onX Maps
Arrow Penetration
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
Groundhunter 29-Mar-24
sticksender 29-Mar-24
Matt 29-Mar-24
Dale06 29-Mar-24
12yards 29-Mar-24
Live2Hunt 29-Mar-24
Charlie Rehor 29-Mar-24
Blood 29-Mar-24
buckeye 29-Mar-24
fdp 29-Mar-24
Groundhunter 29-Mar-24
Kanati 29-Mar-24
Timex? 29-Mar-24
Kanati 29-Mar-24
Mint 29-Mar-24
Timex? 29-Mar-24
Coondog 29-Mar-24
Beendare 29-Mar-24
Buffalo1 29-Mar-24
Kanati 29-Mar-24
Supernaut 30-Mar-24
WV Mountaineer 30-Mar-24
PECO2 30-Mar-24
Dale06 30-Mar-24
Bou'bound 30-Mar-24
carcus 30-Mar-24
Blood 30-Mar-24
Bou'bound 30-Mar-24
ahunter76 30-Mar-24
Corax_latrans 30-Mar-24
Timex? 30-Mar-24
Beendare 30-Mar-24
Matt 30-Mar-24
Corax_latrans 30-Mar-24
Nick Muche 30-Mar-24
Coondog 30-Mar-24
Murph 30-Mar-24
Murph 30-Mar-24
Bowfreak 31-Mar-24
Kanati 31-Mar-24
fuzzy 31-Mar-24
Cornpone 31-Mar-24
Corax_latrans 31-Mar-24
Bou'bound 31-Mar-24
Coondog 31-Mar-24
Murph 31-Mar-24
Timex? 01-Apr-24
Timex? 01-Apr-24
Blood 01-Apr-24
Coondog 01-Apr-24
Bowfreak 01-Apr-24
APauls 01-Apr-24
Timex? 01-Apr-24
Coondog 01-Apr-24
Nyati 01-Apr-24
Kanati 01-Apr-24
Blood 01-Apr-24
Buglmin 01-Apr-24
Blood 01-Apr-24
fuzzy 01-Apr-24
Kanati 01-Apr-24
Coondog 01-Apr-24
Zbone 01-Apr-24
Timex? 01-Apr-24
Coondog 01-Apr-24
Murph 01-Apr-24
Tradmike 01-Apr-24
Beendare 02-Apr-24
Zbone 02-Apr-24
carcus 02-Apr-24
Zbone 02-Apr-24
Kanati 02-Apr-24
Matt 02-Apr-24
Gun 02-Apr-24
Timex? 02-Apr-24
12yards 02-Apr-24
Zbone 02-Apr-24
Matt 02-Apr-24
Zbone 02-Apr-24
BTM 03-Apr-24
Beendare 03-Apr-24
x-man 03-Apr-24
Ungie01201 05-Apr-24
Corax_latrans 05-Apr-24
Mint 06-Apr-24
Ungie01201 08-Apr-24
WYelkhunter 11-Apr-24
WV Mountaineer 11-Apr-24
From: Groundhunter
29-Mar-24
I watched old archery films yesterday, recurves, great animal penetration

Then I watch TV today, most arrows are half sticking out, with more powerful compounds,,

What's with that?

From: sticksender
29-Mar-24
Large mechanical heads in some cases. Especially when combined with light momentum and un-favorable shot placement.

From: Matt
29-Mar-24
Lack of tuning and mechanical broadheads combined with some huntertainers shooting low poundage bows to help facilitate filming. A friend was in camp with a couple of pretty well known TV personalities and they were only shooting ~50# so they could hold longer at full draw.

From: Dale06
29-Mar-24
Wide mechanicals, low poundage bows.

From: 12yards
29-Mar-24
I only hunt with 50 pounds and I usually get pass throughs. I do have a 29.5" draw length which helps. But my shots are usually close and I use either fixed heads or a small diameter mechanical (Rocket Steelhead). I mostly use an arrow that weighs 420-450 grains, but last year I used a 383 grain arrow. Still worked fine but I'm going back to a bit heavier this year.

From: Live2Hunt
29-Mar-24
The hunting public guys shot mech's in the past. There hits had little penetration and the animals ran hard. They now shoot fixed cut on contact and have clean fast passthroughs and the deer do not run hard away. I have noticed the same switching back to recurve and sharp cut on contact heads. I never shot mech's, but I did shoot muzzys.

29-Mar-24
I shoot 60 pounds at 29” draw with a hybrid, mechanixal/fixed head. My arrows weigh 450 grains. In the last 3 years I’ve shot around 35 animals, all but 2 were pass thru’s and all but 4 fell in sight. Drain em out fast.

