions. No matter. I can only assume “you’re wrong” is in reference to there being differences in Trump’s document case and that he behaved in a way different to, say, Biden.

Again, if that’s true you’re saying the special counsel who just ruled on Biden’s mental faculties was wrong. Show me where Biden lied about having documents, where he refused to return them, and where he asked people to conceal those documents, and then where he asked people to destroy evidence related to the investigation into those documents? I’ll standby.

I knew Beg was degreed and skilled in every possible trade and profession

Not every, but based on your less than insightful posts I would guess more than you. And no, you don’t need to be an expert or degreed in everything to be able to comprehend matters related to those fields.

From: 70lbDraw
18-Feb-24
“I do however spend every day working in the criminal justice field.”

Obviously not in an aspect that promotes a fair and balanced justice system. Wait… do you work for Fani? You sure act like her!

“Trumps issue is he is Trump. He lives in a fantasy land with all kinds of delusional fantasies living in his head.”

So where is the law stating that Biden is ok to sit on secret documents for 40 years before disclosing the fact that he has them in his possession? Whose fantasy was that?…Obamas? Lol!

From: soccern23ny
19-Feb-24
Tresspaser... have you Jaquomed today? Oh wait, had that backwards. What are you on about? All sad you lord and savior trump overestimates his property for loans but under values it for taxes? Go open up your check book and give him some donations or are you too big a pussy?

From: Jaquomo
19-Feb-24
Icky Nicky! How's my favorite lying, slandering Leftist POS doing today?!! Maybe the chemicals from your gender transition are making you cranky and unable to spell or write a coherent sentence?

Advice from a friend - drunk posting isn't a good look for you.

From: fdp
19-Feb-24
Lol!! 70lb. you are funny...no one even implied that there we anything that made it ok for Biden to have kept those documents. You guys are implying it was ok for Trump to have kept them.

From: DanaC
19-Feb-24
I can't help wonder how many of y'all are going to spend $395 on those gold sneakers >;-)

From: Catscratch
19-Feb-24
So what biden and Trump did can't be compared due to how they acted after getting caught (they both stole secret documents, the difference in the crimes is how they acted afterwards)? What about Clinton; didn't she have her phone destroyed involving her classification mishandlings? Is that a more comparable scenario to what Trump did?

19-Feb-24
"Yall take this arguing with internet personalities way to damn seriously."

oh the irony... :)

19-Feb-24
"I can't help wonder how many of y'all are going to spend $395 on those gold sneakers."

ill pass. hell...i think $50 is too much for sneakers. :)

From: fdp
19-Feb-24
What Biden and Trump did CAN be compared for the very reason that they DID respond differently.

19-Feb-24
"What Biden and Trump did CAN be compared for the very reason that they DID respond differently."

kind of.

how you reconcile the fact that while trump may or may not have returned them when he was supposed to, he was legally entitled to have them. on the other hand, biden was never legally entitled to have them. did he not break the law just possessing them?

From: DanaC
19-Feb-24
"he was legally entitled to have them. "

Nice try. That is exactly what *will be* determined in court.

From: bigeasygator
19-Feb-24
Are you saying Biden was never legally allowed to have the documents he was found with, Ricky?

From: fdp
19-Feb-24
DanaC you beat me to it. At this point we do not know which of the recovered documents were legally in his possession if any. But the main focus of the legal proceeding will likely be the fact that he intentionally ignored lawful requests to return the documents, and also instructed others to move and conceal at least some portion of the documents to keep them from being recovered.

From: DanaC
19-Feb-24

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
>;-)

19-Feb-24
”Are you saying Biden was never legally allowed to have the documents he was found with, Ricky?”

are you saying that a united states senator is allowed to be in possession of classified documents at his home?

From: bigeasygator
19-Feb-24
how you reconcile the fact that while trump may or may not have returned them when he was supposed to, he was legally entitled to have them

That has yet to be determined. He’s literally been charged for illegally having them.

are you saying that a united states senator is allowed to be in possession of classified documents at his home?

That’s not what I said nor is that the question I asked. To answer your question, the answer would be no.

Regardless, time and time again the DOJ has shown that they generally are lenient on matters related to the mishandling of classified documents, as long as individuals cooperate in investigations and take actions to address their missteps. And by actions, I don’t mean, lie, obfuscate, and obstruct.

From: soccern23ny
19-Feb-24
Tresspaser... the irony being trump is on the hook for 83 million for slander/libel. You've already explained how you're a trespasser with no respect. I have the threads and screen shots to prove it.... again.

Thats the problem with your type. You'll lie and lie and lie until the other side relents. It's just how your brand of people are... aint gonna happen here though. Makes sense why you like your daddy god trump. He's cut from the same shit cloth as you

From: 70lbDraw
19-Feb-24
“Lol!! 70lb. you are funny...no one even implied that there we anything that made it ok for Biden to have kept those documents. You guys are implying it was ok for Trump to have kept them.”

Fawni… you’re funny too…Trump was the last in a long line of presidents to possess classified documents. Y’all say even though there were no victims in the fraudulent fraud case against him, he broke the law and needs to pay. So tell us Fawni…when does your prostitutor of a prosecutor start applying due diligence of the law evenly?

It’ll be interesting to see if the truckers are successful in cutting New York out of their delivery routes. It’s time to start putting the screws to the lying, cheating, lawless, left wing extortionists and let them eat their own shit sandwich for a change!

From: Nyati
19-Feb-24
They were REALLY lenient on Hillary . But I guess taking hammers to phones isn’t considered obstructive when it’s a democrat doing it

From: Nyati
19-Feb-24
I wish I had bought a few pair of those sneakers. They’re sold out now and are being sold on e-bay for 5,000. Biden’s ice cream bibs are going for 1.99

From: Jaquomo
19-Feb-24
For those who don't know - the "trespassing" that our transgender friend keeps accusing me of consists of walking up to ranch houses and knocking on doors to ask permission to hunt. He/she is too scared to do that, and consequently had no place to hunt, while I have many.

I would deal with him/her personally but he/she is too frightened to register with his/her real name.

Carry on.

From: 70lbDraw
19-Feb-24
“the document's in trumps possession were most likely in the nature of dirt or leverage against his opponents & perhaps explains the reluctance to voluntarily give them up........again Purely speculation on my behalf,, But makes sense to me.”

Good point! It’s obvious the Democrats don’t care about the security of the country as much as the care about the fear that Trump instills in them!

From: Will tell
19-Feb-24
Those are some fancy sneakers for a bunch of old white conservative Republicans. Looks more like a Michael Jackson shoe. Love to see you fellas doin the moon walk. Don’t forget your sparkly glove.

