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10mm
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Contributors to this thread:
Murph 30-May-24
drycreek 30-May-24
drycreek 30-May-24
molsonarcher 30-May-24
LBshooter 30-May-24
LBshooter 30-May-24
Aces11 30-May-24
MA-PAdeerslayer 30-May-24
Old School 30-May-24
ILbowhntr 30-May-24
HUNT MAN 30-May-24
Corax_latrans 31-May-24
Boreal 31-May-24
Murph 31-May-24
BTM 31-May-24
mountainman 31-May-24
sundowner 31-May-24
KHNC 31-May-24
Glunt@work 31-May-24
David McLendon 31-May-24
Beendare 31-May-24
Brotsky 31-May-24
maxracx 31-May-24
maxracx 31-May-24
Iowabowhunter 31-May-24
Zbone 31-May-24
Beendare 31-May-24
Bowfreak 31-May-24
Zbone 31-May-24
Corax_latrans 31-May-24
bigeasygator 31-May-24
Bowboy 31-May-24
Zbone 31-May-24
spike78 31-May-24
spike78 31-May-24
bigeasygator 31-May-24
70lbDraw 31-May-24
drycreek 31-May-24
Glunt@work 31-May-24
Beendare 31-May-24
Nyati 31-May-24
Corax_latrans 31-May-24
c3 31-May-24
Teeton 31-May-24
Corax_latrans 01-Jun-24
Teeton 01-Jun-24
Murph 01-Jun-24
g5smoke21 01-Jun-24
Beendare 01-Jun-24
Glunt@work 01-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 01-Jun-24
Jeff Durnell 01-Jun-24
jordanathome 01-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 01-Jun-24
spike78 01-Jun-24
Rgiesey 01-Jun-24
Matt 01-Jun-24
Huntiam 02-Jun-24
bigeasygator 02-Jun-24
molsonarcher 02-Jun-24
bigeasygator 02-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 02-Jun-24
Beendare 02-Jun-24
spike78 02-Jun-24
Matt 02-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 02-Jun-24
Murph 02-Jun-24
Zbone 02-Jun-24
Catscratch 02-Jun-24
Zbone 02-Jun-24
spike78 03-Jun-24
IdyllwildArcher 03-Jun-24
Zbone 04-Jun-24
Genesis 04-Jun-24
Beendare 04-Jun-24
APauls 04-Jun-24
jordanathome 04-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 04-Jun-24
spike78 04-Jun-24
Matt 04-Jun-24
Glunt@work 04-Jun-24
Ironbow 04-Jun-24
bluedog 04-Jun-24
Glunt@work 04-Jun-24
RK 04-Jun-24
Matt 05-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 05-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 05-Jun-24
DanaC 05-Jun-24
Zbone 05-Jun-24
Bowfreak 05-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 05-Jun-24
Zbone 05-Jun-24
Ron Niziolek 05-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 05-Jun-24
Zbone 05-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 05-Jun-24
Zbone 05-Jun-24
Glunt@work 05-Jun-24
Beendare 06-Jun-24
spike78 06-Jun-24
Bigwoods 06-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 06-Jun-24
drycreek 06-Jun-24
Zbone 06-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 06-Jun-24
Dirtman 06-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 07-Jun-24
DanaC 07-Jun-24
Beendare 07-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 07-Jun-24
drycreek 07-Jun-24
Catscratch 07-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 07-Jun-24
Thornton 07-Jun-24
Catscratch 07-Jun-24
Beendare 08-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 09-Jun-24
IdyllwildArcher 10-Jun-24
DanaC 10-Jun-24
Zbone 10-Jun-24
Nyati 10-Jun-24
Zbone 10-Jun-24
DanaC 10-Jun-24
Zbone 10-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 10-Jun-24
DanaC 10-Jun-24
Zbone 10-Jun-24
Nyati 10-Jun-24
Zbone 10-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 10-Jun-24
Shaft2Long 11-Jun-24
Supernaut 11-Jun-24
Corax_latrans 11-Jun-24
From: Murph
30-May-24
Gonna be hunting grizzly country this fall and have been shopping 10mm handguns I can wear on a bino holster, I’ve shot Glock 20’s but I have never been much of a Glock guy they’ve never been very shoot able for me and to get a stock Glock the way I want it it will be a few hundred more $ to get it the way I want it, however this new Sig P320 x ten comp, really has my attention, open to suggestions as to what others have shot or experienced reliability issues etc

From: drycreek
30-May-24
Put your hands on a S&W M&P and see how you like it. I have a G20 as well as a 1911 in 10mm, but the Smith is my favorite by far.

From: drycreek
30-May-24

drycreek's embedded Photo
drycreek's embedded Photo
Forgot the pic

From: molsonarcher
30-May-24
You will love the Sig. I dont personally have one, but shoot a fruends every chance I get. I have shot the Glock, and its ok, but when I buy one, its going to be the Sig.

From: LBshooter
30-May-24
Reliability is key and it’s hard to beat a Glock. I have a 20 and it is very accurate pistol , for the money it’s hard to beat.

From: LBshooter
30-May-24
Reliability is key and it’s hard to beat a Glock. I have a 20 and it is very accurate pistol , for the money it’s hard to beat.

From: Aces11
30-May-24
I am no expert, but I always carry a Springfield XDM. I have no complaints.

30-May-24
Sig.

From: Old School
30-May-24
I shoot a Springfield XDM a lot more accurately than I do a Glock. Personal preference.

From: ILbowhntr
30-May-24
I’ll stick with my Glock 20.

From: HUNT MAN
30-May-24
Glock was my choice. Shot Sig , S/W and an off brand. For me it was an easy choice.

31-May-24
Buddy of mine (Airborne/Ranger) really loves his Sig… I figure he knows things that I don’t.

But I don’t really understand why people gravitate towards high capacity magazines when their chances of getting off more than maybe 5 shots are probably close to Nil. Why the hell would you pack all of that weight around???

From: Boreal
31-May-24
You don't HAVE to keep the magazine at full capacity. That's like saying they shouldn't make big gas tanks because small tanks are cheaper to fill.

From: Murph
31-May-24

Murph's embedded Photo
Murph's embedded Photo
One of the big reasons for the high capacity polymer guns is weight Corax, with most of them weight around 30-35 ounces my S&W model 29 loaded weighs 49 ounces, your right about the amount of shots you get off but these aren’t 2 legged predators where we’re gonna exchange fire and I get behind a car and reload my wheel gun, when the shit hits the fan with a bear their is no option for a reload unless they retreat and come back for a second wave, capacity is important though too, a Glock or sig holds almost as many rnds as 3 reloads with a wheel gun it just makes more sense to me, not to mention it won’t bother me to abuse it unlike this beautiful 29-2..