From: Blood
29-Mar-24
A lot of these TV personalities have no idea how to tune a bow or build an arrow to accommodate the most efficient and effective setup. There, I said it.

From: buckeye
29-Mar-24
I've always wondered the same thing. My guess is very poor tuning. Possibly combined with big mechanicals. Which absolutely work great if the arrow is flying well. The same could be said for fixed heads as well.

From: fdp
29-Mar-24
What Blood said....

From: Groundhunter
29-Mar-24
That's what I thought. Was watching Buck Ventures, just another clown show.

I had always loved old films from Fred Bear, and Art Laha.......

Sure wish Chuck Adam's had a camera guy, that would be worth watching.

From: Kanati
29-Mar-24
I shoot a #40 longbow and get pass thrus with my 2 blade stingers and 560 gr arrow

From: Timex?
29-Mar-24
^^^ that's a heavy arrow for 40 lbs.

I shoot a 50lb Oneida Phoenix & 500 grain arrow, abowyer or zwicky 2 edge with brass adapter

From: Kanati
29-Mar-24
Yes.14gpp

From: Mint
29-Mar-24
I would say light arrows for flat shooting and non cut on contact mechanical heads. My friends all get great penetration from their 50lb compounds but they shoot simmons heads with at least 500gr arrows. Shooting completely through hogs.

From: Timex?
29-Mar-24
Just a guess but you shoot a kanati bow ? I had 2 of them during my search for the "one" great bows & imo one of the best values to be had in a custom r&d longbow today.

From: Coondog
29-Mar-24
Like said above, it’s a combination of out of tune bows, light arrows, expandable broadheads, and probably lighter draw weights. Ideally, you need 90+ ft/lbs of kinetic energy for expandable broadheads to perform correctly and most people don’t have that with their setups.

From: Beendare
29-Mar-24
Matt nailed it.....

The better part of the past 2 decades with a low poundage recurve has shown me its pretty easy to blow through critters; Perfect arrow flight with an efficient BH- no problem

From: Buffalo1
29-Mar-24
I think more hunters are concerned with speed and light weighted arrows that produce higher KE rather than on heavier arrows that produce momentum.

I think a freight locomotive cans do more damage in a wreck than a Ferrari. JMHO

From: Kanati
29-Mar-24
Correct Timex. Had 7 now 2. Best bows for me.

30-Mar-24
I’ll bite again :>)))

Many “traditional” bowhunters use 9-11 grains of arrow per pound of bow weight.

Plus many arrows flex far too much. Still Flopping around at 20 yards and further.

If your arrow is still flopping like a mackerel when it impacts the animal. You have lost A LOT of the fake momentum you calculated.

Many repeatedly say they never shoot at an animal past a certain range. But still talk about flat shooting. Rifles don’t even shoot flat. Even A bullet arcs towards the target.

Shoot 550-600 grain. stiff arrows strong BH’s and you can forget about any bone on a whitetail.

Most guys just shoot what the knuckle head at the bow shop sells them.

From: Supernaut
30-Mar-24

Supernaut's embedded Photo
Supernaut's embedded Photo
Good post Jay, I agree.

9-11 gpp, sharp 2 blade, 15 yard shot, 70's era Bear Grizzly recurve...... see you on the other side, dyed feathers.

30-Mar-24
Kanati longbows are the pinnacle. I’ve got a 58” that comes in at 52 pounds. Kid like to have one that comes in at 62 or so.

It’s my favorite bow.

From: PECO2
30-Mar-24
Some of them also take very long shots from their out of tune bow, launching a light arrow, and wide mechanical. Many also seem to hit them "just a little far back."

From: Dale06
30-Mar-24
What peco2 said, plus, “we’re going to play it safe, back out and look for it tomorrow.”

From: Bou'bound
30-Mar-24
It’s really counterintuitive to believe the people who make their living filming, archery shots and killing animals and devote a significant portion of their life time to doing that don’t tune their equipment

But for who it’s just a bit of a hobby or pastime something they do on their off time from their real jobs they have this down to a science are doing it the right way consistently and are getting unbelievable penetration

It really seems like it would be the other way around but people who do it most and have the most to get or lose by doing it right or wrong would do it better than those whom it’s a playtime activity

My belief is they tune their bows very well. They spend a lot of time shooting, and generally very accurate dislike people who spend a lot of time doing their jobs. Well do it right but a lot of these people are truly shooting life arrows in order to increase effective range, or perceived effective range, greater aiming error

Lightweight arrow and mechanical broadhead combination just doesn’t penetrate as well mean it’s not as lethal by any stretch of imagination

From: carcus
30-Mar-24

carcus's embedded Photo
The one on the left is the problem with poor penetration, the one on the right is how a proper mech should look
carcus's embedded Photo
The one on the left is the problem with poor penetration, the one on the right is how a proper mech should look

From: Blood
30-Mar-24
Bou, you’re wrong. Many of the people who make tv and YouTube shows that HAVE to produce content to get a paycheck do not spend the time to maximize their setup. Nor do they understand or care if their setup is the absolute best tuned piece of their arsenal. They care about sponsorships and subscribers.