From: fdp
19-Feb-24
70lb. (or Steve Bannon as the case may be) I never said whether I did or didn't agree with the judges decision in Donnies fraud case. It is time to start putting the screws to the lawless, on both sides. That's what the balanced justice that you referenced before actually does. It isn't a system that is used to just target those who disagree with you. Like Donnie has said he would do.

From: Will tell
19-Feb-24

Will tell's embedded Photo
Will tell's embedded Photo
My Granddaughters favorite shoes. She’s only 6 so they go nice with her sparkly dresses.

From: fdp
19-Feb-24
Timex you are a wise man.

From: bigeasygator
19-Feb-24
Purely speculation on my part...but I'd guess & especially considering the involuntary ousting from the Whitehouse,, the document's in trumps possession were most likely in the nature of dirt or leverage against his opponents & perhaps explains the reluctance to voluntarily give them up

Does nuclear secrets fall in the bucket of “opposition dirt?”

From: bigeasygator
19-Feb-24

bigeasygator's Link
Are you saying "you" have direct & factual knowledge of exactly what Trump or Biden had in their possession

Nope. Just going off of what I’ve seen reported, which is also obviously second hand information.

From: 70lbDraw
19-Feb-24
“It isn't a system that is used to just target those who disagree with you. Like Donnie has said he would do.”

Really?…again, Maxine Watters comes to mind. I bet trump would disagree with you that there isn’t some form of vigilante justice behind the democratic agenda. What can you tell us that would reassure us that trumps legal affairs are being handled fairly and justly?

19-Feb-24
Kevin OLeary said today he and other investors will no longer consider NY or California. Has nothing to do with Trump. It’s what one rouge judge can do.

He is looking to invest with others and build High tech data centers. They cost $2-3 billion each. They have a high electricity demand. So near Niagara Falls was in consideration.

They will now go to other states. OK, TN etc

The NY Governor is out on Damage control today trying to calm billionaires and foreign investors.

“ That they are free to do what trump did without being charged. It was only a trump they wanted.” Ok the last paragraph is me reading between her lines. :>)))

19-Feb-24
One key difference on the classified documents.

Trumps were locked in a room that the bureaucrats inspected and asked that he upgrade the lock system.

Bidens were in boxes on the garage floor in three of his mansions, and the Penn center. With crack heads coming and going. (Hunter and friends lived there without Joe)

From: bigeasygator
19-Feb-24
Trumps were locked in a room that the bureaucrats inspected and asked that he upgrade the lock system.

Where did you see that? I saw that there were rooms that were essentially concealed from investigators (a locked closet and hidden room). I also saw pics of classified documents found in a bathroom and a ballroom.

From: Bowaddict
19-Feb-24
Soccermom you truly are a dumb a$$! Most of your posts don’t even get support from fellow liberals on here. Like jaq I question how much of a hunter you truly are. Your biggest contribution to a hunting thread went something like this; “safety off finger hovering over the trigger” as you almost killed someone walking in the brush! I too walked up to a ranch in Nebraska right past 30 year old “no trespassing” signs to ask permission to hunt turkeys. The older couple invited me in and we talked for an hour. After I went and killed a turkey and stopped to thank them again and show them. They were appreciative of me checking back in after the hunt! We talked for another hour during which they invited me to deer hunt that fall! Keep sending your letters asking permission to hunt, it seems to be keeping the rest of us safe in the woods.

From: Bowaddict
19-Feb-24

19-Feb-24

Altitude Sickness 's Link
Bigeasy, it was reported widely in 2022

19-Feb-24
Bigeasy, I am not defending Trump. But what would you do if a politician was running for office in your parish and said in their campaign, I’m gonna get Bigeasy Using Stalin tactics, give me the man then I will find the crime. NY will be along side Venezuela, Russia and other corrupt areas no one will do business in.

and then a few years later, bring charges against you that no other prosecutor would bring after looking at the same case. Then, before the trial, the judge says you’re guilty without a jury

As the judge did here.

Taking Trump out of it. you would not have a problem with a prosecutor and a judge coming after you like that before she was even elected.

The boycott of New York are just starting. It’s gonna cost them far more than 350 million.

And if I were the loaning institution, I’d have my hand out, saying thanks for prosecuting for us. Where’s my money?

From: Beendare
19-Feb-24
OK, so you [BEG] agree with His statement Biden is essentially a senile incompetitant....and you try to tell us he isn't your guy........we know you didn't vote for Trump. You continue to defend the Democrat party at every turn....just wait until your party swaps out Biden for Newsom...or another easily manipulated useful idiot like Harris or Buttigieg. This is the Dem party....that you defend so adamantly.

Meanwhile, in Newsom's Dem run CA

California will welcome the new year by becoming the first state to offer health insurance for all undocumented immigrants. Starting Jan. 1, all undocumented immigrants, regardless of age, will qualify for Medi-Cal, California's version of the federal Medicaid program for people with low incomes.

The Democrats Senate candidate says why stop at $20/hr for fast food employees [the new law] let's make it $50/hr and that will solve the problems for the poor. [LA Times and others]

San Francisco in November will become the largest city in the nation to allow noncitizens the chance to vote in a local election, making the city once again a flashpoint in the debate about immigration.

In SF they appointed an illegal Immigrant [Chinese woman] to the election committee...Kelly Wong from Hong Kong was recently appointed to serve on the San Francisco Department of Elections. Screw the actual citizens....

Bring on the excuses.....

19-Feb-24
a few things we know for sure...if we are to believe the special council...biden had possession of classified documents...he knew he had them since at least 2017...and knowingly failed to return them.

as a matter of fact...he had them...and knew he had them...when he was pontificating about how "totally irresponsible" trump was for mishandling classified documents.

From: bigeasygator
19-Feb-24
Bigeasy, it was reported widely in 2022

Thanks for that. So for clarity, when serving a subpoena about missing documents, they direct investigators to a room where they find 38 classified documents. The Justice department comes back the next day, retrieves those specific documents, then ask them to secure the room a few days later (June 8th).

Three months later, they serve a search warrant as they suspect those aren't all the classified documents, and that's where they find 100 additional classified documents on the property (in a bathroom, in a ballroom, etc).

So to your comment that "Trumps were locked in a room that the bureaucrats inspected and asked that he upgrade the lock system," that's only true for a portion of the documents found on the property.

Bigeasy, I am not defending Trump. But what would you do if a politician was running for office in your parish and said in their campaign, I’m gonna get Bigeasy Using Stalin tactics, give me the man then I will find the crime.

Personally, I would chalk it up to politics. Y'all act like this is something new.

