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Baiting got banned
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
be still 29-Feb-24
PushCoArcher 29-Feb-24
csalem 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
Catscratch 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
KB 29-Feb-24
Catscratch 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
Ambush 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
WV Mountaineer 29-Feb-24
Ambush 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
PushCoArcher 29-Feb-24
be still 29-Feb-24
Bowfreak 29-Feb-24
4nolz@work 29-Feb-24
Thornton 29-Feb-24
Dale06 29-Feb-24
Slate 29-Feb-24
KB 29-Feb-24
Canepole 29-Feb-24
Thornton 29-Feb-24
Bowfreak 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
be still 29-Feb-24
PushCoArcher 29-Feb-24
Dale06 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
Old School 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
PushCoArcher 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
Old School 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
Old School 29-Feb-24
Thornton 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
Thornton 29-Feb-24
Thornton 29-Feb-24
be still 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
be still 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
be still 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
Shug 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
KsRancher 29-Feb-24
Bowfreak 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
be still 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
Canepole 29-Feb-24
Genesis 29-Feb-24
Mike B 29-Feb-24
WV Mountaineer 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
squirrel 29-Feb-24
Bowfreak 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
Mike B 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
sitO 29-Feb-24
WV Mountaineer 29-Feb-24
FORESTBOWS 29-Feb-24
Mike B 29-Feb-24
Slate 01-Mar-24
be still 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
be still 01-Mar-24
TonyBear 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
sitO 01-Mar-24
70lbDraw 01-Mar-24
be still 01-Mar-24
sitO 01-Mar-24
be still 01-Mar-24
be still 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
KB 01-Mar-24
Thornton 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
csalem 01-Mar-24
KB 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
Thornton 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
sitO 01-Mar-24
RK 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
sitO 01-Mar-24
KB 01-Mar-24
RK 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
be still 01-Mar-24
be still 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
sitO 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
be still 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
sitO 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
sitO 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
KB 01-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 01-Mar-24
sitO 01-Mar-24
Mike B 01-Mar-24
TonyBear 02-Mar-24
Mule Power 02-Mar-24
Missouribreaks 02-Mar-24
Jimmyjumpup 02-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 02-Mar-24
Builder07 02-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 02-Mar-24
sitO 02-Mar-24
Groundhunter 02-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 02-Mar-24
KB 02-Mar-24
sitO 02-Mar-24
Ambush 02-Mar-24
sitO 02-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 02-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 02-Mar-24
sitO 02-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 02-Mar-24
sitO 02-Mar-24
pirogue 02-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 02-Mar-24
PushCoArcher 02-Mar-24
Ambush 02-Mar-24
Corax_latrans 02-Mar-24
bigswivle 02-Mar-24
pirogue 02-Mar-24
sitO 02-Mar-24
Ambush 02-Mar-24
sitO 02-Mar-24
KB 02-Mar-24
Shoeminator42 02-Mar-24
Mule Power 02-Mar-24
sitO 02-Mar-24
pirogue 02-Mar-24
Mule Power 02-Mar-24
sitO 02-Mar-24
Mule Power 02-Mar-24
sitO 02-Mar-24
Mule Power 02-Mar-24
be still 03-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 04-Mar-24
be still 04-Mar-24
APauls 04-Mar-24
Slate 04-Mar-24
be still 04-Mar-24
RK 04-Mar-24
RK 04-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 04-Mar-24
be still 05-Mar-24
Slate 05-Mar-24
Mule Power 05-Mar-24
Catscratch 05-Mar-24
WV Mountaineer 05-Mar-24
Slate 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Native Okie 05-Mar-24
APauls 05-Mar-24
Slate 05-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Catscratch 05-Mar-24
Ambush 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
bowwild 05-Mar-24
Ambush 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Ambush 05-Mar-24
Native Okie 05-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Ambush 05-Mar-24
csalem 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Ambush 05-Mar-24
Thornton 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Ambush 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Ambush 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Ambush 05-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Thornton 05-Mar-24
Ambush 05-Mar-24
Thornton 05-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Charlie Rehor 05-Mar-24
RK 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 05-Mar-24
RK 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
be still 05-Mar-24
RK 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Ambush 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
be still 05-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 05-Mar-24
sitO 05-Mar-24
Charlie Rehor 06-Mar-24
T-rex 06-Mar-24
be still 06-Mar-24
RK 06-Mar-24
Mule Power 06-Mar-24
WV Mountaineer 06-Mar-24
sitO 06-Mar-24
Thornton 06-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 06-Mar-24
IdyllwildArcher 07-Mar-24
Thornton 07-Mar-24
Boreal 07-Mar-24
bowwild 07-Mar-24
KSflatlander 07-Mar-24
Ambush 07-Mar-24
crestedbutte 07-Mar-24
APauls 07-Mar-24
sitO 07-Mar-24
Slate 07-Mar-24
KB 07-Mar-24
Ambush 07-Mar-24
BoggsBowhunts 07-Mar-24
sitO 07-Mar-24
Ambush 07-Mar-24
KSflatlander 07-Mar-24
Ambush 07-Mar-24
sitO 07-Mar-24
KSflatlander 07-Mar-24
TMac 07-Mar-24
Bowfreak 07-Mar-24
KB 07-Mar-24
Ambush 07-Mar-24
sitO 07-Mar-24
Charlie Rehor 07-Mar-24
sitO 07-Mar-24
be still 07-Mar-24
Thornton 07-Mar-24
RK 07-Mar-24
sitO 07-Mar-24
FORESTBOWS 07-Mar-24
RK 07-Mar-24
sitO 07-Mar-24
Bowfreak 07-Mar-24
RK 07-Mar-24
sitO 07-Mar-24
RK 07-Mar-24
sitO 07-Mar-24
KsRancher 08-Mar-24
WV Mountaineer 08-Mar-24
Thornton 08-Mar-24
Thornton 08-Mar-24
Thornton 08-Mar-24
Thornton 08-Mar-24
Thornton 08-Mar-24
Matte 08-Mar-24
be still 08-Mar-24
IdyllwildArcher 08-Mar-24
Buckdeer 08-Mar-24
KB 08-Mar-24
Buckdeer 08-Mar-24
KB 08-Mar-24
Ambush 08-Mar-24
Catscratch 09-Mar-24
Ambush 09-Mar-24
From: be still
29-Feb-24
I agree with Boggs…funny how a guy from Mississippi wants to discuss something that is of importance and definitely related to hunting but nope it gets banned.

Y’all that are on the fence about baiting just follow the money trail. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if some money was involved just right here. It’s very clear that the people that doesn’t want corn banned is not thinking about what’s good for the wildlife and the future for our kids. If you disagree just look at what just happened on here and this is supposed to be a forum to discuss wildlife topics…pretty sad day.

From: PushCoArcher
29-Feb-24
Or maybe it was because the OP thread about cwd regs got completely hijacked and turned into yet another argument about baiting. You know the same debate that's been had a hundred times and never changes anyone's mind. Or maybe because two posters were telling each other where to sh!+.

From: csalem
29-Feb-24
be still. How would money be involved here with removing a thread? It looked to me like that thread had evolved to a personal argument between two people rather than a discussion on the pros and cons of actual baiting and how that relates to the spread of CWD

29-Feb-24
I apologize! Im going to try to not let that happen anymore!

From: Catscratch
29-Feb-24
I think the point is money often overrides what's right. If baiting harms wildlife (not just deer) then what would inspire an outdoorsman (many of which claim to be stewards of the land) to not want baiting to go away? When this is the case often times outfitting, leasing, guiding, land ownership, etc are involved. Either making money or spending money to hunt deer often encourages baiting. Not trying to put words in bestills mouth, but I think this is where he's coming from.

29-Feb-24
I think the Deer population is up in Kansas over the last 20 years. Maybe im wrong.

From: KB
29-Feb-24
You’re wrong with regard to a very large swath of northern and western Kansas.

From: Catscratch
29-Feb-24
I think it's a regional thing forest. Where I live I saw a ton more deer in the 80's and 90's than I do now. However, I still have good numbers. But, it's pretty apparent that some area's not far from me have had a dramatic drop in populations recently.

29-Feb-24
700,000 deer in Kansas. I think it was way less in the 80s and 90s. But there was more places to hunt for the average guy. No doubt it must of been awesome hunting back then. Maybe the best ever anywhere. Same as Colorado.

From: Ambush
29-Feb-24
It’s pretty simple to me.

If baiting is bad for wildlife, then it should be banned across the board, public and private, statewide, period.

Very often people jump into that debate with all their “my land, my decision” indignation. Then you find out that they have a little piece of baited ground and they really just don’t want competition from the public land hunters.

All the bigger QDM guys don’t want the public baiting, because one of those smuck’s or his kid might kill one of “their” managed bucks.

The guy sitting in the middle of a huge chunk of private ag land, shooting bucks that use the same trails and funnels to get to the crops doesn’t want baiting either for the same reason as the QDM guys.

And then I guess the researchers better define what the smallest size food plot can be to be safe.

And as far as “follow the money” I’m amazed how often that trail leads back to the people making tons of money on QDM. Much of the “research” is funded by them too and many times the “experts” cited have ties back to QDM.

I’m all for guys improving and hunting their properties. It’s a purpose and pleasure all on its own and can bring great satisfaction. Sometimes more than killing a big buck!

But the #MeOnly movement is strong here.

From: sitO
29-Feb-24
You listened to the Primos podcast Rod, and you know the detrimental effects baiting has on not only deer but numerous other wild animals. It's a no-brainer quite honestly, do any of you actually need bait to kill a deer?

Others are driven by greed, and the unregulated outfitters in our State are the absolute worst kind of money grubbers you can imagine.

29-Feb-24
It’s a pretty simple concept. Humans have learned if you eat and use the restroom in the same place, like your water supply, your kitchen, etc…, somebody is going to get sick. Same with all animals.

I’ve got no problems with people who bait. But, there’s no denying it affects on wildlife.

Turkey numbers have plummeted since baiting was legalized in WV. Is it connected? In my mind it is.

Just do what suits you and let others do the same. But, I don’t set still watching tv for hours at a time. So, setting still and watching a pile of corn isn’t high on my to do list either.

To each their own. It’s just boring as heck to me. And, it’s counter productive to actually killing any nature deer in my experience.

From: Ambush
29-Feb-24
".....do any of you actually need bait to kill a deer?". No Kyle, you probably don't. I'm just more about leveling the playing field. It's always easy for the "Haves" to tell the "Have-nots" how they should be happy with their lot. But I guess life is not fair in many ways.

I'm not a whitetail hunter. The few I've shot were mostly from public land, in Alberta farmland, from tree stands set up by my nephew. It was fun. But I'd rather endure the pain and misery of five unsuccessful northern mountain, back pack goat hunts than be emersed in the whitetail hunting industry that I see on display. Its just as polarized as the abortion or gender debates with everybody swallowing anything form anybody from anywhere that bolsters their bias.

Yes, I listened to the Primos podcast. Then I back trailed the participants. Follow the money or industry connection.

From watching the CWD research and mitigation efforts for years now, mostly western Canada, and then observing actual outcomes, I've come to some conclusions (beliefs) of my own, but I'm always open to new scientific information.

But I think the epitome of hypocrisy (and they post here) is the guy that is spitting mad on a whitetail bating thread and denouncing anybody that does it as a friggin useless moron, then starts a thread about his upcoming baited spring bear hunt. A hunt where he sits in a stand put up by somebody else, hunts over bait placed by somebody else then when asked says ".. well it would be really hard to kill one otherwise"

But I guess asking whitetail hunters to be honest and respectful is like asking the same of all the Karens in life.

I'm happy I don't take whitetails seriously.

From: sitO
29-Feb-24
Not sure who you're referring to, don't really care, it's not me. You're saying you "back trailed" the podcast participants? Are you trying to imply that the Biologists stand to gain by referencing the fact that corn piles are detrimental? That's laughable.

Baiters constantly, and repeatedly, try to change the narrative to justify their shortcomings...just don't work.

From: PushCoArcher
29-Feb-24
The most telling part of all this is how Forest apologized for his part like a man. Well said Ambush!

From: be still
29-Feb-24
Csalem I’m pretty sure in this world there’s been quite a few times where somebody calls somebody and offers them money to keep their mouth shut. Do I really think that’s what happened here…no I don’t. Would it surprise if it did…no it wouldn’t. More than likely the moderator didn’t want to hear about it. If it was for the curse word then that’s definitely not fair cause I’ve seen the owner here write the same word on here before. Just telling someone they could fall in their own crap is very mild from what I’ve seen on here.

As far as follow the money trail…if you would’ve been in the commission meeting up there you would get it. Outfitters and feed owners was plenty mad up there and throwing out threats like no other.

Talking about science. I’ve heard that word brought up quite a bit lately. Like I told them up there. If y’all knew I had a deadly disease that was mainly transferred by saliva y’all wouldn’t want to drink after me. If I had a cup of water that I just had taken a drink from y’all wouldn’t be saying…show me the science. Y’all would have more common sense than that or least I hope y’all would.

I can’t make fun of people that bait being from the state I reside in even though I try sometimes in fun. Like the gentleman said above though there is all kinds of diseases that can be brought to these big corn piles. Nearly every critter out there is wallowing around in it crapping in it as they’re eating. You can’t sit here and tell me that’s healthy for deer and all the wildlife there.

Just this year an old deer I was interested in got up from his bed. He looked way drawn up and skinny with a sick look. Got up and took a crap and laid right back down. Later I went over there to his bed and his crap was a runny pile. Favored a cow when it has the runs. At the time I’m thinking maybe he just had rutted super hard cause it was around the 1st part of December. Just learned about a week ago next door they had gigantic piles of corn out and this guy sends me a pic of that deer at one of those piles a couple days before. Y’all can figure the rest out.

From: Bowfreak
29-Feb-24
I love it when people state their opinion as fact. It is this way because I believe it, so deal with it.

I wonder if biologists in Wyoming consider their feed grounds detrimental to elk? Montana may not like it, Idaho may not like it, but Wyoming evidently thinks it is the best approach for their elk herd.

From: 4nolz@work
29-Feb-24
Has baiting been scientifically PROVEN to be detrimental? Or is it an assumed unproven/suspected factor.

From: Thornton
29-Feb-24
Interesting to hear nonresidents give their opinion when they had no idea what is was like before the damned baiting started.

In the 90's we had many more deer than we do now, hence the antlerless season pushed by insurance companies to reduce deer/vehicle collisions. One of those seasons, I personally shot 5 does and 2 bucks with everything from recurve, to blackpowder, to high powered rifle. The 2nd buck was on a leftover permit they now give to unthankful nonresidents.

Baiting has single handedly redirected decades old deer movements that caused mature bucks to travel miles in search of does and food. Bucks that once ranged 5 miles giving many folks opportunities, now stay year round on smaller parcels. As I mentioned last season, I ran into an outfitter that leases prime ground I've hunted next to for 28 years. He bragged "his booners" never leave his two sections because of the tons of feed he puts on the ground.

I absolutely hate it, and I view any buck killed over feed as an animal trained like livestock by a lazy shooter that has zero skills.

From: Dale06
29-Feb-24
WVmountaineer , sorry to hear your turkey population has plummeted. Over the past 20 years I’ve bow hunted a lot for turkeys in South Dakota and Nebraska. Neither of those states allow baiting. Both states have seen the turkey population plummet. In my hunting travels, I’d estimate that the turkey population is down 75% or so in those states. And it’s not from baiting. I hope the cause for the turkey population plunge is determined and is fixable.

From: Slate
29-Feb-24
A thread started by a guy that STILL baits in the great state of Texas.

