First time I ventured into the backcountry was well before the advent of personal locator/communication devices and I carried a paper map and compass. Being disconnected/removed from the modern world is one of the main reasons I go. That being said my girlfriend has asked that I take one this year. I'm going to get an In Reach Messenger. I don't see it as a "Tap Out Button" but as peace of mind for her, so I'm packing it.
My brother and I are thinking to get a couple just so we can tell everybody to go about their damn business because if we needed any help we’d have it on the way already!
You can chose to use it, or not. I turn on my InReach once a day, to send a preset message to my wife letting her know that I'm OK, and here's where I'm camped now.
should an emergency happen, i deal with it the best i can. if it turns out that is where i give up the ghost, i'm good with it and just hope it is not too painful.
i suppose an outfitter has liability and despite the signed release of liability, should a client die regardless of cause, and they not have a means to contact emergency help, a sleezy attorney could sue. it may be unlikely the outfitter would be held liable but, they will attack the outfitters preparedness, training, and challenge whether they provided the service in good faith.
That said I’m getting older and my wife taught some sense into me, I decided to get one of the Zoleo units - though nothing will ever happen , right?
Well, last year something did, but it wasn’t to me. It was to my daughter. She had a fluke accident and was in the hospital with a collapsed lung. Very serious about to undergo surgery and I never would have known without that zoleo as I was 3 miles into the backcountry on an elk hunt. (BTW, tough kid, she is fine now)
Yeah, I won’t hunt without it
From Garmin: "The numbers also show that a significant number of people have had SOS called on their behalf by a good samaritan with a satellite communication device. Almost a quarter of all SOS signals came from a third party (as opposed to the inReach subscriber or a member of their party). Carrying a satellite communication device could save your life. It could also save someone else.
Not surprisingly, most people hit their SOS button because they either got injured or were facing a medical emergency (which could include anything from altitude sickness, gastrointestinal issues due to bad water, or other medical ailments not related to the adventure at hand). Interestingly, wildfire accounts for a not insignificant percent of SOS incidents, a number that may continue to grow as fire season expands past its traditional seasonal boundaries in the West.
Same with my phone I do not leave it on all the time all day long. My phone will go five days on airplane mode using the GPS and taking pictures.
I do take one of those anker 10,000 K batteries just in case. I can get two full phone charges from that.
The problem with those satellite phones is you very rarely have a conversation where it doesn’t cut out.
Don’t turn your head. -
I know for a fact, some of you are smiling and nodding your head at that one.
Sat phones are a viable option, about $200 per Hunt.
I now have an In-Reach on the annual safety plan. I don’t use it much- it’s more for emergencies but I have it on YEAR ROUND now whenever hunting, fishing, backpacking, camping , hiking, biking and even ice-fishing. Kind of like American Express……………I don’t leave home without it! ;-)
Power bank or small solar panel. They hold a charge for quite awhile.
I have a ZOLEO. I go camping, four wheeling, scouting without having any real destination in mind so most times I cant leave a note as to where I’ll be. Wherever I wind up for the night I hit the check in button.
Aren’t those places The Best??
@ t-roy — how much you wanna bet? I have 2 kids in college now, so go big!!
Go big, as in that explains why every post of yours uses 10 words when 2 would do?
Plus with that Zoleo unit, you can shut it off for whatever months of the year that you are not using it- no montly fee- so it’s relatively small outlay.
Exactly. And honestly, the reason I brought this up…
If you think about it for one hot minute, it is CLEARLY Unethical to go into an actual backcountry situation WITHOUT some immediate means of summoning help to your precise location.
I’ll just give the haters a moment to wind up their undies extra tight here….
But here’s the thing…
Rescues and Search Parties are costly, dangerous, and underresourced. If someone is going to come looking for you and you create a need for a (delayed) large-scale S&R effort when a small, tailored asset group could have been sent directly to your position in a timely fashion, you are wasting scarce resources and putting people needlessly into harm’s way just for the privilege of feeling “self reliant”… which, incidentally, you will be unable to enjoy very much if you are Permanently Crippled, or Dead, or responsible for the harm that came to someone who stepped up to help find your dumb ass, or to someone who was not found In Time because people were out looking for you instead.
Or to put it in terms that even the most narcissistic can comprehend… If you know that YOU are going to have to pay the full bill on your rescue…. You wanna be able to make that phone call or not?
You want one? Buy it. Use it. If that makes it easier, then do it. You owe no one an explanation. Just like no gives a rip how you feel about them not using it.
