Don't Shoot...She got little Ones!
Whitetail Deer
Research has proven that fawns 60+ days old have the same mortality rate as adults even when orphaned. Turn those arrows loose.
Like farmers, harvest the young ones save the breeding stock. Modern hunters got it backwards.
Especially find it humorous, self justification “it was a dry doe”, seldom happens, most likely lost fawn(s) early on. ,
I feel that the fawns "left behind" after the doe has been shot are actually at a physiological advantage. Without Mom there constantly telling them not to go out to the food source too early, they feed continually throughout the day in a non-competitive manner. Ever notice that lone fawn feeding in a field early afternoon every day? That extra nutrition has to make a difference!
Well, in parts of pennsylvania near the cities we have areas that have a high deer density and too many doe they issue a lot of tags for. We hunt those areas and to get permission for some of those areas you're objective is shooting doe. Period. Mature doe get shot in those areas every time, without exception in every season. With fawns or without, if you are able to shoot the lead doe first, even better. That video reminds me of peta propaganda.
I'm conflicted over this, I used to shoot big ones, and the little ones, now not so much. I killed a huge doe last year and she was in fact dry. Usually they are not.
Castle Oak, "Research has proven that fawns 60+ days old have the same mortality rate as adults even when orphaned". This is one of these "researched proven facts" that to me, defy common sense. An adult deer normally is faster, stronger, and has been around dangerous situations numerous times should have better survival skills as 60-180 day old fawns. Do you think the outcome of the research could have to do with what Bowhunting 5C said that more mature deer are shot than younger and smaller fawns? C.O. I realize that this was not your study and your just passing it along, Gene.
Additional details to my post, to secure permission and keep it, in archery only properties we must shoot doe and in numbers to keep permission. This practice of shooting mature doe is as much a requirement as it is for herd management. Our shooting of mature doe, with or without fawns is practically by design, the mortality rate of fawns is not high, our winters are mild and while we do have predation (yotes) they don't dent the herds. But shooting the lead doe essentially dumbs down the herd and shooting others is easier.
I was hunting over a food plot on my property and had about 8 deer out in it. I shot a doe that I thought was alone. I realized that I forgot my flashlight at the house, so I drive home, ate dinner and brought the flashlight out to find and recover my doe. I got on the trail and as I was getting close to the deer, heard some movement in the does direction. When I came up on the doe, there were two impressions in the snow, where this does two fawns laid down next to their dead mother... That bummed me out so bad. Call me a puss, but I will never shoot another doe unless I can be certain that they are without fawns...
Jay, that's why they issue antlerless tags. No harm in it.
stop saying "doe" plural. Everyone knows its DOE'S. :)
I shoot every doe that has a button buck with her… I figure it puts the Button 6 months behind the learning curve.
Regardless of “research” I won’t shoot a doe with fawns following her where I currently hunt. They follow for a reason, and it’s because they aren’t leaders yet. I know I have probably shot does in my life that had fawns somewhere, but not on purpose. When I had a lease in Central Texas, the first 15 years or so, we didn’t worry about it because we killed most of our does in December and we had no coyotes. In East Texas, we have LOTS of coyotes and I just think the fawns are better off if mama is around. There are usually plenty of does with no fawns due to coyote predation.
My belief is that even if a fawn can survive if it's mother is killed within the first few months of it's life there are a lot of things it's mother would have taught it (avoiding predators for example) that will not happen, making the fawn more susceptible to an early demise. When I was younger I'd tell myself they'll all be fine and I'd take a doe with or without fawns, but either age or simply me being honest with myself changed my tune big time, and these days during early season I will not shoot a doe with fawns, in fact I typically watch the doe for some time to make sure no fawns come out before dropping the string. Many years back I shot a doe that had just came into a plot, 2 minutes later out comes a fawn looking for it. I sat that same stand the next few evenings and every evening getting close to dusk I'd hear a bleating sound, and sure enough out would come this fawn wandering around looking for it's mother. I sat the same stand a full week later, and it was doing the same thing. Much like JayG's experience, it was a real bummer and something I do my best to make sure never happens again.