From: KB
29-Feb-24
Dale, Nebraska is full of bait sites. You just can’t hunt within 200yds of them. Some well know outfitters share many trail cam pics of deer with their noses buried in tubs or feeders. South Dakota also allows baiting/supplemental feeding during times of the year hunting seasons aren’t open. Is baiting the sole reason turkeys have dwindled in places, probably not. But it has been proven to have detrimental consequences with regard to nest success, diseases and increased predator interactions.

From: Canepole
29-Feb-24
Thorton, being from neighboring Okla my comment might fall on deaf ears to you but Kansas didn't allowing out of state residents to hunt until the second half of the 90's. As you mentioned the increase of the doe harvest could be another contributing factor to the decline of your states herd. Unfortunaly most states have experienced declines since the 1990's peaks. Since I didn't get what you meant by ungrateful nonresident's would you elaborate?

From: Thornton
29-Feb-24
The only reason I mentioned we have less deer now, is because Forrest made the statement that we did not. That is an incorrect statement on his part for the over all state. I went on to say that we had so many, they implemented the antlerless season. In my opinion, out numbers are fair in my part of the state. The NW and West are suffering though. Interestingly enough, those units with low densities now, were not targeted in the antlerless seasons the way that other units like 14, 12, 19, and 15 were/are. I have great disdain for wealthy nonresidents ("ungrateful") that buy and lease all our land and kick the locals off in the name of exclusive permission. I own my own stuff and have quite a bit of permission, but many of my friends have simply quit hunting, so be aware I'm not mad because I lost any of my spots. The least these guys could do is still allow some form of tresspass like fishing or coyote hunting.

From: Bowfreak
29-Feb-24
Thornton,

Do you care if I hunt your land? It is the least you could do.

29-Feb-24
All information i can find on whitetail deer population in Kansas has the last 5 years population way more then anytime in history.

From: be still
29-Feb-24
Slate I had a talk with my 19 yr old son about taking the feeder off of this place down here awhile back. He’s wasn’t quite ready to quit yet and I considered him a grown man so I left it there for him to hunt by if he wanted. Also had an older friend of mine in camp up there in Kansas asked when I was supposed to be leaving if he could put some corn out and since he’s old enough to be my father I thought I shouldn’t disrespect him.

Stating my opinion on baiting but still allow my friends especially older guys to hunt their own way is something I’m doing right now. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with it or that I have to sit over it. I bet my son will see the light one day when he really sits down and does some thinking about it. Right now he thinks about his girlfriend a lot.

From: PushCoArcher
29-Feb-24
Nice to see someone with the ability to show respect to others even if they disagree with them. That concept seems lost on some.

From: Dale06
29-Feb-24
Thanks KB for the clarification on Ne and SD baiting.

From: sitO
29-Feb-24
Do you mean respect like this William..."You showed your a$$ on this subject long ago sitO"?

Or this..."Well stop walking around without pants on"?

Kettle = black

P.S. The deer population in KS was estimated at 707k in 2021, and 699k in 2023...so math, along with writing/spelling are not things to scoff at?

From: Old School
29-Feb-24
I hope we don’t start managing whitetails based on a precipitous 1.1% decline in population over a 2 year snap shot.

I don’t hunt over bait, but not sure I see correlation with literally 2 data points. Those data points sure wouldn’t cause me to see the harm baiting is doing in Kansas - if the data I’m shown is a 1.1% decline from 2021 to 2023….

From: sitO
29-Feb-24
No, that's not the takeaway and you know this.

From: PushCoArcher
29-Feb-24
Sito ever heard you get what you give? You've shown time and again you have no respect for anyone who disagrees with you on baiting. Why would you expect to receive any? The first time you ever commented on one of my post was to tell me how "gross I believe was the word you used" a pic of a deer eating from a feeder was. Im sure you don't remember as you post disrespectful crap like that all the time. I also stand by my assertions that you could give a crap about cwd unless it helps you ban baiting. How's that ban going? You know the one you've been saying was coming any day for years. Last I heard you were fighting Corbet push back. I do apologize to the OP of the cwd thread for my part in the derailment.

From: sitO
29-Feb-24
Make up your mind William, be good or don't be good, I don't really care(I said pathetic, not gross). Baiting is not hunting, everyone including the owner of this site knows that. Now it's also proven to poison deer, and other wildlife, so why on earth would you do it? You know why, and I know why, and yes I want it banned and that's not over by a far cry.

If you or anyone wants to take the time to listen to a well presented dialogue on the detremental effects of baiting you can watch this. I doubt you will, as it's more important to you and others to grip-n-grin a buck you merely trained to come to a pre-determined spot on a map, then to actually hunt and work to preserve the wildlife you pursue.

From: Old School
29-Feb-24
Sito - I was simply replying to the limited data you presented - that’s it. So what was my takeaway supposed to be from that data point?

From: sitO
29-Feb-24
Mitch, someone here said the population is up, it's not up.

From: Old School
29-Feb-24
Ok - I don’t know that those numbers would really prove anything for either side. Looks unchanged statistically speaking. Perhaps when you go back further to when baiting was allowed, the data would show something - although overall population would obviously have some other variables affecting it as well.

From: Thornton
29-Feb-24

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Deer population peaked in the year 2000

From: sitO
29-Feb-24
To be quite honest we, in Kansas, have no idea what the deer population actually is. There are no check stations, reporting is voluntary in most cases. What we can tell you is our own observations, and you can also read about those on about any hunting website there is.

The overall herd is down, but number of mature deer(yes mainly bucks) is much less. This can be attributed to a multitude of things...leniant weapon choices(including Xguns in acrchery season), more tags being issued, NR's taking younger bucks because they paid $5-10k and aren't going home empty handed, and yes CWD.

We do need a better way to track the numbers, but for now all we can attest to is what we personally observe.

29-Feb-24
No number of total deer for 2000. Bet its not 700,000. Bet it was less and even more less in 1990 1980 ect.

From: Thornton
29-Feb-24

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Bowfreak- I'd consider it if you were a disabled kid or veteran in a wheelchair. Sadly, I think you're just a wise guy making a jab on the internet. So for the time being, my friend of 24 years pictured here and a few others with their kids will be hunting it.

From: Thornton
29-Feb-24

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Forrest- you can see the almost immediate effects of the antlerless season after 2000. It is starting to stabilize IMO because the antlerless season is not near as popular as it once was, and nonresident trophy hunters that make up a growing group of Kansas tag takers not killing very many does.

From: be still
29-Feb-24
Even if the total was semi correct on the whole state that is not a good way to go about it. For example I hear people complain in the eastern side that they have too many. It’s very possible that on the eastern side the population has grown since the year 2000. Let’s take the 700,000 number for reference…back in 2000 let’s just guess the eastern side had 400,000 on the east side of Wichita and 300,000 on the west. Today it might be sitting at 500,000 on the east and 200,000 on the west.

I know I have seen a decline in numbers since I been up there in 2017 and bought a place in 2020 northwest of Wichita. Word out west of me numbers have dropped dramatically and it slowly seems to be creeping eastward.

2 years ago I was up in northeast Kansas though and that farmer if I recall right thought they had lost about 40 percent of their herd in the last 4 years.

From: sitO
29-Feb-24

sitO's embedded Photo
sitO's embedded Photo

From: be still
29-Feb-24
I want y’all to name me some positives about baiting. Some positives regarding the health of all wildlife and deer when you go dump a half dump truck load of corn on the ground?

I’ve come to the conclusion there’s many negatives on it. For y’all’s sake I’ll call them question marks but go ahead and let’s start with all the benefits of dumping it on the ground.

29-Feb-24
When was baiting made legal in Kansas?

From: be still
29-Feb-24
Lol in 1995.

29-Feb-24
Looks like deer numbers have been very steady in my opinion.

From: Shug
29-Feb-24
When was Non Resident hunting made legal?

29-Feb-24
Some advantages to baiting. Supplement food during the rut Being able to identify mature animals before the shot. Just the excitement of having numbers of deer close on most sits.

From: sitO
29-Feb-24
"Looks like deer numbers have been very steady in my opinion"

? Please have someone read the chart to you.

From: KsRancher
29-Feb-24
Purely a guess on my part. But I would say deer numbers are somewhere between half and two-thirds of what they were around the year 2000. This is in Pratt and Barber counties. Units 15 and 16

From: Bowfreak
29-Feb-24
Not being a wise guy Thornton, just pointing out the point you made. You expect out of state landowners to let people hunt. I wanted to know if you did the same? It sounds like you let some people hunt and others you don’t. I would venture to guess that some of these non resident landowners/leasers do the same thing.

29-Feb-24
Please have someone read the chart to you.

You mean the crop damage reporting one?

From: be still
29-Feb-24
Forest this question was directed about the health of deer and animals. Let’s knock out the last one cause that is pertaining to our wants and desires. Let us concentrate solely for the benefit of animals for now…we can discuss what’s good for us later.

The first one has a big question mark but we can discuss that later too. #2 if I’m being honest you are most likely correct on that one and that could be a positive.

Anymore or anybody else got any?

29-Feb-24
I see alot of bucks run down from the rut come by grab a bite or 2 and keep running.

From: Canepole
29-Feb-24
Ks first allowed non resident deer hunting in 1995

From: Genesis
29-Feb-24
Without a doubt,in my area of Kansas there are way more deer NOW than in the late 1990’s. We have a severe population problem and late dropped 1 1/2 yo bucks running rampant

From: Mike B
29-Feb-24
Hate to stir the hornets nest here, but where is the "hunting" in killing an animal that has become accustomed to eating food in the same place where people have been leaving food for it?

Not judging it, or saying it's evil. May not be popular, but that type of critter killing does need another name aside from "hunting".

29-Feb-24
Dale06, I know and agree. But in my studies and field work of the past, I place most of that on disease and increase in predators. Namely birds of prey. Biologists tend to agree in this state about the birds of prey.

Just some food for thought. In a heavily forested, nonagriculture state, where would prey species tend to congregate? I reckon the predators follow. And enjoy the benefits of hunting their food in concentrated areas.

Like I said before, I have zero issues on how anyone decides to approach this. I have no moral obligation to any animal that makes me feel like I should apologize or feel bad if I decided to hunt over bait to kill it. It’s not about anything other than predators surely capitalize on the opportunities that bait sites give them. And the increase of disease it causes might not be proven science. But, I don’t imagine theirs funding for something that indisputable.

29-Feb-24
Mike i hunt elk 45 days stright before i go to Kansas Oklahoma and Texas to hunt deer over bait. Im not into trying to make it hard. With that being said i had 5 buck tags in2024 and never shot one. I let afew good ones walk. 1 around 170 in Kansas.

From: squirrel
29-Feb-24
Mike B. What an interesting question you ask. I have been fascinated by the "culture" of baiting since I ran into it. As an invading Yankee I was used to any such activity being illegal though certainly not un-heard of. Many people did it but you had to lie about it, so your pecker wouldn't shrink. When you crossed a line and it became legal I saw people doing the "brag/complain" thing...

"My family killed 10 huge bucks off my property but i had to dump $4000 of corn out for them to get them wary bastards off my 80 acres"

That was my neighbour told me that. And yes I thought it was weird.

I've got 6 adjacent neighbors not counting ones on the other side of a rd. 8 total. Every single one baits and 6 are within 150 yards of the fence 3 are within 25 yards.

All are incredulous that I dont bait.

I invited some friends to hunt doe last year and the ones from "up north" showed up and wanted a tour to view how deer used the property.

The ones from down south wanted to know where the nearest corn vendor was. They were ecstatic to find there was a coin operated corn dispenser (made me laugh too) so they could dump corn that night for the next morning. If there had not been that option they were fully prepared to not hunt until Walmart could sell them some bags of corn the next morning.

That bears repeating... on an unbelievably good deer hunting property they wouldn't hunt without sitting over a pile of corn. As an aside they also wouldn't hunt without an enclosed blind with propane heat when it was well above freezing (32).

Cultural norms are amazingly strong and absolutely inviolable.

From: Bowfreak
29-Feb-24
Good question Mike. Do you feel the same way about hunting a waterhole for pronghorn or elk? My point is many want to paint a lot of these discussion topics as black and white, the truth is they are all different shades of gray.

From: sitO
29-Feb-24
"Mike i hunt elk 45 days stright before i go to Kansas"

Would you be ok with baiting for Elk?

From: Mike B
29-Feb-24
Forestbows: That shows your sportsmanship, and a desire for a trophy deer rather than just a meat deer. When you are hunting elk, you are actively pursuing them across their terrain. Your skills vs. theirs, and much different than waiting for one to come eat.

Squirrel: That's an interesting perspective. If you're raised with a "this is how things are done" mentality, it would seem that laying out bait is a perfectly normal thing.

Bowfreak...agreed, there's a lot of gray there. I guess this is more of a philosophical question. As a trapper, I'm leaving bait to lure the critter into my trap, but this is called trapping, not hunting.

29-Feb-24
Elk are big. They would eat way to much! Lol

29-Feb-24
No. Running and gunning ,calling elk is how i like to hunt them. But if you want to bait them and its legal in your state i dont care.

From: sitO
29-Feb-24
Because it wouldn't be hunting

29-Feb-24
It would just different then you.

From: sitO
29-Feb-24
The difference is palpable

29-Feb-24
Forest, you are a true gentleman.

29-Feb-24
Thanks man!

From: Mike B
29-Feb-24
Got to thinking a bit more about this, and "hunting" is a general term that applies to all manner of approaches/techniques. It has yet to be fractionalized, which is very unique in this world today.

If you say to someone.. "I'm going deer hunting", it's a general term they understand, and the weapon or particular technique involved in hunting that deer is secondary.

Gentlemen, I retract my statement regarding baiting. It's still hunting. (Here's where the church lady says..."Nevermind")

From: Slate
01-Mar-24

Slate's embedded Photo
Slate's embedded Photo
Just got my Kansas crossbow mount back. What you guys think ?

From: be still
01-Mar-24
No more positives…

Going back to your first one Forest studies have shown deer corn doesn’t give them hardly any nutritional value. Man puts it out cause corn tastes like candy to deer and it’s an easy and lazy way to get deer close. Your second positive isn’t about their health but I can see where it plays into deer management.

Here’s some negatives for you. To begin with I’m not saying if you quit baiting it’s going to cause the spread of CWD to stop. Deer are social animals but since it’s spread by saliva you’re increasing that chance by piling up corn in a huge pile or by them eating out of the same tiny hole in a gravity feeder. I asked myself awhile back if I could save one deer, just one, or maybe prolong his life just a little would it be worth it for me to quit. If you’re a deer conservationist you’re answer should be a yes.

Number 2…I already said deer corn doesn’t have much nutritional value but it also can make them sick if they eat too much or it gets moldy. People are not thinking about a deer’s health when they heap this stuff up.

Number 3….if you ever go investigate a big pile of corn after it sits there awhile you will notice a bunch of crap from a bunch of different critters…coyotes, skunks, opossums, coons, and badgers just to name a few. Most of these critters can carry diseases. A guy up there in Kansas told he either lost or nearly lost his horse to a disease his horse got from a opossum sharing the horse’s feed trough.

Number 4….now you got to worry about the same critters stalking the bait pile trying to get an easy meal. Trust me I’ve seen this action live. Coyotes and bobcats know exactly where these bait piles are at. Everybody knows during rut the fawns are left alone for a little bit and so there you go.

Number 5….it congregates deer into a small area unnaturally and during October and November this not necessarily a good thing. Kansas has been my top state from seeing the amount of bucks having been injured from a fight. I’ve seen this live as well causing my corn to put them in close proximity to cause a fight that can turn out deadly. They gonna fight but I don’t need to make it worse.

I’m sure there’s more but there’s a few and that’s just on deer’s health. A short book could probably be written on how it negatively affects the other animals and how it disrupts the natural feeding patterns. Everybody knows quail, turkeys, and pheasant can be finicky concerning their health and can die pretty easily if things ain’t just right. I’ve come to the conclusion putting out big piles of corn just ain’t right.

