To collar or not to collar???
Equipment
I just got my first set of 5mm Axis arrows and am wondering if i need to use a collar over the end of the shaft with the HIT insert or not. What are your experiences???
What do you want the collar to do? That’s a serious question. Are you looking for more weight up front or do you want something that will really protect your arrow from a hard impact?
JMO, if you occasionally hit Hard Things, the more you can up-armor your arrow, the better. I have yet to find an arrow that’s more durable than I need it to be, so I usually put on an inch and a half of 2117…or 2216 or 2219, depending on the shaft I’m footing…. I guess that counts as a “collar”…..
I only use the broadhead adapter rings on mine without any issues. However I am only using them on whitetail. Hunting bigger game, I’d probably use a collar for peace of mind.
I rough up the shaft and epoxy on 3/4" of a 2016 aluminum shaft as reinforcement and taper the rear edge of it. It really helps keep judos from ruining the ends of the shafts when you hit a lot of knots or rocks while stump shooting. It certainly doesn't hurt anything, especially trad.........Mike
Blood, I'm not looking for more weight, just wondering if i need more protection for the end of the arrow.
Collars can’t hurt, but I’ve killed several elk using 5mm Axis without them and have had zero issues.
I have had a couple broad heads collapse out through the side of the shaft on hard hits. Have used some type of collar or aluminum footer since those first couple incidents and won’t do it any other way now.
I don’t use them and probably never will. I shoot axis 340’s and fmj 340’s. If you hit something really hard like a rock or a piece of rebar in a target that collar isn’t going to help much. I don’t stump shoot though. I lose more arrows from a miss than destroying the end of the arrow from a hard impact. If you feel like you need them then go for it. Easton came out with some collars that aren’t very heavy made specifically for 5mm and 4mm.
I made some for my Daughter’s Axis 500’s, Lancaster sells arrows individually if you’re interested. I beveled the end with a case chamfer tool for reloading, to make pulling from bag targets easier.
String Puller, and others, Lancaster no longer sells shafts individually. I just found that out couple weeks ago.
One negative about collars, is they make arrow removal a bit tougher. They hang up a little bit in bag targets. If I use them again, I’d put them in a drill to spin them and try to bevel the back end.
Ok. There really isn’t a collar only that will help you protect your arrow. You’ll need to build a system - insert with a collar that will add structural support. This adds weight. But you’ll have much better FOC.
So if you want to beef up your arrow setup and protect it from hard impacts - dirt, bone, rocks, rebar, etc. Don’t expect a collar - like an IW - will do anything to help you save your arrow. There’s 1 or 2 options out there that really improve the chance your carbon will survive hard impacts.
I have used the 5 mm Axis for the past 7 years. On deer size game I have shot 19 animals with 4 being hard hits. Every one of the hard hits the shaft snapped. All the shafts snapped well behind where a collar would have been. I don’t use collars or broad head adapters. Would a collar prevented the arrow from snapping? It’s hard to say.
I use the 10 gr. IW Ti collars for a little added peace of mind. Frankly I have never had a situation before or after I started using them where I believe they would have made a difference.
Thanks for all the replies! I'll shoot some both ways and see what i like the best.
“ Would a collar prevented the arrow from snapping? It’s hard to say.”
No, it isn’t. I’m gonna go out on a 10-inch limb here and say that a collar WILL NOT prevent your shaft from snapping; only from mushrooming. That’s what they are designed to do.
Makes me wonder if anyone has EVER mushroomed a shaft on bone, though. I kinda doubt it, honestly, but I suppose it’s possible, given hard enough bone and enough poundage. AltitudeSick might have managed it in some of his destructive testing, but he was shooting into bone unimpeded by contact with muscle or hide, so his impact forces might be exaggerated a bit….
I have mushroomed a crapload of shafts shooting aluminum arrows tipped with Judos into something like a 4X4, or un-footed carbons into rocks….. Occasionally I will see a carbon break off right behind the footing…. But the shaft still broke due to LATERAL flexion.
Willieboat x2. If I’m shooting a carbon arrow, it’s going to be footed or collared. No exceptions.
Since I started shooting FMJ shafts 13 years ago, mine are footed just like SD String Puller's. This works better than collars. First; it adds radial strength like a collar to keep the tip from mushrooming the shaft if the insert glue bond fails. Second; also like a collar, it gives a thicker bearing surface for the tip. Third; better than a collar though, it greatly increases the glue bond area over just that provided by the insert, so the combined glue bond is much less likely to fail. My footing weighs 16 gr. giving a bit more FOC, which I also like.
Collars for all my hunting arrows. Glue in field points that weigh the same for target arrows.
Collars for all my hunting arrows. Glue in field points that weigh the same for target arrows.
String Puller X 2 ben doing it for 10 years love it on elk and moose. I like the orange Al. shaft looks cool.