From: BTM
31-May-24
++ Murph.

From: mountainman
31-May-24
I carry the glock 29 in those situations. Shoots plenty accurate for me.

From: sundowner
31-May-24
I carry a Colt Delta Elite 1911 style semi auto in 1911. Loaded with my own recipe with Blue Dot powder it's more powerful than 357 magnum and comparable to the 41 magnum.

From: KHNC
31-May-24
I use a gunfighters inc chest rig under my bino harness, and practice a lot. Glock G22-Gen 3 with Underwood Ammo hard cast ammo. Don't waste your money dealing with Buffalo Bore. Their service is absolute garbage!! Underwood or Double Tap is much better place to purchase cast ammo.

From: Glunt@work
31-May-24
If you go with a Glock, put a lot of rounds downrange and plenty of time dry firing. Good guns but point high for many folks. No issue if you train but can be an issue if its only used in an emergency.

Obviously practice matters regardless but where the web between the thumb and forefinger sits and grip angle leads to many people pointing high when they first pick one up.

31-May-24
Shooting a bear with a pistol would be a bad situation, I sprayed once but never shot. I used to carry a Delta Elite with Underwood to AK but switched back to a S&W 629 3" Trail Boss in a Gunfighter's Inc Kenai chest holster. Wheel guns don't jam, if it doesn't shoot, pull the trigger again.

From: Beendare
31-May-24
Stock G20 guy here.

I have over 700rds of a couple HC rds through mine- not one hiccup. Keep it stock.

Its pretty common, You have to put 500 to 1,000 rds through a Glock to get to know and like them.

You can put in an Apex trigger kit giving them a better trigger right out of the gate- if you want to speed up the process.

From: Brotsky
31-May-24
Glock 20 here as well. Upgraded the recoil spring is the only mod.

From: maxracx
31-May-24

maxracx's Link
Murph, I am a fan of the S/W MP. I have one in 9mm as well as 10mm. I recently came across a YouTube video put out by Vortex optics that I found to be very informative. They did some serious testing between the two calibers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We_aHSA2Pbc&t=1399s

From: maxracx
31-May-24
Not sure why the link starts at the 23 min mark but scroll back to the beginning.

31-May-24
I’m looking at the FN 510 tactical-good for bear + home defense.

I don’t shoot glocks well

From: Zbone
31-May-24
Yeah in the link liked how they showed no need for hand cannon to penetrate completely though a simulated big brown bear skull and how the 9MM is adequate with those same Buffalo bore 147 grain hard cast bullets Master Guide Phil Shoemaker killed a brown bear with...

From: Beendare
31-May-24
Stock G20 guy here.

I have over 700rds of a couple HC rds through mine- not one hiccup. Keep it stock.

You have to put 500 to 1,000 rds through a Glock to get to know them. You can put an Apex trigger kit in them if you want to speed up the process.

From: Bowfreak
31-May-24
"Wheel guns don't jam, if it doesn't shoot, pull the trigger again. "

David....watch this video.

I am pretty sure I remember him saying this was a Taurus revolver on a podcast. Definitely a revolver.

From: Zbone
31-May-24
Taurus revolver jammed after the first shot, I've never owned a Taurus and never will... Have heard they have improved their quality in recent years, but still too many stories of poor qualities and failures in the past for me to ever buy one...

31-May-24
Didn’t everyone here come to the conclusion that the bullet in the round that jammed the revolver had escaped its crimp enough to be too long overall? So yes, there was a jam, but arguably the fault of the ammo manufacturer, rather than the gun itself…. Hair-splitting difference when you’re being chewed on, of course…

From: bigeasygator
31-May-24

bigeasygator's embedded Photo
bigeasygator's embedded Photo
Glock 20 for me. I own lots of Sigs but wouldn’t touch a 320 based on the issues I’ve seen with the 9mm version.

From: Bowboy
31-May-24
Glock 20 for me. It’s light and carry’s a lot of fire power. I don’t have large hands but I shoot it well. Carry what ever but make sure you’re proficient with it.

From: Zbone
31-May-24
Corax_latrans - "Didn’t everyone here come to the conclusion that the bullet in the round that jammed the revolver had escaped its crimp enough to be too long overall? " No, I hadn't heard that, but have heard of that happening with heavy recoil guns... Curious, what ammo caused the Taurus to jam?

From: spike78
31-May-24
BEG I’m impressed man although I’d say a red dot would be a no no for bear protection.

From: spike78
31-May-24
I like my Sig 365xl not for bears but never had a malfunction.

From: bigeasygator
31-May-24
All my pistols that I trust my life on carry red dots. That’s a closed emitter optic so it’s really easy to clean the lens and have a clear dot. I have backup irons on it in case something completely unpredictable happens.

From: 70lbDraw
31-May-24
I’ve got an LCR 357. I often wonder if it’s really just a false sense of security, can I depend solely upon the gun, or do you carry spray regardless? I can stand and admit, that, if I get into a close up with a bear, I’m not giving myself good odds. That thought doesn’t bother me much here in NM, but I start getting nervous in MT, ID. To me, the thought of encountering a grizzly rates right up there with being in a plane crash. I prefer not put myself in the situation unless absolutely necessary.

So what is a true consensus of folks that use spray? Do most of you use it, and carry? Do you carry only? If I don’t have to kill the bear, I prefer not to have to. Which deterrent keeps them further away…in your opinion?

My apologies if I ran this outside of the OPs scope of topic.

From: drycreek
31-May-24
BEG, maybe you can borrow an Allen wrench from the bear. ;-))

Just kidding, I’m a fan of red dots too. Old age and a retina problem in my right eye precludes the use of irons for me at distances farther than about 20 feet. If you practice your draw and presentation enough it gets pretty easy to put that dot on the money.

From: Glunt@work
31-May-24
As for Taurus quality, I only own one and its newer. I have a G3C 9mm that I really like. Hundreds of rounds and has ran flawless with multiple ammo types and multiple mags.

Its not my main defense choice but I have owned (own) way more expensive choices that had their share of issues. For a sub $300, polymer, striker fired with 3 mags its been great. No big deal if it gets dinged up or lost.

From: Beendare
31-May-24
Hey 70#….the spray can work in ideal conditions

You ever been on Kodiak or parts of Alaska when the wind is really blowing? It better be in the right direction. I was on an island in Alaska when an outbound group of teenagers was charged by a bear that they had sprayed, he ran right through the cloud of spray..

What about spray in your tent?

I bet I can draw and shoot 5 rounds from my G20 in the time I get the spray can ready to go. If you decide on spray, make sure you get a couple extra cans to practice with and keep those cans current because they do expire..