01-Mar-24
If what your saying is true. States like Texas,Oklahoma,Arkansas ect would have no deer. The deer density is Texas is very high, and all they eat is corn. I think deer are alot tougher than your stating above. But im probably wrong.

From: be still
01-Mar-24
Forest you say you hunt here but I live here. Common practice here is using high motored spin feeders which spreads the corn way out unlike Kansas where they pile it knee high. I wish every state would ban feeders and everything but a high velocity spin feeder is at least spreading it thin over a larger area. This is also not a CWD hot zone either or let me say it hasn’t really reached this far concerning the low fenced herd. Here lately a bunch of high fences is being tested positive which proves deer in close proximity spreads it faster.

Northwest Texas though deer numbers are dropping dramatically. Our season lease we normally hunt we didn’t hunt this year cause of deer numbers. Spoke to a guy that hunts the Triangle Ranch across the fence and their numbers are so bad their buck tags got cut way back…if I remember right it was cut in half.

Forest deer can get sick but not die but that doesn’t mean it’s good to keep doing it. Tell me a good reason why Kansas should keep doing it with no positives on the deers side?

From: TonyBear
01-Mar-24

TonyBear's embedded Photo
TonyBear's embedded Photo
An oldie but still good

01-Mar-24
Management. Its not always about keeping deer alive. If baiting is band Kansas will move Rifle season into the rut to help manage numbers. Crop damage vehicle damage and over population that spreads disease.

01-Mar-24
And property value will fall drastically.

From: sitO
01-Mar-24
You can't say that with any authority, just talk.

From: 70lbDraw
01-Mar-24
When I lived in Wisconsin, I remember hearing people talk about the baiting ban. Most of them were upset because baiting was a Wisconsin “tradition”. They made it sound worse than banning the decorating of Christmas trees in December.

From: be still
01-Mar-24

be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
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Lol Tony I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen that one before.

Here’s what I’m talking about Forest. Look at these piles. I didn’t know it at the time but these are what my neighbors across the fence was doing last season. Look at the dates on these different piles. November 28. Most of the first rut is probably winding down getting ready for the second one. A guy sent these to me earlier this week. In this first pic the older deer on the right on the other side facing the camera is the deer that I observed a few days later on November 30th that looked very sick and skinny and was crapping out diarrhea.

This area is big hill and cattle country with no corn fields close. So what do you think happens when a deer might not be used to eating a lot of corn and then all of a sudden this enormous piles appears. November 28…probably worn down some from the rut and then this pile appears so now you got them pigging out on this crap that this time of the year they don’t need much of. Forest come on now…you know this ain’t good.

From: sitO
01-Mar-24
He wouldn't want it in his home state, enough said.

From: be still
01-Mar-24

be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
I just ask a person to use a little common sense.

From: be still
01-Mar-24
Forest you’re trying too hard and wanting to veer off. Management can always be taken care of with hunters. On the opposite side of this place above an outfitter got control of the place last year for the first time. The landowner himself that was only wanting to shoot a few deer for meat wasn’t allowed too. The outfitter, which by the way, wasn’t hardly paying him anything told him if he did he was going to cut back his pay even more. Needless to say after I had a talk with that landowner the outfitter ain’t coming back this year. Guess what…the landowner gets to go hunting on his own place this coming year.

So overpopulation causes disease. Forest you’re just about hinting that deer in close proximity can spread disease. Careful there buddy before you walk into a trap.

01-Mar-24
Why was baiting legalized in Kansas?

01-Mar-24
To control the deer population.

From: KB
01-Mar-24
It wasn’t “legalized”. Simply hasn’t ever been any regulation against it. Wasn’t a common practice until the 2000’s. It spread as outfitters and nonresidents poured in faster than the department/science could keep up with it and during a time wildlife populations were generally doing great. Now most are not, but it’s so engrained as the “tradition/culture” it’s all an entire generation of Kansas hunters know. If they would have tried a ban in the early 2000s, maybe even up to 2010 or so, hardly anyone would have made a peep about it.

From: Thornton
01-Mar-24
"Property value will fall drastically"- It won't. Period.

I will add though, the common blue collar family can no longer afford to raise their kids on a farm because of wealthy hunters "calling the shots" on land prices as one realtor told me.

The American dream to have a farm, raise, kids and livestock is a nothing but a dream for most folks now. I work with a bunch of country girl nurses, that despite their decent pay, and their husband's decent pay in a factory or other labor job, can barely afford 5 acres and a house.

I could give a damn less if my deer property fell in value to nothing. It would just mean I could buy more. I plan on donating mine to the state anyway when I die for disabled kid hunts, wounded warriors, etc. I've had no less than 5 millionaire/billionaires offer to buy my property. I wouldn't even need a land agent. I could just send a text, and show up at the title company with my banker.

I'm just glad I had the sense to buy when it was still dirt cheap.

01-Mar-24
What did you pay for your land Thornton? Whats it worth now?

From: csalem
01-Mar-24
Thornton. That scenario with two families working and cannot afford a house and land or just a house is not unique to Kansas. That’s an issue throughout the United States right now.

From: KB
01-Mar-24
What Thornton’s ground is worth has absolutely nothing to do with dumping corn piles. Have Kansas land values outpaced Colorado or Iowa the last 20 years, Forest? Show me the graph where folks are paying a premium for the ability to bait vs land values in states they can’t. If you’d just stick with “I want a lazy hunt after six weeks in the mountains and don’t care about any of the other native species” that would be one thing. All this deflection and gibberish, literally, is just sad though.

01-Mar-24
Its all true is why it bothers you so much. Kansas land in our area has grown 300% in 10 years. All because of out of state hunters. Keep pushing boys. You will be wearing orange all of November.

From: Thornton
01-Mar-24
The property I hope to donate I gave $110k for in 2010. Properties statewide that size with half the habitat, game, tillable ground, and water are bringing up to $400k in remote counties, much more near cities.

01-Mar-24
I think its cool you would donate your property.

From: sitO
01-Mar-24
"You will be wearing orange all of November"

He'll guarantee it lol

From: RK
01-Mar-24
I hope Kansas works all of that out for what Kansas resident want. Great State really nice people. Usually hunt two or three times a year up there when I can make the time. Birds only Have all the deer I'd ever want at home

I have no idea who came up with the corn "pile" Very strange system. Never seen anything like that here.

Many times from Oct. to March I may have up to 70 plus broadcast feeders running as well as many gravity protein feeders and fish feeders in some of the managed lakes and tanks

The wide area of distribution and small amount of corn being distributed insures that it is cleaned up before any mold or excessive multi animal use spoils the area

On the border ranches the corn is medicated ( govt mandates) with Ivamectin to help control the Mexican fever tick. The added benefit of that is it controls internal and external parasites on all of the various animals that eat that corn including but not limited to coyote Fox raccoon turkey deer javelina hogs. End result is some very healthy animals

I guess we have been very lucky the last 41 years in not having any CWD show up on our free range or fenced ranches

01-Mar-24
I dont think Kansas residents want to ban baiting. I think the ones who do are a very small population of Kansas resident hunters. Small group big voice! Sound familiar?

From: sitO
01-Mar-24
I don't think the residents of Colorado want baiting. I think the ones who do are a very small population of CO residents. Small people, sound familiar?

From: KB
01-Mar-24
There was a survey conducted in 2020 and 54% of respondents opposed a ban on bait/supplemental feed. It was done primarily to take the temperature of the public with regard to CWD. After the informational presentations, commission discussions and social media banter last year I’d be very interested to see a poll of hunters in Kansas who have been exposed to all or at least much more of the information than when that 54% number was taken. Since we’re throwing out wild guesses and pulling stats out of thin air, I’ll offer that I think there would be far more in favor of a baiting ban than your “very small population” assessment. Hell, I know a pile of guys that bait who’d love to see it gone.

Whoever sent me a PM, not ignoring you. Bowsite won’t let me open them right now.

From: RK
01-Mar-24
Same as KB. I can't get Private messages at this time

01-Mar-24
Man Corbet and Bloom sure dont want to lose the right to bait deer. Those guys are taking it personal. Ive been in Kansas for 12 years and have meet alot of people there. Mostly good people. None of them care about baiting deer. The only time i hear about a band is on here.

From: be still
01-Mar-24
Well gosh dang Forest there ain’t too many resident hunters left so yes it’s a small voice. Yep I hunt up there so you can blame me some too.

No I disagree with you on the percentage…or least the area I’m in. Local hunters I think would love for it to go away but there is so much money being paid by the out of state hunters they allow it. One of my friends that is a farmer/rancher leases his place. The guy has a cell camera and feeder on the property and says the guy won’t come down to hunt until a big one starts showing up and daylighting. He told me…I know maybe that shouldn’t but that just really aggravates me. Another big local coop owner there surprised me. He sells and makes money off corn but he wishes it would go away as well. He was willing to speak at one of those commission meetings through Zoom but somehow he didn’t get through when he tried.

More and more these locals are getting fed up with it. The ground I leased back in 2017 I had to get some NRs just to help pay for it because of the amount he was asking. Finally I told him this year I was sick and tired of dealing with guys out of state. We had a good talk the other night and agreed to drop the price quite a bit to get some resident hunters. Yep some of these farmers and ranchers are getting fed up with it and they’re getting a little more educated on what’s going on.

From: be still
01-Mar-24
Forest up above there Sito mentioned something about clients. Are you an Outfitter?

01-Mar-24
I take enough guys to help me pay for land we lease and the little bit i own. We are Archery only for 12 years. Got a spot or 2 available if anyone is interested. Lol!

From: sitO
01-Mar-24
How many mature bucks did your clients kill last Fall?

01-Mar-24
More than you! Lol

From: be still
01-Mar-24
Good to know you ain’t making money off deer in Kansas. Most of the guys fighting the bait ban are usually an outfitter somewheres, a feed store owner, or somebody that likes to go with an outfitter hunting.

01-Mar-24
Im sorry that was uncalled for. We do pretty good. If a guy dont shoot he is passing good deer. Like me i didn't kill a buck last year.

From: sitO
01-Mar-24
Just wondered, no pics posted on social like usual. Honestly I think you're seeing the decline as well, but too greedy to make concessions.

01-Mar-24

FORESTBOWS 's embedded Photo
A good one from last season.
FORESTBOWS 's embedded Photo
A good one from last season.
Its nice to know your stalking me on social media. I lost a couple leases because of posting on fb so i dont do it much anymore.

From: sitO
01-Mar-24
You usually post them here, and 1 out of 12 is pretty poor, similar to your Elk season? That guy wasn't hunting anyway so it doesn't count.

Did your poacher buddy come again this year?

01-Mar-24
Sorry Kyle not going to work bud!

From: KB
01-Mar-24
Is wearing a Hunting Public hoodie on a baited lease like rocking a Patrick Mahomes jersey to your buddy’s backyard flag football game? We all need heroes I suppose.

01-Mar-24
And we all need haters. Keeps the fire burning.

From: sitO
01-Mar-24
You wanna spit fire, I can spit fire buddy boy

From: Mike B
01-Mar-24
Seems there is a software glitch..I can't get PM's either. Whoever sent it, I'll get back to you when I can.

From: TonyBear
02-Mar-24
Back in another age when deer were starving needing food in the North they would cut down small trees, brush, young cedars as the deer were focusing on browse.

As a kid I remember the corn, alfalfa, hay warnings. If you want stinky deer those feeding on the split grain on the railroad are about the worst. Meat seemed a little rank too.

From: Mule Power
02-Mar-24
I read this thread because this site always has the most well-rounded and intelligent comments. I don’t care one way or another about baiting. Baiting has never been legal for anything in Pennsylvania. Never bothered me. I’ve gone right next-door to Ohio and hunted over bait. If you have never hunted and think it makes things easy you are wrong. Well, unless it’s an extremely harsh late season in January or February in food sources are limited in deer are all yarded up. But still, the big bucks will lay in the cover and die before they walk out and commit suicide. With how close Ohio is in the size of the but sucks AND the private property I have access to if it was that easy I can assure you I would be over there. The words easy and big whitetail bucks don’t belong in the same sentence.

Anyway, my two cents which is probably worthless compared to the actual experience many guys on here have. I agree with Ambush that anything that poses a health risk to the wildlife should be banned. Period. I see lots of guys who want baiting banned talking about the dangerous of feeding deer corn. Corn is their buzz word. If that’s the case, would those people be happy if the regulations just specified what you can and cannot use for bait? What if it was an extremely healthy nutritional food? What if they did actually benefit the overall herd? Would that change the opinion of those against it? If they are really concerned with the welfare of wildlife they would probably say it’s OK. But instead we’d find out real fast who has their own personal reasons for their opinion.

Same goes for the people in favor of baiting. I highly doubt that the majority have the welfare of deer in mind when they spend money to bait. So I don’t think there’s any question it’s for personal gain. But in the process, if done properly, and they are truly only shooting mature deer then it does stand to benefit the deer population in that area.

I believe that compromise is always the best solution. If I were the one writing the laws, I wouldn’t allow or eliminate most things. Instead, I would take a good look at what’s going on and just make sure it was done properly. That would mean either specifying what people can use for bait and maybe also regulating what times of year it is legal. I’m pretty sure we can come up with some things that would be more beneficial to deer in the late season, then the limited nutrition stuff they are left to winter on. If it’s not corn fine. But the debate should not revolve around corn alone.

One other thing worth mentioning is that I have lots of friends living in states where baiting is legal, and they do not bait. There is something to be said for that. To me it shows that the return on your investment of time and money to bait is not all it’s cracked up to be.

I agree that Forest’s post was a very good one. I like a man who takes accountability and isn’t afraid to apologize if he thinks he’s wrong. Hats off

02-Mar-24
I have no issue with those who broadcast bait, or plant a bait plot.

From: Jimmyjumpup
02-Mar-24
I feel like I came in on the middle of the story. In Wv in some areas we can’t bait deer. But we can feed the squirrels and birds. Just not deer and turkeys lol

02-Mar-24
I might be wrong but i think most guys on here just consider the use of any form of bait to be cheating and not considered real hunting. Like Joe said its not magic. Another thing i have noticed is alot of the guys against seem to have the ability to hunt many days in the fall. Many guys for the use of bait dont have near as much time to spend afeild. Guys with larger pieces of land with lots of deer tend to not like baiting. Guys with less land tend to see more value in it.

From: Builder07
02-Mar-24
deers eyes are sunk in pretty good. Took a while to find him?

02-Mar-24
Shot was high and way back. We got lucky for sure.

From: sitO
02-Mar-24
If it's not a slam dunk, or doesn't make it easier, then why use it? We've heard all the excuses, just hunt like a man and quit poisoning wildlife.

From: Groundhunter
02-Mar-24
Ok. Here is my perspective. I can plant any food plot I want, and I do, and suck in alot of deer. I have apple tree Grove to hunt. Deer come in heavy, and eat close. However, IF, I take 10 apples off the tree, and throw them around in a spot, on my land, that is baiting and I am in violation. Geesh. This would be Wis. Again I can plant any seed foreign or domestic to bring deer in, but the old guy down the road, puts out some apples and a half gallon of corn, on the public, and he causes and spreads CWD? I know baiting causes issues and conflicts on public land, but us private land owners can suck alot of deer off the public. I don't get it......... Of course we improve our land for mgt, BUT food plots are kill plots. Commercial farming, is a business and livelihood, and important to our economy, my food plot is not.

02-Mar-24
Not every property has consistent deer movement. I would think is the #1 reason why people use bait.

From: KB
02-Mar-24
“Not every property has consistent deer movement. I would think is the #1 reason why people use bait.”

