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We like to talk here about sidearms while bowhunting, and there was a story earlier this spring about a fatal cougar attack on 2 brothers while shed hunting in which one lost his life...

In this article a shed hunter had to deal with a family of cougars, fortunately he carried a Springfield XD in .40 S&W:

https://www.outdoorlife.com/survival/shed-hunter-stalked-by-mountain-lions/

Anyhow, the first shot through the chrono registered 229 fps... I'm like that can't be right... Next shot was in the 230s and so on... I was shocked at all the more speed I was getting... Shot probably around 20 rounds through the chrono and the fastest was 243 fps and the slowest registered 226 fps... Most ran between between 230 - 240 fps averaging 235 fps... It was disheartening, I thought they'd do much better than that, maybe around 600 fps or so but it didn't happen with that ammo... I'd seen a video of a guy killing a black bear with a .380 and I know humans have been killed by them... When a chance, I have a few other flavors of .380 ammo including Underwood's .380 +P 100GR, so I'm curious what they'll do, but boy I hope I never have to use that little thing in any kind of self defense, man or beast... If I'm packing a sidearm for a wilderness outing, it's gonna be at least a 9MM...

226=741.47, 230=754.593, 235=770.997, 243=797.244

Those numbers sound about right... Dang, I feel better...8^)

Thanks guys!!!

I’m guessing you were in the wrong mode. Not that I’ve ever done anything like that…. Like tipping a barber a whole dollar because I didn’t have my cheaters with me…. LOL

I carry everything from .380 to 9mm to (Taurus Judge) in .45 colt/.410 depending on the situation………………………today’s modern ammo and particularly the self defense rounds are MUCH better NOW than they were years ago! I don’t hesitate to carry my .380 when I need an ultra-light concealable weapon!

Thanks Starfire... I'm gonna check mine again too...

Thanks guys, I think youenz are right, I must of had chrono on wrong setting...

The odd thing is that I’ve never heard of cougars operating as a “family unit”, and April seems like an odd time of year for breeding for an animal that size.

Also odd that there was no mention of a collar on the “male” initially… and kinda surprising to me that a cat that has been collared would not be REALLY human-avoidant… I’d think he’d want nothing at all to do with us 2-leggers… I guess maybe yelling and bluff-charging might pique a big male’s curiosity/territorial instincts??

The youngsters… maybe they’re just unpredictable, but if there was no blood on the snow, I’m guessing there were no hits. I think the cat probably tripped himself trying to slam on the brakes….

Most likely, it’s too much time on the internet. The algorithms know that you’re interested, so they will surface as many stories like that as they can find. The same thing happens with ridiculous news reports, especially pertaining to political issues, because people react so strongly.

That’s why we have the guys here who can’t stop posting political threads because they think the whole world has gone crazy, when, in fact, it’s just that they can’t get enough of these stories, and the Internet is more than happy to oblige. So their world view is completely warped, and they just get more and more afraid every day.

Now… Logically, especially in states like California, where everything is protected, we have rapidly increasing populations of predators, and that is bound to cause conflicts; similar situations with CT/NJ bears, Yellowstone Region grizzlies and so on. We also have vastly increased numbers of people outside ever since the lockdown, so the probability of encounters has gone way up. So yes, there is a kernel of truth, but it’s getting blown out of proportion…. because there is money to be made in doing that. Meanwhile, people who aren’t concerned about being mauled by wildlife (because they live where there really isn’t any) are going to remain blissfully ignorant of the facts of the situation… because they are busy being served reports of much scarier things like Conservatives (or Liberals, or Transsexuals or illegal immigrants, depending on what topics grab their attention.)

It’s a machine. Not a POLITICAL machine, mind you… It’s a MONEY machine, and it is designed to have the same effect on every individual user… whether the reports are, true, false, wildly biased, or as accurate as humanly possible.

And yet probably 90% of the population thinks that only the people who disagree with them are swayed by it….

I covered many miles in my upcoming elk unit this last week and the best solo camp spot I found has Bear scat every 30 feet- they are living in there. I WILL be bringing my pistol with hard cast.

+1. Personally I think the .380 gets a bad rap and agree the ammo these days makes all the difference. Just like a few others here, I also carry a .380 in the summertime when wearing less clothing and feel that it can and will do the job if necessary.

I think it's because of my military time, and 33 years in law enforcement, carrying.

At my Dept. We were required to carry off duty, SOPs.

I think that's why I don't much anymore. BUT when I do carry 1911 45, 7 shot mag. Gun saved my life and was lucky to be awarded it, to retain it. Goes to my grandson

Had read cougar kittens can be born any month of the year... There is a term for it but forget what it's called...