OK, so you [BEG] agree with His statement Biden is essentially a senile incompetitant....and you try to tell us he isn't your guy........we know you didn't vote for Trump.

Yes, I think you're watching an old man lose his mind right in front of the world. He's not my guy. And no, I didn't vote for Trump. I didn't vote for Biden either.

You continue to defend the Democrat party at every turn

I asked you to point out one time I defended the Democratic party, or more specifically, the Democratic platform. You didn't. You say I defend them at "every turn"...please point out one example where I've supported them.

From: Beendare
19-Feb-24
BEG, if I mistakenly characterized your defense of liberal policy, I would be surprised, but I will take you at your word . ———- The important issue here and unintended consequences the TDS Democrats are missing; IT TANKS THE STATE

What company or RE developer would want to do business in NY?

The NY court just flipped the bird at every large corporation.

They already have high crime and the worst tax rates in the US (49th) and now the state tells businesses NY courts are corrupt.

The TDS’ers in Ny just insured their downfall and they probably don’t even realize it.

19-Feb-24
Did anyone see the amateur NY Governor on all the shows. Doing damage control.

Telling billionaires they have nothing to worry about if their name isn’t Trump. look up her quote. Truckers are starting to boycott, taking anything into the city

From: 70lbDraw
19-Feb-24
“biden had possession of classified documents...he knew he had them since at least 2017...and knowingly failed to return them.”

“By June 2023, FBI "agents found documents with potential classification markings, dating from 1977 to 1991, during Mr. Biden's service in the Senate" from the material stored in the University of Delaware, stated special counsel Robert Hur's report in February 2024.”

From: DanaC
20-Feb-24
"documents with potential classification markings"

What are 'potential' markings? Did they find 'actual' classified documents with the potential of endangering US security?

From: shade mt
20-Feb-24
wealth and power, and higher education.........welcome to the soap opera.

while pretty boys in 3 piece suits, fight and scheme.......calloused hands in America, are getting up going to work, and keeping things running.

So put a little more tonic in your hair, brush the lint off your nice suit, straighten your tie, read your stock exchange, and plot your next move to rise to the top....

meanwhile Americans.....keep on keeping on., put their 3.69 a gallon gas in the tank, feed their family's, stare at all the immigrants going by, and budget their money.....despite the pretty boys and the soap opera "north of Richmond"

20-Feb-24

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
"The FBI found more classified documents at the Wilmington, Delaware, home of President Joe Biden during a consensual search Friday that lasted nearly 13 hours, his personal lawyer and a prosecutor said Saturday evening

The discovery was the fourth time since November that classified records or material has been found at a private address of Biden’s.

His personal lawyer Bob Bauer, in a statement, said the Department of Justice seized “six items consisting of documents with classification markings and surrounding material.”

Joseph D. Fitzpatrick, assistant U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois, told NBC News: “I can confirm that the FBI on Friday executed a planned, consensual search of the President’s residence in Wilmington, Delaware.”

Some of the items dated from Biden’s tenure in the Senate, where he represented Delaware from 1973 to 2009, Bauer said. And some of the items were from his tenure as vice president in the Obama administration, from 2009 through 2017.

under what circumstances would it be legal for a us senator to possess and maintain classified documents at his home?

20-Feb-24
Also, remember, Biden had classified documents illegally taken from a skiff since the 70s. Senators and vice presidents cannot declassify anything.

The only reason Biden‘s attorneys came forward was all the hullabaloo that Trump went through.

They knew he had illegal documents and they prompted him to allow them to turn them over. He did not willingly turn them over after decades of stealing them.

his attorneys told him he better get rid of them since the DOJ was about to go after Trump.

From: fdp
20-Feb-24
"consensual search"...

20-Feb-24
"consensual search"...

exactly.

imagine what they would have found (or not found) at trumps place if they "executed a planned, consensual search" of mar a lago?

instead, the fbi executed an unannounced raid...in the predawn hours...when trump was in ny.

From: fdp
20-Feb-24
They tried to execute a planned consensual search.

20-Feb-24
no matter how flat you make the pancake...theres still two sides.

From: fdp
20-Feb-24
And....that goes both ways RTCG.....it goes both ways.....

20-Feb-24
"And....that goes both ways RTCG.....it goes both ways....."

never have i suggested otherwise.

unfortunately when it comes to all things trump...the people flipping the pancake tend severely overcook one side.

From: fdp
20-Feb-24
" tend severely overcook one side.".....not any more so than those who do the same thing with Biden or the Democratic party, or those who fall for Donnie's 'I'm a martyr for you" crap.

From: bigeasygator
20-Feb-24
Pretty clear that pancake is burnt to a crisp on both sides.

From: soccern23ny
20-Feb-24
Jaqapussy... you walked past the sign that said no trespassing, private property, keep out.

In my part of the woods, that wouldn't have ended well for you. Sometimes you can't teach people to not be stupid though

From: Jaquomo
20-Feb-24
Keep digging, sweetheart. You have no "part of the woods". Everyone else on the Bowsite has done the exact same thing, many times. Show us one instance anywhere where a hunter has been prosecuted for trespassing for asking permission. Just one. You are one warped little snowflake..

From: Mint
20-Feb-24
BEG : What would they have relied on? This seems to be in direct contradiction of testimony provided by the MD responsible for the Private Wealth department at DB that approved the loan.

Probably his track record in the past and their internal workups of what the buildings value were to cover the loans. No financial person is going to rely on any financial records when it includes a disclaimer saying you cannot rely on the value or estimated value. From ABC News Trump's disclaimer told bankers to 'beware,' expert says

"Defense expert Jason Flemmons described the disclaimer included in Donald Trump's financial statement as the "highest level disclaimer" that could have been provided to bankers reviewing the document.

Flemmons said that the disclaimer, which he said includes "highly cautionary language," would allow a user to make claims that significantly departed from generally accepted accounting principles, known in the industry as GAAP.

"Was that language present in a substantially similar form in the compilation statements issued by Mazars for Donald Trump?" defense attorney Jesus Suarez asked.

"Yes," Flemmons said, adding that the disclaimer was "effectively saying 'user beware.'"

During his testimony and in statements to the media, Trump has claimed that the disclaimer shields him from liability in the case.

Suarez also used Flemmons' testimony to suggest that Trump's external accountants were responsible for understanding the methods used in the financial statement and determining their appropriateness.

That appeared to conflict with testimony of former Trump accountant Donald Bender of Mazars USA, who described his role as akin to plugging numbers provided by the Trump Organization into a template."

