Sight Lights and P&Y
Equipment
P&Y has decided to let members decide if sight lights should be allowed on bows.
I guess the question is does a sight light allow for a higher percentage of ethical kills during low but legal light?
Or does it encourage taking shots you probably shouldn’t?
Legal shooting times are legal shooting times. You end or start your hunt when it’s time. A light has zero bearing on “extending” your time to shoot an animal.
I just voted against legalizing them. I never needed them for legal shooting hours where I've hunted. And if you need a light to see the pins how the heck can you see the arrow impact location?
I voted for it. Many hunters have them on their bows in case they need it but they rarely use it, but all of their kills are ineligible. They won’t take it off, they’ll just ignore Pope and Young, which isn’t what we want.
I’ll use mine in a ground blind situation. You want the blind dark inside but it’s very tough, if not impossible to see your pin well before the end of legal light, especially in dark spruce trees. It’s half an hour after sunset here in Alberta.
In the last hour of light I’ve had bear hunters with no light, drawing their bow back, putting the pin against the sky, dropping it into the bears black body and letting it rip. Unethical I know but they want their Pope and Young entry.
Voted for it. Dusk & dawn are not the only application for a sight light. In my experience, shooting out of a dark blind at mid-day into a bright background can make it tough to see pins.
The rule won't change any state's regulations, it will just bring members into compliance with P&Y fair chase guidelines in states & provinces where the sights are perfectly legal.
Anything to make hunting easier is generally a go.
What Mike said. The number of entries with sight lights mounted (used or unused in the harvest) is WAY higher than most guys are guessing I bet. Yes, you sign an affidavit, but don’t kid yourself plenty of guys sign that and move on with life.
Several years ago I was at a P&Y banquet, yes, literally THE awards banquet and one of the trophy pics for an award had a camera mounted on the stabilizer. I was like WTF!?!?!
I’m for it, don’t personally see a problem. But I’m just one vote, let the members decide.
—Jim
The only time a sight light will work for me is when I am in a dark blind. If it is low light and I can't see my pins well and I also can't see what I'm shooting at well it is just too dark to shoot.
That's gonna be a yes for me dawg!
For it. As mentioned, hunting from a blind.
"And if you need a light to see the pins how the heck can you see the arrow impact location?"
Lighted nock? :-)
I voted for it. Legal shooting time in most states is just that: legal shooting time.
Pete
Cameras are not against the current rules Jim.
The only reason I hesitate to vote yes is that I can’t really make a strong argument against red dot scopes and other electronics like that if the site light is allowed. Seems like it’s currently an easy line in the sand to enforce. It’s either a recording camera or it’s not allowed as far as electronics go. Diving into specifics on lights and sites just makes this become a never ending discussion IMO. But I also don’t feel strongly enough to really care either way.
Being of the elderly at 63 with fading eyesight, my sight light helps in low light conditions, not outside the legal hours.
They definitely help when you’re hunting from a blind. As eyes get older I could see an advantage too. But like Trevor mentioned, once you open the gates where does it stop?
^^ Folks have been asking that question since Allen invented the compound, heck, probably since Easton introduced aluminum arrows. Plus ça change...
A “yes” for me. Agree with Mike’s and others assessment, but I could see where things could get a little cloudy, as well.
Makes sense to me. This won't change someone's mind on whether the decide to shoot after legal or not.
yes for me also. I used to be able to use .010 pins...now I can't even see them! HAHA. Old age is a bastard. I also agree with the usage in a blind-blinds are much more prevalent now than they used to be.
Devil’s Advocate — maybe all the boys in my Fan Club will want to sit this one out….
First off, let’s be real clear that this is not a Legal question (although states may follow P& Y’s lead); this is asking whether the technology is disqualifying for someone seeking to be honored with an entry in The Book….
That said….
I’m pretty sure that legal hours — like most laws — exist mainly for the purpose of prosecuting egregious Violations of generally accepted “sporting” standards. Yes, of course there’s a safety issue (which I will revisit), but basically, Common Sense will tell you when you have enough light to shoot accurately and safely, and that’s when it’s time to concede the day. But putting a hard stop at 1/2 past sundown allows a CO to write a jacklighter a ticket which will Stick if said CO hears a gunshot after dusk — without having to prove in court that there was an artificial light source involved.