This thread topic came up about two years ago. I got blasted for saying I don’t have one. Nor see a reason for one. When your time is up, you are leaving here. No tap out button is going to save you. That’s reality. Debate this till you are blue in the face. But, unless you have figured out how to be in charge of everything, that’s simply the way it is.
If my wife ever asks me to get one I will. So far she hasn’t and I don’t suspect she ever will. However, most of my hunting here is done within 5 miles of the truck or camp So, there is that.
If it makes your stay more pleasant it’s a small price to pay for that piece of mind.
I don't consider it a "tap out" because its not a cage fight where I am trying to conquer mother nature fighting against the mountain. Its just normal life but farther away from help and bigger consequences than getting a flat tire down the block.
No, it’s really not; more of an attempt at a little humor…. Tapping Out is quitting; calling for help when you’re likely to die if you don’t is just knowing when it’s Game Over, and then resolving the problem with a minimum of cost/effort/risk to the rescue team.
“When your time is up, you are leaving here. No tap out button is going to save you. That’s reality. ”
That’s fine. Do you leave a written “Do not send anyone to come find me” letter at home to ensure that no one is put at risk and no resources will expended on looking for you so that no one else will ever be harmed by your decision to accept your fate?
And FWIW, it’s just as/even more Unethical to misuse these things…. Like calling 911 when McDonalds is out of cheese for your burger…. Probably just a matter of time before somebody requests a Medevac because they ran out of toilet paper….
If you have a good partner who can get out, find help, and either lead or direct a rescue team to go help you, that really resolves the Ethical dilemma — at that point, it’s just a matter of whether you’re prepared to give up that Golden Hour which might keep you alive if you were critically injured.
I’ll bet Rut-Nut would have been all too happy to be able to make that call when that snake hit him….
8 years ago, I had a horrific tree stand accident. Fortunately for me I had a cell phone and service and managed to call for help. 3 1/2 months in hospitals and rehabs, 6 surgeries, and a 4 year recovery. Lesson learned. But, you don't always have cell service.
I was able to hunt the next year, but I bought an InReach. I can text my location to my wife automatically with every message. I check in with her in the morning, mid-afternoon, and when I get to the truck. It seems to give her a great deal of comfort. And I can use it summon help should I ever need it again.
Read the seventh sentence till the end of the quotations. Twice. Now, sincerely ask yourself if I care how my beliefs, makes you feel?
I’ll bet Rut-Nut would have been all too happy to be able to make that call when that snake hit him…
As I said above, it likely would have been a “game changer” in my situation. (Had I had one at my disposal) I would have given anything to have one that fateful day!
Which is pretty consistent with shooting a roundball muzzleloader, or a single-string bow without sights, or a lever-action .45/70 with sights of steel & brass…
I know that I’m legally permitted to use a whole lot more technology than I do, but I just don’t want to. Guess I should blame that on reading Hunting The Hard Way at an impressionable age.
But it’s HUNTING the HARD way, not Dying The Stupid Way that interests me… I want to Be Here, not Remembered for my hard-headedness.
What has changed is that the devices now cost less than a lot of bowhunters will spend on a sight, a drop-way arrow rest, a rangefinder or a half-dozen hunting arrows. Or in many cases, a half-dozen schwanky broadheads, for that matter.
But the Ethical point simply comes down to Resources and Risk.
If nobody is sure where you are or what your situation is, you’re talking about rounding up a large number of people who will probably assume that if you have come to harm, it probably happened in the most dangerous spots within the general area that you outlined when you left word. Lots of people, lots of potential for them to come to harm while looking for you. And if people are looking for YOU, they’re not able to search for or assist anyone else.
On the other hand, if the rescue team knows right where you are, they can head right to you via the fastest and safest route possible, and they don’t need any more people than your medical condition demands. Minimum Resources, minimum Risk.
And think of it this way…. Let’s assume that you or someone you care about is out there and has an accident which separates them from their own SOS comms or renders them incapable of making use of it; how would you feel about someone 50 miles away who (it will eventually come out) just got “turned around a little”, and all of the S&R teams are out looking for some dumbass who headed out without a map or compass, and there just aren’t enough resources available to come searching for you as you lie there dying? Or if not you, what about your son/daughter/grandchild?
Clearly, if all of the facts were known, the correct Ethical decision would be to allocate the rescue resources to the person who needs the help the most. You don’t go choosing to search for a Lost Dumbass over someone with serious injuries just because Dumbass’ people called him in Lost a few hours earlier. So I might argue that the Ethical Responsibility that we all share is to be able to provide potential rescuers with as much information as possible so that they can send help Where, When, and As needed.