From: Nyati
31-May-24

Nyati 's embedded Photo
Nyati 's embedded Photo
My 10mm is a Glock

31-May-24
“can I depend solely upon the gun, or do you carry spray regardless? ”

I’ve gotten the impression that the folks who spend the most time around grizzlies carry Both. Let’s face it — unless your name is Miculek, your chances of an effective discharge are WAY better with the pattern you get from the spray. Unless the wind is blowing back at you….

JMO…. From a pure logistical standpoint, you are better off using the spray first (if you can), because A) you’re a lot less likely to miss and B) you probably don’t actually want to go through the process of a DLP Shooting investigation any more than you want to C) have to contend with a wounded bear in the area you’re hunting….. so the spray is probably the best bet overall, despite being a whole lot less Heroic. It also weighs a lot less, so you’re more likely to have it on you when you need it…. Years ago, I hunted with a guy who brought a Smith .357 to camp, and after the first day, it stayed in the tent. I was more concerned about it disappearing from the tent while we were up the hill than needing it with us. But that was just one camp-raiding black bear to deal with…

From: c3
31-May-24
I have a 20 as well, but that M&P is looking epic and needs some testing from me @drycreek !!!

Cheers, Pete

From: Teeton
31-May-24
I've seen talk not all in this post about 9mm, 10mm, 40 but how about a 38 super? I'm planning a moose hunt in bear country. We talked about pistols and a Mossberg 12ga. there maybe 3 of us. 2 hunting moose and a guy that wants to tag along and fish some. The guy that wants to fish has been to Alaska a bunch of times, his son live there. We are planning a float trip. I have a 38 super colt 1911 that's why I'm asking about the 38 super. Not a big gun guy so didn't really want to buy a gun just for this trip.

01-Jun-24
Can you get substantial, hard-cast bullets loaded into .38 Super ammo, and if so, will your pistol function with it? Seems a good place to start…

From: Teeton
01-Jun-24
As of right now, I have not been able to find any hard cast for the 38 super. Didn't try and see if any are available for reloading.

I gave thought of buying a 10mm used and maybe sell after hunts over.

From: Murph
01-Jun-24
Maybe ask the veteran in Teton national park from Massachusetts that got chewed on by a sow a couple weeks ago , whether he wishes he had a gun, the bear spray finally deterred her when she sunk her canines into the can going for the man’s throat, regardless of my effectiveness with a pistol I’d rather die with an empty pistol in my hand then an empty can of bear spray, no statistical data will ever change my opinion on that..

From: g5smoke21
01-Jun-24
I have been shooting a s&w model 69 combat in 44mag. That gun isn't so fun to shoot. I just picked up a glock 20

From: Beendare
01-Jun-24
Now thats a strategy….hold out the can and hope they bite into it.

I always look at the source when getting advice. The majority of folks recommending spray are Park Ranger types that just don’t want these bears shot….if its you or the bear- they choose the bear.

I think the hard Cast penetrating Ammo will prove out to be the game changer- from any pistol caliber.

From: Glunt@work
01-Jun-24
I'm sure there's options to handload 38 super hard cast. Plenty of .356, .357 diameter offerings.

01-Jun-24
“no statistical data will ever change my opinion on that..”

Yeah, there’s a lot of that going around these days, on any number of subjects….

“Now thats a strategy….hold out the can and hope they bite into it. I always look at the source when getting advice. The majority of folks recommending spray are Park Ranger types that just don’t want these bears shot….if its you or the bear- they choose the bear.”

Or maybe the “Park Ranger types” would just rather not have large numbers of people packing sidearms and/or creating Wounded Bear situations for them to clean up?? Also, the spray wears off. I would guess that when people do have time to deploy their chosen deterrent, they probably do so unnecessarily, at least a chunk of the time. If they use spray, that’s Adverse Conditioning and a bear which will probably live a good, full life of avoiding future conflicts; if they use a firearm, that’s just a loss to the species and (I would bet you a dollar) a whole lot more paperwork to deal with after the fact….

Funny thing…. I have often thought that a good (if somewhat drastic) method for reeducating a persistent, camp-raiding bear would be smear a can of Bear spray with bacon grease and honey, and set that out slightly down-wind of your camp….

From: Jeff Durnell
01-Jun-24
I have a couple of S&W M&P M 2.0 45's that I carry regularly. I wouldn't mind having one in 10mm just for something different. Glocks are not for me.

From: jordanathome
01-Jun-24
Carry my 10mm glock with a mix of heavy solid and hornady critical defense ammo. Glad I've never had to shoot it in defense yet. Came close a couple years ago when I had a blackie walk up to me and lean on a log under 10 yards away, licking it chops staring at me, totally unimpressed with my standing and waving arms and yelling at it to go away. Deployed a can of bear spray only to have it merely dribble out. Was down to the 10mm if the bear made a move towards me....but it got up bored and ambled back the way it came after several minutes that felt like 30. First blackie I ever encountered that did not turn tail and hot foot away from me when it first saw me. Wish I'd had the balls to take pics but it was WAY to close to take any chances. I wasn't scared, but I was very concerned and on high alert. If it had been a bullwinkle I'd have been scared with dirty undies. LOL Love my glock

01-Jun-24
“I have been shooting a s&w model 69 combat in 44mag. That gun isn't so fun to shoot. “

How does it treat you with .44 Specials?

From: spike78
01-Jun-24
BEG I tried to like the red dot but after buying the Sig red dot and it eating through a battery in less than 3 months I took it off. Those reviews were correct on it not lasting long.

From: Rgiesey
01-Jun-24
We still carry bear spray in or packs but reliant on guns. Last year I sprayed quite a few cans in camp. Just not impressed with the volume of cloud and effect of wind. I have both Glock 20 and S n W but have shot the Glock more so I carry that

From: Matt
01-Jun-24
It is not uncommon for bears to return shortly after being sprayed. Another reason spray is not the best option.

From: Huntiam
02-Jun-24
Smith and Wesson model 610 revolver 10mm …I’ve saw this round put through at least 50 black bears ..never a griz tho . I will promise you it’s a badass .

From: bigeasygator
02-Jun-24
“BEG I tried to like the red dot but after buying the Sig red dot and it eating through a battery in less than 3 months I took it off.”

Battery life is going to be very dependent on the type of red dot. The ones I use nearly all have 50k hour battery life (so about 5 years of run time). Many also use a solar backup and shake awake technology to further prolong battery life and provide a contingency plan.

Nonetheless, I have an alarm set every year to swap out the battery on my guns (I’ve got about 20 in all that I swap out). So I’m generally very confident that there will be a dot there when I grab a sight picture.

From: molsonarcher
02-Jun-24
Spike, Sig red dots suck. Just about anything else is better. Im a fan of the holosun models. Mych better option IMO.

