For reference…. In hard numbers, to drive a 450 grain arrow at 280 FPS, you’d need a #95 recurve… and a mechanical release, because fingers scrub off speed.
So practically speaking, #50-#55 is all you’ll ever need unless you’re booking a hunt where buying a whole new bow just for this trip would be a minor expense…
Bought a new Mathews Lift to replace my ten year old Helium(which replaced an 8 year old Drenalin) . Maybe the ten year newer technology is part of it, but what a beautiful and easy bow to shoot!!
You don't have to, though.
It's in men's nature to compete physically and push the boundaries of their personal physicality with much of it being based on machismo and bravado: it's in our DNA.
Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with machismo and bravado as there is nothing inherently wrong with men... Until it results in physical damage to your person unnecessarily.
As happens on every one of these threads, guys will stop reading at the sentence above and reply to me immediately in their defense because no man wants to think of themselves that way and almost no man wants to believe that they're needlessly hurting themselves physically due to some sort of battle in their head with themselves and others, but here's the disclaimer they'll miss:
1. More poundage is going to be better so long as it's truly not disaffecting your shot nor hurting your shoulders. 2. There are plenty of guys who can draw high-weight bows without hurting their shoulders.
Unfortunately, most guys don't know where the latter of those two things really starts.
If I had a nickel for everytime I've heard or seen guys who needed shoulder surgery due to a lifetime of drawing heavy-weight bows, I could pay for my daughter's college tuition with it.
Personally, I won't be one of those guys who ends up with shoulder surgery or shooting a crossbow because I screwed my shoulders up drawing a bow.
My compounds have been set at 52 lbs for 15 years. During that time, I've killed about a dozen species of NA big game including going through a mature billy mountain goat's humerus en route to it's chest, multiple elk, muskox, black bear, and Alaskan moose.
I cannot think of a single animal where I did not get two holes unless it was a frontal or I hit offside shoulder blade. I cannot think of a single animal that I lost because I didn't penetrate enough. I'll be hunting grizz and eventually brown bear with that draw weight as well in the near future. I have broken humerus, a couple spines, and a couple shoulder blades. I shot a Coues deer from directly above and went through it's spine, through the animal, through the sternum, and the BH stuck into the ground.
My AK moose this past September I hit in the back of the lungs and had only a frontal shot to hasten its passing. My frontal shot went the length of the lung to the diaphragm, which is somewhere between 3-4 feet of animal.
The advantages to shooting a lower weight besides being easy on your shoulders include being able to draw in awkward positions, draw smoothly, and being able to hold your draw for longer periods of time: I can draw my bow directly in front of me and behind me at 12 and 6 o'clock. I can draw my bow straight up above me head and straight down. I can draw my bow very slowly over 10+ seconds.
I've seen so many guys draw and they seem to be struggling. It's my opinion that most guys are 5+ lbs over-bowed and it only makes sense that we'd push it at least a little because men do that in everything.
We've done this a bunch of times and guys will pile on with their reasons for shooting higher weights and it's fine guys, you do you: I'm not pointing this at any one person specifically. I'm not insulting your manhood. But I remain steadfastly of the opinion that you don't have to shoot high weights - especially once you go north of 70 lbs. 52 lbs with a quality COC head kills NA game just fine, even the big species like moose.
Last disclaimer, I am a very skinny guy, but I work out 6 days a week. I've drawn my dad's old 80 lb Darton from the 90s. I just think the advantages of a lower weight bow outweigh a higher weight because modern compounds have plenty of power to get the job done, especially (with emphasis) on deer-sized animals.
When we first had this discussion 12-13 years ago, you were one of the people that took the most offense to my "machismo and bravado" claim (I firmly believe that's not the case for you in particular) because you stated that you were drawing, if memory serves me correctly, 26.5 inches and back then were drawing as you say you were above.
The problem is, your entire take was that you needed to draw a high weight to hunt elk because of your short draw length. The three inches of draw length that separate you and I account for about 10% of a bow's velocity, and yet you've dropped your draw weight between now and then by 22%.
And you've dropped it for the exact reason (physical issues) that I have listed as the big reason to drop it.
You're down around where I'm shooting now. FWIW, when we had that discussion back then, I was shooting the exact same bow at the exact same weight as I am today, the same bow that I just killed an AK moose with.
Since you brought it up, the only thing I took offense to was your comment that the only reason people shoot 70# was because of a “dick-waving contest” mentality. Yes, I disagreed with that comment, and still do. I gave several reasons why I shot the poundage I shot. Shooting 72# was comfortable and I could shoot it accurately. It also helped me achieve reasonable arrow speed. It helped make up for some of the disadvantage those of us with a short DL have, versus those such as yourself that have a long DL. Ego had zero influence on my draw weight.
Given the choice, I’d still be shooting a heavier poundage, although with today’s bows, it would be a few pounds less, due to their increased efficiency.