Groundhunter - "At my Dept. We were required to carry off duty, SOPs"

What is a "SOP"?

https://www.deschutesswcd.org/files/4201499e0/Cougar-facts-single-page.pdf

Thanks

It’s not like you see them going out of their way to attack skunks or porcupines because they had a run-in with one on some prior occasion…

Terry

Yeah, I agree....

Don't know how true it was but read a story about a Siberian Tiger waiting in ambush for revenge just outside the cabin of a hunter/trapper...

My buddy snores like crazy- which usually bugs me a little but probably kept one of those lions from pouncing on the tent. grin

I think things have changed a lot with predators in the woods in my 40+ years of backpack hunting. I never used to carry a pistol- even my first couple trips to Kodiak.

Now, there are a lot more problem animals. lions aren't as afraid of humans- I've had encounters and they don't just run off- instead hunkering down and watching me and other buddies. One snuck in to 15' on a buddy calling elk in Co.

The wildlife folks relocate many of these problem bears instead of euthanizing. That puts more of these problem bears in contact with us hunters. plus no hunt season on lions in CA, no spring bear season. Ask around in Tahoe- much more problems with bears....same in other states.

Point is, this ain't the old days....from what I've seen, things have changed.

Then add, I like having a noise maker in case of an emergency- though I doubt many of the young guys know what 3 quick shots in succession even means. Grin

“Outside a remote village in Russia’s Far East a man-eating tiger is on the prowl. The tiger isn’t just killing people, it’s murdering them, almost as if it has a vendetta. A team of trackers is dispatched to hunt down the tiger before it strikes again. They know the creature is cunning, injured, and starving, making it even more dangerous. As John Vaillant re-creates these extraordinary events, he gives us an unforgettable and masterful work of narrative nonfiction that combines a riveting portrait of a stark and mysterious region of the world and its people, with the natural history of nature’s most deadly predator.”

Key Sentence being “They know the creature is cunning, injured, and starving…”

Call me crazy, but I can’t think of any substantial prey item easier for a big cat to chase down and subdue than a human. Even domestic sheep are faster, and they are often protected by large, angry dogs….

So it should be a good story and I think I’ll read it, but there’s certainly a possibility that the author may have read too much into it….

I guess they are going to make a movie about it...

“I think things have changed a lot with predators in the woods in my 40+ years of backpack hunting. ”

I can’t imagine otherwise! I don’t know of any region (with the possible exception for Florida) where increasing protection hasn’t led to greater numbers of predators, which are having more and more encounters with humans, and fewer and fewer of those encounters end up being distinctly unpleasant for the predators. I’d think that 40 years ago, the predators were mostly just a few generations removed from animals that had survived bounty hunting and a shoot-on-sight attitude among sportsmen, so while the supposed “natural fear of humans” is a crock, the predators back then had good reason to to fear us and ample opportunity to learn to leave us alone.

And just look at places like CO, where the numbers of bowhunters have blown through the roof and lions are learning that Elk noises and people are a common combination… In other places they’re being called in by turkey hunters and probably guys grunting at whitetails as well, and no harm cones to them. The cat that got within 15 feet of your friend escaped with what, a good tongue-lashing? (given the opportunity, I would’ve at least hit it with the pepper spray).

So yes, changes in wildlife management and human attitudes are teaching Apex Predators that we’re mostly harmless. Relocating a problem is not Solving any problems.

"‘The Tiger’: Myroslav Slaboshpytskyi To Direct Alexander Skarsgard & Dane DeHaan In Feature Take Of John Vaillant Book – Cannes"

https://deadline.com/2022/05/alexander-skarsgard-dane-dehaan-the-tiger-1235023558/

I like that Skarsgard actor, kinda would like to see it if it's going to happen...

Here in Ca, there has been a moratorium on killing lions for over 30 years. The absolute farcical idea one can manage an eco system while letting a top of the food chain predator run amok is ridiculous. It's not science- it's catering to the loud anti hunting crowd and it has caused a lot of problems for the public, ranchers and the F&G.

The F&G is trying to keep the Mountain lion problem under wraps. I don't want to get anyone in trouble but I know of 2 areas where they took over 30 lions out of one above Vacaville ...and almost 30 out of another over near Sonora. The F&G is having dog guys get these lions- but they are under mandate NOT to tell anyone.

The claim is lion population is self limiting and they will fight other lions in their territory. Back when I was doing hog depredation, My dogs found one case of this- a dead lion on a State park looked to be killed by another lion.

But, how can it be they took 30 lions from a 50 square mile area? There must be more overlap than they think. We have them on trail cam coming right down into residential areas near where I live.