From: bigeasygator
02-Jun-24
What molson said. Sig makes some okay rifle optics that I’ve got on a few guns. But I don’t know of anyone who Carrie’s pistols for a living who puts an Sig on their gun. Holosun, Aimpoint, and Trijicon are pretty much the only serious players in the pistol red dot game.

02-Jun-24
“It is not uncommon for bears to return shortly after being sprayed. Another reason spray is not the best option.”

Devil’s Advocate:

If you spray a bear and it doesn’t come back, the spray has done its job.

If you spray a bear and that buys you enough time to vacate the area or move away from whatever the bear is protecting, the spray has done its job.

If you spray a bear and that buys you enough time to bring a firearm into play and deploy it effectively, the spray has done its job. Call me crazy, but if a bear which has been hit hard enough with the spray to run it off) should come at you a second time, it’s not unreasonable to assume that it will not be bluffing…

Anyway, just seems like spray is a good first line of defense, even if not necessarily sufficient in all cases….

From: Beendare
02-Jun-24
Lots of "Ifs" and "Buts" there CL....

I have a couple Elk spots just outside of Yellowstone......You carry spray and let us know how it works out.

From: spike78
02-Jun-24
Yes and the only reason I bought the Sig red dot was because I had a gift card to the local gun shop and they did not have Holosun. I gave Sig the benefit of the doubt and the reviews were correct. And mind you the gun sat motionless for most of that time so it wasn’t like it was carried daily.

From: Matt
02-Jun-24
I’d rather have a first line of defense that is well demonstrated to work effectively - regardless of wind direction.

02-Jun-24
“You carry spray and let us know how it works out.”

In exchange for the specifics on a genuinely good Elk-hunting spot, that’s a pretty tempting deal….

Look… TONS of people carry spray only, and when they use it successfully…. You basically never hear about it.

Maulings make the news. Casualties make the news. Grizzlies being killed make the news. Close, non-contact encounters make the news… IF the video is good enough…

Just me, I’m pretty sure that I could get even a “slow” SA revolver out of the holster, cocked, and pointed in the general direction of an oncoming threat faster than I could get a can of spray out of its “holster”, safeties off, can up and ready to spray in a productive direction….. But I’m also pretty sure that my chances of an effective “hit” (especially on a moving target) are way better with a spray can than with a single projectile. Or even several, should time allow. And I’m gonna guess that a bear that’s angry enough to shake off the effects of pepper spray is angry enough to keep coming until you hit it in the brain or the spine, so either way, you’re hosed.

You do you.

From: Murph
02-Jun-24
We will, so drop it , your the one chasing statistics and your own moral response, I never started this post because I wanted someone’s opinion on whether spray was better then a gun, frankly I don’t give a f@$& I know I will have a pistol on my side I’ve already made my own morale decision, I strictly wanted someone’s opinion on the best one!!

From: Zbone
02-Jun-24
Teeton - I mentioned the .38 Super in the "Big bore revolver", it's a fine caliber and and would say sufficient for bear protection:

"I think the .38 Super is a great round, it's like a suped up 9MM ballistics comparable to the 40 S&W and/or .357 and would make a nice sidearm for Alaska... The smoothest, nicest, sweetest handgun I ever shot was a 1911 Commander size competition race gun in .38 Super... Aside from a .22, it had the quickest site recovery back on target that would be handy on a charging bear... It was a pretty powerful cartridge with low recoil... Owner was a BCI agent"

From: Catscratch
02-Jun-24
I have quite a few styles of pistols and have shot IDPA and 3-gun. In a self defense situation I'd choose a shotgun first every time! If a pistol is a must I'd personally go with a Glock. No safeties to worry about and with the number of rounds I've put through one they move to target very naturally. I think the most important part of anything I said is "with the number of rounds I've put through one...". Decide soon and start shooting. A lot. My favorite saying; Never put yourself in a situation to say I wish I would have...

From: Zbone
02-Jun-24

Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
9MM left, .38 Super right

From: spike78
03-Jun-24
Or a 357 Sig would pretty much be around 38 Super velocity and maybe more common.

03-Jun-24
The gun vs spray debate is only ever going to go one way when the conversation is amongst a bunch of Tim Allen-type middle-aged and older hunters. Let's be real here, that's our demographic and spray could be demonstrably better and most of us are going to prefer a gun.

I've been charged by grizzlies 3 times: 1 time I sprayed the bear, 1 time I deployed my Glock 20 and fired 3 shots, and the 3rd time I had spray at the ready, but the bear turned at 15 yards so I never sprayed.

I'll tell you from my experience, that the thing I feel safest with is neither of them, but rather, a shotgun. It's just not feasible to always have a shotgun over your shoulder. I keep one in the raft or at basecamp.

But I honestly believe that under a circumstance where there is little to no wind and you have time to deploy it, that the spray is superior. A 10mm just doesn't faze a charging grizzly unless you shoot it in the brain and I know people practice a lot and like to think of themselves as ready, but it's just plain and simply really tough to hit a moving target accurately.

If you practice with spray just a little, it's damn near impossible to miss. It just isn't an option if it's really windy or if you're in a tent, etc. And you have to let the bear get really close for the spray to hit it.

I carry both and when I get above the blueberries around 3500-4000 feet where it starts to get rare to see a grizz, I only carry spray and leave the pistol at camp if it's a spike because even the lightest gun is very heavy and weight is paramount in the sheep/goat mountains. Spray shines here because it weighs so much less.

From: Zbone
04-Jun-24
No way would be out in any kind of grizzly country without a sidearm, I even carried a Colt Delta Elete 10MM while hunting Colorado's wildernesses just for a piece of mind...

From: Genesis
04-Jun-24
“Dying ain’t much of living boy” So for me,I want my obituary to read I went down ashootin’ and not asprayin’

From: Beendare
04-Jun-24
????funny…I like that….

And good to see you still around. Your boys must be solid adults by now….

From: APauls
04-Jun-24
Dang it, I saw the thread title and thought you found my socket...

From: jordanathome
04-Jun-24
damn, Adam.....damn........

04-Jun-24
Question is, would you rather stop a charge with spray than get mauled when your sidearm failed to do so?

The whole thing boils down to Ego and Anger. Turning a charge with spray is not seen by most bloodsport-oriented outdoorsmen as Manly And Heroic, but Lethal Force…. yeah, Baby — GIT SUMM!!

Gun Guys always debate how many times they could pull the trigger in a couple of seconds, but you only have to hit the spray button once and hold it, plus you can see where the spray is going and correct your aim, and there’s no recoil to recover from, and the whole time you’re hitting the trigger on the spray can, you’re just making the fog of spray taller, wider, deeper and thicker. And I’ve probably said this already, but a bear that’s not deterred by spray in its face probably won’t be any more discouraged by a couple of bullets striking anywhere but the central nervous system. Either way, you’re gonna get hit.