At nearly 71, those days are gone. However, since I can no longer draw a heavier weight, I’ve had to make some concessions. I used to have a self-imposed range limit of 50 yards. Due to my loss of energy, as a direct result of a lower draw weight, that range limit is now down to 35 yards. So no, shooting 52-55# isn’t a bed of roses for everyone.
It’s a funny thing… I have some shoulder issues — between the two, I’ve been in rehab probably 5 times and my bow-side has been dislocated and occasionally reminds me that it can pop out again, given only very modest provocation — and I’ll be 60 next month…. But those issues seem to be neither due to, nor exacerbated by, the poundage.
What DOES seem to be related to shooting recurves and longbows at 40%-45% of my body weight for the past 35 years is the scoliosis that nobody ever mentioned until I was nearly 40. And maybe it’s just the massive impact that injured it the day I met my wife (I guess if I could change one thing about that day, that’d be it), but my right shoulder rides an inch or so lower than my left. Guess we’ll see how I’m doing when I catch up to Paul’s age…..
But for the younger guys, yeah. I know you’re not holding any weight at anchor, but if you were working those groups at the same poundage in the gym, you’d be paying close attention to your form to prevent injuries, and from what I’ve seen of a lot of guys drawing heavier bows, Form is not really on the radar among MOST archers other than serious target shooters. This site is a slim slice, so maybe we’re all Above Average here….
But when my brother (whose DL is a couple inches longer than mine) was buying himself his first upgrade from the Sage he’s been shooting for the past 10 years or more, I couldn’t come up with a single compelling reason for him to go any heavier than the #48@29” he’s getting. 570 grains at 170 fps is pretty solid….
As a stickbow guy, I have trouble feeling sorry for anyone who is “limited” to 35 yards…. LOL
Ironically, I’ve never shot as well as I was shooting the #62. There’s something about holding that much weight at full draw that commands your attention….. But it’s probably gonna cost me somewhere down the line…
In my defense, with my shorter DL, I’m probably generating “all of” about 40 FPE, which is just short of comparable to a 350 grain arrow at about 230 fps…..
Ike is trying to get us to see the wisdom of giving up the smokes BEFORE we have cancer. And I’m doing a terrible job of listening…
For most guys, at least a few pounds on their top end does come down to machismo. They go to what they should and then tack on a few extra because that’s what men do (and I went to pains above to absolve you of that specific claim).
And you’re still making the same point. Perhaps 12 years ago you were shooting a really old bow, but my point was always that modern bows (in men’s size DLs, which we both have) negate the need for high poundage bows. And I’m still using that same bow as when I made the “dick-waving” comment (although I worded it slightly more gently in my first post above in an effort to not ruffle as many feathers).
So if you’re going to say that you were arguing apples to my oranges due to your bow choice (age), then I’m annoyed by that because, cerca 2012, we should have been safely assuming that we were talking about modern bows of that era.
And I maintain that my 2011 model bow can kill elk no problem at a 26.5 inch DL and out to 50 yards+.
Bows don’t lose that much velocity between 30 and 50 yards.
Is your new self-imposed range limit due to penetration concerns? Or is it due to accuracy due to the increased arch on your arrow?
That’s exactly what I’m saying.
Often times, the first symptom of a rotator cuff tear is the moment it tears.
And if it tears, you’re out of commission for months and your shoulder will never be the same even if you “fully heal,” just like any other part of your body.
75# draw.
Your arrows will still blast through animals.
PS: Had my rotator cuff repaired 12 years ago and it sux but fortunately I had a great orthopedic surgeon. I do light weights and shoot about 5 arrows a day in the off season which is April 1 to April 6. Ha ha.
Ike, if you suddenly lost your approximately 30 fps advantage you have over me, everything else being exactly equal, only then would you understand.
That’s not an opinion, its physics. In order for me to get the same ke, momentum, whatever, as you do, I MUST increase my draw weight in order to at least make up some of that 30 fps advantage you have. I honestly don’t know why that’s so hard to understand.
To answer your previous question, I limit my shots to 35yds now due to penetration concerns.
I’m done with the arguing.
You’re only losing about 6 fps shooting an elk at 35 instead of 50 yards. That’s just too small of a percentage to make much of a difference.
What is that? 2% of your FPS? Are you honestly straddling the fence that much?
But let’s assume a 28” DL and an 8” brace height, with the box-shaped Draw Force Curve of a modern bow…. That’s a 20” power stroke, and an inch more or less is a 5% change in the area under the DFC. So bullshooter’s pretty much on point — if the bow clocks 300 fps at 28”, there’s likely to be roughly a 30 fps gap between 27” and 29”. Point for bullshooter.