Heck, the majority of pro-shops don’t even know what how to make a properly tuned, efficient setup.

From: Bou'bound
30-Mar-24
Good point. I was looking at it wrong for many of them. The reality is there certainly is a penetration issue on many of those shows.

From: ahunter76
30-Mar-24

ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
I have always said speed is for targets & weight is for penetration. I started in 1956 & 20+ years of Longbows & recurves b/4 the compound became the craze. Arrowed Elk, Whitetails & Bear with average weight of 55#s + or - a pound, recurves. Bear & Elk with 53#s. Compounds, early years in the 55# range then to 70#s about 10 years when 50% letoff. Then to 60#s. 75% last 15 years & the 1st thing arrowed with it was a Buffalo at 42 yds, complete pass thru & beyond. I have always expected a pass thru & still do with a 50# Longbow& 60# Compound. Mostly 125 gr 3 blade & Aluminum shaft with average total arrow weight of 500+ grns (that is why). I "try" to keep my shots 25 or less yds & have except for a handful over the years. I have had complete pass thru with 53# Recurve on Elk at 35 yds & 60#s compound Elk @ 35 yds & longest Buffalo at 42 yds.. I use the lightest "safe" arrow for targets but have never had a chrono done in over 50 years. I definitely know how to tune my tackle. Current bows are Longbow, 68" 50#s for targets & hunting with a 11/32" 29" arrow & 125 gr 3 blade fixed. Compound hunter is 60#s 50% letoff, 2219 or 2216, 29" Aluminum shaft & 125 gr 3 blade fixed (do the math on total weight). As said, I expect a pass thru into the ground.

30-Mar-24
I’m with Blood on this one. If it’s a hobby and a passion, shooting and tuning are part of the process and a way to stay engaged with it year ‘round; Improvement is a reward in itself.

If you’re trying to make it big as a Huntertainer (thanks, Matt!), Shooting and Tuning are just “expenses” which get in the way of filming, editing, lining up properties, chasing sponsors, etc. Besides— if your sponsor says their heads fly “like a field point” and your FPs are hitting where you want them to, what’s to tune?? Maybe some of these guys sound believable because they don’t know any better and they believe it themselves??

Full Disclosure— I haven’t watched a “hunting” show on TV for a couple decades or more, and I almost never watch the videos linked here. Last one I can specifically recall was South Cox’s shot at 3 yards or so on a nice bull…

Chuck Adams is a highly accomplished Bowhunter who made sponsorships work for him so he could go and do more. A camera crew would have gotten in his way. And Chuck did Chuck. Those who were paying attention know that his top sponsor kept a finger-shootable bow in their lineup (under Reflex) LONG after the industry had gone to triggerbows, just to keep him working with them…. He didn’t have to sell out because his sponsors were already invested. And his penetration must’ve been pretty OK, because I recall one print ad for Easton Aluminum where he had an individual arrow— XX78, maybe? — which had something like a dozen kills to its credit. That doesn’t happen without pass-throughs….

OK - full disclosure Part II….

For me, personally, I guess I should acknowledge that shooting belongs in my Expense column, really, no matter how much enjoyment it gives… I’m consistently shocked, appalled and horrified by the price tags on the latest and greatest in sights, stabilizers, top-end arrows, arrow rests and releases that the compound guys are shooting (and don’t get me started on BH at $35 EACH instead of $35 per half dozen!)….

But if I didn’t have 4 or 5 friends at the club feeding me arrows all the time, I’d probably spend more on arrows than a lot of Gadget Guys spend on their gee-gaws….

;)

From: Timex?
30-Mar-24
I'm not a tec guy.....about 40 years ago I bought a black widow bow dvd, any of yall remember those :) Ken Beck was using slo mo video to demonstrate arrow tuning....shot a weak then stiff then correct shafts

It really sunk in and ever since ,,,,fingers or release doesn't matter,,,, I bareshaft tune with field points then fine tune till fixed 2 edge hit exactly with field points,, never have had penatration problems.