There is a reason why most companies have to have audited financial statements and independent appraisals. That is why the Asst.Attorney General did not ask the banks if they would have lent Trump the money anyway . because they knew the answer would be yes and thereby blow up their case. Hochul had to go on the top radio station in NY to reassure the real estate industry that they are safe and that basically they wouldn't be using this case in the future.

Were Trump was stupid is that he let his ego get the better of him since he would have gotten the same treatment and interest rates if he put down more reasonable valuations.

From: bigeasygator
20-Feb-24
Mint, are you saying the disclaimer gave Trump free rein to lie about the nature of his assets? That, for example, because the disclaimer was there it is not fraudulent to claim your penthouse was three times bigger than what it actually was? Or that your golf course had 2,000 plus homes on it that didn’t exist?

The judge addressed the disclaimer in his ruling and seemed to suggest that it doesn’t absolve Trump from providing factually inaccurate information. It’s not like this is just Trump using a favorable multiple or using generous comps when providing valuations for these assets. He straight up lied about them.

20-Feb-24
Lou, watch out. You could end up like Trump. Being prosecuted for an offense no one has ever been charged or convicted of.

From: 70lbDraw
20-Feb-24
“Jaqapussy... you walked past the sign that said no trespassing, private property, keep out. In my part of the woods, that wouldn't have ended well for you. Sometimes you can't teach people to not be stupid though”

If only you had the same sentiments about the border, maybe your logic would stand. I pictured you as someone that typically welcomes strangers with open arms…?! Am I wrong?

21-Feb-24
it is being reported that trump will have to come up with the $355 million dollar bond during his appeal process. that got me thinking...

the ultimate mic drop moment would be for trump to actually sell mar-a-lago for somewhere between $500 mil and $1 bil and post bond with the proceeds. lol

From: DanaC
21-Feb-24
He could probably post a lien on it in lieu of cash, if only the court would accept his estimate of its worth >;-)

From: Beendare
21-Feb-24
Now we have another case of Corrupt Democrat justice; Riley Gaines the outspoken critic of genetic males competing in women's sports was assaulted at the UCSF campus, hit by a man a couple times, herded off by campus police and left there to fend for herself.

A year later, the Newsom Democrat court ruled- no harm no foul....

All while Biden lies he can't do anything about the border....but he does try to buy more Dem voters with an exec order giving money to folks with student loan debt. Must----buy----Dem-----votes....which is of course the strategy with keeping the border wide open.

The hypocrisy of the puppet Biden admin is laughable- except we will all pay the price.

21-Feb-24

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
and in other news...

Trump Media's merger with DWAC gets regulatory nod. Trump could get a stake worth $4 billion.

"The funding partner for Trump Media & Technology Group said it has received regulatory approval from securities regulators that will allow it to proceed with a long-delayed merger. The combination could provide former President Donald Trump with a stake worth almost $4 billion.

Digital World Acquisition Corp. (DWAC), a so-called special-purpose acquisition company, said Thursday in a statement that the Securities and Exchange Commission had signed off on its proposed merger with Trump Media. DWAC said it plans to announce within two days a date for shareholders to vote on the deal.

The SEC said it doesn't comment on individual issuers.

Clearing this regulatory hurdle amounts to a major win for Trump and his media business, which runs the conservative-leaning Truth Social platform. The merger has been in the works since October 2021, but had stalled because of regulatory concerns and other roadblocks."

21-Feb-24
The judge set the fine for exactly the amount he knows through court documents that Trump has in cash.

From: bigeasygator
21-Feb-24
The judge set the fine for exactly the amount he knows through court documents that Trump has in cash.

No he didn't. He set the fine based on a calculation of "ill gotten" gains that were based on (1) interest savings on four loans that the judge ruled were fraudulently acquired (~$170 mln), (2) profits from the sale of two assets that benefitted from those loans (~$180 mln), and (3) severance payments to Allen Weisselberg (~$5 mln).

21-Feb-24

Altitude Sickness 's Link

From: Builder07
22-Feb-24
First, it's a Trump and Trump Company Entities fine. There were no injured partys to the suit or action as there were no ill gotton gains.

The fine was reverse calculated to get Trump's cash on hand with intrest (not to be forgotton). The fine was abosolutely calculated this way and there seems to be no doubt of that in the legal community in NYC. Which is why you have guys Like Mr Wonderful and others vowing to get out of Biz in NY in general.

Sems the DWAC deal will go thru after a few more hurdles and tidying up with Trump gaining 78 million shares of traded stock as it stands now. Over 4,000 million so the giddy MSDNC folks will be eating cold crow again soon.

From: fdp
22-Feb-24
There is a LOT of seemingly inside information related to the reasons for court rulings and cash on hand availability of the guilty party..

I wasn't aware that we had so many folks on here who are so close to the situation.

From: bigeasygator
22-Feb-24

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
There were no injured partys to the suit or action as there were no ill gotton gains.

You should have messaged the judge because he seems to think something completely opposite there Builder.

The fine was reverse calculated to get Trump's cash on hand with intrest (not to be forgotton)

So you’re saying the difference in interest based on the loan terms highlighted in the trial and the profit from the sale of his two buildings just so happen to magically align with some estimation of Trump’s cash on hand?

From: DanaC
22-Feb-24

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
A quick Google search of 'Trumps assets' showed this estimate, so yeah, he probably has the cash on hand to cover.

22-Feb-24
Trump said. The fine and interest is very close to the amount of liquid cash he has on hand. And the judge of course knows what he has on hand.

So Dana, BEG, Who should get, and who is getting the fine money. If it’s not overturned on appeal.

As it stands the AG office plans to keep it. How convenient

22-Feb-24
"A quick Google search of 'Trumps assets' showed this estimate, so yeah, he probably has the cash on hand to cover."

if an when his media merger goes through...he will be laughing in their faces...whether or not this ridiculous ruling is reversed or reduced.

not bad for what some think is such a crappy business man.

From: bigeasygator
22-Feb-24
Trump said. The fine and interest is very close to the amount of liquid cash he has on hand. And the judge of course knows what he has on hand.

If Trump says he has that on hand based on his track record he’s probably got half of it lol. And no, the judge doesn’t necessarily know this information. If it was not evidence in court, how would he know?

So Dana, BEG, Who should get, and who is getting the fine money

The People of New York are who brought the lawsuit forward, so they should get the money.

From: Mint
22-Feb-24
"Mint, are you saying the disclaimer gave Trump free rein to lie about the nature of his assets? That, for example, because the disclaimer was there it is not fraudulent to claim your penthouse was three times bigger than what it actually was? Or that your golf course had 2,000 plus homes on it that didn’t exist?"