From: spike78
04-Jun-24
Idyll if I was charged by Grizzlies 3 different times that’s when I’d call it quits ha. I had a black bear walk up to me while I was hunting in NJ and I never felt helpless like I did that day and it was under 200 pounds lol.

From: Matt
04-Jun-24
“Question is, would you rather stop a charge with spray than get mauled when your sidearm failed to do so?”

Given sidearms and bear spray are both ~90% effective in stopping a bear attack, that isn’t the question at all. That is just an attempt by someone to falsely frame the debate in a manner that is supportive of their best guess.

From: Glunt@work
04-Jun-24
I choose a gun and I can assure you its not ego or machismo driven. If either I screw up or just the odds catch me and I get a real charge, I want my hunting buddies and I to go home when its over. My pick is just based on that. I'm not against spray but if one has to stay home, its the spray.

Having both available is good but not always practical. A lot less paperwork with spray if it works. The important part is working to do things right and reduce the odds of a situation.

From: Ironbow
04-Jun-24
How many of you have actually used spray on anything? Bears, vicious dogs, etc. I have used it on dogs many times and it works! At least 6 times on big dogs that absolutely were trying to eat me.

I love guns and have to qualify at least twice a year due to a security gig I do. So I shoot often. But the spray flat out works.

I also work in a max security prison. Works good there too ;-)

From: bluedog
04-Jun-24
Still chuckling about the lost socket...

From: Glunt@work
04-Jun-24
Between Toyotas and snowmobiles, I've order a little bag of just 10mm sockets a couple times.

From: RK
04-Jun-24
We don't have Bears but we do have dogs and people. Spray is the answer for those two problems.

I think remote with Grizzly the gun is the answer.

From: Matt
05-Jun-24

Matt's Link
Article titled “ The couple killed by a bear in Banff were able to send an SOS text: 'Bear attack bad'”

From the article:

“ It seems that not even the best preparations could have prevented the fatal attack. When a Wildlife Human Attack Response Team reached the campsite, they found a bear-proof food bag hanging in a tree, as recommended. A discharged can of bear spray was also found at the site, implying the campers had tried to force the animal to leave.”

I bet that couple wished they had a sidearm to stop the charge after their bear spray failed to do so.

05-Jun-24
I’m going with Ike’s answer.

Just for the record, if I were going to hunt a drainage known to be part of the home range of one or more grizzlies, I’d want my .45/70 in camp, spray handy to my weak hand and the biggest, baddest pistol I’d be willing to carry on my strong side. Suspenders and a belt and then some.

05-Jun-24
“ I bet that couple wished they had a sidearm to stop the charge after their bear spray failed to do so.”

In camp. Sidearm? Heff Dat. Shotgun or rifle.

From: DanaC
05-Jun-24
"I’d want my .45/70 in camp"

Preferred load?

From: Zbone
05-Jun-24

Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
380 gr. Mono-Metal WFN @ 2,075 fps / 3,632 ft-lbs 20 Round Box

ITEM 8DG 380

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=546

From: Bowfreak
05-Jun-24
Why am I not surprised that Corax is an expert on bear/human interactions?

05-Jun-24
Well, a Cowboy Action load for a .45/70 makes 99 44/100ths % of pistols look like capguns, so there’s maybe no express reason to go crazy, but the hotter loads are a viable option if your rifle can take the pressure….

Definitely a heavier bullet made to penetrate; hollowpoints for this round make no sense at all to me, because these bullets are basically pre-expanded…

Even Green-box 405 grain Core-lokts are probably a significant upgrade from most 12-ga slugs….

From: Zbone
05-Jun-24

Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo

Zbone's Link
Found this stopping power comparison of 12 gauge shotgun slugs to rifle calibers interesting, although they publish here the old 405 grain 45-70 trapdoor balistics (the old Bison killers) but with modern guns and ammo the 45-70 has a wide range of bullets loads and balistics like the magnum load I posted above:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug

I have a single shot H&R 45-70, but if I actually needed protection from a charging grizzly, I'd sure prefer my 12 gauge Remington 1100 stoked with high velocity slugs and buckshot... I remember reading about Alaskan guide Jay Massey stating he kept some kind of a single shot 45-70 device (could only assume it was some kind of single shot pistol) in camp, and I'm like, if I was in Alaska wilderness, I'd want something more than a single shot...

Funny how these threads weave from 10MM to 45-70...8^)

From: Ron Niziolek
05-Jun-24
Murph, we carry Glock 20’s and are happy with them.

05-Jun-24
“ Funny how these threads weave from 10MM to 45-70...”

Yup. Beats talking politics…. LOL

Interesting table…. I read somewhere (in a Gun Rag article, many years ago) that a .45/70 can be hot-loaded (along the lines of the Buffalo Bore above) to nearly .458 Win Mag levels…. That writer’s assertion was comparing a custom hot load to Factory Standard spec, which sells the .458 considerably short, but if a .458 Win Mag was good enough for Dirty Harry…. LOL

My shotgun’s a 20 ga double (skeet/skeet), but I have the 1895, which can handle some pretty potent stuff, were I of a mind to get smacked around a bit. Have not had occasion to test my tolerance.. It’s not light or handy like the Guide Gun, but it’s got some capacity and unlike your H&R, it’s a repeater… :D

From: Zbone
05-Jun-24

Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo

Zbone's Link
On that chart a 1 once shotgun slug traveling 1,760 FPS has better stopping power than a .458 Win Mag...

Earlier, I posted the following over on the "Big bore revolver" thread"

https://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=502304&messages=20&forum=2#5296675

Back in the day when I was planning a solo hunt to Alaska I bought this Franchi 48 AL 20 gauge autoloader... Can't read the scale (5 lbs. 6 oz) from the photo but it was the lightest 20 gauge on the market at the time... Some guys around here carried them on organized deer drives for all day walking because they are so lightweight... It's a youth model so I added the recoil pad to fit me better and reduced the barrel length to 18-1/2"... I then got a holster/scabbard to fit it and wear it like a back quiver being able to draw it from over my shoulder like pulling an arrow...

I was going to stoke it with buckshot, slug, buckshot, slug, buckshot... I think I could stop a grizzly with it and would come in handy in a survival situation...

05-Jun-24
But that’s the Taylor Knock-Out formula, right?? And it really only applies to shooting Heffalumps in the head, IIRC… If memory serves, the 12-ga looks great on paper in part because it penetrates poorly.. And Bell shot unbelievable numbers of elephants with the (relatively) anemic 7X57 Mauser 175 gr FMJ…. Because Penetration trumps sheer impact. That’s why they stopped making the colossal double rifles in 8 and 4 gauges….