Since you’re so good at putting words in other people’s mouths with regard to this topic I’ll take a stab at doing the same…

“My properties are subpar compared to my neighbors. I need corn piles to level the playing field and give deer a reason to travel on my ground. Without it I’d have to spend money on beneficial habitat work that improves the livelihoods of multiple species. Antlers are far more important to me than the current trends in Turkey/upland bird populations, disease mitigation, and overpopulations of predator species that are affecting many of our game species. I understand my bait sites have an affect on all those dynamics, but I simply don’t care enough to change my ways. Antlers are more important. I start threads about the future rights/privileges of the hunting community to virtue signal my good intentions, but if those rights and privileges aren’t directly correlated to my ability to acquire big antlers I don’t really care in the end. Folks who want rights and privileges to hunt healthy populations of turkeys, pheasants, quail and prairie chickens be damned. I refuse to give up my right to negatively affect their experience!”

From: sitO
02-Mar-24
This ^

From: Ambush
02-Mar-24
Quote SitO "We've heard all the excuses, just hunt like a man and quit poisoning wildlife."

"like a man" Be a man and get yourself access to thousands of acres of ag land and sit on the edge of standing or picked corn or beans or peas or whatever, and shoot a buck that habitually uses the same pattern because of the crop.

I have no problem with the banning of bait, or some types of bait or even amounts of bait, IF emotionless science is followed. But if the "science" presented is applied the same way it is for, say, banning some firearms, than no. If it's driven by the moral or ethical constructs of someone's own mind, then I can't support it. Anybody can cherry pick data to support their argument, just look at some of the socio/political threads on here.

At one point I remember there being a big battle amongst hunters in Michigan about being limited to one five gallon pail of corn. The pros and cons were pretty much "its all about me!"

I don't expect fair dialogue from SitO or Thorton, or even respectful debate, but they're also two guys that claim to have access to thousands of acres of private land to hunt. Neither has any regard or sympathy for the Towny and his twelve year old (maybe future) hunter. And I fully expect the dripping with sarcasm retort of " well there's no future for the kid if all the deer in Kansas are dead from Pat's corn pile either!!"

I just reject any argument or evidence pushed at me by hate. Especially hate of specific "types" of people. Eventually someone will make enough noise to be heard over the rest and get the government to do the right thing, because the government always does the right thing when it gets to them. And we know when they've done their job when nobody is happy.

From: sitO
02-Mar-24
Likewise Rod, just more excuses. I don't need to blow a horn, people who know me know what I do to help get others involved and to protect our resources. I'm not here to make friends, especially with those I don't consider to be hunters, or stewards of wildlife.

02-Mar-24
Not sure why you want to attack me personally on this. But i dont think it has as much ill affect as you do. I also think more properties in Kansas are un baited than baited. Who are you to tell someone what to do with their property. What if a law was passed you have to put out corn in November on your property. I also think lot of anti bait guys cant compete with the neighbors that do and that is the motivation the drives most of this. Yall use the unproven scientific "facts" to hide it. Unland birds? Quit burning every blade of grass every spring. Work on population of hawks.

Every guy on this post is hunting antlers. If you weren't you would shoot the first deer that walk buy ya. I know you dont do that. Your waiting for big antlers guaranteed

02-Mar-24
Well put Ambush.

From: sitO
02-Mar-24
I'm against anyone who baits Forest, you aren't special. "You think"..."You bet"..."You guarantee"...but you won't take the time to educate yourself and are unwilling, but not unable to make any positive change.

02-Mar-24
You think you know. You think you know me but you dont. We disagree on very few things. Deer hunting is one of them.

From: sitO
02-Mar-24
I've known of you, for many years, don't care to meet.

From: pirogue
02-Mar-24
KB nailed many reasons. I have two different properties that have adjacent landowners who bait. If I don’t bait, the deer stay on neighboring properties.

02-Mar-24
And here i was going to invite you to family dinner next November. Dang it!

From: PushCoArcher
02-Mar-24
Ambush summed it up pretty nicely.

From: Ambush
02-Mar-24
I don't have any turkeys closer than an eight hour drive, but it seems to be one of the pegs you hang your argument on. You say it's a fact that corn piles are devastating the turkey population. But how can you reconcile that "fact' with the other 'fact" that states that don't and haven't allowed baiting for years have turkey populations suffering the same fate. What's causing those declines? Could your declines be being caused by the same unknowns? If you refuse to even consider other facts, how can you claim to be science driven?

I have questions that can't be answered. How does CWD "spontaneously" appear in herds of reindeer separated from our "epicenter" by thousands of miles of ocean? Is it possible that nature has used this disease as population control for thousands of years? The strong survive and carry on? There are millions more whitetail in NA now than there were before Europeans brought mass agriculture. Its an artificially dense population maintained through artificially high food sources. What you're used to seeing in not natural and maybe nature is correcting that.

It's like wild horse lovers that have convinced themselves that wild horses are natural because they've been here the lovers whole short lives on earth.

Herding, grazing and browsing animals are designed to live in close proximity to each other and cover the same ground over and over and over. I can easily agree that a thousand pound corn pile that rots and molds is not likely beneficial and quite possibly detrimental. But can the same be said for five pound piles spaced hundreds of yards apart and replenished frequently? Does corn laying on the ground in a picked field go moldy? How many pounds of corn per acre is left in the field after harvest. If someone broadcasts that same amount of pounds per acre in a clearing on their two acres, is that corn now magically deadlier than the stuff in the field?

Sometimes we take too short a view of history and I think outdoors people are particularly guilty of this, always referencing "the good old days". I was at a fish and wildlife gathering a number of years ago. A speaker started out his presentation by stating beavers were partly to blame for the lower than "normal" inland salmon runs. What!??! Beaver were trapped hard two hundred years ago and few remained. They're dams washed out and provided access to more spawning grounds. Salmon increased. We quit trapping beavers and they plugged up those spawning channels again and salmon decreased, but now it was within our memory. All we could say was "it's not the good old days" and blame anything and everything just to be able to point a finger. When in fact it was probably more natural. But we don't want "more natural".

Maybe you just need far less deer on your landscape to be of actual benefit to their health.

02-Mar-24
“ Who are you to tell someone what to do with their property.[?]”

It’s not About private management of privately owned land. It’s About State management of a publicly held resource.

Baiting and food plots Privatize the Public Resource as their primary objective. In direct conflict with the fundamental premise of the North American Model. Both practices also concentrate wildlife at unnaturally high population densities — population density being one of the key variables in EVERY epidemiological model, EVER. And yes, thereby putting the Resource at elevated risk on a Regional scale.

So rather than “ Who are you to tell someone what to do with their property[?]”, maybe ask who the hell are private landowners to be putting a Public Resource at risk for the sake of personal gain?

If someone wants to put out bait for a week or so to make it possible to quickly cull a pile of does in an area where that’s necessary/beneficial for the health of the herd, I’m all for it. Outside of that specific use case, JMO the future of Hunting is brighter when bait-free.

From: bigswivle
02-Mar-24
Just finished filling my feeders, what are u guys up to??

From: pirogue
02-Mar-24
I bet my grandkids could get a high passing grade on going down this thread and picking out who either owns land, or has to hunt on public land, and who lives in a state where baiting is allowed, or lives in a state where it is not.

From: sitO
02-Mar-24
Rod, I'm not a Biologist, those are the people who can answer your questions...not the BS community in general. Those are also the people I trust, not the BS community.

There are people here who can't even spell "banned" FFS.

From: Ambush
02-Mar-24
I gotta go practice my elk calling. I seem to get better results with inviting cow calls then loud challenge bugles, but the screaming match can be exciting for a bit. Especially if one of the buglers is pissing all over.

From: sitO
02-Mar-24
See ya

From: KB
02-Mar-24
Lol. Spelling is hard.

Well said Corax.

02-Mar-24
In Pennsylvania, the PGC has linked feding deer, "baiting", as one cause for CDW and yet allow feeding of deer, not baiting while hunting, by folks in the state except in CDW specific areas. My question for them is this, if the risk is that high for CDW to spread and feeding or even using natural deer scents for hunting is banned within CWD zones, then why are they letting anyone feed deer. It is hypocritical in my opinion. Why not ban feeding deer across the state if they are so concerned about the spread of CDW?

From: Mule Power
02-Mar-24
SitO: “If it’s not a slam dunk or make it easier why use it?”

Where do I begin? If spending $10,000 a year on high end clothing, thousand dollar backpacks and every gadget in the world that makes sure bows shoot bullseyes doesn’t actually give us a slam dunk or make it easier. Why do we use all that stuff? This is Bowsite. It’s made up of people who could potentially make life a hell of a lot easier and way more of a slam dunk by using rifles but they choose not to. If you think baiting, makes killing deer a slam dunk, you obviously have no experience with it. Have you ever tried killing mature bears over bait? I’ve been to New Brunswick and watched a hundred bears come in and out. Not one shooter. They show up on the cameras in the middle of the night. Hmm

Like I said, I am not for or against baiting. But if someone wants to make a comment that doesn’t hold water, I’ll be glad to reply based on my actual experience, as limited as it may be.

From: sitO
02-Mar-24
So why use it? Why take the chance of spreading disease, increasing predation on nesting areas, degrading the skill levels you claim to since you're a bowhunter?

You probably won't believe this, but I know traditional bowhunters that sit over failure piles? Why did they ever even pick up a bow to begin with?

From: pirogue
02-Mar-24
I bet my grandkids could get a high passing grade on going down this thread and picking out who either owns land, or has to hunt on public land, and who lives in a state where baiting is allowed, or lives in a state where it is not.

From: Mule Power
02-Mar-24
SitO… none of us will ever know everything unless we see the world from the perspective of others. Until then we will only know half of everything. If you think baiting is such a no brainer why don’t you try becoming a trapper for a living. It sounds like you’d get rich quick. Maybe head west and trap wolves. It’ll be easy!

From: sitO
02-Mar-24
Predators are so much smarter than deer Joe, just look yourself in the mirror...you're good enough, you're smart enough, and doggone'it people think you're a hunter

From: Mule Power
02-Mar-24
What?

What is the issue here? Is it the idea of an unfair advantage or the harmful affects on wildlife? Or just something you don’t care for? That’s fine. I don’t care for liver so I just don’t eat it. You can if you choose to. I don’t mind. Truly nothing personal here for me. Again I don’t care either way and certainly don’t judge anyone on either side of the debate. Your thoughts on my ideas about a compromise? Oh… deer eating at the same restaurant will all get sick. I guess I forgot about that. I guess the fact that they have been feeding the elk hay in the same place near Jackson Wyoming for decades without problem made me think it’s not that big of a factor. My guess is that coyotes are a bigger threat to whitetail deer populations than corn.

From: sitO
02-Mar-24
Unfair and harmful, no big secret. Isn't personal for me either, simply standing for what I've learned and believe. I'm not alone, but many choose not to address here.

Shall we wait until the herd in Jackson gets sick, or the deer feeding on the "trough" videos? Do you honestly believe that cervids need our help to have survived as long as they have?

No compromise is warranted, I choose to hunt wild animals.

From: Mule Power
02-Mar-24
Fair enough. As long as you don’t judge people for their choices.

I live in a state where baiting for anything is prohibited. We’re not even allowed to use InLine muzzleloaders. So I’ve never really put much thought into it. I do know that people in different areas have different practices, different beliefs, different opinions, as well as different laws. I also know that a lot of these people think it’s OK to impose limitations on each other because they feel their way should be the only way. That is something I definitely do not care for.

From: be still
03-Mar-24

be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
Still waiting on some benefits of baiting concerning the health of wildlife. Only one I got so far besides the management one was I see a lot of rutting bucks come by for just a bite or 2 then leave. But then you got em saying well corn piles really don’t make it easier. Which is it?

You got people on here saying well…we need to be more worried about coyotes killing a deer. Again it’s proven that these coyotes know exactly where these bait piles are at. Which is it? Are you suggesting we get rid of bait piles to make it harder for coyotes to get deer…cause that would make sense.

They say on here well we need to control numbers cause if they get high it spreads diseases easier. Again they know somehow miraculously, even without science, that you put too many deer close together you up the chances of transmitting diseases. Turn right around though and they act dumb to a bunch of deer crowding around a corn pile or all eating from the same hole of a gravity feeder. Then comes that phrase, and you don’t even have to wait for it long,…show me the science.

Told this one on the Kansas site but I’ll share it with y’all as well and maybe you’ll see a little bit why I get aggravated some. A guy that sells deer feed gets up at the commission meeting last year and starts ranting how if Kansas bans corn he doesn’t think he’ll be able to shoot any big deer anymore cause in his area it will just make it just too hard. 5 something minutes later, I timed it by the way watching the video later, same guy gets up and tells all of the commissioners that they’re all welcomed to come see all his big deer on his wall…told them not one was shot using corn. Which is it?…cause you confusing the hell out of me.

When I’ve noticed a coyote using a deep dry creek bed for cover till he gets close to corn before coming up to peek over to see if anything is there…I don’t need science to tell me what he was doing.

When I see hawks fly by consistently over corn after rabbits, quail, and rabbits…again don’t need science.

When you see a deer with ribs showing and he looks like he’s on his death bed from something terrible I’m not asking for science first on whether or not I’m wanting that deer to be eating at a gravity feeder before other deer.

When I see a moldy coyote pissed stained pile of corn with crap of multiple critter all in it I don’t need science proving me to me that’s not good for deer to eat.

It’s like taking your flat tire to get it repaired and get in an argument with the tire guy that you don’t think the nail caused the flat. You told him it didn’t go flat until you pulled the nail out so therefore the hole caused the flat and not the nail. Come on people. Mother Nature puts enough nails out there to help keep the balance in nature….let’s not add nails just to satisfy our wants to make it easier to kill.

Consider this and like I already said…think a little with common sense. Please don’t become like the lady above.

04-Mar-24
Seems like you spend alot of time watching corn piles!

From: be still
04-Mar-24
If you judge me by my past Forest I’ve been a bad man.

From: APauls
04-Mar-24
SK (Saskatchewan) baits deer, and has for eons. MB (Manitoba) doesn't. SK has much healthier deer populations. Rumours from SK is that the CWD deer are mostly in the south where they live in Ag fields and the north is basically free of CWD. The North is also where most baiting happens. In areas with really tough winters I bet that the baiting makes a huge impact on winter survival at a time when the deer are hit the hardest on weight loss. Completely theoretical. SK has upland birds up the wazoo. You cross the border from MB to SK (I have hunted SK 4 or 5 times) and the deer numbers are immediately evident. Crossing the border is like entering Nirvana compared to MB. SK has less human population than MB. Odds are baiting helps the deer from what I can tell.

From: Slate
04-Mar-24
Calhoun those Kansas guys really turned you into a personal ass licker for them. You know you loved baiting. You where just looking for some weak minded folk like yourself.

From: be still
04-Mar-24
Slate…just get back to knitting your Hello Kitty shirts.

Pauls I’m thinking there’s 3 states north of Kansas before you hit the Canada border. If I lived up there in some of those winters with the deep snow and they started getting hungry I would definitely do something to help feed them. Pretty sure I would do something different than dump a truck load of corn on the ground though. I’m sure there’s better ways like rolling out or scattering out hay. Trust me on this one….this ain’t why they’re doing it in Kansas and I’m pretty sure everybody knows this. There’s a huge difference between the people that do things sometimes to help wildlife get by up north and what’s happening in Kansas. Like somebody said up above…they ain’t doing it for the benefits of the deer. Those corn piles I posted up above was put out by somebody that was just trying to get pics so he could sell the place. Talked to him face to face and he was a very nice gentleman but I just don’t think he realizes what he was doing. I really didn’t know the damage I was doing back then either so I can’t judge anybody to harshly not knowing what they’re truly thinking or not thinking.

From: RK
04-Mar-24
Actually you were doing no damage at all. Follow the CWD timeline. It's pretty clear on what happened. Don't feel guilty. Let other misguided souls do that

From: RK
04-Mar-24

04-Mar-24
Dump truck load! Lol.