But the thing is…. if you consider the understanding of what “Bowhunting” looked like when the laws (and P&Y standards) were being laid down….. No sights at all, or just brass pins or similar… I’d wager that everyone understood that it’s not unusual for it to be too dark to shoot (by common sense standards) before Legal Hours were over. And people were OK with that from a Fair Chase standpoint (and doubtless because those were the rules in place for firearms already). Point is, it doesn’t matter what your watch says — too dark is too dark. Game Over.
So what fiber optic pins do is basically give a Hunter superhuman low-light vision, and illuminated sights take that to a whole different level, the same as a telescopic sight does.
So since the issue is genuinely a philosophical line in the sand, the philosophical question for state-level regulators (IMO) should be “are hunters PERMITTED to shoot right up to the end of Legal Hours , or are they ENTITLED to use whatever artificial measures they feel are “necessary” in order to be able to take the shots that they want to take right up until the last Legal second?? Then for P&Y’s purposes, they need to decide if they are comfortable conforming their own standards to the lowest legal standards of the most permissive (dare I say “liberal”??) states, even when there are still other states not willing to go there.
I understand the “getting older” thing — I feel like I’m pretty new at it, but hoping to be allowed to study it for at least a few more decades — but….How do I put this gently…..??
Tough
$#!+.
Do you wanna play basketball against me where I get an 8-foot high hoop, because I’m only 80% as tall as an average NBA player? Because a lighted sight for “I can’t see as well as I used to” is really no different than me whining about basketball being “rigged” to favor taller athletes. Or in bowhunting terms, is a lighted sight any different than a crossbow for someone complaining that “I’m not as strong as I used to be.”
And way back up to the Safety concerns… If you can’t see your sights or your target well enough to shoot accurately, can you honestly claim “but I can still shoot SAFELY..”? Call me crazy, but that ice is getting thin….
Then as for shooting from a dark, enclosed blind…. Well, people CHOOSE to use one because it provides them with some advantages, right? So does it naturally follow that there should be some trade-offs — call them “disadvantages if you will — or are we somehow (again) entitled to cash in on every possible new, added advantage without ever having to compromise in any way?
Because if you stop to think about what Fair Chase is all about, the idea is that it comes down to giving the animals every reasonable opportunity to escape— NOT giving us hunters every possible advantage to take them, no matter what… And the P&Y club SUPPOSEDLY arose to honor a couple of guys who RAISED THE BAR on Fair Chase by deliberately handicapping themselves to the greatest extent that was really practical.
So if I were a P&Y member, I’d be voting No on allowing the lighted sights. People are of course free to use them (where legal) if they wish, but if you look at a P&Y entry as recognition of having taken Fair Chase to some kind of Next Level, the lighted sights are (IMO) wildly inconsistent with the founding principles of the whole thing.
And the problem with leaving it up to a vote by the membership…. The people who belong to The Club are people who want their names in The Book. You can’t expect many of them to voluntarily roll back the technology that they’re already using to get themselves there.
So really, it’s like a Constitutional Question — should the standards be upheld, consistent with the goals and ideals of the founders, or should the club cave in to majority rule, even if there’s clearly a lowering of standards?
Are those rangefinder sights legal yet for that club to allow a guy to get his name printed.
I need readers to see at close range but do not shoot with them as with then I cannot see the target. I see the arrow well enough so I voted yes
Another Yes vote. Pretty much a necessity when shooting from a blind.
I understand that many general members received this potential bylaws change (email) inadvertently. That was a mistake. While their input may be interesting to review and process, only Regular and Senior members of the Club are allowed to vote on potential bylaw changes. As such, only their votes will be considered in this matter. Sorry for the confusion.
Saying yes is just keeping up with the times so Pope and Young doesn’t become even more irrelevant. It mainly affects older bowhunters that need a lighted sight in a ground blind or very occasionally outside of a ground blind. And Pope and Young is mainly made up of old guys like me who just want to use one during legal hours, enter my animal and support the association.