Ethics are really about how our own actions and decisions affect Other People, not ourselves. If you’re OK literally dying on that hill for the sake of self-reliance, that is truly your own decision. But there’s no ethical justification for consuming the rescue resources or putting those people at risk when you could either direct the effort efficiently or even call off altogether….
And not-for-nothin’, but a big issue with S&R resources is Burnout. Trained, dedicated people get awfully tired of putting all that time, effort and stress into what turns out to be the Recovery of the body of someone who died of sheer Stupidity.
In regard to having an outfitter come in and pack my elk out, apparently you feel that using an outfitter to pack out an elk is somehow unethical! Seriously!? Again, you're making an erroneous and in my opinion a ridiculous assumption. It's not like I'm hiking 8 miles into the wilderness without a plan and then desperately trying to message outfitters in the hopes of finding one to pack my elk out before it spoils!! I can't believe I even have to explain this but in the scenario I'm referring to I had a prearranged agreement with an outfitter who would come in and pack my elk out when I get one. Since I'm in the wilderness with no cell service I wasn't able to call but I was able to send him an InReach message and include the location of my boned out and bagged bull. Using the InReach saves me the time and effort of having to do a 16 mile round trip hike to get the outfitter and go back to the bull. Instead I can break down my camp and finish taking care of the bull while I wait for the outfitter.
I really can't believe how some people are so quick to jump to conclusions and unethical presumptions rather than maybe giving the situation a little more thought before rendering judgement. It's pretty disappointing...
The other part….
But 50 years ago (unless you and your outfitter were packing some Army Surplus field comms, I suppose) you wouldn’t have any option but to make that 16-mile trip or just find a way to keep your meat cool until the outfitter showed up according to the schedule you had agreed to. And depending on what the agreement was, that might in fact influence how you hunt, where you hunt, or whether you even take a shot when it’s offered to you. So that just comes down to how important the self-reliance aspect is to you. These days, as evidenced by the technology that people take afield, it’s simply not as important as it used to be, just by default. Used to be that you had to be able to hold the full weight of your bow on your fingers; had to be able to judge distance with your own two eyeballs; had to be able to sharpen your own broadheads; it’s a long list of things which (more and more, these days) some people choose to pay for and others still find a suitable way to manage themselves…
Hmmm… I think ethics are quite literally about ourselves. Ethics is a self determination of what we think is right or wrong. Not what we think others think we should think is right or wrong. Yeah, I had to reread that last one again too…??
It's not 50 years ago and what does "50 years ago" have to do with anything? What happened then is irrelevant unless for some reason you personally choose to limit yourself to 50 year old technology. And in that case, what happened 50 years ago is only relevant to you.
I guess I'll continue to be unethical and drive my truck and use my cell phone...
Corax_latrans's Link
Words have meanings. You don’t get to make up your own definitions. And the fact that a word is commonly misunderstood does not change what the meaning actually is.
The article I linked handles it pretty well …
“ First, ethics refers to well-founded standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues.”
Your personal standards are your Values. Ethics aren’t about your feelings, and they’re not about what other people think about you; that’s Peer Pressure. And in case you haven’t noticed, peer pressure is often NOT a positive influence on people’s behavior….
So to have a little fun with your example… Peeing in public is in many cases illegal; in other cases it’s viewed as impolite, so we’ll say that it’s generally outside of social norms, but it only becomes “unethical” if someone else will foreseeably be harmed by it… such as peeing into a water supply.
Easy tests for whether something Ethical or not: Would you do it to/for a stranger but not your next of kin? Would you object if someone did it to you or someone you care about?
So maybe a deer drive past someone’s (occupied) tree stand, or maneuvering to intercept a bull which you know some other party is trying to call in… Stuff like that…
Otherwise his comments here could have been misconstrued as Hypocritical.
And the relevance of my choices in hunting equipment to a thread about why it’s arguably unethical to go solo into the backcountry WITHOUT satellite communications is…. ???
GF, I'm assuming you don't carry a first aid kit either, right?
Never had an emergency but is nice to have options if do and are beyond cell connection or your phone is toast. I think of it as a fire extinguisher. May never need it and that is okay that I spent the money since if I do need it then I really, really need it.
I hope I tip over packing out a bighorn sheep in my 90s and am looking up as blue autumn skies when the lights go out but likely will be less glorious such as while on a toilet at a truck stop after a bad meal while headed on a long drive to see relatives.
An InReach would have gotten medical help there sooner, but wouldn't have saved his life.