From: be still
05-Mar-24
No RK I’m pretty sure that time I filled that big metal gravity feeder up there in late summer did them no good. When the temp is 100 outside just think what the temp is inside that feeder. Trust me I know what corn looks like when it sits too long in a feeder. Did them no good either when I piled too much in late December that one time trying to make it easier to get one.

Forest I know you’re getting frustrated cause you can’t come up with any positives on putting it out so now you’re just trying to resort to cracking jokes. Why don’t you try reading correctly before responding. No where here did I say dump truck load. A truck load of corn is what I said up above and further up I said a half a dump truck load.

Fellas with no benefits for the deer it’s pretty plain here people do it to make it easier to put some horns on the wall. You always feel better if you just tell the truth.

From: Slate
05-Mar-24

Slate's embedded Photo
Slate's embedded Photo
Calhoun you are such an ass puppet. You best not be making fun of my cat shirt

From: Mule Power
05-Mar-24
Corn. All the antis want to talk about is corn. Reminds me of anti gun people who only want to talk about assault rifles.

If he filled the feeder with acorns would you be ok with it?

From: Catscratch
05-Mar-24
There's other things I care about a lot more than baiting, but Calhoun has asked an honest question about the positives to wildlife (from dumping bait). I've been following this thread out of curiosity to those answers. APauls gave a good answer related to his area of the world. Forest gave a decent answer in relation to management choices. I don't care if someone baits just like I don't care if someone uses a crossbow, same boat if you ask me. I do however care about the health of our wildlife and am curious about the benefits to baiting. There has to be more than what Forest and APauls has said for so many to be doing it?

05-Mar-24
People who bait aren’t likely doing it for the betterment of the species. They are doing it to hunt over. The pluses and minuses involved are just the affect variable. Not the reasoning.

I too don’t understand the desire from some of you guys to continue to berate another for hunting over bait. It’s stupid beyond description. Not to mention tactless and something I’m sure would go different if not on a key board.

be still, why don’t you be quite. You’ve made your point. Forest or no one else is going to apologize for hunting over bait. Nor should they.

I know a guy that looks at baiting like SitO. Not only does he not like it, he talks down to anyone he can who does. Just so happens the people he’s looking down on works for him. So, he feels like he’s convinced them all of their errors. Instead, they just stay quiet and let him rant.

That’s pretty much what’s going on here. Two guys are so over bearing it’s like they are bullying their way to a self proclaimed victory. It’s stupid on top of ignorant to keep beating that war drum. Who are you helping? It isn’t about the wildlife with the non baiters either. It’s about shaming. Just look at this thread for proof.

Do your own thing. Those setting corn as their staple hunting aren’t going to be doing it forever. This group is an aging bunch. I’m likely the youngest respondent to this thread. And, I’m 50 years old!!!!!!

From: Slate
05-Mar-24
When there is a bumper crop of acorns on my property I see bear, deer, raccoons, squirrels, chipmunk, possums all eating and slobbering in the same areas. Please what should I do? Should I clear cut my white oaks? Will all these animals get CWD? This happens for several weeks while the acorns fall. Should I shoot every animal that comes in? Please Calhoun I need to know. I’m sitting here patiently knitting.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
It's about both Justin

From: Native Okie
05-Mar-24
This thread…. Same sh#t different day. Yawn….

From: APauls
05-Mar-24
I don't think the advantage to hunting over bait even needs to be mentioned, it's an understood fact.

What's interesting in Manitoba is that hunting over bait is illegal for white people due to CWD concerns, but interestingly enough if anywhere in your lineage there is indigenous ancestry and you can therefore have a Metis card now it is legal for you to bait, and a whole host of other things.

Also interesting is our neighbours to the west (Saskatchewan) can bait, and to the east (Ontario) can also bait.

My personal wish for Manitoba would be that either no one baits or everyone can bait, it's stupid to have it based on the colour of your skin. Baiting for bear is common practise. The animal changes and it is now a deer and suddenly it's the world's most evil practise. I get how guys can be passionate about it, but I just don't see the vile-ness in the act itself, unless negative byproduct is very evident. In SK or Ontario I just don't see the evidence.

From: Slate
05-Mar-24
This thread was started by an individual that has baited his entire existence while living in Texas. He started hunting Kansas and became an ass puppet for some of the guys on the Kansas forum. These same guys hate baiting for one reason and one reason only. They hate the 20,000 plus non residents that hunt in Kansas and the outfitters these non residents hunt with. They believe every non resident baits and if the baiting stops the non residents will stop coming to hunt. They will tell you they hate baiting for all these others reasons but, trust me it’s the non residents that is their #1issue.

05-Mar-24
In SE Kansas the deer have it pretty good. They have lots to eat and even the natural browse is high protein good stuff. I often see them choose other food over the bait. I bait for 1 1/2 months out of the year. Im not doing it to benefit the deer. I honestly have never witnessed it being harmful to the health of any deer.... except the ones that get arrows ran through them.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
Be Still saw the light, and has decided to do what's right, as have others with IQ's

From: Catscratch
05-Mar-24
Slate, bestill is a damn good dude. Give ya the shirt off his back type of guy. Besides TX he also baited in KS. At a point he saw for himself that his baiting was having a negative affect on wildlife and made a change in his hunting to try to help. I can assure you he thinks for himself and is nobodies puppet. I'm vouching for this man's character as I know him in real life. How many conversations have you had with him that was honest and not just to stir the pot?

From: Ambush
05-Mar-24
I'm pretty sure that most of the stuff that Be Still has "seen" has only been "seen" in his imagination. He was obviously a baiter at one time, but now that he has seen the light. That "awakening" usually takes place after they no longer want or need to do something. And in that strange twist of mind that only "I've seen the light" crusaders can muster, they are now much superior even to those that never indulged in whatever the practice was they freed themselves from.

And a few are more concerned with hating the sinner than the affects of the sin.

I sometimes search posts on unrelated topics from some zealous posters on subjects like baiting. It is amazing how many anti baiters have stories or advice posts with lines like:

"I found where several trails came together through the crop to the fence edge and set up my stand just inside"

"I could see the deer feeding on leftover corn along the edge coming toward my stand"

"I could just see the buck's back above the four rows of uncut corn that the farmer (or I, my uncle, dad, neighbor) left for me and he would feed by at twenty yards."

"The little arm of corn that jutted into the bush was full of deer when the sun came up and I had set my stand perfectly."

"This kill plot was about to pay off again!"

"I asked the farmer where he'd be cutting next so I could set up to take advantage of that."

I know its true, but I don't know the science behind what makes corn in a field good for deer, but after it has touched a five gallon bucket it becomes poison. One of life's mysteries.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
Ah but it's not a mystery Rod, re-listen to the podcast...you seem to have forgotten what you learned

From: bowwild
05-Mar-24
I haven't read all of these posts, but a couple of points: - I would not drink from the cup of a person suspected of having a transmissible malady. - I think baiting is an alternative to scouting. - I am guilty of baiting for black bears. I understand the inconsistency. - The litmus test for me is whether or not I'd take a picture of my "trophy" with a bait pile or animal-proof fence in the background? If not then I'm not proud of the accomplishment. And not taking such a picture is not the same as covering bloody wounds or tongues before immortalising the kill. - I am surprised how baiting has become so widespread and essential to some. - The excuse "that everyone or the neighbor is doing it" conflicts with Mom's question to my brother 60 years ago, "If Rick jumped off a bridge, would you follow?"

From: Ambush
05-Mar-24
It is a mystery Kyle. I know I've asked you numerous times but you always avoid answering. Does corn on the ground in a field go moldy? Of the deer you hunt, is a substantial portion of their diet corn, beans, peas or other grain or cereal crops? What would you guess as a percentage, just a guess? How far do you have to be (in yards or miles) from a Failure Field for it to be considered legitimate hunting?

bowwild: when you shoot a bear over bait, do you drag it back to the barrels for the pics? Or an antelope shot at a waterhole if it ran eighty yards, do you drag it back to the waterhole and lay it where it was standing at the shot?

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
Apples -> oranges Rod, but you know this. I believe Bowwild's point is that people are embarrassed, and ashamed, when they shoot a deer over a failure pile...as they should be.

From: Ambush
05-Mar-24
No, I don't know "this", and that's why I ask the questions you always avoid by resorting to insults. And its not apples to oranges, its corn on the ground to corn on the ground.

From: Native Okie
05-Mar-24
This thread…. Same sh#t different day. Yawn….

05-Mar-24

FORESTBOWS 's embedded Photo
FORESTBOWS 's embedded Photo

FORESTBOWS 's Link

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
Rod, if you can't tell the difference between a pile of corn placed artificially, purposefully, and 40-320ac of corn I'm not going to be able to help you.

I may have hurt some feelings, I assure you it was intentional.

From: Ambush
05-Mar-24
Doesn’t hurt my feelings, no corn here.

From: csalem
05-Mar-24
I doubt many here have enough respect for you Sito to let you hurt their feelings. I know several here that feel sorry for you, but respect, nope.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
I'm doing great Chris, don't you worry about me sweetheart

From: Ambush
05-Mar-24
Well my evasive friend, since you cannot answer even the most basic questions to support your position, we can only conclude one thing. You are simply bitter and resentful that other hunters, especially NR hunters, that don't have the massive advantage of large swaths of private Failure Fields to hunt, can still kill your deer. You still don't want others to know that, but you've admitted it to yourself a while ago. You know that's true. But keep up the good fight, fooling others.

But I do have one of my questions answered with a quick search, though no admission from you. Two of the few recent pictures you posted were your view from your treestand. Both about twenty yards from a Failure Field. So I guess that's how far a crop fed buck has to be to be edible and ethically killed. Or at least you as the so called hunter has to be twenty yards. Pretty sure the buck can have his feet in the feed.

Rest easy though because at least you don't have to worry about me coming to Kansas with a poison pail and ruining your whole hunting season. I don't want your depression on my conscience.

From: Thornton
05-Mar-24
You shit talkers really don't know the guy. I find it funny how many guys jump on the trash talking wagon because you maybe lack skill, patience, or the ability to identify a hunter that has principles. Kyle has a phenomenal amount of permissions and family owned land to hunt. He takes the entire season off to hunt sometimes multiple states as proven on his live hunts and I see no reason he could be bitter, other than the fact you lazy guys have ruined the entire game of deer hunting in KS.

Hunting fields is absolutely no comparison to a failure pile or feeder. I planted a tiny 2 acre plot once after I bought my property, and in an entire October of multiple sits, the bucks never came within bow range that year.

Conditioning a wild animal to come to feed a few feet diameter under your tree it just like training livestock, nothing more.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24

sitO's embedded Photo
sitO's embedded Photo
sitO's embedded Photo
sitO's embedded Photo
sitO's embedded Photo
sitO's embedded Photo
sitO's embedded Photo
sitO's embedded Photo
Oh Rod, you're so silly. Do you think anyone else could even conceive such a skewed analogy? I'd like to say "valiant effort", but it was really just a bunch of nonsense.

Ironically I've spent the day walking properties, looking for sheds...trails.. and natural deer sign. You, and others, spent the day resting on your laurels, struggling to find a way to justify poisoning and shooting trained animals.

I found random spots to actually "ambush" my prey. I'm lucky I get to spend the entire Fall hunting. You and the others should try it sometime...I think you'd enjoy it.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24

sitO's embedded Photo
sitO's embedded Photo

From: Ambush
05-Mar-24
Thanks you two, I think that’s pretty much what I just said. Thousands of acres of crop filled farmland and unpressured deer. Pretty sure if my gramma was still alive, she could kill in those conditions. All that and still bitter and resentful

Oh, and I don’t think you’ve ever heard me complain about my hunting lot or other hunter’s successes. Free yourself and maybe you can be content too.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
Think mee-maw would have trouble over a failure pile? C'mon man

At least in this scenario she'd actually be hunting, and she could be proud of her accomplishment.

From: Ambush
05-Mar-24
Yes, probably less work for her to just park her walker on the edge of one of your fields. Maybe play some tractor sounds on her phone and shake some seed bags. You know, call and rattle one in.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
Enjoy your nap.

From: Ambush
05-Mar-24
^^ Thanks! You do care!!

And then there will be one less jerk in this circle, too. Make it easier to see who wins.

05-Mar-24
A licking branch on that trail would be used by every deer in the area. Highly concentrated deer made that trail.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
Can't get rid of licking branches, but we can get rid of...(fill in the pile)

From: Thornton
05-Mar-24
Ambush- none of your statements are true at all and you are obviously misinformed or just ignorant to the conditions in KS. If you followed Kyle's hunts you would know it can take months sometimes to get a buck over 140" within bow range without failure piles on farms in KS, especially with the deer conditioned to the neighboring corn piles. Sometimes, Pat, the owner of this site doesn't get his target buck even over bait and 6,000 acres of the best deer ground we've got. That being said, he often passes some nice ones.

From: Ambush
05-Mar-24
You’re probably right. I don’t hunt farmland so I’m not in the know.

From: Thornton
05-Mar-24
Shot 2 of my biggest whitetails on public nowhere near a crop field. Closest was a mile away.

05-Mar-24
"If you followed Kyle's hunts you would know it can take months sometimes to get a buck over 140""

I dont know very many guys that can take that amout of time off. I personally have no desire to hunt 60 days in a row and not kill a deer. Other animals possibly but not a whitetail.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
Could have killed many deer, was after a couple of old ones, and I have pictures of those I passed...not just talk.

05-Mar-24

Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
This squirrel obviously has “HUNG” around the corn pile too long.

From: RK
05-Mar-24
Charlie. Kudos. To funny!

Your comments on follow the money were spot on

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
It's "too funny", follow the trail of dead dogs ;)

05-Mar-24
That squirrel has some real balls to hang around my corn pile.

From: RK
05-Mar-24
That shows what a true idiot you are. Did you not figure out what that was. You and Thornton should get a room

Way to funny.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
....and you're drunk

From: be still
05-Mar-24

be still's embedded Photo
be still's embedded Photo
Sorry I had a septic job that couldn’t wait.Gosh dang fellas. I just asked a few questions about benefits regarding wildlife health and y’all have turned into y’all trying to defend the ethical part of it. Nowhere here did I berate anybody on the ethical side of it. That does speak a little though in itself if somebody is being honest and paying attention here. Nearly speaks somebody is feeling maybe a touch of guilt? I don’t know…you tell me what it speaks.

Mule you asked me if I would be alright with acorns in a feeder. I’m going to ask you why would I gather them up to just put them in a feeder…why not just let them eat them when they fall from the tree. To answer your question though…no anymore I don’t like the idea of putting something out forcing them to eat out of the same tiny hole.

Alright as y’all can see I got this cat from New Jersey wanting attention. Ever since I stopped baiting I have became an a$$ licker and he makes weird comments. Think I heard he’s a police officer but with the Hello Kitty logos and his childish ways I hope y’all understand my reasoning for not answering all his questions.

And we got Mountaineer trying to tell another grown man to be quiet. Let me tell you something bud if I thought I was getting out of hand or trying to shame or be overbearing here I might take a step back and reconsider. Your keyboard comment followed with be quiet right after is unnecessary. Nobody on here up to that point was acting unruly in any kind of way but if you’re really thinking I’m a keyboard dude I reckon you’re sadly mistaken. First of all I got way too much involved up there in Kansas to be quiet. If an outfitter can fight for what he’s doing than I got that same right. What I’m trying to protect will last hopefully into the future. What their trying to protect is their pocketbook and the here and now.

Ambush…does this pic up above look like something like a few scattered corn cobs a farmer didn’t get out of his field? I should have asked you first. Are you a country or city dude? The 20 something years I hunted Missouri in all those cut corn fields I never did come across something like this. There is cut corn on the ground and then you have this…again coyote pissed stained critter crap pile of junk.