From: Beendare
30-Mar-24
Carcus's pic clearly illustrates a huge difference in Blade angle- a huge factor in penetration be it fixed or Mech.

That left side head is going to chopping its way in through hair, hide and bone.

From: Matt
30-Mar-24
It used to amaze me at how short the hunts were for many of guys who were producing hunting videos. Dragging a camera man along adversely impacts hunt success, so in my mind they should schedule longer hunts to mitigate and in many cases it seems that they couldn’t even allot the full time for the hunt they were on (e.g. 7 day elk hunt where they could only hunt 5.5 days due to scheduling).

Once I understood this and got some personal insight from people who were in camp with some of the more noteworthy names, the picture became more clear. They spent a lot more time producing and marketing hunting videos than actually hunting or preparing for the hunt.

‘What peco2 said, plus, “we’re going to play it safe, back out and look for it tomorrow.”‘

Dale, it is funny you say that because that is exactly what happened on the hunt my friend was on. The video guy shot a deer late in the evening and elected to wait until the next day for the recovery. My friend, who had been a hunting guide for 25+ years at that point and is a crazy good tracker, told them that was a bad idea and he would happily go out and help them recover the deer. They elected to wait until morning for the search, which made quite a few coyotes very happy. There was not much left of the deer the next morning, and the deer only ran ~40 yards after the hit.

30-Mar-24
Guess they’re a lot lighter when the coyotes gut ‘em and pack off a lot of meat for you…..

Couldn’t POSSIBLY have anything to do with these characters not having time nor budget to put into “details” such as complying with wanton waste laws, could it??

But back to the OP here….

Recently, someone here thoughtfully provided a link to a documentary-style Video on the history of archery, and notably…

One of the broadhead designs from the medieval period was a very wide, heavily barbed BH, which immediately reminded me of a head like the too-wide, too-flat mechanical on the left in the pic above. Couldn’t help but wonder why they would invest the time and resources in building such a thing, but — turns out— that those BH were designed specifically to panic a horse… I suppose the idea was to take a Knight out of the battle by wounding his Mighty and Noble Steed with an arrow which would not lill the horse quickly, but cause it to panic wildly, bolt out of control and presumably either collapse or throw the rider some distance from the heart of the battle…

Makes sense. When a jockey wants speed, he’s got his riding crop he can flog the horse with; a deer with an arrow slapping its side, probably cutting more flesh with each stroke…. They run like hell, too.

From: Nick Muche
30-Mar-24
That mechanical on the left "up there" has killed a ton of critters (for me).

From: Coondog
30-Mar-24
All you have to do is watch the arrow flight when they show the slow motion of any shots on animals or practicing. A large majority of the arrows come of the bow damn near sideways before the vanes stabilize the arrow 10-15 yards out. Start paying attention to that and you’ll be amazed how poorly tuned these set ups are.

From: Murph
30-Mar-24
Damn coondog, I agree more is better and agree most aren’t getting their , but 90ft lbs for a mechanical to perform? I’m pretty sure only 1/10 of 1% of the 99th percentile will achieve that kind of KE..

From: Murph
30-Mar-24
I know this horse has been beat to death but a bow can only deliver x amount of energy/work in a common equation either increase arrow weight that decreases speed or increase speed with reduced arrow weight at the end of the day the bow will deliver the same equated value you can crunch it and find the best efficiency for KE but it’s only gonna vary by a couple ft pounds, you better be a long draw guy or be willing to pull alot of weight or a combo of both to achieve high KE

31-Mar-24
And remember those KE and momentum numbers are theoretical. Not actual numbers.

If your arrow is impacting at even a minute fraction of a degree off of 90 degrees. You have lost a lot of momentum. The tail of the arrow will want to move off center. The weight is no longer pushing behind the BH

That is where FOC matters

Look at a slow motion arrow. The tip and rear are not in line with the center. We can steal a little from crossbow bolts and flight. Modern bows do not need the arrow to bend around the riser any longer. But we still use too flexible of a shaft.

Tune your bow to a heavy, STIFF arrow and never fear any bone on a whitetail. Or even an elk shoulder.

From: Bowfreak
31-Mar-24
Decent poundage, decent arrow weight, average sized well built mechanical out of a well tuned compound is the most deadly combination for nearly every NA big game animal.

Sometimes I wonder if TV hunters are trying to get such terrible penetration.