That’s absurd. All predator populations are FOOD-limited, and the females won’t fight for any more territory than they need to feed themselves and their cubs. I suppose Toms will attempt to control as large an area as possible so as to maximize their breeding opportunities….

There may be a population density “limit” (based on prey density), but that just means more young lions getting pushed out into whatever available territories they can find. Like the residential area where you live….

Hmmmm….. Let’s see… There’s no deer hunting allowed in the suburbs, so the deer population is oversized… and we have a growing population of predators which are dispersing and seeking out territories with abundant deer to eat. What could possibly go wrong??

"72-Year-Old Montana Man Shoots Grizzly That Attacked Him While He Was Picking Berries

The man, who was injured, was able to pull his sidearm and kill the sow.

A man who was picking huckleberries on Flathead National Forest land Thursday evening was charged and attacked by a grizzly sow. The 72-year-old, whose identity has not yet been made public, shot and killed the bear with his handgun, according to a statement from Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks on Friday."

https://www.outdoorlife.com/survival/grizzly-attacks-berry-picker/?utm_term=ODL%20-%20072224&utm_campaign=Outdoor%20Life_Newsletter_Actives&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email

Whomever coined the phrase “shooting is a perishable skill” is dead on. I have not shot that pistol in a while. I have not cleaned it in a while either and it’s got dust and dirt and junk from driving around on the back of my quad, etc..

I had some FTFs with it and hard cast ammo, it wasn’t going into battery…where my G19 ran like a top- of course it did.

Plus, I decided to skip my shooting glasses and shoot as I would in a defensive encounter- quick draw from holster, no enhanced glasses, slippery palms and sweat rolling down into my eyes from 100deg heat.

The whole thing was an eye opener. I shoot way better with my verifyer shooting glasses. It took me a solid 100 rds to get my sight picture back and split times up and clicking.

All of the above only reinforces what most of us already know- there is no substitute for function checking and actual real world practice.

.

Right you are, but the statistics they cited (like Beendare’s post just above) make for a pretty compelling argument that if you don’t ordinarily carry, and you don’t shoot in meaningful volume on a regular basis, your chances are better with the pepper spray.

Plus, nobody gets put through the ringer in a Use Of Spray investigation….

Beendare - "Whomever coined the phrase “shooting is a perishable skill” is dead on"...

Yeah, I totally agree... As a younger man I shot all the time, plinking, practicing competition, reloaded, had a Dillon progressive press, etc., and considered myself a decent shot but haven't shot a lot the past few years, mainly because ammo prices and availability... I'd sold my Dillon and MEC shotgun presses years ago.. Actually lent my MEC out to a friend and never got it back...8^((( Anyhow went a day with a buddy shooting last summer and like you the day was extremely hot, humid muggy, with sweat rolling off me including down in my eyes, etc... We were shooting .40 S&W and 9MMs pistols with open sights and I embarrassed myself, I couldn't hit anything... I was kinda shocked my eyes had gotten that bad in that short amount of time...

Well, since I've been shooting a little and learned I need my reading glasses to be accurate and also learned that while shooting pool... Anyhow you either use those skills or loose them...

Ya have to keep at it to stay proficient...

Just want to be sure what you’re saying…. ;)

Good advice in that article a out spraying DOWNWARD, though…. Makes me wonder what % of Spray “failures” are the result of people spraying “at” the bear when it’s farther out, and the bear just comes in underneath the whole cloud…. Gotta be at least some.

BTW, I've since mounted Streamlight TLR-6 Gun Light and Red Laser on them...8^)))

Yeah, I didn't expect Jerry Mickluk type shooting but I was sorely disappointed. I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong...or out of practice....heck, it might spur others on to get out there and burn some ammo.

The real eye opener for me was the FTF with my Shield. It seems I may have overestimated its functionality. I am cleaning it today and will give it another shot- it's chambering the HC now.

I have one big dot on a G19 that might be the solution to my deteriorating eyesight. It's crazy the difference when your eyesight starts to go- shooting glasses vs none. A guy can overcome it with reps......I plan on a couple more runs at my steel plates before I go hunting.

My G20 is always an option but heavier. I have hundreds of rounds of 2 types of HC ammo through that- it's perfect. My G19 and G17 also run like a top with HC...

BUT though I am used to the scrunchy triggers on my Glocks I have one with an Apex trigger kit and it is crisp and clean compared to my stock Glock triggers. ....so I just ordered 2 more Apex Kits for the Glocks I shoot the most.