I’ve also found that the young hunters, under 40 yrs old, don’t need a lighted sight, sometimes their fiber optics are too bright already and they tape over the light gathering part. So this isn’t some latest, greatest technological advantage for them, they’re the ones who could probably care less one way or the other.
I have zero interest in entering anything in P&Y. Most of the time I have a sight light on my bow sight. In 46 years of bowhunting, I can’t ever recall killing an animal with that sight light “on.” I’ve been in blinds where had an animal approached, I would need to use the light to see my pin, in legal shooting time. I’m an advocate of them being legal. Whether P&Y allows is not a concern of mine.
Voted for. There’s been many times it was legal light, could see the animal but pins were nowhere to be found.
I have been informed I was mistaken on the bow mounted camera, my bad. I thought it was “no bow mounted electronics” guess I was wrong.
Seems one foot is already on the slippery slope.
—Jim
It has added about 10 to15 minutes of shooting time to my hunts. Age and cataracts took away a fair amount of light gathering ability. After cataract surgery my vision is like a hawk but I still couldnt make a pin out thru a 1/4 inch peep 30 minutes before the end of legal shooting time. The black gold lite on low will give me about 10 more minutes of hunting. My peep may soon be gone too.
So P&Y should once again sell out on high tech so more bowhunters can get their certificate and they can sell more memberships. Sad. Do they stand for anything these days. I thought fiber optic pins were developed for shooting in low light. Guess that is not good enough.
I went back and forth on this because I was against lighted nocks as being one more step into the technology morass.
This time I voted "yes" because I, too, have experienced loss of my pin in a dark blind way before end of legal shooting light. My bowhunting abilities are still solid, but my night vision is not what it once was.
Yes, Ollie, I WANT P&Y to sell more memberships and raise more money for all the great things they do. I want them to have 100,000 members. Maybe you would be happier sticking with Comptons, where they give extra points to the animal's score if the hunter wore a fedora, a checkered flannel shirt, leather underpants, shot it with a longbow vs. a recurve, etc...
Tough question…. Am concerned that we continue to go down that slippery slope of having so much technological advantages that bowhunting is no longer very challenging. Bowhunting is supposed to be hard. Having said that, I can’t count the number of times that I sat in a blind and could no longer see my pins when it was still legal to shoot. I would support it.
Ollie how is pope and young selling out by allowing their voting membership make the decision?
You’re pretty clueless eh?
Don't own a lighted sight myself...but voted yes. Totally agree that a lighted sight would benefit bowhunters hunting from blinds.
No reason to worry about advancements in technology making compounds too easy. It won’t be long before compounds will be so much the minority that P&Y will be giving out free Garmin sights with a membership. The crossbow is going to be the choice for the next crop of “bowhunters.”
“The crossbow is going to be the choice for the next crop of ‘bowhunters.’”
So you’re assuming that P&Y has zero Moral Authority with which to Lead the way? I wish they would. They’re not a For-Profit enterprise, are they?
So should they Sell Out to Popular Opinion (democracy in action, for you Political types), or should they Man Up and abide by the principles under which the organization was conceived?
Where does the “I’ve been in a blind and couldn’t really see my pins without a sight light, so I’m for allowing sight lights” argument end and the “I was in an exposed position and couldn’t use my rangefinder, so I’m for allowing electronic rangefinding and ballistic drop compensating sights” argument begin?
It’s a never ending argument if the prerequisite for equipment being valid for P&Y entry is “in X situation, Y accessory on my bow makes things easier”. I voted no.
Even if they do "abide by the principles under which the organization was conceived" market forces will make them less and less relevant. A lot of hunters are embracing crossbows and electronic sights and rangefinders, etc. etc. etc. and if Pope & Young doesn't acknowledge them, they will find themselves on a lonely soapbox. There *are* 'other' scoring/listing organizations and people nowadays will just shop until they find the one that fits.
Put it this way, are you more worried about killing a 'dream' buck or having it listed in P&Y? I'd bet more hunters choose the former.
“ They may be relevant to a lot of hunters here in the States and CA, but I just find them to be irrelevant for my hunting.”
Except they promote bowhunting and protect your right to bowhunt. I don’t see that as irrelevant.
If the thunder don’t get you, the lightening will.
Enjoy yourself, it’s later than you think.