Nope. If I cut myself bad or my diverticulitis flares up from eating too much trail food and freeze-dried, I’ll just curl up and die because obviously it’s My Time To Go! ;)
I’m guessing there are people responding on this thread who have no clue how dangerous S&R work is… Or how quickly the S&R volunteers burn out from retrieving the bodies of people who took on a wilderness loop using the “map” on their placemat from the diner….
And ask yourself this… if you could spare your family even one night of not knowing where you are or whether you’re hurt or how badly — to say nothing of not knowing for DAYS while everybody knows that your odds of surviving are worsening by the minute — how much would you pay to do that??
LOL
So why do anything to take care of one's self? Why take medicine? Why exercise? Why wait for the walk sign to come on at the crosswalk vs. darting out into traffic? Why wear a safety belt in a tree stand? Why bother opening the garage door if your car is running and you are working on it? Why take the stairs down from the third floor vs. just juming out the window since it's fast to jump? Would you not have someone perform CPR on you? Would you not wear a life preserver if you were a white water rafting figuring that if it’s your time to drown it’s your time to drown?
Obviously every hour we are awake we do things to stay safe and reduce the chance of unnecessary harm coming to us. A call for help device is nothing more than that...........a way to give us a chance to hang around a bit longer because not every potentially deadly risk has to be accepted with a cavalier "if it's time it's time" mentality
Perhaps, if like signing a DNR when going to the hospital, we could have a "Do Not Even Go And Look For Me" paper somebody could sign before they go hunting or hiking, we could minimize the undue burden on S&R personnel, save the tax payers some money and let these people litter the landscape and become the next hiker's problem to deal with, just like the corpses on Everest.
Do you never make a cell phone call on a hunt when you are in service range? Cmon....Hypocrite much?
I'm glad I was able to meet my daughter last year in the Hospital before her emergency surgery- all thanks to my Zoleo. I get it, that stuff doesn't matter to you....it does to me.
Throughout this thread, I have advocated for the use of reliable communications (up to and including satellite-system devices) to either/both summon prompt & appropriate assistance when needed and to provide partners/families/loved ones with assurance that no assistance is needed when it isn’t. So now you’re trying to call me out as a “hypocrite” by flat out lying about what I’ve said on the matter. I’m calling BS.
And (since you asked) I am not The One drawing a line on this subject; it’s a very straightforward position.
Fact: S&R is expensive and dangerous.
Fact: S&R Resources are limited and frequently in short supply.
Fact: Effective Comms save time, save man-hours, conserve resources, and reduce risks to rescue workers by letting them know right where they are going and what kind of situation they are getting into.
And there’s a lot more, but those will do. So the Ethical/Unethical call here is dirt simple. If, by your actions (in this case rejecting suitable communications technology), you become the focus of a rescue effort which is larger, longer, costlier or more dangerous than otherwise would have been necessary, then you will have (avoidably/preventably) consumed a valuable and limited public resource. And that’s Unethical because others will foreseeably be harmed by your decision.
Unless you’ve left that Do Not Rescue letter with someone who will see to it that your wishes are fully honored, I suppose… Though I wouldn’t want to be That Person when they decide that you must be good and dead by now and they report your disappearance to the authorities….
And with that in mind, I don’t think I’d object too strenuously to billing the Rescued Party (let’s just say “RP”) for the costs of extraction when it could be determined that the RP had been negligent/had not made a reasonable effort to provide for reliable communications in case of emergency.
If a guy wants to gamble the cost of an extraction, that’s fine…. as long as its his own money, and not state/local funds.
Unfortunately, the "tap out" button is being grossly abused by yuppie hikers. They report running out of water a couple miles from the trailhead, tired dogs, out of snacks, flat tire, you name it. Garmin's 2023 stats show hunters as a tiny proportion of the SOS calls, which isn't surprising since we tend to be pretty self reliant. Most came from hikers.
A California SAR trading of incidents over a four year period indicated that 48% of calls "had no merit at all". The supervisor calls it "Yuppie 911".
Like with anything else, a few dumbasses ruin it for the responsible users.
And while I wouldn’t endorse a law requiring anyone to carry one, I WOULD be on board with prosecuting abuse/misuse under the same statutes/principles which apply to 911 calls, false fire alarms, etc.
Reminds me of a story from when GPS was relatively new… a guy called 911 saying he was lost on an old logging road somewhere in some deep woods. Operator let that slide; asked him his position and where he’d parked; told him to head North.
[Five minutes later]
“911 operator, what’s your emergency?”
“Yeah, ummmmmm…. How do I know which way is North??”