I can see the moral/ethical dilemma for some and I understand that. I was merely pointing out solid scientific research for those on the fence about harvesting a wet doe. Me, I shoot the doe, call the fawn back in and shoot it too-orphan issue fixed.
Rob, not counting archery or gun kills do you believe the mortality rate is the same between young fawns and mature deer?
Personally if I'm doe hunting I prefer a 1.5-2.5 year old. But your strategy would certainly handle the orphan issue!
I'm with Huntcell and Castle oak on this one. In one of the places I hunt the goal is doe removal. Usually the youngster will find another doe group to attach to. The buttons (stupidest deer in the woods) will be on their own in another month anyway, and they get picked on by every other deer out there(does and bucks, neither one wants them around)
If I only had a couple of tags then I might go for a larger animal, or I want one to make sausage/jerky and such, but the young ones are much better table fare then an old dry doe.
Interesting topic. I have encountered fawns wandering around and, from a being hunted perspective, not being smart. I have seen this it late summer when I think mom got hit by a car. Also during October archery season. I also see it a lot in November when I assume bucks ran fawns off, or mom was running wild and lost them. I once watched a mature buck sniff wheeze and raise his back hair at a fawn button buck with spots near mom. Odd.
I find it hard to believe a fawn leaving mom sooner has the same odds at survival but I am open to hearing how this could happen.
I would not shoot a doe in early season with fawns. Later in the year, meaning November, I would.
I have some trail cam pics of an apparently orphaned young deer, who was hanging with a pair of adult bucks in the summer. They seemed to tolerate her.
Iowa season opens Oct. 1. I'll shoot a doe with fawn/s and not give it a second thought. Those fawns will be fine.
I think I’ve gotten soft in my old age… shot a doe that had a fawn with her with a rifle once and the fawn just stood 50 yards off bleating. Told myself that night I’d never do it again. I’d shoot the fawn 10 times out of 10 before shooting the doe. Makes the most sense not just from an emotional point of view, but from the sense that the fawn (assuming it’s a doe fawn) has 10+ years of reproductive life ahead of it, where the mature doe most likely has significantly less. From a population management perspective, I can’t see an argument that is against shooting the fawn over the mature doe whenever the fawn has the most breeding potential and longevity in future years.
Either way, I don’t think shooting does with fawns (or fawns with a doe) is something that should be broadcast. If I was a nonhunting member of society, seeing someone shoot a doe with a fawn (or a fawn with a doe) would be the quickest way to push me toward the anti camp
Same thoughts for cow elk with or without calf? Assuming you don't shoot the calf.
I think there is a little more herd dynamics to protect an orphan calf elk. I shot a cow last season that was pushed towards me by a nosing bull. At the shot the cow mule kicked and ran about 20 yards and fell. The bull followed and stood over her then ran. A few minutes later a calf came out of the timber and also stood by then ran off. I had no idea she had a calf.
Our archery season opens Saturday, and we have agreements with landonwers, in order to hunt those properties, removal of doe is the rule, if you don't someone else will and the amount of doe in these areas, urban developments and horse farms is nothing short of incredible.
How about the late breeding, we have had fawns a week old born in November and December. Small just dropped fawns. Shooting does, eliminating deer is part of the gig. If we start to humanize it, like a domesticated animal, with a name? With a newly acquired packs of yotes now in areas they have never been, predation now may be evident.
I had a doe drop at the shot years ago. The arrow went clean thru a fawn. Felt bad about it,,,But it was by far the best venison I have ever had. I had no idea the fawn was even there till it was hit.
If their mother is dead, they will go hang out with Aunt Mary.
