Land purchase with reserved timber
Whitetail Deer
I have been looking to buy some land for a long time now (picky about details and what I get for a specific price).
Anyway, a pretty 60 acres of land came up for sale for what seems to be a pretty good price, but its for a reason. Its pretty now, but the current owner has already sold the timber rights to it and they have until December to harvest it. Therefore, it will mostly likely look a bomb went off on it once they are done. No part of the current contract requires them to replant which I think I would want to do. Planting or not is weighing on my mind as not planting will likely produce better deer habitat but not much future timber value.
Anyway, I am mainly looking for any pointers or opinions of how to potentially navigate a purchase like this. If they don't harvest the timber before the sale closes I kind of don't really know what I will be left with once they take the timber. I am expecting bare dirt but I'm more nervous about the conditions its left (roads destroyed, brush and limbs left all over the place etc etc)
This is central Mississippi land for reference, asking price 1500 per acre (I think its still a tad high but its negotiable)
Me personally I would stay away, after the timber harvest and land sale they could stand to get 3500 an acre... your left with a big mess for sometime. scentman
Yup there will be trees laying all over the place. It could potentially be good after a few years of growth but from my experience there won’t be anywhere to put a stand and the deer will see you for a long ways away.
Yea I don’t mind waiting for the growth to start. The mess is the biggest concern and the overall uncertainty. It would be a lot easier if it was already cut.
Yea I don’t mind waiting for the growth to start. The mess is the biggest concern and the overall uncertainty. It would be a lot easier if it was already cut.
Hire a professional forestry consultant to look at the contract and meet with the timber company that is doing the work. A good outfit doing a select cut won’t hurt the property much at all. All you are really losing in that case is the profit of the timber being cut.
Is it a clear cut? Select cut? Are they looking for lumber? Firewood or both? Do they have a one time window to harvest the timber or is it perpetual? Meaning, do they have the right to do another harvest at another time?
I don’t know what land fetches in that area. Is 1500/acre a killer price?
It’s impossible to answer your question without knowing more about the property.
Timber harvesting is not always a bad thing. Within 5 years you will have great bedding areas, lots of undergrowth, security cover, and it will be easier to establish new food plots since the timber is gone.
I’m getting ready to bid out a 200 acre timber harvest on my NY ground for the reasons above. I’m not afraid of the disruption at all. The longer term benefits will outweigh the mess and disturbance.
Good luck!
Do you know what the timber rights sold for?
Is there a forestry plan in place for the land or is it just "take whatever you can get?"
As for "it will be a mess" you can always hire a forestry mulcher to come in and clean up after. Yeah, added expense.
I agree,have someone look at contract.If they aren't cutting every tree you can always plant bareroot seedings back in the tops and it help to protect them.
My land was harvested in 2015. We bought it in 2021. There was no management plan, everything of value was taken. When I had a management plan written in 2022 the forester estimated I have 8-10k of value left in the 68 acres of woods. Most of it in a 10 acre section that is logistically hard to get equipment to.
The result is a thick forest full of food, and plenty of wildlife. The only gripe I have is the lack of roads in the woods. In your case perhaps you could work with the person harvesting and get them to build you great access.
Ive hunted pine plantations my whole career.Clearing doesn't hurt hunting.For that price I'd get it then develop it the way I wanted after they're done-meet the loggers they'll know someone you can hire to reclaim it.$1500/acre is hard to find
One of the best hunting pieces I own was logged months before we closed. It all depends on how heavily they log it and as long as the price reflects the lost timber. As for me, I pay money to thin my woods, so in certain instances for hunting purposes, the logging could benefit you.
Is it pine? I’m assuming it is since you mentioned the binding timber deed did not mention planting after the harvest.
I’m not sure if the industry presence in your area. You gotta consider it’ll likely be strong enough to incentive the planting. At least that’s what I’d bank on.
You'll likely get two harvests off this planting. it’ll get thinned at about 10 years old and harvested for logs and pulp at 20-25 years old.
I don’t know your age but, there’s a possibility for several payouts if you are young enough. Keep in mind that’ll you likely have to spray it while the stand is still young. To kill the hardwoods that will over take planted pine in short order. So, that’s a cost you must consider.
The days of buying land and having a resource on it that pays for it are over for the most part. However, investing in timber land that pays off in the future is doable in planted pine country. You just gotta decide if it’s right for you to own it in between those times.
It’s important to take notice of advice from guys selling hard woods and guys in the pine plantations of the south. Planted pine is going to far out produce hardwood timber with returns on the investment. You’ll harvest 3 full pine plantings in the time it would take to grow and harvest a hardwood stand. For return on the investment, planted pine is the king.
Good luck with your decision.
If your my age I’d pass. If I was 40 and had 30 years more to hunt I’d buy it.
How much ag is in the area?
Mississippi State Extension Service provides a wealth of knowledge for free.I'm having 2 PHD's coming to a hardwood timber tract I purchased last week.Call them and bring a pad and pencil,they are very good at what they do.Getting small tracts of pine cut is getting more difficult and pulpwood cuttings are just about nil.Understand the economics to help set your expectations for your investment.Good Luck!