"Except they promote bowhunting and protect your right to bowhunt. I don’t see that as irrelevant."
Exactly! Whether a bowhunter enters animals in P&Y records or not, all bowhunters should support the P&Y Club for those two reasons. Recently, P&Y modified their Regular (voting) member requirements and now any bowhunter can become a Regular (voting) member without having a single animal listed in P&Y Records. That door is now open for those bowhunters that wish to help promote and protect bowhunting, but don't have the desire to enter animals in the records program.
Can't say I'm a fan of everything that happens within the NRA either...but I'm still a member. Promote and protect...absolutely!
@pav. You are spot on with that statement.
@ mr poindexter. Those next NA 29 you stated that you are starting to pursue absolutely makes the P&Y club relevant. So you dont enter your animals because of a choice of equipment, but you could still support the only bowhunting only organization.
I voted for it. If it helps a hunter to make a more ethical shot, why not? My eyes are starting to need help, not necessarily with a lighted bowsight, but it may help others, and someday I may need the light myself.
If sighting determines ethical shots, where legal, the most ethical archery season shot is best accomplished with a crossbow and scope.
The voting link didn't work for me. Enough gizmos out there, I am leaning against its approval.
Corax if you say that sometimes it is dark before dark you are correct. But many times it is still light after legal time as well. In Canada here once the snow falls if I hunt close to city limits I could bowhunt all night WITHOUT the aid of lighted pins and have no issues shooting whatsoever. Full moon - even more so. So the reality is, we are hunting up until a man-made time stamp, not a certain amount of ambient light.
I killed my first male elk (spiker) with a lighted pin. Honestly would have been iffy without it. Could see his body no problem at 10 yards. 20 minutes earlier had a giant bull at 15 yards that I could not see well, did not shoot, and was also before legal time. Aced the shot thanks to the lighted pin. No regrets.
“So you don't enter your animals because of a choice of equipment, but you could still support the only bowhunting only organization.”
I realize that my choices in equipment (functional equivalents of what Pope & Young actually used) relegate me to some kind of fringe minority, but I’d be a lot more inclined to support them if they would take a principled stand, rather than continually dumbing down the standards.
“Recently, P&Y modified their Regular (voting) member requirements and now any bowhunter can become a Regular (voting) member without having a single animal listed in P&Y Records. That door is now open for those bowhunters that wish to help promote and protect bowhunting, but don't have the desire to enter animals in the records program.”
It ALSO opens the floodgates for the people who are book-entry wannabes to lower the requirements for entry… so they’re basically voting themselves in.
Pretty frickin’ hilarious that on a website with so many “conservatives”, there’s such an appetite for liberalization of the rules. Sounds like people here are ALL IN on DEI, as long as it increases their chances for public recognition…
Kinda sad to see P&Y edging closer to the Participation Award mentality, but if people will drop out in protest when the schoolbus isn’t quite short enough….
Jaquomo I Really like Comptons scoring! Esp the extra points for how you achieved it. I think that is part of it. And I think deductions are lunacy.. And I didn;t get any extra points for my leather undies when I submitted to Comptons! Are you exaggerating just a little?
Corax, I asked you some questions on the Regerative Farming thread. Guessing you just never checked back after posting. I'd love to hear what you have to say in regards to those questions.
“Recently, P&Y modified their Regular (voting) member requirements and now any bowhunter can become a Regular (voting) member without having a single animal listed in P&Y Records. That door is now open for those bowhunters that wish to help promote and protect bowhunting, but don't have the desire to enter animals in the records program.”
"It ALSO opens the floodgates for the people who are book-entry wannabes to lower the requirements for entry… so they’re basically voting themselves in."
I actually voted against the new Regular membership requirements...but it had nothing to do with your response. That's pretty far fetched actually...as records entry requirements remain more likely to raise than lower...if/when they change at all.
As the hunting population ages I think most of the "against votes" will reconsider. I hate gadgets on a bow but at 69 I still want to hunt as long as I did when I was 40.
Never liked the extra score for equipment. Mostly shot stuff with a recurve but didn’t feel at a disadvantage thru most of my life. Just voted for sight lights being legal.
The entire concept of needing something "electrical" on a bow is just ridiculous, for any reason.