Fellas I can really see why Sito makes the comments he does. Also find it a little amusing. I’m not a political person at all but it’s like the people that don’t like Trump. Sito can say one word and y’all start chattering like little squirrels. Y’all start coming out y’all’s holes all bushy tailed running around falling out of branches like y’all ain’t got any sense.

Let me tell you something about Sito. I have never met the man….unfortunately we keep missing each other at the banquets. Every man I have run into at the banquets though tells me you won’t find a better man. Seems like half the stuff at the auctions are donated by him. He’s always seems to be letting somebody hunt his properties…has even let NRs if I’m not mistaken. His hunts are real and he definitely gives the animals he pursues a fair shot. He spends a lot of time and money towards the conservation of wildlife.

Then you got other people spending a lot of money on outfitters trying to put something on the wall. That very act in itself knocks out a lotta common folk. Those same people want to berate this man that’s in it for the right reason. Y’all ought to be ashamed of y’all selves.

From: RK
05-Mar-24
SitO I don't drink So on another level you are wrong. Shocking I'm sure LMAO

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
Telling

From: Ambush
05-Mar-24
be still; just change your handle to "Holier than thou, Now"

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
and change your's to "Bushleague"?

From: be still
05-Mar-24
Im’abush….if I changed my handle to that then I would start accusing people what they see is really not what they’re seeing…it’s only in their imagination. Sorry Im’abush I ain’t taking that road.

I reckon nobody wants to answer simple questions and take this seriously. They just want to get off subject so I guess it’s back to the fun and games.

05-Mar-24
Anti bait thinking is way more liberal thinking. Pro bait is way more conservative thinking.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
Baiting is welfare, and you support it. Get off yer a$$

05-Mar-24
Exercising my legal right giving to me by the state of Kansas. VS Trying to eliminate hunting rights in the state of Kansas.

From: sitO
05-Mar-24
All for supporting hunting, you aren't hunting

06-Mar-24

Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
John is a parpeligic (fell from a tree stand) but still uses a compound.
Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
John is a parpeligic (fell from a tree stand) but still uses a compound.
be still: I have no doubt Sit0 does a lot to promote the future of bow hunting. I hear that from guys all the time. Good for him. You mention you’ve never met him? Yet you assume Forest in a certain way based on what others say without ever meeting him??

I’ve known and Hunted all over North America with Forest the last 15 years. He is one of the most generous people I’ve ever met and I’m proud to call him my friend. Every year he donates a hunt or two for, auction, disabled person or kid hunt. (See pic) Additionally, he puts lease money in the hands of Kansas land owners and supports the local community in Kansas.

Many of the guys that hunt with Forest each year in Kansas (12-15 guys) end up shooting their best buck ever. We have a blast. Remember, there’s three sides to ever story, yours, mine and the truth. If/when baiting is eliminated in Kansas he’ll adjust. Get it done.

PS: Every time there’s a thread about this subject Forest books a hunter or two. How ironic.

Enjoy yourself, it’s later than you think.

From: T-rex
06-Mar-24
Well said Charlie. Forest is a great guy and it's funny that people who have never met him attack him because of their beliefs vs. his.... seems pretty fu%$in stupid.

Keep up the good fight Forest!

From: be still
06-Mar-24
Mr. Rehor…if that’s you on the right side you seem old enough to be shown respect even though if I’m not mistaken you’ve taken a few jabs at me on another thread. Could be mistaking it so if it was somebody else I apologize. I’m 48yrs old so I’ll take whatever and hopefully show you due respect given your age.

Tell me though sir…start at the top of the page here and repeat anything I said that I was assuming Forest was a certain way based on what others were saying. I’m pretty sure I was asking the man some honest questions to get my own feel of him. I’m not trying to be smart or condescending in any way here but would you please repeat from up above here my words that shows proof that I did that to this man?

From: RK
06-Mar-24
T-Rex. I agree, well said indeed Charlie. The consummate gentleman. We all could learn from you. I've only spoken to Forest once in my life. Looking forward to meeting him in April. You are correct threads like this one do have many positive results.

From: Mule Power
06-Mar-24
Does anyone here know the old dude on the right? lol!

It’s later than you think. I like that!

06-Mar-24
be still, I’m certain you aren’t my buddy now.

You spent the whole thread antagonizing the guy. Don’t blow smoke that you were civil. Civility doesn’t include that. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it

From: sitO
06-Mar-24
I'd say he was pretty civil, but you can make of it what you will.

One thing everyone knows is that baiting isn't hunting, that's common knowledge.

There's no "fight", but being on the side of baiting certainly isn't "good"...proven multiple times above.

From: Thornton
06-Mar-24
Ole Forrest spread some lies about me once. He has some friends in my hometown that have hunted the same property as I for almost 30 years. The owner died some years back because his cholesterol meds caused organ damage. His wife is now the owner, and actually owned most of the property before she even married her husband over half a century ago. She was born into a large landowner ranch family and inherited thousands of acres. My mother went through school with her and they are friends. This lady and her late husband has let me hunt the property for 28 years. Forrest friends keep hunting it without permission and have not asked permission since the husband died. They sneaked in a few years ago, and the girlfriend of one of the clan shot a 180"s I was after over a corn pile. They kept it off social media but I got my friend's sister to getbthe girl to confess after I recognized the buck on a private post.They drive in, right up to their corn piles to fill feeders and trespass across the corner on a nearby lease to get there. Everyone around there hates to step on toes, so nobody has put a stop to them driving through the lease. About ten years ago, the main guy of the trespassers called the warden on me and lied, saying I was actually the one without permission. I made a phonecall and cleared it up, but not before the warden had a mental meltdown over ne owning a silencer. After that, the dumb SOB that is Forrest's friend puts up a stand on my fence line at my farm after following my semi live hunts. As soon as the landowner died, the stand was removed. Then, Forrest claims he met a cousin of mine in a coffee shop that said I was killing all the deer around my place. As usual, it was another lie and all 6 bucks between the neighbor and I were investigated by the area warden from Emporia and he ruled they all died from EHD. I've only killed 7 bucks off my property in the last 13 years. These same friends of Forrest were once granted permission to hunt a 160 south of town managed by a friend of mine. He decided to start hunting it himself and requested they remove their stands. They kept hunting it while he was gone, so he took their stands and locked the gates.

06-Mar-24
I just told you what they said about ya buddy. Maybe they are all making up lies about ya.

07-Mar-24
I don't hunt deer over bait. That said,

Midwest WT hunting is already one of the easiest physical hunts there is. It requires the least amount of walking, the least amount of elevation climbing, the least amount of remote travel, is the easiest tag to get, can generally be done from your home or hotel without overnight travel into the bush, is one of the highest populations of big game on the continent and has some of the highest average number of game per square mile over a given area. (Not in universal terms, but in general). There is no other big game animal in North America that a bow hunter could literally feed a village with.

There are only a few things that make it more challenging like hunting with a bow and hunting public land. But above all else, the one thing that makes it a difficult hunt is the chess game that is required when hunting mature bucks.

If you just want to slay big game animals, the Midwest WT deer is by far the easiest effort:meat and time:meat ratio hunt there is. The chess game that is... killing mature WT bucks, is the single most difficult thing about the entire venture. And I think all or most of us here would agree that getting an arrow into a mature WT buck is a difficult thing to do.

Baiting takes a slice out of that chess game and to those that say that hunting over bait is no sure thing, of course it isn't a sure thing. But if it didn't work/help then why do it? People do it because it's effective. Because you can bait and have animals come to the specific spot where the bait is and eat it. I've sat on even 1 acre planted parcels where I didn't have a bow shot on a shooter buck. Multiple times. Bait brings animals to a specific spot and that makes it easier.

IMO, it stacks a card in the game and the fact that so many people do it is evidence thereof. If it didn't work, you wouldn't do it.

On a personal level, that game is everything to me. So whether or not you want to admit that baiting is detrimental to wildlife or not, I still say sitO has a legitimate reason to have righteous indignation for the reason of the game being stacked even if it doesn't harm wildlife, although it is at least hypothesized that it does, which is a big deal to conservation-minded people, so again, he's righteous.

Everyone of us on here are passionate about hunting, sitO included. Deer hunting is a sacred thing. In his estimation, you cheapen that sacred thing by baiting, so he's going to look down on you if you do it. I understand guys not wanting to be looked down upon, but you're doing something that's offensive to him, so what else would you expect?

It's perfectly legal to snort up a loogie and spit it on the ground in front of ladies and you won't hurt anyone by doing it. But some of us look down on guys that would do that. It's also perfectly legal to tell dirty jokes in mixed company or cuss in church. Legality and "lack of hurting someone/something" often times have very little to do with things being socially acceptable or looked down upon.

Where I live in interior AK, moose hunting is the big thing around here. Most people on this website from the lower 48 would think of a moose hunt as a backcountry adventure or even a dream hunt. But most of my neighbors just drive around in their trucks or ATVs and shoot moose with a rifle, often times on the side of the road. It's completely non-romantic and unadventurous.

They have their reasons for it and mostly it's because they're just trying to fill the freezer. Likewise, people I work with think I'm crazy to hunt with a bow on foot, but we look at it differently. Yes, I'm trying to fill the freezer too and I eat game meat twice a day year round, but I'm also in it for the game, the adventure, and I'm a little bit of a trophy hunter as well, so by driving around in my truck and shooting something on the side of the highway, it cheapens that. If I shot a moose on the side of the road, I couldn't hang that rack on my wall because I'd be caught between not having pride in it and feeling silly about it, even though a big bull moose rack is a dream of most American hunters.

And it's sort of the same way with WT deer. It's bizarre to some people to take the most difficult part of WT hunting, specifically trying to kill mature bucks, especially with a bow, but then cheapen that accomplishment by baiting in order to make it a little easier. You can argue that it doesn't make it much easier, but the quantity is irrelevant - maybe not to you, but to other people it is.

And I think a lot of people's defensiveness comes from the fact that deep down, they know they're making it easier on themselves, but while they don't care about that fact enough to not do it because the degree to which the experience is cheapened is insignificant or non-existent to them, they don't like getting called on it because they don't like the fact that someone would look down on them for it.

You can't have it both ways. Hunt over bait if you want, but don't expect everyone to think that what you're doing is on the same level as getting it done without bait. Most people are fine with it and if you're fine with it, then knock yourself out. But thinking that any man is exempt from catching shit about anything is just silly.

From: Thornton
07-Mar-24
Your friends are squatters and baiters. I'm still hunting the property with permission from the actual owner after 28 years. Shot my first antlered buck on the place when I was 15, and shot a doe there this year at age 42. As for my distant cousin Ryan, I had never spoken to him in my life until about 5 years ago. The only thing we have in common is the same last name and i actually have no idea how we're related. He is not a hunter, and started finding dead bucks. As any nonhunter would, assumed someone was killing them, and I'm always out there shooting. I've put more money, time, and effort into increasing buck size and numbers, than a dozen hunters do in a lifetime, and my results are proof. If you have any questions feel free to look me up in person like I did that time to you at the gas station instead of proofless gossip.

From: Boreal
07-Mar-24
"but I got my friend's sister to getbthe girl to confess"

I don't know anything about this drama but this made me laugh for some reason.

From: bowwild
07-Mar-24
Ambush, No I don't include the bait pile. That was my point, my ethic in this regard is inconsistent. In fact, I turned down offers to accompany friends on bear hunts for a few years because of the bait deal. Then I tried it. I liked it.

From: KSflatlander
07-Mar-24
"Anti bait thinking is way more liberal thinking. Pro bait is way more conservative thinking."

This made me laugh. What the hell does baiting have to do with political ideology. Dumb post. Leave it up to a Trumper to insert politics into anything and everything even when it has nothing to do with it.

I'll be a character witness for Sito. From personal experience he has offered to pay, and paid, for several posters membership into the Kansas Bowhunters Association. The guy passes it on and puts his money where his mouth is. He's a funny dude and a good guy who gives a #%^* about KS archery hunting and fair chase.

If you are baiting you aren't hunting. Baiting also has a negative impact on support from non-hunters. Even non-hunters in support of hunting recognize that it's cheating.

From: Ambush
07-Mar-24
“… baiting makes it easier..”

“… so expect to get looked down on…”

Well, at least we have finally legitimized the right of trad bow hunters to look down on compound bow hunters.

From: crestedbutte
07-Mar-24

crestedbutte's embedded Photo
crestedbutte's embedded Photo
Well said Ike!!! Like few on here….I “HUNT” deer I don’t bait and “SHOOT” deer. Anyone that is baiting and calling it “hunting” are fooling yourselves. Really sad if you guys are teaching the next generation to also bait and shoot. Man up and teach’em to “HUNT.” In the end, I bet those young hunters will respect you a lot more for it.

If you have a deer head of any kind hanging on a wall that was “shot” over bait, do me a favor and walk over to it and place this on the wall next to it….*

From: APauls
07-Mar-24
Just out of curiosity are Cougars hunted over dogs hunted or are they simply shot? If you just walk in day 1 of your elk hunt and sit a waterhole and kill a bull did you hunt or did you shoot?

It's funny cause I would have no issue with baiting being illegal it already is where I hunt, but I just have to point out what I think are logical issues. Idyll, everything you said makes sense. The only major difference here is that sitO isn't simply trying to let everyone know that he looks down on them for their version of hunting. He wants their version of hunting gone. It's like if I thought hound hunting for cats was immoral and therefore tried to have it eliminated from being legal. I'm no longer simply looking down on them for their way of hunting, I am trying to have it removed because I don't like it. Now if baiting really turns out to be an ecological train wreck - hey all the more reason to have it gone. I've just never seen the ecological train wreck in Canada, and maybe even the opposite. I also get a little touchy about any step in making any type of hunting illegal whether I agree with it or not, because no steps are EVER taken in the opposite direction. So anything you lose will be lost forever. It's just another chink in the armour.

From: sitO
07-Mar-24
Apples -> oranges Adam, you know the difference

Please don't wait until it's the "ecological trainwreck" we have here in KS

From: Slate
07-Mar-24
Adam some awesome animals you have killed. Congratulations.

From: KB
07-Mar-24
Good stuff Ike.

These threads have been heavily Kansas-centric, if you will, the last couple years as that’s where the most serious discussion regarding baiting is/has taken place. The department has continually told hunters they advise against baiting based on the science. They laid out the science and have, for now, left it up to hunters to decide because they’re largely handcuffed by state government and money with regards to making a change. I think a nonresident outfitter balking at that stance/science and telling folks he baits as a management tool (to select older bucks) when the department has asked for no such action brings out even stronger opinions on the matter. Those opinions then get twisted and projected onto folks’ practices in other regions with completely different wildlife dynamics. It can be that corn piles in Kansas are a serious negative on wildlife as a whole, yet bear baiting in Alaska for example, where black bears clean up as much as 50% of the local blacktail fawn crop is incredibly necessary and beneficial. Predators should be managed by any means necessary in my opinion. Don’t let some thoughts on corn piles in Kansas ruffle your feathers about wolf trapping, bear management, or lion hunting. They really have nothing in common and would significantly shorten these threads I think. :)

From: Ambush
07-Mar-24
Dry fly fishers look down on nymph fishers, nymph fishers look down on hardware casters, hardware casters look down on trollers and trollers look down on bobber fishers. Most of us would call any of that elitist snobbery. I hope anyway. Would anybody say that anyone of those methods was not "fishing"?

Do you really need a dog to find and flush your birds? Cheating if you ask me, find the sign and hunt the birds yourself. Flush'em and shoot'em. Lazy and for sure you're not hunting, the dog is, you're just a shooter.

I don't have a problem with people trying to eliminate baiting and in a place like Kansas it might well open up more ground for those that don't have the luxury of private to hunt. When landowners can't lease out for profit, then they might be more inclined to give permission.