From: Kanati
31-Mar-24
AS, heavy stiff arrow and high FOC. Yes. #40 LB 560 arrow 23% foc 2 blade bh. 300 gr up front. Works for me

From: fuzzy
31-Mar-24
Heavy arrows, COC heads, very sharp, good shot placement

From: Cornpone
31-Mar-24
Re:broadhead length to diameter I recall reading some time ago that the ideal ratio was 3:1. Not too many have that but the closer the better.

31-Mar-24
3:1… That’s the Howard Hill take on the geometry…

Simple Math/Physics 101 — a BH blade is a ramp; the steeper the ramp up to a height of X, the more work involved. If you were tasked with pushing a wheelbarrow full of bricks to the top of a 10-foot wall, you’d want a ramp, right?? Longer the better.

BUT….. A long, slender blade has a real weakness, which is… weakness. Ferrule length equal, a convex shape puts more steel up front than a straight edge and straight puts more steel out there than concave. At least SOME of the long, slender heads were made to address that by continuing the ferrule closer to the front so that there’s less unsupported blade sticking out there…

Also, the distance from the aft end of the ferrule to the tip of the blade is a lever arm which will work to snap your shaft off behind (which is easier to picture with a glue-on head and a wooden arrow, but same applies at the back of an insert).

So depending on a number of factors, 3:1 may be too much of a good thing, but a lot of modern heads are built closer to 1:1. That’s like the difference between a hand-ace and a stiletto. Compounds have KE/Momentum to spare, but it takes a pretty stout recurve to even begin to approach those numbers.

And as Jay said, all of that On-Paper “power” evaporates very quickly if you waste it on flexing your arrow upon impact.

I know a lot of guys get a little tumescent just thinking about those Texas Chainsaw blood trails from the ultra-wide mechs, but if the animal is bleeding out twice as fast and running 3 times as fast, you’ll actually get a poorer blood trail from the mech, all else being equal. And an animal running Mach Schnell until it drops is going to go a lot farther than one which was startled, but doesn’t feel as if it’s being chased by anything.

From: Bou'bound
31-Mar-24
Yeah what he said

From: Coondog
31-Mar-24
Murph, most all 70lb bows nowadays shooting 425+ grain arrows will get you that 90 ft/lbs of KE. I shoot a 84lb, 30”, 536 grain arrow at 294 fps. That’s 103 ft/lbs of KE. 90 ft/lbs is very achievable. I’m not saying expandable a will not work with under 90 ft/lbs, but they will perform significantly better with less chance of failure or lack of penetration with higher KE.

From: Murph
31-Mar-24
I shoot a Hoyt Ventum at 29” 70lb and come in under 80ft lb KE with a 458gr arrow. A 425 gr arrow at 70lbs has to go 310fps to achieve 90KE still a tall order IMO unless your 30+ “ draw or pulling the weight

01-Apr-24
A 70 bow launching a 425 grain arrow. It would be flopping like a mackerel.

From: Timex?
01-Apr-24
I shot a bowtec 101st airborne for about 15 years, 27" draw 70lb, zwicky 2 edge went through deer like they were butter,,,,,the rages first came out , I saw the huge holes & decided to try them, bought a 3 pack, killed 2 deer with them and gave them away,,,,,,I'll take penatration over a big entrance hole , all day every day.

From: Timex?
01-Apr-24
A 70 bow launching a 425 grain arrow. It would be flopping like a mackerel.

Not true.......I have a 27" draw And when I was shooting 70# I could easily shoot a 6gpp arrow if I wanted to.

From: Blood
01-Apr-24
Altitude, funny thing about your statement, ALOT of bow shops will hand over arrows that are too light. And are underspined. And don’t know how to set up a bow and properly tune it for those arrows. So you just answered why penetration is an issue for TV personalities and alot of bow hunters.

A good broadhead and a great arrow with a solidly tuned bow will shine for bowhunting in most instances.

From: Coondog
01-Apr-24
Murph, either you aren’t actually pulling 70lbs or your chronograph is off. You shouldn’t be under 80 ft/lbs with that.

01-Apr-24
Timex, I’m sure your bow is tuned to that 425 grain arrow. And it probably hits where you’re aiming.

But my guess is if you took a side view, slow motion video that arrow would be flexing heavily even out to 20-25 yards.

That flexing up and down or sideways, I’m not talking not corkscrewing , or porpoising, but flexing of the shaft, that flexing wastes a ton of momentum. Especially if it’s still flexing as it’s trying to enter the animal.

From: Bowfreak
01-Apr-24
Stiff arrows are offered in many different GPI. You could easily build a properly spined arrow for a 70 lb bow that weighs less than 400 grains. Spine is not associated with weight other than arrows of the same type will be heavier as you go up in spine.