What I'm saying is that the disclaimer is saying the Financial Statements, which were unaudited should not have been relied upon, in other words worthless and the banks lent him the money at that interest rate because they felt he wasn't a credit risk. They said on the stand that Trump was considered a 'whale of a client" that they wanted to land. Why didn't the Judge ask the banks whether they would have lent Trump the money at a lower valuation or what interest rate would they have charged at the lower evaluation? Because that would have blown up the case. Banks usually require the highest level of accuracy with Financial Statements and that is called Audited Financial Statements and the independent auditor gives a "clean opinion" saying the Financial Statements are materially correct. Next comes a "Review" which is less but looks at the major items on the Financial Statements and then the least is a Compilation Financial Statements which is the least reliable and the auditor just takes what the client gives them and "compiles" the information. Nobody would give out millions relying on a compilation. When it comes to the inflated square footage of Trumps penthouse that is in the extreme for sure but NYC real estate uses a unique "loss factor" when renting and selling real estate. Back in 2012 it was around 30% but i couldn't tell you what it is today. So if you go to rent or buy a building they will say it is 500,000 square feet but if you measure it out it really is 385,000 square feet. I would like to see the Attorney General go after that fraud in NYC. It will never happen since this was about getting trump at any cost and she campaigned on it.

From: soccern23ny
22-Feb-24
He's got so much cash on hand he's asking the judge for another month....

You know... so he can face all the bills the same direction.

Billionair aint a billionaire. Dudes "wealth" is tied up in buildings and bankrupt companies. The monies and donations he gets are from simpleton patsies here, and dark Russian money.

From: bigeasygator
22-Feb-24

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
Nobody would give out millions relying on a compilation.

^Nobody but Deutche Bank, is that what you meant to say? Because multiple Deutche Bank employees said they did rely on Trump’s Statement of Financial Condition to be accurate and they did rely on them to assess his net worth.

And the judge pretty much destroyed the worthless disclaimer. He said in short, your worthless disclaimer is worthless, it doesn’t give you permission to lie about your assets, and the fact that Deutche Bank didn’t catch it doesn’t make it ok.

“Thus, the "worthless clause" does not say what defendants say it says, does not rise to the level of an enforceable disclaimer, and cannot be used to insulate fraud as to facts peculiarly within defendants' knowledge, even vis-a-vis sophisticated recipients.”

From: Nyati
22-Feb-24
This whole thing is BS It’s nothing more than naming a name then finding a crime. Russia and banana republics have perfected it thru the years. Using a law in a way it’s never been used before shows that . This will come back to bite NY. People and their money has already been leaving NY and this will probably accelerate that especially with high finance and construction. Hochul said it this week by saying if your name isn’t Donald Trump then you don’t have to worry about anything.

99.9% of people have overvalued their worth at some point in their lives.

From: Will
22-Feb-24
I'm cool with people who break laws being held accountable. It's a good thing. In this case, that concept applies.

As for NYC losing business because of this... NYC will be just fine. NYC wont even blink.

From: Beendare
22-Feb-24
Meanwhile in Wills NYC, a little background on the $10,000 to each illegal....oh but let's focus on Trump;

BREAKING: City Council calls for an INVESTIGATION of Mayor Adams plan to give illegals $10,000 Debit Cards.

The $53 million contract would give, Mobility Capital Finance, who the NY Mayor touts as 'Minority Owned' lots of fees for services, including:

- $125,000 one-time set-up fee, - $250,000 in annual management fees - $1.5 million for the first $50 million handed out - $2.5 million for the next $100 million.

No ID check required, No Fraud control and No Restrictions.

Councilmember Gale Brewer wants to investigate the Mayors connection to the firm and why the city issued a $53 million no-bid contract without seeing if it could get a better deal.

According to the contract, the most a card can have is $10,000, but cards will be refilled EVERY FOUR WEEKS.

The mayor insisted that part of the allure of the company was that it was a minority-owned firm.

From: Nyati
22-Feb-24
TIA's Taxpayer Burden™ measurement incorporates all assets and liabilities, including retirement obligations. New York City only has $90.6 billion of assets available to pay bills totaling $268.2 billion. Because New York City doesn't have enough money to pay its bills, it has a -$177.6 billion financial hole.

Yeah, looks like NYC is doing just fine

From: Mint
22-Feb-24

Mint's Link
The Judge had an agenda and we all knew where this case was going to land. They twisted this law around to fit one person, Trump and it was only used because he is running for President. Selective prosecution and don't take my word for it at the link Jonathon Turley a liberal Georgetown Law Professor states the facts that anyone without TDS would plainly see. I would love for the banks to take a compilation instead of an audit since it would save my firm about $700K but I'm not Trump.

From: bigeasygator
22-Feb-24
I read that whole article, Mint and he doesn’t even come close to addressing the actual fraud that Trump committed. This is not simply overvaluing an asset. This is blatantly lying about an asset to make it more valuable.

Saying my home is worth $250/sf when comps are going for $240/sf is overvaluing it. Saying my house is a 5 bedroom, 3 bath 5,000 sqft home when it is a 2 bedroom, 1 bath 1,000 sqft home is fraud.

From: Nyati
22-Feb-24
First, the perpetrator has to provide a false statement as a material fact. Second, the perpetrator had to have known that the statement was untrue. Third, the perpetrator had to have intended to deceive the victim. Fourth, the victim has to demonstrate that they relied on the false statement.

2 out of the 4 criteria for fraud requires a victim. There were no victims. Even the banks (which would be the victims) said they weren’t victims and would do business with Trump in the future because it was financially beneficial for them to do so.

Its like they tried and convicted him of murder despite no one getting murdered

From: bigeasygator
22-Feb-24

bigeasygator's Link
2 out of the 4 criteria for fraud requires a victim. There were no victims.

The judge disagreed. It was successfully argued that the banks were indeed victims who were intentionally deceived and who relied on false statements from Trump. And the law under which he was tried allows the Attorney General to take action for repeated and persistent fraud on behalf of the people of New York.

Whenever any person shall engage in repeated fraudulent or illegal acts or otherwise demonstrate persistent fraud or illegality in the carrying on, conducting or transaction of business, the attorney general may apply, in the name of the people of the state of New York, to the supreme court of the state of New York, on notice of five days, for an order enjoining the continuance of such business activity or of any fraudulent or illegal acts, directing restitution and damages and, in an appropriate case, cancelling any certificate filed under and by virtue of the provisions of section four hundred forty of the former penal law? ?3 or section one hundred thirty of the general business law, and the court may award the relief applied for or so much thereof as it may deem proper. ?The word “fraud” or “fraudulent” as used herein shall include any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions. ?The term “persistent fraud” or “illegality” as used herein shall include continuance or carrying on of any fraudulent or illegal act or conduct. ?The term “repeated” as used herein shall include repetition of any separate and distinct fraudulent or illegal act, or conduct which affects more than one person. ?Notwithstanding any law to the contrary, all monies recovered or obtained under this subdivision by a state agency or state official or employee acting in their official capacity shall be subject to subdivision eleven of section four of the state finance law.