But I do have a problem with people looking down on people with different perspectives. Its one thing to say you disagree with the method of hunting but to say that they are not hunting is pure elitist snobbery bullshit. To say their animal is illegitimate is the height of arrogance. They are indeed hunting, just not like you would like it done. Foam and fume all you want, they are still hunting. I'd say 95% of whitetail hunters are perfectly happy with whatever deer they shoot, doe, spike, fork or basket rack. Even better, they don't give a shit about "your standards".

And KSflatlander, I'm especially disappointed in you as you sit in your treestand on private land next to ag crops. Of all people I'd expect tolerance and acceptance of divergent beliefs from you.

07-Mar-24
Ambush, a more accurate comparison would be if bass tournaments in one lake allowed live bait and bass tournaments on another lake required artificial lures only. Of course the bass fishermen that catch a 6 pounder on an artificial lure did something more significant than one that ate a shiner. Your comparison works great if comparing archery to rifle and things like that, but discussing bait and no bait it changes the “fishes” movement and actions in its entirety.

From: sitO
07-Mar-24
Placing artificial food sources trains the animal to come to a certain pre-determined spot...and sometimes even at a pre-set time. Not sure what part of that you don't understand Rod?

From: Ambush
07-Mar-24
Actually, the only thing I don't understand is your obsessive disdain for hunters that want to do things differently than you. Can't you fight for your cause without giving in to the leftist mentality of shaming, haranguing and cancel culture?

The guy that dusts off his old, cheap single shot twenty gauge, walks a skid trail and ground sluices a couple grouse and then walks back whistling and enjoying the sunshine is a hunter. Just as much as the dressed up dude with the heirloom, double hammer English SXS and the kennel bought and trained brace of Brittanies, only shooting pointed and boot flushed birds on the rise.

Basically how someone else defines their hunting is not your prevue. What part of that don't you understand?

From: KSflatlander
07-Mar-24
Ambush- I get your point and I stated my opinion in an internet discussion forum made to discuss these issues. I consider a doe taken any way with fair chase more of a trophy than a 180" buck under a feeder. I have acquaintances that use feeders like the guy who leases the property adjacent to me. When the subject of baiting comes up with those that do bait, I tell them I don't consider it hunting and think it should be outlawed. Then we exchange hunting stories for a bit and I bid him "good luck" and go about my business.

If you can tell me where the shooter buck is going to enter the 400 acre bean field daily then step up. A 400 acre ag field is not the same as a corn pile but that seems to be your only argument...even if it's really weak and not Apple to apples comparison.

But you have made a secondy point with you ag field analogy. I don't train deer to come within shooting distance of my stand. I move my stand to where they are active. And it changes every year. Actually hunting them.

A 400 acre corn field is not the same as a corn pile with a stand 10 yards from the feeder...no matter how many times you say it. The intent of planting crops is not to attract deer (99% of the time). It will be on the landscape regardless if I hunt or not. Ag fields don't lure a deer to a single point every time they feed in it. It's not the same.

And don't act like you've always been perfectly civil in all Bowsite interaction because I've seen you give it pretty well too.

From: Ambush
07-Mar-24
^^^ So four hundred acres is the minimum size crop you (will) hunt.

Funny, I see pics and read descriptions of real hunters sitting on small plots and fields or in the twenty yard wide funnel between fields.

Maybe give the minimum size plot that would be considered hunting. Nobody else has answered that yet.

From: sitO
07-Mar-24
You can't see the difference between an artificially placed pile and an entire field? It's insanity.

It's not just "doing something different" Rod, it's training an animal like Pavlov. None of your comparisons hold water. I know you know this, yet you keep throwing out excuses to try and justify...it can't be justified I'm sorry.

From: KSflatlander
07-Mar-24
I used 400 acres because that's the size of the ag field where I hunt. I have small food plots but they are on the edge of idle ag fields. With that said, I've not killed any of my bucks on the wall in a food plot. Now that I think about it I've never killed any deer in a food plot. I have many stands not associated with any food plots. In addition, food plots are not just to attract deer for me personally. They are beneficial for a lot of non-game and other wildlife, the cover habitat, insects, pollinators, turkeys, rodents, owls, snakes, etc. My food plots are surrounded by bean, corn, and Milo fields so food is not limiting. But deer are like any other organism, they will often take the food source that require the least amount of energy to get...like a corn pile.

Truth be told I couldn't let an arrow fly at any deer eating from a pile of corn. I think it's unethical IMO. Honestly, I'm not just hunting to kill. I hunt the way I hunt because I feel that me and the deer are on an equal and fair playing field. Actually, the odds of getting away is better than me filling my tag because I don't tag out every year. I think baiting is an unfair advantage.

If you think your comparison of an ag field is valid then take a couple 50lb bags of corn and evenly spread it throughout 400 acres of any habitat and hunt it. See how well you can train a buck to stand in a certain location. Hell, try that in a 1 acre area. That is a more legit comparison vs the one you put forth.

From: TMac
07-Mar-24
Ike you nailed it on many fronts in my opinion. But how one hunts is their business and if legal who am I to judge.

From: Bowfreak
07-Mar-24
A few years ago I planted a small food plot (measured in square feet vs acres) of clover a couple hundred yards from my house. I killed a doe, a 140” 9 pointer and a 120” 10 pointer there in two years. It didn’t matter where they stepped out, they were in range. I quit hunting this failure plot and started challenging myself by hunting corn piles.

From: KB
07-Mar-24
Picture this one Ambush/Bowfreak/any of the other diehard corn pile proponents. One of my favorite places in the world to hunt whitetails is in a sea of nothing in western Kansas. It’s just a patchwork of crop land and CRP with some 4-8’ tall kochia draws scattered in the low spots. If you stand on a badger mound you might catch a glimpse of two or three cottonwoods a mile or two away from a 140 year old fallen in farmstead. No “pinch points”, “funnels”, or deer pattern of any sort whatsoever. It produces nearly all of the truly giant bucks I’ve seen in my lifetime. And hunting it beats the hell out of sitting in a tree any day, for me. Guys put up tower stands and feeders in this country because they can’t fathom you could get into bow range any other way. It’s generally pretty effective as food is otherwise scattered and there aren’t many places a buck can come check for does with regularity. Say a fellow leases an 80 of CRP in this neck of the woods and puts a tower/feeder combo square in the middle. He kills his buck on an early October cold front but decides to keep up with the baiting through the rest of the season because he wants to keep tabs on 5-6 other bucks. Then he decides to keep at it through the winter in hopes a handful of the bucks will shed on his place. By then he puts out some mineral blocks and maybe a little grain for velvet pictures. And on and on. Meanwhile pheasants and quail visit his sites routinely. A couple bobcats frequent weekly and pick off a few here and there. Redtail hawks post up on the tower because it’s the only show in town and snag a few chicks that visit with mom throughout the summer. Coyotes keep an eye on because there’s mice and rabbits but occasionally they luck into a bird or fawn that starts following mom around. Now extrapolate that scenario across most of the region and start doing the math. Doesn’t take much at each site. Meanwhile this type of fellow has the balls and/or just stupidity to tell his buddies “there just aren’t many pheasants around any more.” Or “my muley population is sure down these days.” Blames it on weather or lack of habitat, etc. But refuses to look in the mirror to see he is absolutely contributing. All because killing a buck in October wasn’t enough, but he has to keep an eye on things year round. You guys can pretend it doesn’t have an effect because your landscape is different or you don’t see it first hand. But it absolutely does have a compounding affect with the current state of affairs in that part of the world. It needs to be done away with in Kansas immediately.

From: Ambush
07-Mar-24
Picture this KB. I’m not a proponent of big corn piles. I don’t hunt Kansas. I hardly hunt whitetails at all. I’m just not willing to trash talk other hunters if they are legally engaged in hunting the way they want. Get it banned and then trash the folks that still do it.

There is exactly one person on here that goes to other’s post and trash talks those hunter. It’s the same guy that goes on the meat pole threads and trash talks there. His standard reply on all those threads is:

“Nice animal and you hunted him too” You get the implication.

“Nice animal, but too bad you didn’t hunt him”.

I don’t vote in Kansas. I don’t lobby in Kansas. I have no stake in Kansas. And by now Kansas is sounds like a place I’d like to avoid.

But there have been no answers to the questions I’ve asked other than ”.. you’re stupid, but you knew that. “ and it’s obvious there will be none.

And I solemnly swear to never darken another Kansas anti thread again.

From: sitO
07-Mar-24
Rod, your questions are rhetorical. Baiting/training an animal is not the same as hunting that animal. It's a very simple concept, I'm sorry if that offends you...kinda

07-Mar-24
KB: Rod is right, you Kansas guys need a plan. Why do I never see an update on your progress in state? It does no good to merely berate us NR for our evil ways.

There’s nobody on Bowsite that can change Kansas laws. What is KBA doing to convince Kansas residents a change is needed? You need numbers and Persuasion with Kansas residents.

To rely on Non-Residents will not work. If you make some progress and need help from NR’s let us know and those that support will help but nothing will happen unless you convince your Residents.

From: sitO
07-Mar-24
Charlie, many have spoken at the KDWP commission meetings, many more have sent emails/called the Commissioners. We, unfortunately, have a few legislators that only care about money...nothing about the health or structure of the herd.

I've posted links here before, but little response. Blame it on me I guess?

From: be still
07-Mar-24
Mr. Rehor Kansas doesn’t work that way with residents. If Kansas did what residents wanted NRs wouldn’t be up there to begin with including myself. Or maybe I should say a lot less NRs. If I would take a guess they would love to have Iowa’s model. The problem is that there is too many outfitters up there making money on NRs coming in. You got one resident outfitter up there threatening KDWP to take a million right off the top of their budget if KDWP bans it.

What would help if we could convince the outfitters and NRs that it’s not doing any good for the wildlife and that you don’t need it to hunt animals.

From: Thornton
07-Mar-24
Standard reply from someone that has no stake in KS, has no stake in deer hunting or management in Kansas, has no stake in anything KS, yet his feelings are hurt because someone said something to someone else that hurt his feelings, so now he's got to say something.

From: RK
07-Mar-24
SitO what you don't have is influence. Obviously Evidently that's not going to happen any time soon

You know you can't make things happen without support.

I doubt any of the people in power know that corn is poisoning deer and other wildlife. THAT is a strong position. Killing deer with corn should get someone's attention. That's a serious deal

We are lucky in Texas. Our corn is not poisonous. If it was I would be the first to lobby to get rid of it for deer or whatever it is poisoning

Good luck to you guys. Serious problem for sure

I may look into a lawyer that might help you with the poison corn. He is a good one. East coast but a bull dog. Big time hunter and he will not like hearing that your deer are being poisoned. I'll let you know.

From: sitO
07-Mar-24
RK, when/if you learn to read there's quite a bit of relevant factual evidence...much has been posted above, take a moment.

While you're at it, enlighten me as to the CWD regs in TX...things are changing. Keep your head buried, keep making that "gold", it's all about you.

07-Mar-24
Its been my observation over the last 12 years that more Kansas residents use bait than dont. Im just guessing this is probably the biggest hurdle.

From: RK
07-Mar-24
Good lord SitO. I go to every thing in Texas related to CWD in Texas. We have some areas that we outfit in that may have issues and some that do not.

Get a grip. You are not the end all on the subject. I've probably forgotten more about CWD than you ever knew

Relax dude, working together is the cure or some answer in dealing with all of this

Stop trying to be some hero for the cause

From: sitO
07-Mar-24
Well RK, if I thought for a moment you were sincere I might listen...I don't. I know what you want, it's the same thing Forest wants...the "easy button", and you dont care whom or what suffers along the way.

No need to try and pander, that's transparent, you do you...I choose to hunt.

From: Bowfreak
07-Mar-24
I wouldn’t care in the least if baiting was made illegal tomorrow in Kentucky. I just don’t believe the sky is falling. I also know that every state that allows baiting has biologists that work for them too.

From: RK
07-Mar-24
You choose to hunt. What a lame position

I have done this for 40 years. How old are you SitO?? You have zero, no idea what I want.

What's laughable is that you think I want anything

I'm way past That. I have no idea what Forest wants Why would I. Why would I care?

You are so insecure in your position that you can't even communicate . Sad dude, way sad. And that crushes your credibility

What do you want and what do you think you need to accomplish your mission. Bet you cannot communicate that.

Does not matter. You are one of a hundred through the years that had a plan to fix the hunting community. None did it because they could not communicate. Your are the same Nothing new

From: sitO
07-Mar-24
Man I'm trying hard to "cipher" your posts, it's like "Bowsite on the Spectrum"

I can't tell if you're asking me out, or trying to vet me for some clandestine "order of the hand"?

From: RK
07-Mar-24
Perfect. That's where you will continue to mess up and never reach your goal.

Good luck and great successes. Look forward to meeting you next year

From: sitO
07-Mar-24
Ok, again I don't know what that means, but good luck to you "too"?

From: KsRancher
08-Mar-24
As a kansas resident that wishes baiting would be banned. I have yet to hear very many arguments by people that I think would be good reason for it to be banned. But the people that want to keep it legal I don't hear very good arguments from them either. That is until KB's post up there. That seems like a good thing that I could get behind if a person goes using those points.

08-Mar-24
Great post KB.

From: Thornton
08-Mar-24
RK- You're not a biologist, just some old guy that makes his living killing animals and killing dogs that may affect you killing animals. You saying anything at all shows a conflict of interest.

https://www.ksnt.com/kansasoutdoors/what-are-the-downsides-of-baiting-feeding-practices-in-kansas-biologists-weigh-in/

This one is from the NIH National Institute of Health:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8388532/#:~:text=However%2C%20baiting%20wildlife%20can%20alter,competition%2C%20and%20susceptibility%20to%20predation.

From: Thornton
08-Mar-24
Forest- 25 years ago, nobody in the county used bait, except your friend FR.

From: Thornton
08-Mar-24
From the NIH study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8388532/#:~:text=However%2C%20baiting%20wildlife%20can%20alter,competition%2C%20and%20susceptibility%20to%20predation.

"Our findings of an effect of bait on third-order selection support previous work indicating that baiting can increase deer-to-deer contact rates [18]. Increased contact rates could ultimately lead to higher transmission rates of diseases in susceptible areas [40,41]. Direct contact between deer is not uncommon in natural settings where bait sites are not present; however, these behaviors are typically associated with small social groups [42,43]. Short-term baited surveys, such as the Jacobson et al. [5] survey, also require continual bait replenishment over time at a single location where a camera is present, likely exacerbating contamination levels [18]."

In addition to providing assessments of both second- and third-order selection, SCR models yield estimates of home range size as well as abundance, which is a primary objective of many camera surveys. At all sites, the spatial scale parameter (?) associated with home range size was approximately two times larger in the winter than in the summer, consistent with the studies reviewed by Marchinton and Hirth [43]. From their work in agricultural landscapes, Nixon et al. [29] and Brinkman et al. [44] reported that deer home ranges were more than twice as large in the winter than in summer. In our study area in southwestern Georgia, reduced home range size during the summer is likely the result of greater cover and forage than in the winter.

Baiting has become a contentious issue in deer management as it has the potential to impact behavior, harvest susceptibility and disease transfer. Although there are many mechanisms by which bait may influence deer populations, most research has focused on the effects of bait on selection at a single spatial scale. Our work presents a framework for assessing the influence of bait on multiple spatial scales, and we have demonstrated that the effects may differ between spatial scales."