I don’t know if anybody makes it (or even if it could be done, just because of pressures), but an 1894 Guide Gun kind of a deal in .500 JRH seems like it’d be persuasive…. Might have to go to the 1895 in .500 Smith to get a strong enough action…

From: Zbone
05-Jun-24
Can only assume the smaller diameter 20 gauge with 1 ounce slugs will penetrate further than a 12 gauge 1 ounce slug, only thing is none commercially available traveling the same velocity to find out... I bet those Brenneke 20 gauge Green Lightning Magnum slugs are bad azz...8^)

From: Glunt@work
05-Jun-24
My first trip to Kodiak I took a 21" barrel Rem 870. Smooth bore with rifle sights. Weather kept us from getting out very far from town but had a great time duck hunting. Surprising how well no choke and rifle sights worked. One side benefit of a shotgun.

From: Beendare
06-Jun-24

Beendare's Link
Who needs a 10mm…when a hot woman in a bikini calms them right down, youtube link

From: spike78
06-Jun-24
In regards to a charging bear at 20 yards I’m guessing the difference in a 12 gauge slug and a 45/70 is negligible. In that case it’s 100% where you hit it.

From: Bigwoods
06-Jun-24
I like the M and P. I would never own a Glock. The grips are terrible-feels like a 2x4 to me and no safety optiions.

06-Jun-24
“ I bet those Brenneke 20 gauge Green Lightning Magnum slugs are bad azz...”

Or maybe those 20-ga sabot rounds which basically are a 405 Core-lokt in a Dixie Cup. Or am I thinking of the “Partition Gold” rounds? I know PG rifle bullets are not intended to expand anywhere near the way that the original Partition does, but I suspect that the slugs are intended for use on softer targets (deer) at longer distances, rather than slamming through a whole deer’s worth of muscle and twice the bone at bad-breath distance…. And bullets are designed for specific applications so that they will actually do what you are asking of them, so it pays to understand the assignment…

“ I’m guessing the difference in a 12 gauge slug and a 45/70 is negligible”

If you hit the brain case, sure. But anywhere else, my money is on the .45/70 (especially with an appropriate heavy load) unless it’s loaded with some flying ashtray of a hollowpoint.

But think about what you’re going to hit if you have a close miss of that brain on a bear that’s coming straight at you…. which is a LOT of muscle and some big bones.

Apart from maybe one Capstick article involving a leopard, I don’t think I have ever heard of a PH carrying a shotgun. PH is pretty much synonymous with Stopping Rifle, and those tend to be not only a lot more potent than any slug load. Also, those loads tend to emphasize limited-expansion/non-expanding bullets. Maybe there’s an exception for following up on wounded lions?

If I already owned a 12-ga pump or semi, I think I would load it up with slugs specifically intended to penetrate like crazy; tell your wife what you have to, but there’s probably no real and specific NEED to run out and buy a .45/70 or any other heavy rifle if you’re only going to suffer through sighting it in and then hope to never have to shoot it again — but I have no doubt that I could find a load for my already-paid-for 1895 which would outperform a slug. ANY slug.

It would hurt.

From: drycreek
06-Jun-24
Corax, I’ve read several articles about going after wounded leopards with a shotgun. I think it’s pretty standard fare, especially in the dark or near dark when most leopards are shot. I also think it would be a good idea.

People tend to disparage buckshot, but that just depends on how close you are. A heavy load (think 3” mag) of 00 buck is a pretty devastating wad of lead hitting in a small area if you are in a defensive situation. It ain’t dangerous if it ain’t close……right ? I know it’s anecdotal at best, but the one deer that I ever shot at with buckshot was literally slapped down to the ground by a 2 3/4” load of 00 buck. All nine pellets hit him at about 30 yards give or take. This was when I was just a kid and only had enough money for one long gun, it had to be a shotgun because ducks, doves, quail, and squirrels were my main targets. There weren’t enough deer in this part of the world to own a “deer rifle” at that time. ;-))

From: Zbone
06-Jun-24
3", 12 gauge #4 buckshot of 41 pellets is devastating too, especially under 10 yards.... At a dump I shot a stand up stripped out refrigerator with a 19-3/16" open choke barrel and the load knocked the dang thing over... I was like, WOW!

06-Jun-24
Yeah, I ran across a data table showing that 00 penetrated deeper (by about an inch) than 12-ga slugs— in ballistic gel, anyway.

Buckshot may well be the tool of choice for leopards (so I guess cougars, too ;) ), but Capstick was a prolific writer of Dangerous Game Close-Call stories, and I have seen his veracity, ummmmm….Challenged, from time to time…..

When I was about 15, it was all True to me, and I couldn’t get enough of that stuff…. LOL

But “knockdown power” is a myth, escalated by Hollywood depictions of otherwise ordinary firearms which are somehow capable of throwing a large man right through a wall. I’ll just say that’s inconsistent with my understanding of the laws of Physics, what with equal and opposite and all….

From: Dirtman
06-Jun-24
TSS #1 buckshot would make nice defense load. Can’t imagine anything could take face full and keep coming. https://www.super18tungstenshot.com/collections/frontpage/products/tss-size-1-buck

07-Jun-24
Devil’s Advocate again: “Stopping Rifle” loads lean toward big, heavy bullets designed Not To expand, and to retain weight, no matter what. Fragmentation is Failure.

But isn’t a load o’ buckshot basically a “big bullet” which has expanded and fragmented before it has even left the barrel?

From: DanaC
07-Jun-24
Many 12 gauge 'sabot' loads closely duplicate 45-70 ballistics - a 300 grain 45 caliber bullet at around 2000 fps. I'd rather carry a Henry or Marlin over a shotgun, but a Beretta A300 tactical style with 7+1 capacity would be fierce. Load it with Barnes all-copper slugs (438 grains) and hang on.

From: Beendare
07-Jun-24
Wow, is someone really saying a shotgun with 00buck is not a stopper at close range? My god……the internet experts are out of control. Do we need more FOC with that to work? Sheesh

I have seen a shotgun with 00buck completely stop a big critter in its tracks. Devastating. i don’t want to get into specifics.

00 buckshot is essentially 8 - .32 cal bullets….and I can attest to its “ Stopping Power”

07-Jun-24
Not that it’s not s stopper, but I had a .54 RB flatten out and carom off line through the diaphragm of a very big cow Elk, so I know that a RB doesn’t always penetrate in a straight line when it hits some bone. True, buckshot is harder than a roundball, but how willing would you be to fend off a charge with a .32 squirrel rifle, even knowing that you’d “probably” hit braincase??