I always appreciate perspective coming out of Cato. Good article attached covering aspects of the verdict and the consequences. In short, there are problematic aspects to the law and the fine, but it’s hard to see what is “legally wrong” with the ruling.

From: bigeasygator
22-Feb-24

bigeasygator's Link
Another good read that was linked from the Cato Institute article above. Specifically interesting is the discussion around the New York law under which he was charged. The author, a law professor, compares the law to drunk driving laws - namely, drunk driving on its own is a victimless crime if the driver makes it home safely. But the laws are there to discourage potentially harmful behavior, and he says the NY law is meant to function in the same manner.

From: Nyati
22-Feb-24
Then it’s a stupid law and the opinion of a Trump hating political hack judge just shows this is a politically motivated trial. Again, give me a name and I’ll find a crime. To use a law in a way it has never been used before to go after someone that your whole campaign was based on getting is a travesty and abuse of our legal system. Prosecutors should run on fighting crime not going after specific individuals. Judges should render judgment based on merit of case and not based on their political biases.

The comparison to drunk driving sounds like the reasoning of a 5th grader. A drunk driver can kill an innocent unsuspecting person or persons. We have strict definitions of what an impaired driver is. The banks are not unsuspecting. They have teams of bankers, accountants, and lawyers whose whole job is processing and evaluating loan risk. To equate the two as equal is shallow and naive whether it’s a law professor or not. But not surprising . SCOTUS Judge Brown couldn’t define what a woman is either. So maybe they’re just not that smart or they’re so politically blind to reality they lose common sense.

Think of a situation where it was successfully argued ( in the opinion of a Trump hating biased judge) that the banks were a victims while at the same time the banks were arguing that they were not victims and even wanted to continue to do business with Trump because they felt they were low risk highly profitable loans. Sounds like an episode of The Twilight Zone.

It was rigged from the beginning and 100% of people with common sense and not afflicted with TDS sees it for what it is . Even the ladies on the view are going whoa, this is excessive.

From: bigeasygator
22-Feb-24
To use a law in a way it has never been used before to go after someone that your whole campaign was based on getting is a travesty and abuse of our legal system

The article I posted above refuted the notion that the law has never been applied in this way.

“Steve repeatedly claims that this law has never been used "that way." I'm not sure what "that way" means. But based on a quick Westlaw search, I do see opinions about other equitable enforcement actions that Attorney General Letitia James brought under this law against other businesses. In just the last few months, for example, opionions include People by James v. Richmond Capital Group LLC, 80 Misc.3d 1213(A) (N.Y. 2023) (enforcement action against loan sharks, ordering a long list of equitable remedies including canceling contracts); People by James v. Mashinsky, 79 Misc.3d 1237(A) (N.Y. 2023) (refusing to dismiss action brought by James against CEO of crypto company based on alleged scheme to defraud investors by inducing them, through false and misleading statements, to deposit their digital assets with his now-bankrupt company); James v. Scores, 79 Misc.3d 1118 (N.Y. 2023) (enjoining towing company from engaging in predatory towing practices).”

The comparison to drunk driving sounds like the reasoning of a 5th grader

Well, it wasn’t. It was a law professor.

We have strict definitions of what an impaired driver is

And we have accounting and valuation standards. What’s your point?

They have teams of bankers, accountants, and lawyers whose whole job is processing and evaluating loan risk

Still doesn’t give someone free rein to lie to the banks. It’s like saying “no, it’s fine to steal someone’s identity because companies have a way to detect fraud.” It’s absurd.

From: Nyati
22-Feb-24
My point is that banks have accountants and valuation standards that determine risk. They knew who they were dealing with. Trump wasn’t trying to impersonate anyone or steal someone’s identity. In fact I’m quite sure Trump wanted them to know who they were dealing with and the banks were probably happy to deal with him. They like clients that pay bills on time and don’t default on their loans.

You can have a pair of tennis shoes from former NBA players . They are identical except one pair was from an unknown rookie that didn’t get to play and left NBA . No one knows who they are. The other pair was worn by Michael Jordan . They are identical in every other way. Which pair is going to bring the most at auction ? Jordan’s because of fame and brand behind it. That doesn’t show up on routine evaluations . In fact they don’t know the value until they’re sold. They may think they’re worth 500,000 but might sell for 300,000 or may sell for a million. In reality the “cost” is about the same. What is different is the amount someone is willing to pay based on who wore them. What did the Trump brand add to the valuation of the properties? The answer is what someone is willing to pay and not the “accessed “ value at the courthouse. I don’t see where any of that was taken into consideration of property values that Engoran decided the valuation of

And just because someone is a law professor doesn’t automatically mean they’re right. I’ve know board certified physicians that make bad judgment decisions. Point is , being a law professor, or a cardiac surgeon doesn’t automatically equate to being right all the time . You would hope they would but it doesn’t always happen.

From: Grey Ghost
22-Feb-24
Yes officer, I drove home drunk off my ass, but I didn't cause harm to anyone, so I'm not guilty of a crime. Is that the Trump defense? Too funny.

From: bigeasygator
22-Feb-24
lol at Nyati saying the law professor’s drunk driving analogy was ill constructed and then breaking out that shoe one.

But I’ll do a shoe analogy. I say I have Michael Jordan’s rookie shoes and I claim they’re worth $1 million so I’m worth $1 million. Except I only own a picture of his shoes. I mean, people have paid $1 million for a picture, right? That’s a better analogy to what Trump did.

And what did Trump’s “brand” add to the value of the assets? Don’t know, but I know it didn’t magically add 20,000 square feet to his penthouse or 2,500 residences to his golf course. The issue isn’t with brand value, it’s with bogus valuations built off of completely fabricated information.

From: Will tell
23-Feb-24
I alway understood the value of something depends if your selling or buying.

From: Mint
23-Feb-24
Did Letitia James campaign on going after any other person other than Trump? Has this law been used to go after the rest of the real estate companies that inflate their values? The example I keep stating which you continue to ignore is that EVERY real estate company or owner list the square feet of rentable space with a built in loss factor. You never get the space that is advertised or in the lease agreement. How that not considered fraud? Why did gov Hochul have to go on the radio and put out statements basically saying this law isn't going to be used for against someone else. Jonathon Turley, a moderate liberal who has a great track record and also a Law Professor states his case very well in the article. We shall see how the appeals go. Next I'm sure you are going to say Trumps classified documents case is completely different from Biden's. case.