I guess one thing that colors my reluctance to shoot a doe with a fawn is our recruitment rate. I can’t remember the exact numbers but in some areas it’s less than one. Almost all does are gonna have twins, but we see very few twins in the fall. We see lots of coyotes both on camera and in person.
If you want your herd to grow, shoot a fawn. If you want it to shrink, shoot a mature doe.
Getting “soft in your old age” is as inappropriate (from a management perspective) as being an ARA/PETA supporter.
So this may piss some folks off, but I highly advise you guys to watch the documentary, The Secret Life of Deer. It was a game changer for me. Before that video, I was the, "If ya want to keep a buck on your property, shoot the doe before she kicks the buck out to find a new territory, so he will stay where he's at". Now, I don't have the heart to intentionally orphan a fawn. Needless to say, my shooter list is pretty exclusive now. Bucks of 8 points or better, outside their ears or a mature doe without a fawn. After the rut it's bucks only... JayG
JayG, bucks rarely stay in one place, on property and for no reason at all get up and wonder miles, sometimes crossing highways, river's, valleys and mountains. Nature's way of preventing inbreeding. To each their own but hunters no matter the state are still wildlife game management tools.
The best doe to shoot is the 1st one that stands still long enough
I hunt in PA and my management zone, 2B, opens this Saturday for archery. I hunt a local farm and the farmer appreciates having doe killed. I like a full freezer so I have no problem killing doe. I have killed a good sized doe on opening morning the last 2 seasons and I will try to do the same again on Saturday.
I like to shoot a doe that I have to drag out with both hands and not one that I can throw over my shoulder and carry out. Again, I like a full freezer. I know guys that kill the little ones and that's their choice, they have the tag. I won't kill a doe with spotted fawns in tow because I think the fawns have a better chance to survive if mom is around when they have spots.
Corax is right. If you want to reduce the herd size you have to take out the mature does. The mature does will normally bear twin fawns and sometimes triplet fawns. Young does, 1.5 year and younger does usually only bear a single fawn. So, by shooting a mature doe, you are essentially taking up to 4 deer out of next year's herd.
I’ve shot does with and without fawns. I’ve never not shot one with a fawn because it had a fawn.
It’s timing. I think the earlier in the fall the more attachment the fawns have. By December it seems that most button bucks are on their own anyways.
"I think I’ve gotten soft in my old age… shot a doe that had a fawn with her with a rifle " Now that sounds dangerous. Hope that fawn took Hunter Ed. :)
I give the family units a pass.
Jay, I know what you mean... this was in the late 90's my first muzzy hunt in December here in wny, I wanted to shoot a deer so bad as I remember.
About 8 deer were digging for apples in the snow I'm up in my stand 20 yds away... something spooks them they all run around so I shoot the first one that presents a shot. I gets down from stand to find I just shot a doe fawn, I actually started crying as the mom stood yds away wanting to help her fawn... cell phones were becoming popular at that time I popped the antenna called the wife and told of the humt,
She said is the deer dead? Yes I replied, she says we'll get her up here as I was thinking what's for dinner tonight... best tasting venison I can remember! scentmouse
Interesting thread. I'm not sure on the management end.. I just dont have a lot of detailed knowledge there. In areas I feel dont have a lot of deer, sometimes I pass does. Other areas I happily shoot them - they taste good. I have shot skips over the years, but less and less often. They also taste good.
I don't shoot fawns, and I dont shoot does with fawns. I've seen orphaned fawns and how dumb they are without the mother. I've got a property I've owned 14 years, and in that time 2 does have been shot. Some years, I'll have 15 bucks and 15 does visit the crops early and late season. The does bring in the bucks for miles, and I've never understood the reasoning that fewer does are needed other than crop preservation. I do know all these guys around me that run failure piles and failure feeders sure get annoyed at all the corn the does eat.
I kill does. Keeps the farmers on either side of us happy.
I kill does. Keeps the farmers on either side of us happy.
Did someone says ‘little ones’?