Most guys I know sit until they cannot see their pin any longer. This will help them.
Where can I get a pair of leather underwear?
Senior member, Kodiak level member of Fred Bear Society. Was not given the opportunity to vote on it. Maybe still coming in the mail? Last election my ballot got to me two days after the election so par for the course I guess.
Bob check your junk mail. I didn’t get mine either- regular or junk mail so I posted on the measurers facebook page. There was a mix of guys who got it / didn’t get it and some went to junk.. I called the office and they sent it to me
Bob, I've been on the P&Y email list to do all voting electronically for new Regular and Senior candidates plus any bylaw changes for the past few years. Sure cuts out the mail lag time caused by canoe and dog sled delivery up here in Canada. Suspect it would help in Alaska too. Bet you can get set up similarly.
For sure there are times when a light will let you shoot during legal hours when you would not be able to shoot without a light.
They make pins that used radiation to glow a little and work the same that were legal for P&Y seemed like a silly thing for P&Y to not permit lights that need a battery but glowing pins were ok.
To bright of a light and you only see pins, to dim it is pointless. I have used them it it was very rare I needed them and stopped using them - but they do work and can help during legal hours - and they would encourage unethical hunters to hunt outside legal hours. That said unethical hunters are not going to change because P&Y has this rule.
As someone with eye disease and uses a sight light, depending on situation I needed to use the light hours before legal shooting light due cloud cover and heavy tree cover 9r just because it helped me see my pin. I am at the point of going to a red dot I am having so many issues with sight pins. So I am definatley for it.
With that said, I could also care less if P&Y allows them or not as long as it allows me to still hunt. I just wouldn't enter it then.
I killed more record-class animals with a longbow than anything else, and never felt like I was at a disadvantage, or needed to have "extra credit" added to the animal's final score.
Now I shoot a compound, hunt exactly the same way I did before. So maybe I should have a few inches deducted from the antlers of my last few animals?
Not if you're wearing your leather underwear, Lou. That'll keep you legit.
Got mine from the Leatherwall classifieds. Note that it's "vegan leather", because, well, those guys don't kill much over there. But they sure have style!
Not sure where that Pic came from, because it isn't mine...
I wish you'd just stuck with the turkey pic!
Lou You know Comptons scoring isn't just about the bow. Tho they do give a few points for using a selfbow over a recurve or longbow. Ground vs tree, guided vs unguided...To each his own. I like the system. Didn't mean to get your leather undies in an uproar. I have killed my share of large antlered animals with a longbow as well and dozens with a compound, I definitely have an advantage when using a compound, overall. There are times the longbow has an advantage Yeah yeah. Pretty sure that is true for 99.9% of the bowhunting world.. You being that .1% Just bought the fedora and the leathers just in case they do ad that.
Doesn't bother me. I'm a Regular member of P&Y. Just seems hilarious to me that some trad folks are so insecure that they give themselves (through "scoring the animal") extra points for silly stuff that should be irrelevant. But then, that's partly why I wasn't real fond of the whole "We're better than you" trad scene in the first place. And I'm friends with a couple of the guys who devised the Compton's scoring system.
The more trad guys I come in contact with the more it seems a fair percentage of them do it for the romance and the built in excuse for wounded game because boy is there wound rate higher
I’m speaking about a group a population a subset not indicting every traditional archer which I was one for quite some time
As a dedicated longbow shooter for the last 44 years, I tend to take offense at the comments about trad guys wounding rates. All of the guys I know that hunt with traditional equipment are dedicated and serious hunters who will do everything to make a good kill. However stuff can happen, but I also see it happen a lot with compound shooters also. Plus I think the vast majority of bowhunters are the serious type who frequent here. Too many get the bow out in August or September, shoot 3 arrows and say that's good enough. However this has nothing to do with the OP post about Pope and Young, which I won't comment on as it doesn't affect my hunting style.
bou maybe you stop down in unit 34 in new mexico . check out the wounded elk from the compound machine shooters flinging arrows at 90 plus yards.last year the warden had to put down a bull with 6 arrows in him. i was driving a road saw a bull in the middle of the field all hunched up gut shot. along came the compound dope tells me he shot him at 75 yds according to his range finder. i guarantee more elk are wounded with the compound than with a trad bow. p&y the ego club quit along time ago.