From: APauls
01-Apr-24
Bunch of recurve guys sick of taking pictures of their wooden bows in trees got mad and jealous at the people that keep killing stuff with arrows sticking out again.

From: Timex?
01-Apr-24
Didn't say I did shoot that light of an arrow,,, said I "could" with my short draw length.

In fact my draw lengths is down to 26" these days,,,,,

Here's one for ya over the years as I've reduced draw weight from 70# down to 50# I've continued shooting the same shafts & have increased point weight from 125 to 175 and while yes my pin gaps have gotten considerably wider, I see very little noticeable difference in penatration. I shoot 2 edge zwicky or abowyer. Just use different inserts / adapters to add point weight as I've reduced bow lbs.

From: Coondog
01-Apr-24
Altitude, a light, fast arrow that is underspined does not flex any more than a heavy, slower arrow that is underspined. You’re not thinking about getting a properly spined arrow. I have one arrow that is 536 grains and one that is 444 grains. They flex the same amount in a slow motion video before the fletching stabilizes them 10-15 yards out. Proper arrow spine is critical to efficiency and tunability.

From: Nyati
01-Apr-24
I think it’s expanding heads. That’s why I shoot a fixed blade. May not bleed a ton or wounds look as cool on video for drama but usually get thru and thru penetration

01-Apr-24
Can you guys share the length, weight up front, brand and model of shaft you use.

From: Kanati
01-Apr-24
27” GT trads with 300 up front. #40 Kanati LB

From: Blood
01-Apr-24
Sirius Gemini 200 spine cut to 28.5” with 200 or 215 grains up front. 4 fletch with a wrap and a lighted nock. They weigh 565 grains or 550 grains. I get bullet holes with either up front weight. They fly at 285-288 FPS. 75lb draw at 30.5” draw length.

From: Buglmin
01-Apr-24
I shot a 27" 416 grain Pierce Platinum, 165 grains up front from a 57 pound Hoyt alpha x at 282 fps, at 20 yards. Arrows are flying perfect at 60 yards with a 100 grain Helix fj4. My foc is only 13% , but yet I've shot through several road killed elk. I've shot through elk with 50 pound long bows and 440 grain arrows. So, mr. Attitude Sickness, lets, talk momentum, especially at 40 to 60 yards. Love how guys think their heavy arrows continue to carry their momentum down range even though arrow speed drops off. I suggest you go to Joel Maxfield's fb page, where he's done extensive experiments on the whole heavier is better argument.

From: Blood
01-Apr-24
Bugl - a slightly slower heavier arrow doesn’t shed speed as fast as a faster lighter arrow down range.

From: fuzzy
01-Apr-24
Timex, penetration always beats a big hole

From: Kanati
01-Apr-24
Forgot to say my arrows are 500 spine. Total weight 560

01-Apr-24

Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
Thanks Bugle man. I do my own

I don’t think anyone including myself said a 400 grain arrow from a 70# compound won’t kill. Of course it will. You can put an orange on the end of an arrow and get through a whitetail. :>))))

I think the OP asked why all the arrows hanging from the sides of a 200# whitetail as it runs off.

We are adding our opinions. And IMHO people shoot light, too flexible of shafts Again my opinion. We are better going far stiffer on the spine charts.

But who am I. I wouldn’t listen to me either

From: Coondog
01-Apr-24
Easton Axis Long Range 250 spine cut to 28 1/4 inches (carbon to carbon). 536 grains total arrow weight with 210 grains up front. Iron Will deep six HIT (50, 75, and 100 grain depending on what broadhead I use), Iron Will 10 grain Impact Collar. 4 fletch, wrap, and AAE IP4 nocks. I shoot 84lbs at 30” DL. They leave the bow at 294fps.

01-Apr-24
Holy cow! Coondog. You surly don’t need to worry about whitetail shoulders.

01-Apr-24

From: Zbone
01-Apr-24
All this penetration talk and nobody has yet to mention Dr. Ashby's reports:

https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/ashby-reports

From: Timex?
01-Apr-24
Pse, radial x weave pro 200s Beleave the spine is 430, 28" with lumonock & 3 fletch helical blazers.

Broadhead abowyer bonehead 120gr or zwicky no mercy 125gr or delta 130gr

Total point / arrow weigh manipulated by different aluminum / brass adaptors & inserts.

From: Coondog
01-Apr-24
Lol. Yeah I don’t want to have to worry about impacting bone on animals. Shooting single bevel broadheads on deer and elk. I’m not purposely going to aim for a shoulder blade, but stuff happens as we all know.