A collar will still mushroom your arrow. However, instead of the arrow breaking in front of the HIT or broadhead/HIT blowing out the sides, it will still remain in position and hopefully still blow through an animal.
Coondog- was that from hitting an animal or something like a rock?
What Scoot said/asked.
And FWIW, if you use FPs the same diameter as the OD of the collar, I don’t think that kind of a mushroom would be physically possible.
I honestly can’t imagine how you got it to do that….
Hit the rebar spine in the Rinehart caribou target at 115 yards (yes at that distance my set up still has that kind of KE… imagine it at 20 yards). Iron Will collar with the matching Iron Will field point. I have seen it happen more than once with their components.
Let me know what works for hitting rebar. I can never seem to get a pass through killing rebar.
Working on it. Definitely are better systems than Iron Will out there. *gasp*
GFL there is one system that is really superior for that. I’ve found it to survive cement and rocks too. And if anyone else is sick and tired of arrows getting destroyed on stuff like this… You should start tinkering.
And, there are some arrows out there that are really not good. So once you find a system from insert to carbon, you’ll be really confident.
I have tried and really wanted to like 5 mm arrows but just can’t get past the inserts. I don’t shoot well enough to see any accuracy gains that might be experienced from a smaller diameter shaft and I have never had any penetration or integrity issues with my .246 internal components shafts.
Arrows can do weird things when they hit an animal. Minimize the chance things go sideways - literally - by having a system that will drive your arrow in one piece through anything you hit. A collar is only a small piece of the puzzle.
“Let me know what works for hitting rebar.”
Unfortunately, they don’t appear to offer “backbones” made of anything else in the larger 3Ds, so if you shoot them often (and are only occasionally Perfect), you’ll hit rebar from time to time.
So it IS nice to be a bit bomb-proofed….
@Coondog — so did that Iron Will collar get mushroomed as well as the shaft? The bond between shaft & collar must’ve been better than between shaft & insert, maybe?? Still can’t get my head around the idea of the shaft squeezing through the gap like that….. Crazy.
Congrats on the new arrows! As for the collar over the shaft, it really depends on your setup. I personally use a collar for extra durability, but I’ve also seen folks who prefer not to, especially if their inserts fit snugly. The collar can help prevent the shaft from splitting if you’re shooting heavy setups. I’ve been into archery for a while, and I've learned that sometimes the little details, like the collar, make a big difference in performance. By the way, when I was looking for a strong, reliable collar for my dog, I came across
Leather Dog Collars at Ranchhand, and they were super durable.
Blood said….
“there is one system that is really superior for that. I’ve found it to survive cement and rocks too. And if anyone else is sick and tired of arrows getting destroyed on stuff like this… You should start tinkering.”
OK…. Can we talk you out of some details, or did the arrow industry buy you off and swear you to silence to keep them from going out of business??
‘Cuz I’ve done a crapload of tinkering and I still get blow-ups. This is a bent Judo inside of a bent brass insert that was in a relatively thick-walled 340 carbon shaft footed with 2219 aluminum.
In fairness, if I had hit a brick wall, square-on, maybe??
This one hit pretty square but the 2219 wasn’t able to contain the flex…. Good news is that I can pull the (aluminum RPS) insert from the footing and cut a new one. This little trick has saved me a small fortune….
I've never done it. Some axis 5mm arrows I've shot through deer and re-used just fine. Some I've hit stuff (trees or what not) and they were fine. But many that hit hard stuff (rocks, steel fence post near my 3d target - oopsie) shroomed.
I tried collars for awhile- no advantage only disadvantages. Collars make it tough to pull in some targets- especially the bags.
2 things seriously improve the strength and toughness with the HIT system; Use quality epoxy Square the ends on a jig with fine sandpaper so your BH's and FPS seat tight and square
But no collar = no good. 400 spine are my nemesis, because the bows that can handle a 28”, 400-spine arrow shoot hard enough that the casualties without collars are painfully high….
Woodgrain 500s will generally foot with 2117; 340s generally match up with 2216 or 2219…. But 400s fall into no man’s land…
I have been using Axis shafts since 2018. Never once have I put a collar on. 20 whitetails shot and the only broke shafts I have are from hard bone hits. (4 shots) Never have seen any visible damage unless the shaft broke completely. 2 of the hits were spine hits and when the deer went down and it rolled the shaft snapped.
For deer size animals they are definitely not needed.
“ For deer size animals they are definitely not needed.”
Maybe not, but for rocks quail-sized and up, they sure come in handy!
I’ve been using homemade collars on Axis shafts for quite a few years. And they absolutely make a stronger arrow.
I epoxy the collar on at the same time as the insert and with the same Easton supplied epoxy. After twenty four hours, I square the end on a lathe and grinding attachment so the collar and shaft end are dead square and even. Just make sure to use the little stone supplied to put a slight bevel inside the shaft. Or use a washer to space the broadhead shoulder out a bit.