No doubt compounds wound more than trad. That is an absolute. As a percentage of those who shoot though I doubt the numbers are skewed Anywhere near compound. 94% of bowhunting is done with compound. Surprised there are more Wounds with the those in the absolute. ????
Unfortunately archery seasons do have hunters who wound game. Most hunters have wounded game, no matter how hard they prepare. I have wounded game. Is there a solution, and why all the finger pointing and discussion ? Is bowhunting inhumane ?
“As a percentage of those who shoot though I doubt the numbers are skewed Anywhere near compound.”
I dunno. I knew a guy who spent an enormous amount of time on the 3D course and only rarely picked up an 8, let alone any 5s. And that’s shooting at “Compound Stake” distances.
Same guy, one year I asked how his deer season was going and he said he’d hit 8 and recovered 4. He was a long-time bowhunter, too. Can’t chalk it up to any lack of experience, but maybe an obstacle to learning from what he had?
Either way… Should I judge all compound shooters based on the one guy?
Don’t get me wrong— anyone who thinks that a single-string bow is any kind of excuse for poor shooting or poor shot selection has no business hunting with one… but A) I don’t believe that that’s anywhere near a commonly held or accepted attitude, and B) if it were, and if you were to require That Guy to use a compound instead. I would expect that his wounding rate would not change; it’d just happen a bit farther away.
What is the archery season recovery rate ?
I did my own study a few years ago.. couple hundred deer. Memory is not perfect here but it was 93% Rifle, 87% compound and 83% trad bow or something close to this. I know that was the order and close to the percentages. If I find it Ill post it.
Corax, you should cut his bowstring, the guy that hit eight and recovered four in one season.
For archery seasons today, in most states where legal, the crossbow use outpaces the others combined. Crossbows now being the dominant archery season weapon has to be included in the statistics.
How can they prove what you use on your bow?
I was referring to archery season wounding rates, a subject not initially brought up by me. Kind of sad how some blame others based on weapon choice. Wounding is a necessary fact of bow hunting, whether some like it or not.
Meanwhile, at the other extreme and $1300 poorer...
https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-Right-Handed-Auto-ranging-Microadjustments-Elevation/dp/B09GCJVLPL?tag=camdenxodl-20&ascsubtag=0000OL0000150326O1194060320240716061603&th=1
It will be interesting to see if the cost on these units come down and if so, how many will be adopting them.
I just want a dam sight I can see lol and honestly if that Garmin or a red dot or whatever allows me to keep hunting with a vertical bow, I am happy.
I would still keep my shots at 20 and under.
I voted no. I like less technology, not more.
No vote here. As a few noted, the concept of fair chase overrules all. At some point, with all of the modern technical advantages we already have, with 90%+ letoff here, site lights, bow attached rangefinders there, the line between vertical drawn bows and crossbows will go away, and the principles of fair chase will be more & more watered down. I do know that site lights will help to make those after hours takes a lot easier. If you need to sky draw to be able to find your pin, its probably too dark to shoot, but everyone wants the easy button and doesn't want to have to exercise any ethics or restraint.
wore a fedora, a checkered flannel shirt, leather underpants, shot it with a longbow vs. a recurve, etc...
:>))))))
It’s a silly rule. There are ten other gadgets that tip the scales towards the hunter more than a light. Fiber optics for one are more effective more times than a light on sight pins.
Man did this thread take a side trip to the RABBIT HOLE!
x1 timberdoodle, I agree, where do we draw the line? I grew up understanding that bowhunting & muzzleloader hunting was about the primitive experience.
The vote is in...lighted sights are now accepted by P&Y.
As they should be and in their best interest as well.
As I understand the rule revision- any animal previously taken with a lighted pin may now be entered in record book. I my interpretation correct ?
Why didn’t P&Y share the actual voting numbers? I’d like to know either how close of a vote it was or how far my peers have veered away from traditional values.
If I recall the ballot background info, the records committee passed this by only one vote to bring it to the board. Then 2 board members voted no. How did the membership vote.
Once again finding myself in the minority.