From: Murph
01-Apr-24
You may be correct on my KE coondog I scale my bow that’s all up to par but I know my chrony didn’t agree with a bow shop once so could be the issue idk I though theirs was off who knows

From: Tradmike
01-Apr-24
Two things. 1. Mechanical broadheads 2. Light arrows. Both equal low penetration.

From: Beendare
02-Apr-24
I think we have enough evidence now…..that mech heads work well with enough arrow behind them.

Decades ago, I used to see studies trying to make the correlation that more penetration equals more dead critters. I don’t think that is a straight line comparison. Sure the big mech heads penetrate less…but they create a lot more damage.

I’m in the penetration camp myself….and use 2 blade heads for many reasons not just the effortless penetration and the corresponding lack of much reaction by the animal.

How can anyone argue these mech heads don’t work? We see the results.

From: Zbone
02-Apr-24

Zbone's Link
Beendare - "Sure the big mech heads penetrate less…but they create a lot more damage"

On a marginal hit what would you have rather have more or less penetration?

Heck, even a field point through the vitals will kill any animal, but not on a marginal hit...

From: carcus
02-Apr-24
A buddy of mine made a good shot on his buck last fall, 1" coc single bevel, passed through like nothing. I was close so I gave him a hand, 1.5 hours later we found the deer very much alive and he put another one in the boiler, the deer got up and ran another 300 yards and eventually died. He'll never use one of those expensive, Australian made heads again

From: Zbone
02-Apr-24
Shoot them in the guts they'll go for a day, shoot them in the liver they can go for hours, shoot them through BOTH lungs or through the heart they're dead in minutes... That is just facts...

From: Kanati
02-Apr-24
Carcus, what did the first shot hit?

From: Matt
02-Apr-24
I shot a moose through both lungs with an 3blade Muzzy Trocar and had to put a finisher in him ~45 minutes later. The shot was high in the lungs, not all lung shots are equal.

From: Gun
02-Apr-24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2oiQtMZJ94

From: Timex?
02-Apr-24
In my 40+ years bowhunting I've shot razorback, thundered, wasp, satellite, muzzy, grizzly, cutthroat, magnus, abowyer, zwicky eclipse & several not coming to mind,,,,,,never ceases to amaze me how quickly a property placed broadhead kills. I prefer fixed 2 edge mainly because I use the paper wheels sharpener & can get them absolutely wicked sharp, like broken glass sharp.

The other reason is durability,,, killed 7 deer with a zwicky before a rock on a pass threw split the Furrel

The need for large cut expandable ????......

I will say fixed 2 edge absolutely require a property tuned setup, expandable not so much.

From: 12yards
02-Apr-24
Zbone, on a marginal hit, sometimes a big cut mechanical would be desired. I'm talking through guts, which it seems for me has been more common than hitting bone. If your marginal hit is bone, then yes, it is better to have a COC single bevel head. Bill Winke always said, tell me where you are going to hit them and I'll tell you what is the best broadhead.

From: Zbone
02-Apr-24
I'll take penetration over cutting diameter anytime... A gut shot animal is mortally wounded and will die regardless of what kind of head was poked through their innards...

Wonder how many PHs allow mechanicals on Africa's dangerous game???

From: Matt
02-Apr-24
“Wonder how many PHs allow mechanicals on Africa's dangerous game???”

As I understand it, some require MBH’s for leopard. They are the wrong tool for the job on the big ones, but that makes no commentary on their use on smaller game like most of we have in NA.

Having gut shot animals with fixed blade BH’s and big MBH’s, give me the big MBH all day every day. Recovery is the goal, not just killing them. The issue is as 12yards raised, you don’t know what the best BH is for a particular shot placement until after you already hit them.

From: Zbone
02-Apr-24
"As I understand it, some require MBH’s for leopard."

You'll have to prove that too me before I believe that, but I'm not gonna get into another mechanical vs fixed blade debate as it's already been done probably dozens of times here... I probably shouldn't have posted... People will stand fast to their beliefs regardless, kinda, sorta like republicans and democrats, neither is going to change the others mind... It's not worth my time to try and convince when the facts are already out there, just read the reports...

Gun - I just watch that video, I wonder if he's changed to fixed blades now...8^) I doubt it, sponsor probably pays to much... I'm surprised he made it available to the public, that video alone should concern any mechanialists...

Carry on....

From: BTM
03-Apr-24
"Bill Winke always said, tell me where you are going to hit them and I'll tell you what is the best broadhead."

So well said!