But if you’re both shooting a 450 grain arrow, that 27” archer is still getting about 285 fps, which is still on par with a recurve right around #100, and that’s producing about twice the KE that I was getting from my #62 R/D longbow, so any penetration issues that you might ever encounter will be entirely of your own making and to suggest that it’s a “handicap” that needs to be offset somehow is just ridiculous. Point for Ike. Might as well say that you’re “undergunned” with a .30-06 because The Other Guy is shooting a .50 BMG. A #35 stickbow with a proper broadhead on it will blow through a whitetail and land in the dirt — at least if you stay off of both shoulders, and there you’re talking about KE in the range of about 2 dozen FPE….
So to a Stickbow shooter, it sounds like a millionaire bitching about the price of Ferraris while we Peons tool around in our Chevettes…..
Im 50 and starting to feel it.
Corax, where in the world are you coming up with your numbers? My 3D bow is a so-called speed bow, set at 58#, and gets less than 285fps shooting a 300 grain arrow! My hunting arrows weigh 145 grains more, so I think it’s safe to assume it’s considerably less than that. Suggesting that I’m getting 275 gps out of my bow with my 445 grain arrow? Now thats what I’d call ridiculous.
75# draw.
I have a buddy who has hunted with a 41 lb longbow for years and has killed bison, elk, truckloads of deer and truckloads of hogs with it.
Many female and older aged hunters hunt with 50 lb compounds (you see them on TV, including Ted Nugent now) and they do fine.
Shoot what is comfortable and take care of those shoulders.
I’m in Rob’s camp. For the exact reason he is. If my compound bow went to 80 pounds, I’d shoot 80 pounds. 85, I’d shoot 85. Because I shoot a shorter draw length. And, lm the kind of guy Ike is harping on. I can’t help it. It’s just the way I am. There’s nothing wrong with it.
Its a personal choice. So is driving a moped.
In my 40's I drew 68#; as I hit mid-50's, I lowered it to 62#. At 60, i dropped to 58 # and stayed there.
I turned 72 last week, my most comfortable draw weight today is 50#.
So we only “can’t argue with Physics” when they back YOUR argument??
I don’t know what numbers you’re whining about, but it’s a piece of cake to plug a few numbers into Stu Miller’s calculator to ballpark the velocity and FPE for a given Stickbow set-up; the biggest challenge is correcting for the fact that the calculator was apparently set up using a shooting machine with a mechanical release, so the velocities are always a touch optimistic for a fingers-shooter. But if you have an arrow weight and a velocity for any compound, Stu’s calculator will tell you pretty nearly what poundage you’d have to be able to pull to equal that with a recurve or LB…
And I keep bringing up the relative power outputs of compounds vs recurves simply to make the point that by comparison to a stickbow, a wimpy-ass compound is a freakin’ Howitzer.
It just amazes me how grossly a lot of “serious” bowhunters underestimate the power of their chosen weapon….
I have no problem with lighter draw weights - when I lived east coast and hunted whitetails I shot 62# because it was a lot easier from weird angles in a tree stand or blind, and in the cold.
For me I prefer more penetration with a bigger head. Also I want to be able to take the first good shot even if it’s a tough angle. I also like to shoot farther distances (I practice to 100) and I like to shoot arrows around 500 gr. And still have flatter trajectory.
All those things are better achieved with higher poundage. There have been numerous animals where I have failed to get a complete pass through (usually quartering shots into offside bone) So I don’t feel like my setup is overkill.
If I bought a new, smooth-drawing compound at, say 50 pounds, what arrow speeds might I be looking at?
You’re seriously asking if there is any “evidence” that repetitive stress/strain can cause damage?
If your form is good, you can get away with a lot more, but the tax bill comes due. I hope I never have to switch to a compound, but there’s likely a #40 Supercurve in my future….
There is neither in our case. Rotator cuff injuries are a repetitive use injury so there's no reason to study archers and there's no money for it because we are a tiny % of the population and no one's going to make millions of dollars figuring out how many pounds over how many years will affect what % of people.
Like anything though, you will have a 1 percentile, a 5 percentile, etc all the way up to a 95th and 99th percentile, so there is going to be that guy that gets a tear from a low weight and a guy that gets no tear from a high weight. Where the 50th percentile is cannot be said without the study, but observation in general from the medical profession is that repetitive archery does indeed lead to shoulder problems in at least some people, but the evidence is anecdotal as far as I've seen.
It has been proven that bench presses also cause rotator cuff problems, especially when not balanced with back strengthening and external shoulder rotation strengthening, and even sometimes when done properly.
Or you could shoot his arrow from a #100 recurve ;)
I would not hesitate to drop down in weight if I needed to.
From the Grains Per Pound formula.
You said 58-59 pound draw. And you said 511 grains.
511 grains / 58.5 pounds = 8.735 grains per pound.
It’s just Math, but it has the distinct advantage of being reality-based. LOL
Stu’s calculator is great for ball-parking spine requirements (and it always spits out an arrow that I can bare-shaft to about 50 yards… but I don’t delude myself into thinking that I get the speeds that it spits out, because it doesn’t correct for DL….
If I was a whitetail guy and I was sitting still for hours in the cold it would be 60, maybe even a little less.