"I have one big dot on a G19 that might be the solution to my deteriorating eyesight"

Yeah, I'm thinking about going that way with a G48 (it's the slim series)... It has the 3-dot tritium night sights and I couldn't pick up those glass dots in the sun that day with my deteriorating eyesight and the sweat and no glasses... (good excuse, right?...8^))

Back in my ISPC days, we used a flat black dull spray on the all black blades to deter sun glare on Bomar sights on custom 1911s... All black sights shows good against those cardboard targets and white plates... That day we were shooting small greyish colored steel plates and cans but couldn't pick up those glass looking dots... We were shooting probably around 20 yards or so...

Right now I'm building a G43 upper for a G48 converting it to a 43X (3/4" shorter slide)... I have the slide and barrel is on order but waiting on Brownells backorder for the upper parts kit... Sooo, I'm gonna need sights for it and thinking about black rear sight and the big dot front sight like you, or 3-dot fiber optic sights... My eyes pick up those fiber optic sights well... So I have a decision to make in the near future...

Actually I just put a Streamlight TLR-6 Gun Light and Red Laser on the frame last night, I really like them...

Regardless Corax_latrans, I can still point and tattoo "mother" at 5 paces without aiming,,, and that is without the laser...8^)

Recently watched a show called "I was Prey" where a timber company dropped 2 guys off from a chopper in the Canadian wilderness to do tree surveys and the only weapon they had was bear spray... Anyhow a grizzly charged them and one made it up a tree the other did not... The unlucky one was severely mauled because he couldn't get the safety off his bear spray trigger... This guy took a really sever mauling to the point the grizz actually covered him with debris and defecated on him... Long story short, the guy was scalped but did survive with scars to tell is tale...

I’ve said it before but my bet…most guys that carry the spray have never actually test fired a can.

I think…..Even with poor eyesight (needing reading glasses) a guy can develop muscle memory through training that gets us accurate shooting inside 10y.

Personally, I know I can do it with many reps…but to do it best I have to stick with one platform and the same grip angle to get that consistent sight picture.

I’m limited to what I can get here in Dem run California due to the Roster- and that sucks being a lefty as the Gen 3 Glocks we are limited to are RH controls.

If any LEO’s in Ca want to throw me a bone and sell me a Gen 5 private party through an FFL, it would be appreciated.

..

I have some Buffalo bore 9mm +P 147g Outdoorsman Hard cast cartridges. They appear to not have an lube on them- for sure not the red lube on some of the other 10mm I've used. They feed fine in my Stock Glocks. They MOSTLY feed in my Shield...but they are inconsistent and a couple times they fail to go completely into battery both when shooting and manually letting the slide go.

I cleaned the Shield as there was a lot of built up dust- same thing- manually running the ammo in the pistol some of the bullets will hold the slide back about 1/16" from battery.

I'm thinking I could hit those with a dry lube and make it work...but I will never trust it in a critical situation. All of the semi jacketed stuff is 100% in the Shield over about 600 rds. For some reason it just doesn't like that Buff Bore stuff.

It seems I'm back to a Glock19 for a bear defense gun.

FWIW, my stock G20, 10mm has over 750 rounds of 200g Double Tap and Underwood 200g hard cast through it and it has never had one failure. The older ammo has very little lube...but the newer stuff has a red cast to it from lube.

Glad I checked that Shield.

Yeah Beendare, I been thinking about getting some after reading about the master Alaskan guide killing a brown bear with them: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=389

Would like to see how they run after I get a G48/43X slide built...

I have similar by Underwood pictured I've had for a while, too expensive to shoot but will if ever heading for grizz country... The hollow points are for home defense...

Your first reaction upon hearing something or catching even a glimpse of something, should be reaching for your gun or spray, before taking time trying to figure out what you heard or saw.

Going down a trail through thick trees in the evening last year, I was scanning to the sides and a friend stepped up and whispered he had seen something up ahead, that maybe it was a cow, but he wasn’t sure. I pulled my pistol and was already aiming when the huge griz came up out of a low spot. He was close, but I was ready, as was Tom behind me and Randy behind him. I almost re-holstered to get my phone out and take a photo. He was gorgeous! He was a good bear and after a short stand off, wandered off into the woods.

Point is we didn’t wait to verify what only one of us had caught a glimpse of. We were ready. Most times you don’t have the luxury of that much time.

Zbone, those are the same rounds that 1 of 5 won’t feed in my Shield…my Glocks feed them fine.

I should mic the chambers in each the Shield and Glock to see if thats it…or mic the bullets to see if its inconsistent manufacture.

Glock’s have slightly larger chambers - by design- and I know that was the issue with some modded G20’s that had aftermarket barrels with tighter chambers that weren’t feeding.

FWIW, my older Underwood 200g HC of 4-5 yrs ago doesn’t have the Cherry coating lube the new stuff has on it.

If I could find the underwood extreme penetrator in both 9mm and 10mm I would be tempted to use that.