From: bigeasygator
23-Feb-24
How that not considered fraud?

Probably because the space actually physically exists. It’s the non-usable space for a tenant - space taken up by common lobbies, HVAC equipment, etc. But it’s physically real space.

And we’ve already been over the multitude of ways Trump and Biden’s document cases are different.

23-Feb-24
the devil is always in the details mint.

for an example, did trump say his golf course had 2500 homes...or did he say his golf course property had room for 2500 residences?

i know in my area of the world...vacant acreage goes for $2000-$3000 per acre. so an 80 acre parcel would sell for somewhere between $150000 and $300000. however, if its considered "view property" that overlooks lake michigan, and can be developed for residential use...that same 80 acres can sell for $3 - $5 million or more...sometimes much more. therefore...that would be the value whether any residences or any improvements have even been started...let alone completed.

From: bigeasygator
23-Feb-24

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
for an example, did trump say his golf course had 2500 homes...or did he say his golf course property had room for 2500 residences?

All the details are in the judges ruling.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, the 2014-2018 SFCs valued Aberdeen not only as if Donald Trump had permission to develop 2500 private year-round residences, which he did not, but also as if those residences had already been built, and the SFCs and supporting data failed to account for any development costs associated with making the hypothetical residences a reality.

23-Feb-24
you dont seem to understand that land isnt always valued based upon what it currently is...or even what the current owner intends for it. it is valued on what it could be.

in my earlier example of my friend who sold his residence and acreage to walmart. he had no intention of ever developing the land...nor at the time he owned it was it even zoned for what it was ultimately used for. the "value" of his land was many multiples more than what it was currently being used or even zoned for.

what difference would anything trump had to say about the valuations have made? the judge determined he was guilty of "fraud" before the trial ever started.

From: bigeasygator
23-Feb-24
you dont seem to understand that land isnt always valued based upon what it currently is

I 1,000% understand that. That certain land is more valuable to certain people for various reasons. And that valuations can change for all types of reasons. Again, for the umpteenth time, that is not at all what happened here.

Trump lied about what the properties were, not what they could be. It’s really not that hard. In the golf course example, he lied about the amount of development that had been approved, and he based his valuation on if the development had already occurred.

23-Feb-24
so again i will ask...

if my friend who sold his home to walmart about 20 years ago had gone to the bank for a loan...and said on his financial statement that his property was worth a million dollars...even if he had no intention of ever developing it...and even though it wasnt currently approved for such development...he would have been committing fraud?

From: Will
23-Feb-24
I thought we were talking about Trump and some of his stolen money. No?

Somehow every court he seems to enter (for decades) seems to be rigged against him. It's weird. I've never seen a similar thing. Where someone so consistently has legitimate grievances about the world being out to take him down and proof of it in the form of rigged courts. It must be hard to be such a yuge victim all the time.

If NY is in the pooper in 5 years because all the businesses ran away after this, Ill hop on here and be flogged happily.

Right now, Ill take my chances.

From: DanaC
23-Feb-24
"Somehow every court he seems to enter (for decades) seems to be rigged against him. It's weird."

Or maybe, possibly, (could it be???) he actually is a criminal scumbag and the long arm of the law has him by the collar.

No, of course not, he is the savior of America and the forces of evil are conspiring against him. That would be the most **logical ** explanation. LMAO!!!

(And of course, I have 'TDS'. LMAO again >;-) )

From: bigeasygator
23-Feb-24
he would have been committing fraud?

These hypotheticals require so much more information to be able to assess. What was this “friend’s” valuation based on? What assumptions went into him believing his land was worth millions at the time?

To compare it to Trump, if your friend used misinformation to arrive at his valuation - for example claiming it is zoned differently than what it is, or saying the land has 4x the acreage than what is there - and uses those valuations to deceive a bank and secure more favorable financing terms, then yes, he very likely committed fraud.

From: bluedog
23-Feb-24
He's a two bit grifter... buy your $400 gold tennis shoes and frame your Trump University Diploma. ;)

From: RK
23-Feb-24
That's funny Bluedog and probably pretty close to right

My son bought 5 pair of those shoes. Sold two pair for over $4K each. Seeing where they go from here before he sells the others. I bet a diploma from that university would be worth a lot to people that collect that stuff

Silver cloud to mist things if you look hard enough

From: bluedog
23-Feb-24
Crazy ole world ain't it RK ? LOL Wonder if those golden shoes will ever even be delivered? Won't matter to your son .. smooth move, I like it. ;)

From: RK
23-Feb-24
Can't answer all of those things BD. When my son told me I was out with clients trying to kill some pigs and axis deer. I just told him good job and I want to hear the details when I finish up this run

From: Mint
23-Feb-24
"Probably because the space actually physically exists. It’s the non-usable space for a tenant - space taken up by common lobbies, HVAC equipment, etc. But it’s physically real space."

I can tell you from experience that is wrong on all the buildings in NY that I have been involved with. The loss factor would be under 10%. The landlord or brokers don't even bring it up when showing the space to a new tenant. I'm sure Ms. James will be on it soon. But if she goes after a big Democrat real estate investor in NYC using the same law that was used against Trump then I'll believe this wasn't Lawfare.

From: RK
23-Feb-24
How can the judge make Trump pay before the appeal I've never seen that in any court case that I was close enough to take an interest in

From: Grey Ghost
23-Feb-24
RK, as I understand it, the Judge isn't making Trump pay before the appeal. But he will have to pay 9% interest for every day the fine isn't paid, if he loses the appeal.

From: Will
23-Feb-24
GG - correct.

Dana - Glad you saw what I was getting at. You might be on to something.

23-Feb-24
“Fanny” and her boyfriend are busted with cell phone gps data.

They both lied under oath.

Hopefully they both get disbarred. And hopefully Latitia in NY is next

From: RK
23-Feb-24
GG. Thanks.

23-Feb-24
I wander how many of these tds fellas have reported every penny they’ve ever made? The us government has been borrowing money against the guaranteed tax revenue of the citizenship. So, I got to wandering if these same people would pass the same audit if the feds ever pick up where this judge left off and goes over board to prove a point?

I mean a crook is a crook. Right? To hear the big mouth gator, his buddy the grey goose, and the bowsite clown Dana, Lying about assets for potential gain is illegal regardless of borrowing or paying. Right?

I’m just glad to know that the law is equal. And, that it prosecutes equally. And, I’m glad the sensical among us keeps stressing it doesn’t matter who it is. Lying is lying.