From my experience... if it goes to the membership vote it'll pass. Rangefinder sights are next. You cannot defend lighted sights not giving the hunter an advantage... Ed F
Todd:
The voting numbers reported were 136 in favor and 104 opposed.
Agreed Ed.
Thanks Roy. Going off memory, but by-law changes require 2/3rds to change, right?
Of course a fair chase boundary isn’t a by-law change, so simple majority rules.
No, sir. It takes 2/3 majority of Board approval to send it to the voting membership. Their vote (regular/senior) is simple majority.
Lines in the sand get washed away with the tide.
The technology ship sailed years ago. P&Y will likely continue to swim after it with changes. Yes, that means crossbows at some point. I'm not a member and not my business.
Most hunters in the east use crossbows, seems like P and Y will accept them at some point. After all, being in the book is not about the hunter, but according to many, to honor the animal. In that case, weapon should not matter as the animal did it's part.
Thanks for clarifying Roy.
Indeed, about honoring the animal, sure it is? If that was true, there would be no hunter name associated with recorded data.
Likewise, it is no honor to the beautiful Sitka Blacktail deer to have a category in which almost all recorded entries will consist of morphydite, a-sexual deviants that certainly neither honor nor represent the species. Perhaps that’s why they haven’t been added to the online data search records.
P&Y will never accept crossbow entries……no need to, as there is a new organization that only accepts crossbow entries after receiving permission to use the B&C scoring system. It is called bolt and quarrel.
Isn’t not accepting crossbow not fair to older guys who can’t draw bows back or do they have a category for that?
It’s not about fairness it’s about meeting a standard. You do or don’t. That’s not unfair.
Well sawtoorh I live in the East , unless you have numbers on the "most of the hunters use crossbows" I think you should recount. Its sad how many but its not Most. 72 and still pulling a bow
It is "most" east of the Mississippi. Wisconsin actually tracks it, very much most there.
Not sure if most hunters use a crossbow but I am sure all crossbow users enjoy a higher success rate. That in itself points to the superiority of the weapon and highlights why P&Y should never accept them and why state game agencies should severely limit seasons they can be used in.
I keep track of the weapons used on the deer I measure. Xbows currently lead the pack. That being said, most, not all, of the guys using compounds and longbows are much happier than the xbow guys when they come for a measure. The average deer score is slightly higher with vertical bows as well. This is only what I have observed and kept tabs on for 2 seasons. Im sure others would have different results.
As an old man bowhunter myself, it isn’t the responsibility of the club to meet anyone’s limitations by altering entry requirements. Aging out of participation is simply a fact of life, individuals need to deal with it. Fair isn’t part of the equation of life.
What if you are young but blow your shoulder out?
Spike, life isn't fair, those who are young and blow out their shoulders can either use that as an excuse or work hard and get their shoulders back in shape to be able to draw a bow.
Before you get on me saying that isn't realistic, I am 43 years old and have dislocated each shoulder over 50 times each! I had reconstructive surgery on each shoulder when I was 21, my right shoulder was done in August and my left was put back together in October of that same year. I spent 3 hours 7 days a week in a rehab facility and was able to not miss any time in Division 1 lacrosse that spring. If someone wants it badly enough, they can work hard and get it, or they can have a victim mentality and come up with excuses. It's that simple.
The victim mentality is tremendously abused. Life is not fair, take your hits and move on.
What if you blew your shoulder out and should get to use a crossbow? What if you were born with XY chromosomes but wanted to box/swim/race in the ladies division?
They have bolt & quarrel, so crossbows have their own system. Sounds good to me. That said, I am looking forward to the range finding sights being allowed sometime in the next 15-20 years, in time for my slam when/if I get there.
"That said, I am looking forward to the range finding sights being allowed sometime in the next 15-20 years, in time for my slam when/if I get there."
Do something about it and get the process started... squeaky wheel gets the oil... just like lighted sights and gross score. Ed F
Just got my first two animals down this week. Don't know if they will score for P&Y yet, but I suspect my muskox will. One of the guys tells me my caribou should score high enough. Then it will just be the sight ruling needing to be fixed. Hard to do much from Kangerlussuaq right now - just trying to catch up on being off grid for a week.