Pic taken at my Wyoming cabin
Getting, retaining permission as well as longevity of an invite back requires herd management. Mature doe get killed, with or without.
No other way to explain it, to many deer and not enough tags.
Leaves are falling all around, time i was on my way.
Leaves are falling all around, time i was on my way.
Yep. That time of the Year.
Our State bowhunting organization has an early season group bowhunt in and around the Lehigh Valley of Pa, just north of Philadelphia. The farmers and property owners are over-run with deer and suffer a lot of crop damage! I had one of the farmers tell me: “IF IT HAS A MOUTH AND IS LEGAL TO SHOOT, KILL IT!” (Including button bucks and fawns) So on those 3 days in the early season I will honor the landowner’s wishes and shoot whatever is legal if it gives me an ethical shot.
Several years ago I had a (spotted) fawn and a mature doe come in to 40y one morning. The old doe stayed at 40y but the fawn came in to 20y and turned broadside. I waited to see if the doe would come closer, but she never did. Eventually she turned and walked back the way she had come. But the fawn just stayed there. I was hesitant to shoot, but after a few minutes I kept hearing the landowner say “IF IT HAS A MOUTH……………….”
So I shot it and it ran no more than 20y and dropped within sight. I had multiple tags, so I just kept hunting. About an hour later that big ‘ol doe came back through (probably looking for the fawn) and I shot her at 15y. I just kind of chuckled to myself and thought that fawn laying on the ground there was probably the best bait I could have had! ;-)
Deer are meat. Does have more meat, fawns have tenderer meat. I shoot whichever I choose at the time.
By the time Dec/Jan rolls around, the "fawns" have quite a bit of meat; maybe more than a 1.5 yr old doe that has been ran around by the bucks. For me, it is case-by-case on whether to shoot a doe with fawn(s). Spots is usually indicative of a no-go. Having said that, it feels like the herd on my farm is well educated, and I'm not sure that could be changed without a pretty good wipeout.
I’m still confused as to how you guys are arriving at the conclusion that shooting mature does has a higher impact on future herd size than fawns. Does are more likely to have triplets, sure. But saying that since the mature doe might have triplets whereas the yearling might only have one, so therefore next years herd will be larger if you shoot the fawn, you’re discounting the fact that eventually the yearling will be a mature doe and be throwing equal sized fawn crops plus all of their younger-year fawns.
If you look at overall fawns a doe will have in her lifetime, there’s no contest that the younger the deer the more fawns she will have in her lifetime. Therefore, eliminating a younger doe will have a larger impact on the overall long term herd population. Am I missing something here?
As far as not wanting to shoot family units due to compassion for the deer, I don’t think that’s the equivalent of being a PETA supporter. Is it bad to think fawns are cute? Or for farmers to have compassion about calves since they’re just food at the end of the day? I feel like you can both have compassion for animal family units and also acknowledge and respect Genesis 9:3. Just because every living thing that moves is food for humans doesn’t mean we can’t show compassion for them while also understanding their position on the food chain.
Exactly Boggs. Even though I choose not to knowingly disrupt family units does not mean I am against it, not at all. I am a very mature hunter and have killed hundreds of deer, I do not need the meat other than from my one or two bucks per year. I also kill elk, moose and other wild game, more than enough meat without whacking does with fawns, and fawns. Far from PETA.
In many areas, especially private, there are too many deer and not enough hunters. Cropping off does and female fawns is the best method of herd control.
We have a group of 4 fawns we see almost every day around the house. I’ll admit watching them chase each other around and frolic in the yard, I see them as cute. Just human nature I guess. Probably why my first tendency when I see them while hunting is to NOT want to shoot them.
But then the Predator in me takes over and I do what I need to do……………….
I shot a yearling last year, best tasting deer out there. If given the opportunity to take another I will every time.