I live and own land in the area that you are referencing. I would not be scared at all of the scenario that you are describing. Pine timber allows some of the most diverse management options available to outdoorsmen this day in time and more is being learned every day. Depending on the county, the price for the "dirt" does not scare me. It could be a fair price or a very good price, but I don't see it as being extremely overpriced. If the contract is already signed for the timber, there isn't much you can do at this point except negotiate the dirt price. You will want to site prep spray and then re-plant at a minimum I would think, but a clearcut is a clean slate and will allow you to plan for roads and plots without concern of losing timber value. Just lay them out and have the planting crew work around them. There is a decent chance that I will know the harvesting crew if you would like to share in a PM and I could tell you what to expect. Also, I could help you more if I at least knew what county you are looking at.
That's a tough call. I bought 50 acres in 2020; 23 acres of woods, 20 acres of grown over pasture full of thorn trees and roughly 7 acres tillable. In the spring of '21 we had the woods "selectively cut" for the timber, mostly black oak. It was a very nice little woods that turned into a huge mess. It really made me sick for the first year and I don't know that I would do it again, but the profit really helped pay for the ground and the trees probably did need to be thinned. As far as the hunting has gone, hasn't made a difference. I've killed my 2 best deer there and several other nice bucks between me and my son. The canopy is almost back over the entire woods this year and its starting to look more like a regular woods now. The worst part was all of the weeds and briars that grow with the added sunlight. The logger I used is a forester and they did about as good a job as possible pushing up the brush piles. Even got him to bring his dozer back in the summer to even out some ruts. It is surprising how fast a huge pile of brush will break down. I've got trails through the woods that I keep cut down with my brush hog. All in all, it has worked out ok, but not sure I would do that again. I certainly won't have the woods logged again in my lifetime. At 49 I probably could, but that will be up to my son when it's his.
$1,500/acre sounds like a really good price to me. I'd buy all I could at that price where I'm at, but those days are long gone. I paid $2,500 for mine had it logged, paid $3,600 to have the 20 acres of thorn tress pushed up, and put in a ton of sweat equity during the spring lock down in 2020. I now have 25 acres tillable that's drawing a nice rent check and my own woods to hunt, and it's has easily more than doubled what I paid for it. I don't see who you could lose money on a deal like that, but I would definitely want to know what the plan is for the tree harvest. Good luck to you!
Blake, I should have clarified in my original post for some reason I was thinking they kept the logging rights to the parcel... 1500.00 for something they don't make anymore is to me a fair price. Whatever your decision hope the best for you, like someone posted if your up in age fagitabotit, if your a youngster with ambition best thing ever, you will not regret it! scentman
I am 37 so I’m not too old. It’s in the same area of a big national forest and some wmas that I hunt. Thats why I’ve always looked in the area, I can hunt all the same ground I already hunt while also having a little piece to myself and for my family/kids to always have a place to go.
I don’t have all the details yet, I just viewed the piece yesterday and am still asking a ton of questions through the realtor. It is to be clear cut minus leaving an SMZ along the small creek.
It does not quite touch a county road but it does have good deeded access. It’s about 50-100 yards off the main road. All big private owners surrounding it also.
Forest bows, Very minimal Ag in the area. The current owner has some ag land and is looking to get more so he is selling off the non farmable land he has.
Might be a great time to put some ag in and pull all the dear in the area.
I bought 20 acres that had been timbered a few years previous. There were and still are now 15 years later many large stumps, deep grooves in the softer areas from the heavy equipment that was used and thick stands of poplar 12 to 15 feet tall. I’ve planted hundreds of pine spruce and oak along with choke cherry shrubs. The land is coming back but still has a ways to go. It’s a long process so don’t expect it to recover quickly.
As others have said, ask for a copy of the timber deed and look for the description of the timber to be cut. In all likelihood, it will probably specify all merchantable timber within a designated sale area (clearcut), and will not have any type of reforestation clause.
Hopefully they will follow BMPs, which would mean leaving SMZs (buffers) along any creeks/drainages, as well as constructing roads to minimize erosion.
I seriously doubt there is any type of long term reservation, if so, it should be in clearly stated terms (timber reserved, time frame, etc.). It would be an encumbrance to the property and would be recorded in the deed.
Land in Central Mississippi is similar to central Ga as far as soil types, topography, etc., and should have good site quality and yield good growth. It should also have pretty stable timber markets.
I don’t know anything about land values in that area, but it sounds reasonable. You might consider reforestation costs and make an offer accordingly. I received a quote yesterday for 115 acres that I manage here. Chemical site prep (20 oz Arsenal/6 qts glyphosate/ac) and planting 605 tea. Total costs ranged from $235/ac to $290/ac, depending on planting method. I don’t know how firm they are on price, but you might base an offer on that. As the saying goes, the worst thing they can say is “no”!
Good luck!