I have never patterned a rifled barrel with 00 buck, but just seems to me that at ranges where you can make a credible case for a DLP shooting, the pattern might well be so tight that it wouldn’t necessarily provide the margin for error which you would be looking for….

And of course, anyone who has patterned heavy buck at close range is expressly invited to share data….

I had thought about the high-density shot angle, but I have really no idea how large you’d have to go to get penetration or how small you’d need to go to get coverage.

And again, Devil’s Advocate, the point of non-expanding bullets is that if you miss the brain, you can still shatter the pelvis, or anything else in between….

And you say you can attest to the stopping power, but on what? Not saying you don’t have good info, but you’re not sharing it much….

From: drycreek
07-Jun-24
As with anything, details are important. No matter what you are shooting, if you don’t hit the right spot, you aren’t going to stop the animal. I have killed a dozen feral hogs over 200 pounds with one shot to the high shoulder with a 115 grain Federal Fusion out of a 6.8 SPC. The biggest one weighed 270 pounds. But hogs are tough , and I have also shot a few of them on the run where I couldn’t place my shots and put two or three of those same bullets in them only to find them the next morning with my dog. They were dead, but dead ain’t stopped. I’ve never shot a hog with buckshot, but my son dumped five for five a couple years ago with 00 buck. They weren’t 200 pounders, but they weren’t 10 yards away either, more like 30. The one deer I shot exibited “knock down power” as his front end hit the ground before his rear end could catch up. A shotgun probably wouldn’t be my favorite to face down a big bear, but it would beat a pistol of any caliber or description IMO, it just wouldn’t be near as handy. I’ll never know that particular feeling, ‘cause the only griz I ever laid eyes on was in Yellowstone Park. ;-))

From: Catscratch
07-Jun-24
I've killed animals with everything from a BB gun to a 50BMG. A close range (10-15yds) 00 will leave a 2-3 inch hole. There is a reason Germany wanted shotguns outlawed for wars.

I said it earlier... you should probably have what you are comfortable with in your hands at that moment. It'd be crazy for ME to carry a rifle around for <20yd defense situation. I've spent 10's of thousands of rounds on live critters with my shotgun. In a time of importance I'm mostly likely to be able to use it without operator error or even concentration. I'm sure there are plenty of others who feel that way about handguns or rifles.

Corax, didn't you spend half the thread telling everyone they were bloodlusting/macho/ego types that were foolish for considering taking a gun to a bear fight? And trying to convince a guy who expressly wanted opinions about pistols that he should use spray? I may have missed something, why change your stance to rifles instead of spray?

07-Jun-24
No…..

Spray as first line of defense in a charge, vs Pistol (unless your name is Miculek). Way easier to hit with in a real hurry. Ask Ike.

Pistol is probably necessary if a sprayed bear returns, but gotta hope that the spray buys you a little time. Seems that sows will come after you again if they feel like they’re being pursued. I think the young guide who died a few years ago was on a kill with his client and that bear came back also.

But a long gun beats a pistol and guides/PHs carry rifles… not shotguns. Must be reasons.

From: Thornton
07-Jun-24

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Shot this one yesterday with a 7.62x39 123 gr Federal soft point in the neck. Bullet stopped on the C-spine and it tried to climb farther up the tree. Had to shoot it two more times through the lungs before it fell out 30 or 40 feet. Tough one. Didn't even know it was in the tree until it started huffing and chomping it's teeth.

From: Catscratch
07-Jun-24
I could see wanting a rifle on a second advance of a bear. I'm guessing at that point you're more prepared and not taken my surprise.

From: Beendare
08-Jun-24
Hey Corax Latrans...Have you ever seen a Grizzly or Brown bear in the wild on a hunt or fishing trip?

Just curious....

09-Jun-24
Just tracks, fortunately… though I still have a photographically sharp memory of one track on a sandbar in MT…. Wet track in dry sand will stand your hair on end… Not a lot of Grizz in CO/ SE Wyo where I have spent most of my time (west of I-25, anyway).

We do have one or more brazen camp-raiding Blacks (and a resident female cougar) in the drainage above the house, though, so I have spent a bit of time contemplating my options… And who here hasn’t daydreamed about hunting in Grizz country and pondered his personal security alternatives??

Because if you don’t think about your plan before you are facing the bear…. That’s not planning.

10-Jun-24
If you feel better with a 10mm than you do with your fists, what is the difference between a 12gauge slug, shot, and a .45-70? It's semantics as a pistol doesn't hold a candle to any of these in power or accuracy for the average guy.

As far as the spray is concerned, again, you can carry both. Most charges are bluff charges and shooting and killing a bear can ruin a hunt if you're skinning it out and reporting it to F&G - we're talking lost days and potentially ending the hunt. The last thing I want to kill on a fall hunt is a grizzly when I'm after caribou/moose/sheep/goat.

When a bear is bluff charging, the best option is spray first if there's no wind. I see no reason to only bring spray though. It's very easy to carry both. I have deployed spray down low on a sheep hunt and then had nothing. That's not how you want to end up either.

And if you're bowhunting, most of the time you're going to interact with a bear, you're not going to have a long gun handy and/or your most dangerous encounters are going to come when you dont have one handy, at least that's how it's gone for me, so the whole "this rifle/that rifle" conversation is sort of moot for bowhunters.

From: DanaC
10-Jun-24

DanaC's Link
Black bears are getting bolder, bigger and more plentiful around here. Meanwhile in California "A Bear Killed and Ate an Elderly Woman in Her Home. It’s the First Fatal Black Bear Attack in California’s History"

Bear over-population is getting worse.

From: Zbone
10-Jun-24
"anyone who has patterned heavy buck at close range is expressly invited to share data"

Back in the day I played around with buckshot a bit... Both loads were factory 3" magnum shells manufactured by Remington of 00 and #4 buckshot 3" buffered loads... There were 12 pellets in the 00 and 41 pellets in the #4 buckshot loads, and as mentioned, they were buffered loads of hard lead and fiberglass to help with deformation.... They were not soft lead like some sold in bulk these days, these were magnum factory Remington premium loads... They will crumble 20+ pound wild turkeys on the wing at 50+ yards like crumbling black birds with a dose of #8 birdshot...8^) I killed 3 big gobblers on the wing with buckshot... Back when I hunted turkeys my first round was #4 birdshot and follow-ups were #4 buckshot...

Attached photo is of the experiment gun, I called it Stumpy, it was a 12 gauge New England Firearms, model SR1 with a improved cylinder 19-3/16" barrel with end bore inside diameter of .720"...