I respect the research but “unfortunately” have reached the point of not shooting does with fawns any more. The truth is it has nothing really to do with wondering if the fawn will live or not, it just bums out the experience to find one standing or bedding next to its dead mom. I’ve been lucky enough to have many opportunities each year as well so I guess being able to be more selective helps.
I have trail cam video of 6-month old October twin fawns nursing...
I try to kill the biggest buck of the area and a 6 to 8 month old fawn for the freezer... Once shot a mature doe with twins in October and she dropped within sight... Got down out of the tree and approached and the fawns wouldn't leave her, practically had to shoo them away... I felt bad and have reframed from doing so since... Family groups now usually get a pass but depending on the circumstances and if the freezer is bare, I might take a fawn, but momma always gets a pass... I agree those 6-8 month old fawns are great table fare and also easy to handle by an old fat guy like me...8^)
Had a wise old doe behind the house and late during the week of our week long gun seasons she showed up at my feeder with 6 fawns which I suspect was her twins and fawns from others does which probably got blasted that week... I'm thinking likely her nieces and nephews...
Nothing wrong with hunters having compassion for wild animals. Filling a tag or the need for survival food has never been necessary for me.
I hit a yote with my truck a couple of weeks ago. I felt bad for it. But... I would have trapped him or shot him off the deck of my house without even a second thought.
I once watched a bobcat spend 20 minutes sneaking up on small flock of woodducks. At just the right moment he made his move. Ended up with nothing but wet feet and a face full of creek water (while the duck squeaked away, almost tauntingly). I swear that cat was embarrassed as it looked around flicking water off his legs. I had no interest in flinging an arrow at him.
Humans are a funny bunch. You do you.
I'm glad I don't have to worry about the dilemma of shooting does with fawns. I can only get one either sex deer tag per year in my area, and we don't have a deer population problem. In fact, I'd like to see our population grow. So, I've never killed a doe, and probably never will. I've never killed a cow elk, either, for the same reason.
When it comes to shooting does I go by what I am seeing for deer. After the bad EHD outbreak we had in 2012/2013 i quit shooting does for a number of years. Loosing 1/2 to 2/3 the herd I figured the herd needed all the help they could get in bouncing back.
Numbers are back up so a few years ago I started shooting a doe every year. Last year was the first year I shot 2 does since 2011.
With that said I start hunting September 1st every year. Fawns still have spots. I don’t shoot does early because well it’s warm and I don’t want to deal with taking care of a doe then but I will a buck.
Over the years come October I have shot plenty of does with fawns. The fawns will hang around the area mom disappears from for a while but by the time a week or two has passed I don’t see them anymore. I am assuming they have moved on.
One year I was hunting on the ground and just 5 min before last light I had an antler less deer come thru at 30y and I shot it and it ran 25y and bedded down. Shot was a little far back but it was bedded within sight. I waited and watched for the head to go down but unfortunately when my hunting partners came out to me they kicked it up. We left it overnight and came back the next day(it was in the mid 40’s that night). The next day we found a deer but it still had spots. I was convinced it was someone else’s deer because I never saw the spots. But after some deliberation I realized it had to be mine. It was a button buck and pretty big for a fawn of that year and being so close to last light and at 30y I just couldn’t see the spots.
After we skinned it I decided to have the hide tanned. I call it my Pa. Axis deer! ;-)
I leave herd management to the GF biologists. I'm sure they take fawn/calf survival into the tag allocation formula. A shot or orphaned fawn/calf isn't a blip on the data set. There were 3 road kill fawns within a mile of my house in July. I've always thought coyotes are the biggest threat in the first 30 days of a fawn's life then autos for the next 6 months.
Always wanted to kill a spotted fawn to craft a back quiver but most fawns have shed their spots by our bow season opener the last Saturday of September... Was watching a set of twins in the back field the other day and both of their spots had faded...
" I've always thought coyotes are the biggest threat in the first 30 days of a fawn's life then autos for the next 6 months. "
Many believe that the increase in the bear population is taking its toll on fawns.