From: Beendare
03-Apr-24
I think some of the poor penetration we see with mech heads is poor arrow flight due to the lack of BH tuning.

Its a fact, many resort to mechs because they cannot get their Fixed heads to fly right. That fixed head is essentially telling that guy, “ the arrow is coming out of your bow cockeyed” Slapping a mech head on there didn’t solve the problem, in fact it concealed it. Some Guys are shooting mech tipped arrows with poor flight and they don’t know it.

.

From: x-man
03-Apr-24
^^^this^^^

From: Ungie01201
05-Apr-24
i'm not for or against mechs or fixed... they all work great out of a well tuned properly set up bow. shoot what works for you. I have had passthroughs on almost every deer I have ever shot with a mechanical unless I hit the opposite shoulder, and those still usually died within sight... I did lose a nice buck to a shoulder shot with a mech though... Im sure I would have gotten more penetration with a fixed possibly... but I hit him square in the shoulder ball... not the scapula. If I was a TV hunter and saw that deer run away with the arrow dangling out of him I would have been happy and fist pumped because somehow they would have recovered him LOL... but unfortunately I did not.

05-Apr-24
“….I hit the opposite shoulder, and those still usually died within sight... “

If you hit the opposite shoulder, they usually die within sight when hit with just about anything, no?

“I did lose a nice buck to a shoulder shot with a mech though... Im sure I would have gotten more penetration with a fixed possibly... but I hit him square in the shoulder ball... not the scapula.”

Depending on the specific head used…. On the hit you described, probably the best penetration would come from something like a field point. No deformation to soften the impact.

For BH, maybe a Thunderhead or a Muzzy trocar tip? Too massive for the ferrule to be deformed and no blades tearing off or sinking into bone to soften the impact. OTOH a longer, slimmer (but massive) 2-blade might do the trick also — slides off what it can’t split. Probably even better odds with a single-bevel, tanto tip, if the reports are to be believed…

Call me crazy, but it almost seems like a quartering-to angle is not a good choice with a mechanical. Maybe mech user’s should consider choosing their shots the same way that single-string shooters do???

I will leave it to you Compound guys to figure out… I have a hunch that there are no bows which are honestly “too fast” to use with fixed blades, but there are probably very, very few which are tuned well enough to shoot fixed blades well at the speeds that they are capable of generating. Operator Error.

Imagine that!! Most guys would rather brag that their bow is simply “too fast” than fess up and do the work to correct the issue….

From: Mint
06-Apr-24
I hunt with a recurve so for whitetails I use a Four Blade Palmer Extreme Cut broadhead, think oversized Muzzy Phantom and for Hogs i use the Simmons Land Shark or Tiger Shark. They both leave huge holes and I get complete passthroughs. With the recurve if i hit the shoulder bone with any broadhead I'm not going to penetrate through anyway so I shoot a big broadhead.

From: Ungie01201
08-Apr-24
When I was younger I wanted speed... now I just want a well tuned bow that hits hard. My bow is far from a speed demon, but fast enough and shoots a beautiful arrow!

From: WYelkhunter
11-Apr-24
It all depends on the set up and tune of the bow. Some people believe in pass throughs some believe the arrow staying inside the animals does more damage. I don't know any of the setups on the modern shows you are talking about so I can't comment as to why you perceive them as not getting as good of penetration.

As to other discussions. I shoot 1.75" rear deploying 2 blade mechanical. 68lbs draw. 28.5" DL. Total arrow weight of about 450gr. I have a FOC of about 13%. I tune with fixed blade heads even though I don't shoot them. No problems with pass throughs. I build my arrows to achieve 280 to 285 fps arrow speed. I feel that gives me the perfect combo of momentum(more important than KE in my opinion), speed for distance judging forgiveness and it is what I have confidence in.

11-Apr-24
The only advantage I’ve seen in a two blade, coc head is the animal rarely reacts as severely when hit. Even a vitals hit they tend to charge out low and hard and end bounding to a hop 30-40 yards away. Some stop. Some don’t. But, the ones that do stop are on their side kicking within a few seconds of doing so.

When I shoot a deer with my compound, it comes out low and hard and usually runs to its death full steam.

Not always but I’m guessing these examples round up about 90% of the deer and bear I’ve shot with both type bows.

I don’t think it’s bow noise. I don’t think it’s because the compound arrow hits so much harder. I think it’s because I use a three blade fixed on the compound all the time. And shoot two blade coc most of the time out of the trad bow.

However, since switching over to the tooth of the arrow three blade heads, I haven’t had an animal run more then 30 yards. Regardless of the bow I shot it with.

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