As I mentioned above, at a dump I shot a stand up stripped out refrigerator with a dose of the #4 buckshot from about 10 paces and it knocked the thing over... This was way before ballistic gels and cell phone cameras nor did I have a camera with me to photograph the pattern, but I distinctly remember if being near perfect and around 15-18" in diameter... It was impressive as was the recoil from Stumpy...8^)

#4 Buckshot is about 20 grains (depending on the lead quality) and .24" diameter... With magnum shells traveling over 1,200 FPS is like getting hit 41 times with a high velocity .22 all at the same time, and we know that the one time world record B&C grizzly was killed by a native woman with a taped up .22 rimfire...

There is no doubt in my mind a grizzly can be stopped at 10 yards with a blast in the face of 3" mag #4 buckshot...

From: Nyati
10-Jun-24
How did this get to a discussion about rifles and shotguns?

There’s no doubt that a rifle or shotgun would be a better defense against grizzly/brown than a pistol. But it’s not practical. If you’re hunting brown bear with a bow then your guide probably has a backup rifle. If you’re elk hunting with a bow around Yellowstone during archery season it’s going to be hard to explain to game warden why you’re carrying a rifle.

Plus a pistol can be on chest or hip and out of the way. I wouldn’t want to be carrying a bow in one hand and a rifle in the other

From: Zbone
10-Jun-24

Zbone's embedded Photo
"Stumpy"
Zbone's embedded Photo
"Stumpy"
Zbone's embedded Photo
One time B&C World Record Grizzly
Zbone's embedded Photo
One time B&C World Record Grizzly
Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
Oops, forgot photos...

Nyati - As I mentioned above, threads weave...8^)

From: DanaC
10-Jun-24
Not sure about buck shot at 'close' range. Should be good.

Several years back at our club 'turkey' shoots we had buckshot rounds. Used 2&3/4 inch #4 buck, 27 pellets. Range was about 28 yards. The best shots might put ten pellets on an 8x10 inch target. And that was with tight chokes. (This is just one observation.)

From: Zbone
10-Jun-24
Dang dude, by no means is 28 yards close range for buckshot, how many pellets out of a 2-3/4" regular load on an 8" target do you want... It' ain't birdshot and if you pull the trigger of a shotgun for the first time on a grizzly at 28 yards away, am sure you are gonna be in trouble with the law... That far away, would bet you would then receive a real charge from a real pissed off griz... Personally wouldn't pull the trigger on one until they are committed within 5 yards, then I'd be shooting fast and furious....

10-Jun-24
Thanks, Ike! Appreciate the POV!

QQ, though… by how much, would you say, do your chances of a bear encounter go up once you have an animal on the ground or in camp? I’m sure it depends on where you are….

“There is no doubt in my mind a grizzly can be stopped at 10 yards with a blast in the face of 3" mag #4 buckshot...”

“CAN” being the operative term ;)

“a dose of the #4 buckshot from about 10 paces and… I distinctly remember [the pattern] being near perfect and around 15-18" in diameter... “

Devil’s advocate again, so all those who don’t care or don’t think this is worth their time are cordially invited to prove it by scrolling on past or hitting the back button…

I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be anywhere close to the line of fire for that load/gun, but let’s say it’s a beautiful, 16” pattern. That’s a hair over 200 sq inches. With “perfectly” uniform distribution, call it 1 pellet per 5 sq in. If the vital brain area of said grizzly is a 4” circle (12 sq in), then the math comes out not at 41 hits, but 2.5. All of those other pellets are probably going to hit the bear (assuming a good aim) and those that do are going to hurt… but they’re unlikely to kill or incapacitate, let alone immediately.

Still like your odds??

And you said that was with an IC choke; so an open choke would be wider… and a rifled barrel wider still….

And not-for-nothin’, but do I see a half dozen (or more) closely packed .22 bullet holes in that grizzly skull?

From: DanaC
10-Jun-24
Zbone, I'm *not* recommending this shot size - or distance - for bear defense, just noting a pattern for load X at distance Y.

At 5 yards I think I'd want 000 and 'cylinder'. (But I haven't tested this on paper.)

Did see my first bear of the year this morning, maybe 225-250 pounds.

From: Zbone
10-Jun-24
Actually Stumpy is chokeless, the barrel was reduced to 19-3/16" so it didn't have any kind of constriction, but I mic'd it and on my Lyman calipers measures .720" inside diameter which is improved cylinder... It shoots buckshot extremely well...

Again, I wouldn't shoot at grizzly until within 5 yards and probably wouldn't even aim, likely only point it at the face... If one of those 41 pellets doesn't strike the brain it's still gonna bust jaw bones and teeth... It a direct hit through the nose at 3 or 4 yards, the whole skull would be mush...

If ya haven't shot a 3" Remington buffered #4 buckshot, give it a try, I think they still make them... They are impressive...

From: Nyati
10-Jun-24
Everyone just remember that under controlled situations people miss a gobbler completely at 10 yards with #9 TSS . A pissed off grizzly running at you at 10 yds is not a controlled situation

From: Zbone
10-Jun-24
Yeah Nyati, I agree and why I'd want a autoloading shotgun, the more shells the better the odds...8^)

The whole pump gun is as fast as an autoloader is pure myth... While shooting IPSC shotgun match I shot 3 plate target staggered at 9, 12, and 15 yards, and all 3 hits in 1.23 seconds from an 1100... Now that was with soft low recoil loads, but can still be done fast with those jaw breaker buckshot loads.... BTW, those IPSC shoots with an audience are high pressure, the adrenalin is flowing...

10-Jun-24
“Everyone just remember that under controlled situations people miss a gobbler completely at 10 yards with #9 TSS .”

Not to ignore the difference between stationary and moving targets, but isn’t that usually with an XXFull choke? Worlds apart, WRT group size, no?

You know, it’s a funny thing, but maybe it’s a good thing to have a choke which limits your effectiveness to ranges where you wouldn’t have such a hard time explaining the decision to use Lethal force…. In Dana’s story about the predatory bear, I came across a link to a piece about a guy in Canada who opened up on a bear at considerably longer range “because he was afraid”… The judge agreed that most people are (justifiably) intimidated by a bear, but did not agree that shooting was warranted… so that guy is having some legal issues….

Which brings us back to Ike’s point about not being eager to deal with a dead bear when you can avoid it….

From: Shaft2Long
11-Jun-24
I am no expert at all on guns. Don’t shoot guns all that often. That’s the disclaimer. I recently bought the 4.5” Springfield XDM Elite 10mm and it was accurate right out if the box for at 10 yards. I’ll stretch it out farther next time I go.

From: Supernaut
11-Jun-24

Supernaut's embedded Photo
Supernaut's embedded Photo
I posted this over on the June funnies thread but thought it would fit nicely here as well.

11-Jun-24

Corax_latrans's embedded Photo
Corax_latrans's embedded Photo
44 ounce bottle to the top of the head. One oughtta do it.

Can’t argue with numbers like those!

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