How bout it begmiester? Matt the mythical building designer? Dana the clown? You boys good honest people or deceiving scumbags like Trump?

Funny thing is, I’m guessing that doesn’t apply in some peoples eyes.

From: DanaC
23-Feb-24
Justin, I do my taxes honestly and pay whatever I have to. Truth is so much simpler than lying - a principal that precious Donnie has never learned

From: RK
23-Feb-24
So TB1. You have no deductions! You just blindly turn over your income to the government. Short form?

Yep really makes sense now. You are a leftist. Let's drop the pretense of you ever being conservative, and waiting on a good conservative candidate.

Too funny but predictable

From: bigeasygator
23-Feb-24
Unfortunately I’m just a boring W-2 wage earner with the vast majority of my investments tied up in tax deferred accounts. All my income is reported to the IRS so definitely not worth risking it by trying to hide something. I don’t take the standard deduction, but all of those are pretty boring like SALT and mortgage interest. Not saying I haven’t made mistakes, just saying my finances are nowhere near as complex as someone like DJT and I’m not too worried about anyone coming to put me under the microscope. Also, taxation is theft :)

From: DanaC
23-Feb-24
RK, fixed income, IRA/401-k withdrawals. In other words, retired. Taxes are simple. ;-)

"Also, taxation is theft :) "

If you have a proper, limited government, (which we surely do not) you could finance it in other ways. However, the 16th Amendment destroyed that possibility.

23-Feb-24
Good for you guys. You are good people.

24-Feb-24
"I mean a crook is a crook. Right? To hear the big mouth gator, his buddy the grey goose, and the bowsite clown Dana, Lying about assets for potential gain is illegal regardless of borrowing or paying. Right?

i think the answer to your question might be found in other threads. take the "Fani Willis is a Crook" thread as an example. when its anyone other than trump...its just "the first rule capitalism"..."getting what the market will bear"... and "charging as much as you can get is good (and 'ethical') business."

24-Feb-24
Guys, I think we can have heated discussions. We all have our known positions. No one here is going to be swayed by another Member calling them names. It’s easy to do in the heat of the discussion.

I’m sure if we were sitting around a fire with a beer. We would be more civil.

Dana, and BEG just posted that they think taxation is theft. Can we at least give them some credit for that very conservative statement. That is not a liberals stance.

I disagree with them on politics but we can have a good discussion without getting personal or ugly

From: DanaC
24-Feb-24
More concisely I think that _involuntary_ taxation is wrong. But our country is not at a place, philosophically, where we can have realistic discussions about alternate financing. (This is not my 'original' thought but something Ayn Rand pointed out back in the early 70s. yeah, I'm that old ;-) )

24-Feb-24
"Dana, and BEG just posted that they think taxation is theft. Can we at least give them some credit for that very conservative statement."

i get what you mean about the name calling but pretty sure "taxation is theft" is a "libertarian" tenet...not a "conservative" one.

24-Feb-24
Trey Gowdy made a good point. He would not want Fani and Wade removed from the case.

He would rather be prosecuted by incompetent real estate or personal injury attorneys than a competent prosecutor.

From: bigeasygator
24-Feb-24

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo

bigeasygator's Link
pretty sure "taxation is theft" is a "libertarian" tenet...not a "conservative" one.

Well, those concepts used to be indistinguishable. Conservative used to mean small a hands off government and letting the markets decide.

I came across a website the other day called the political compass. You fill out a quiz (takes about 10 minutes) and you get put on a matrix reflective of an economic and non-economic (ie, social) spectrum. The site seemed to suggest that part of the reason they started the compass was because simple words like liberal and conservative and left and right do not truly reflect the complexities of both people and countries when it comes to their beliefs and systems of government.

I contemplated starting a post here encouraging people to do it and post results, as I’ve maintained for a long time that (despite me speaking against a lot of posts), we’re all likely similar in more ways than we’re different. But I don’t really like starting political posts, just responding to them :)

Anyway, RTCG’s comment a regarding the concept of libertarian vs. conservative reminded me of it so I thought I’d share it.

Back to your regularly scheduled program…

From: bigeasygator
24-Feb-24

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
And for anyone that has seen the Nolan Chart, it basically addresses a similar concept.

From: bigeasygator
24-Feb-24

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
Let’s try that again…

24-Feb-24
I’m all over the map. On different topics Definitely not monolithic

From: bluedog
24-Feb-24

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bluedog's embedded Photo

From: bigeasygator
24-Feb-24
Basically neighbors, bluedog lol Just over the fence

From: bluedog
24-Feb-24
Surprise surprise ;)

From: Mint
24-Feb-24
There is one thing I've learned from doing thousands of personal and business tax returns when I worked for a public accounting firm, liberals are "all for the rich paying their fair share" etc. but never with their own tax returns. Suddenly then they become very conservative about paying too much in taxes.

From: DanaC
25-Feb-24

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DanaC's embedded Photo
Just my opinion, some of the questions should have had a 'neither agree nor disagree' option. (And I really expected to be further toward the 'libertarian' side...)

From: Beendare
25-Feb-24
Oh Cmon, who doesn’t want the Dem puppet masters calling the shots for Biden to give our tax dollars to; $1.5 Million to Pakistan for Gender studies Tens of Billions to Ukraine and Israel to keep warring Billions for “climate change” Billions to buy votes of people with Student loans.

Its funny Biden states, “ I did That” in regard to Student loan forgiveness when in reality its US taxpayers that did it…and the entire US citizenry that suffers when deficit spending ramps up inflation.

Many in the US are ignorant to the fact, the US spends more than they bring in- then they print money- weakening the purchasing power of our paycheck and savings- INFLATION.

its an important distinction between Conservatives and Liberals; conservatives think money and respect should be earned, Libs think they are owed and the gov should facilitate these freebies.

I was at a recent Rent control and extending eviction meeting (Ca) and the liberal consensus was housing is a god given right. Nevermind that the landlord still has to pay taxes, mortgage and expenses- these liberals think should get a free ride, its owed it to them.

In the areas with RC, its a downward spiral, prop values tank, tax rev drops along with city services- all policy driven.

From: Beendare
28-Feb-24

Beendare's embedded Photo
Beendare's embedded Photo
A little bit of digging on Leticia James public expenses is revealing. This is a screen shot of one segment from the link- there is a lot more.

Link has a massive list of where she spent her campaign $$$ and public funds...try not to puke when you see it

28-Feb-24
Shocker, a state employee that spends like a rock star. Hopefully the same investigation team turned loose on “Fawny” is turned loose on Latitia

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