From: Thornton
08-Mar-24
https://www.alabamawildlife.org/uploadedFiles/Deer%20Management%20Issues.pdf

DEER MANAGEMENT ISSUES BAITING / SUPPLEMENTAL FEEDING A. DISEASE 1. In Michigan, where bovine Tuberculosis (TB) exists in wild deer and elk, scientists believe that the maintenance of bovine TB in white-tailed deer is directly related to supplemental feeding/baiting and the increased focal densities these practices create (Schmitt et al. 1977). The unnatural circumstances of supplemental feeding promote inhalation of bovine TB bacteria or consumption of feed contaminated with the bacteria from animals coughing and exhaling (Schmitt et al. 1997). 2. Although it is difficult to attribute the spread of disease to deer density alone, some disease problems occur more commonly in areas of high density (Eve 1981), such as might occur with baiting. 3. The evidence that deer baiting causes the spread of diseases is well documented (McCaffery 2000, Mich. DNR 1999). 4. Large quantities of grain, or the sudden ingestion of feed high in carbohydrates without acclimation results in acidic conditions in a deer's rumen (stomach). This kills the bacteria necessary for digestion and causes bloating, diarrhea, enteritis, and in extreme cases death. The visible affects on deer include lameness, arthritis, and a decrease in appetite (Lyons 2000). This condition reportedly occurs yearly in Michigan (Mich. DNR 1999). During a severe winter in Saskatchewan 30% of the deer found dead near cattle feedlots were diagnosed with lactic acidosis (Wobster and Runge 1975). Deer have been found dead and suffering due to this condition in Wisconsin, but the widespread affect is not known (Langenberg 2001). 5. Tuberculosis, a bacterial disease of the respiratory system, can be injurious to deer, cattle and humans (Hyde 1998, Schmitt et al. 1997). 6. Aflatoxin are extremely toxic chemicals produced by two molds, Aspergillus flavus and Aspergillus parasiticus, which are widely associated with moldy corn. Aflatoxins can lower deer reproduction and cause mortality of wild turkey, quail, songbirds and mourning doves (Davis 1996). 7. Despite supplemental feeding, wildlife populations may exhibit poor physical condition and experience malnutrition if their numbers grow to exceed the amount of nourishment provided by the supplemental food. As examples, white-tailed deer on Long Island in Lake Winnespesaukee, New Hampshire, and on Monhegan Island, Maine, were in much poorer condition than mainland deer, even though both island deer populations were supplementally fed by residents (Lavigne and Dumont 1996, Weber 1997). Supplemental feeding does not prevent malnourishment - it just increases the population size at which malnourishment occurs (Pekin and Tarr 1997). 8. Perhaps the best cumulation of arguments against supplemental feeding was most recently produced by the Wildlife Management Institute (Williamson 2000). In this easily readable and well-referenced brochure, Scott Williamson, formerly a biologist in Texas, states, "When and where such feeding is done, it is undertaken only, if not expressly-for the interest of people, because fed animals almost invariably will not benefit and will very likely be harmed by the practice." 9. The provision of food to wildlife has been implicated widely as a causative factor that increases the occurrence of infectious disease. Animals are attracted to artificial sources of feed in higher density than normally occurs under natural conditions (Thorne and Herriges 1992, Williams et al. 1993, Fischer et al. 1997). As animal density increases, competition for food also increases resulting in more frequent contact among individuals (Baker and Hobbs 1985, Schmitt et al. 1997). Contact can be direct through physical contact, or indirect as occurs when two animals share the same portion of food. If one or more animals are harboring an infectious organism or prion, its transmission to uninfected individuals is facilitated by the increased frequency of contact among animals congregating at the feeding site (Miller et al. 1998, Michigan Bovine TB Eradication Project 2002). It is also suggested stress from crowding reduces immunocompetence in some animals, increasing the likelihood of disease (Smith and Roffe 1994, Smith 2001). Disease can affect individual animals, populations, or communities. Depending on the nature of the disease and the feeding location, disease can be transmitted within or between species (Schmitt et al. 1997, Smith 2001), between wildlife and domestic animals (Thorne and Herriges 1992), or even between wildlife and humans (Rupprecht et al. 1995). Non-infectious disease also can occur when wild species are fed foods incompatible with their digestive function (Wobster and Runge 1975), foods of poor nutritional quality (Ohio Wildlife Center 2000), or spoiled foods that have become toxic (Perkins 1991, Davis 1996, Breed 2002). 10. High concentrations of deer around feeding and baiting sites facilitate disease transmission through increased animal-to-animal contact and possibly through contamination of feed (Palmer et al. 2001, Schmitt et al. 2002). 11. In Fort Collins, Colorado, artificial feeding by private citizens is believed to have contributed to the infection of 49 free-ranging cervids with chronic wasting disease (Spraker et al. 1997). Experimental and circumstantial evidence suggests infected animals probably transmit the disease through animal-to-animal contact, and through contamination of food or water sources with body fluids (saliva, urine) and feces (Williams and Young 1980, Miller et al. 1998) Further, conditions of high animal density or confinement can create conditions where transmission of CWD occurs at a faster rate than under natural conditions (Miller et al. 2000). 12. White-tailed deer receiving artificial feed in Maine have suffered from outbreaks of demodectic mange caused by the spread of mites while at feeding stations (Maine Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife 2002, see www.state.me.us/ifw/hunt/deerfeed.htm). 13. Winter feeding of white-tailed deer can lead to starvation of some individuals if the feeding delays the migration of deer to their winter yards, or if artificial feeding is terminated abruptly (Ozoga and Verme 1982). 14. Recent epidemiological research suggests that baiting and feeding of deer enabled the TB outbreak in Michigan to persist and spread and that declines in TB prevalence were associated with a ban on baiting and feeding (O'Brien et al 2002).

From: Thornton
08-Mar-24
Anybody else? I feel like I'm talking to the dense kid in the back of the classroom with a para and a home tutor that still doesn't get it.

From: Matte
08-Mar-24
Deer numbers are down in the western 2/3rds of the state. Kansas has some catching up to do. We need to move to an 80/25 split including all NR even if they have the lifetime. Get Smaller GMUs out west and go back to choose your weapon. Plain and simple we are behind in having a structure like Colorado's 5 year plan for Elk. We need a 5 year plan every 5 years to mitigate disease and technology.

From: be still
08-Mar-24
Yes a very good read KB. Thornton thank you for taking the time to post the facts.

Another point to ponder with the guys that don’t live there and don’t necessarily hunt there or haven’t put too much thought into the baiting issue. The guys that use the argument…well this state here uses bait and it seems to haven’t that big of a negative impact.

I think everybody on here would agree that in the lower 48 the Midwest is the area known for quality whitetails. Before 2017 I was hunting Missouri when I was traveling for whitetails. All I heard back a long time ago was Kansas was the place to be. I read some nothing awhile back that as it currently stands out of the current 9 midwest states Kansas is the only one that doesn’t have any baiting restrictions on private.

So think about it when it started years ago. A state with huge deer, in 1995 they started allowing NRs, large areas with not many people, a lot of those same areas where it’s easier to kill because of the landscape, good hearted people, and most importantly you’re allowed to bait.

That people is what you call a perfect storm for outfitters and realtors. I don’t care what you think but money causes people to do some funny things and a lot of the time it’s not for the good. Like I said earlier those huge piles of corn up above were put there by a guy that was using it to get pics to sell the place. The guy that I talked to and met up there the other day had just bought it and added big gravity and more big piles just so he could flip it. When I was standing there he had just put the corn out and he was going to list the property next week. Meanwhile we have deer running around crapping diarrhea which I had seen one with my own eyes cause there is not a corn field in sight and they have just literally been spoon fed with tons of it.

So we’re making them sick and here’s another bad thing. This is big hill cattle country that if I had to guess I would say that country should maybe produce about one mature buck every 600 to 1000 acres as it currently stands. He told me face to face he was planning on breaking it up into smaller parcels that if you averaged it out was going to be less than 300 acres. Very nice guy but he was there to make money…plain and simple. He was from out of state by the way.

You got outfitters putting it out cause they have clients coming from out of state that doesn’t want to spend much time there. They also put it out for pics too. If you’re familiar with Kansas you know it is filled with outfitters. Probably more so than any other state and it has caused a dramatic decrease in resident hunting. Again probably more so than any other state.

You want to complain about high beef prices. Again look at the lovely state of Kansas. In that big hill cattle country realtors and outfitters has caused that country to rise per acre so much that local cattle farmers cannot compete. If you’re a cow guy and you do the math on the numbers you can’t make it work just with guys at the price it is at. One of my farmer/rancher friends last year wanted me to go in with him to help buy some ground cause he knew I would let him run cows on it. It’s gotten to the point they can’t hardly afford it.

I told my realtor friend the other day though. You let this deer herd keep slipping and when it gets to the point where there is not many at all and those land prices will drop like a rock. You talk about people running and getting out. Be good for the local farmers and ranchers though.

I’m not good good with my words but picture 9 states with gold mining and all but one didn’t allow panning. That one state that did allow panning also was known for huge gold nuggets back in the day. You can imagine the crowds that would flock there and use that practice to make money.

Maybe you live in a state that allows baiting but is it not used to this extent. Too much of a good thing can be harmful. Now baiting I don’t even consider a good thing but maybe in certain areas all around the states if used in small portions the harmful affects might not seen as clearly.

Right now if you look at deer as prostitutes Kansas is getting whored out. There’s a whore house on nearly every corner and you got men from out of state that has grown tired of their wives back home. The women in Kansas are prettier and when their phone dings with a notification they open it up to see that picture they get all excited. They call the Pimp and see how fast they can get up there. There is definitely some under-age requirements that are getting broken in this practice as well. They ain’t used to the women looking that mature at that early of an age and sometimes they ain’t evening asking about it.

Again all joking aside…just because you can’t see where baiting has caused some damage in your area doesn’t mean it’s not being overused somewhere in an area where it is.

08-Mar-24
Matte, as a NR, I would absolutely get behind that. I'm not sure it's fair to pull the rug out from under lifetime license holders and there's potentially legal issues with that, but if management in KS was more like IA, I can only see the quality of the hunt in KS improving, which is ultimately one thing that everyone wants.

From: Buckdeer
08-Mar-24
The TB issue is probably more serious than CWD,CWD will be here forever just like,EHD,and anthrax.I saw where in other countries that are really fighting TB in their cattle herds that main transmitter is badgers.Problem on bowsite is no one on here is fighting to ban or not to ban supplemental feeding because the know something.It's based on personal wants and beliefs.There are states that don't see feeding as an issue that have just as good of biologist's as the states that are banning it.Some states feed the deer and elk herds themselves.

From: KB
08-Mar-24
Ike, as a NR lifetime license holder myself I wouldn’t mind seeing some changes. I’ve emailed commission members about adding us to the regular NR draw system and taking our tags off the top before regular applicants. Also mentioned charging us full price for the tag as to not effect the dollars involved. They’d probably make up the difference in our current tag revenues in points sold to a handful more unsuccessful applicants. However, with all the current uproar over quotas as they are and NR tags getting harder to draw by the year I don’t think they’re terribly interested in that type of change. I’ve gotten very little feedback on it.

Charlie, quite a few Bowsiters and KBA members have spoken up at commission meetings, informational forums, and through emails, calls, etc. on this the last few years. You know from your involvement in P&Y a club isn’t going to take a unified stance on this sort of topic though. It would alienate half their membership. Forest can keep throwing out wild guesses as to how many folks bait in Kansas, but I mentioned above, before most of the real discussions began the state included a baiting question in a CWD survey and only 54% of the respondents said they’d oppose a ban. With the meetings/information provided last year I’d be interested to see what that number is now. I think it’s fair to say, outside of Bowsite, the Kansas pro baiting crowd is much louder than those who’d like to see a change, but maybe isn’t the overall majority these days.

Bowfreak/Buckdeer, Kansas has some excellent biologists, many of which have spent the last year or two outlining the potential affects bait sites have on all sorts of wildlife and habitat. The department banned baiting on public lands over a decade ago now and started posting info about harmful affects as many as four years ago I believe. They angled last year’s discussions and debates as an informational process to educate the public on those affects. The commission even admitted they’d like to ban it at one point last year, but they know as soon as they go forward the state government will step in and attempt to override it. They didn’t even get it to a point of taking a vote and we’re already seeing state legislators launching an attack at the department this winter after threats that they would gut their funding if they continued to explore it. Those informational meetings that were supposed to continue throughout the state have not so mysteriously ceased. The biologists and commission have essentially been handcuffed by private interest on the matter. If it was only about the science and doing what’s best for wildlife in Kansas it would’ve been done away with long ago.

From: Buckdeer
08-Mar-24
I do agree that no honest Kansas sportsperson,no matter how they feel about supplemental feeding should try to use their office to threaten,intimidate or harm another group. Thats why I also sent emails to hopefully stop the bills that were introduced to harm KWPT. My only issue and it's not with feeding is everyone needs to admit they don't know what causes the spread or how to stop it.Some states have issued a ban,some have not,some only ban during hunting season.Some states feed themselves.Kansas may have good biologist but they haven't been dealing with CWD for as long as some other states.Some of which thought killing the deer over corn would keep other deer from dying.That was also from biologist.I hope they can eradicate CWD but I doubt they will.Not like you can treat every deer to stop the disease.I bet more deer die from EHD in most states than CWD and fortunately deer have started developing some immunity to EHD.

From: KB
08-Mar-24
Trying to add some screenshots relevant to that last post but Bowsite can’t go a day or two without gremlins these days.

Hard to argue with your stance Buckdeer, if this was a one specie/one disease issue. As has been outlined by many above and in great detail in the video Kyle shared everyone is very aware that it’s not just about deer and not just about CWD. Hell, your ability in your home state to kill more than one turkey a year and half the available season have recently been lost. I said above a couple times I don’t think baiting is the specific and only reason for a turkey decline, but if the biologists tell us hens are more susceptible to predation at feed sites, their nests are less likely to succeed in the presence of feed sites and there is the potential for disease complications, maybe more seriously for birds than deer, also at feed sites, when would we get on board with removing feed sites? After your ability to hunt turkeys in Kansas disappears completely? Even if it’s not the explicit reason they’re in decline how many more hens can you afford to lose all in the name of enjoying the “pursuit”/monitoring of big antlers? Same goes for pheasants. Habitat, drought, maybe disease as well, all play a role. But in those remaining pieces of habitat where birds are still hanging on how many hens, chicks and nests are an acceptable casualty so that folks can still carry on with their deer feeding? Is there a number out there for a surplus of hens that don’t matter when populations are already in decline? Or are deer, and more specifically antlers, just that much more important than these other species we just need to live with the consequences?

Frankly I don’t give a damn about CWD as it relates to baiting. It’s going to sweep through the state no matter what precautions are taken. Folks in the eastern part of the state will deal with it at some point, unless it truly is a hoax like some of them proclaim I suppose. This might be a little tinfoil hattish I suppose but I’m far more concerned with the if and when of it jumping to cattle and causing an isolated mad cow outbreak. There won’t be a deer left in the country to worry about baiting anyway. Time will tell. Having wasted your time with that, CWD and the social/hunting tactic aspects of baiting are quite a ways down the list for me. Forest can keep running with the typical Bowsite “you guys are just jealous” mantra and/or “God given/private property rights” drivel, but it’s simply not the case. Some of us care about more than antlers and just ourselves.

From: Ambush
08-Mar-24
KB; that's rational, acceptable and much more apt to garner support then some of the simply antagonistic put downs from a few others. Science should always be the leader and when there is conflicting science, we shouldn't beat the other guy over the head with ours.

From: Catscratch
09-Mar-24

Catscratch's Link
If you think KB's thoughts are rational you should listen to this podcast. They talk a lot about the same thing KB touches on. It's a good listen. https://youtu.be/9oaNmqDjRPs?si=am3wII3psK_qbtVZ

Buckdeer is 100% correct in that there are a couple of lawmakers in the state that have threatened funding to Wildlife Departments and have introduced bills to cut their funding. They are making good on their threats. It's self serving and dirty. Our biologists are highly hamstrung due to politicians.

From: Ambush
09-Mar-24
I listened to that podcast in it's entirety when sitO posted it early on.

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