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Lost some and gained some via each species.
Good luck, Robb
Looks like pretty substantial gains to rifle hunters in tags for elk and antelope with all the cuts in archery seasons.
Antelope: Rifle + 29 Archery. -4
Elk Rifle +397 Archery -155
Gonna make archery tags harder to get and rifle tags easier to draw. A lot of the cuts in archery were in top end units. Guess archery equipment is coming into play for these tough to draw tags…
Throw in the increasing number of crossbow hunters invading the woods during archery season... bowhunting opportunities are way down. Ed F
The ease of getting a handicap crossbow permit has become an absolute joke in AZ, with the sudden increase (over the last several years) of people obtaining permanent crossbow permits. The number of animals being killed with xbows in archery seasons has escalated at an even higher rate than the number of xbow permittees themselves, with higher than 30% of the deer in some OTC archery deer hunts now being taken by xbows. That's why many of the OTC deer hunts are slamming closed in the first week. There are numerous documented cases of abuse, where perfectly healthy kids and adults are using crossbows when they are 100% capable of shooting handheld bows. Permits are being obtained for kids and women just because they can't pull heavier weight bows, even though G&F has set the required poundage limits shockingly low. That's NOT what the law states as a valid reason to get an xbow permit. You MUST have a disability that prevents the ability to draw a bow. Hopefully, the G&F Commission will address this soon before we lose far more archery permits and OTC opportunities due solely to these improperly obtained xbow hunters and their much higher success rates!
And it's not just xbow's many G&F departments are considering but also the effectiveness compounds have become in the last 15yrs, there has been an increase in effective range and these departments are noticing this. You look at all the videos of shot's being made well out past 50yrds in the Western states. Colorado's archery season's have been on the chopping block for the last 10+yrs, either going draw for archery or tags getting cut. Also, the number of hunters getting into hunting/bowhunting has grown.
FWIW, this past September was the first time I have ever been to AZ for an elk hunt and was somewhat surprised at the number of people in the woods during the season. The competition for hunting spots, especially water, was intense at times! Might this be a reason for the tag changes???
The AZ crossbow permit system is hopefully about to experience a major overhaul......standby.
The crossbow issue is one, but have to say that the advances in compound technology have really made differences as well. It certainly doesn’t help when guys post videos of 100+ yard shots at deer for the game departments to use as ammo against separate archery seasons. Most of the archery seasons in the west were set aside when the equipment was a lot different than today…
Let’s not act surprised. Bows are not really bows anymore. Bunch of dipshits are glazing Morgan for taking 100 yard shots and posting online.
Treeline:
There's no data to support that.
Are crossbows legal during the AZ archery season? I know they aren’t in many western states unless the user has a medical condition necessitate the use of one.
AZ currently issues ‘temporary’ crossbow permits for folks who have a hangnail. :). It’s being revamped as we speak.
BOHNTR, the data is the videos posted online. Have had them shoved down our throats in meetings with the Colorado Parks and Wildlife many times when they were pushing to take more away from bowhunters. Would expect that trend to continue and not just in Colorado. Continue to see bowhunting opportunities reduced in Colorado, Arizona, Oregon, etc. Not sure where bowhunting opportunities are increasing in the west or anywhere for that matter. Always seem to be getting cut, even when gun hunting is expanded or at least kept the same….
YouTube videos are not data. Unfortunate that CPW uses them as such.
As a healthcare provider, I can tell you that people bring in BS forms to be filled out all the time: Crossbow waivers, handicap placards, waivers to get their pets in places where pets are not allowed, etc, that they have no business needing. They know it and don't care. They just want a signature to get what they want.
Most of the time, your average healthcare provider will just sign it off begrudgingly because they/we don't have the time nor the patience to say no and in those cases that someone says no, they just go to someone else who will do it. I'm telling you, it's a battle and do you really think we want to fight with people and have verbal altercations with people? We're already stressed to the brink and have to deal with an incredible amount of disrespect and outright aggressiveness.
Just because someone has a signature from a healthcare provider saying they need a crossbow, I promise you it means nothing. I don't give them out unless it's absolutely necessary, but I've seen them given out by colleagues to perfectly able-bodied people, even after I said no.
This year in Wyoming
This year in Wyoming
I think xbows are here to stay and are getting more and more popular.
I hardly see a bow in Wyoming as xbows are legal during bow season dates, but they still say they are bow hunting?
I get a fair share of comments about me being old school with my Recurve as the xgun hunters laugh it off.
Anyways I hope the tag numbers get y'all reading this thread a chance to start planning/daydreaming.
Good luck, Robb
Robb, that photo takes the cake!
Bow guns should only be legal in the gun seasons. Leave archery seasons to trad or compound only.
I was in a CPW season structure meeting when a CPW official stood up and gave a speech about how "we" are hunting with 100 yard weapons now, and the current long archery seasons were never intended to include bows capable of killing at those distances.
Never mind the fact that old time bowhunters launched arrows at long ranges all the time, hoping to get an arrow in an animal. Took Howard Hill three shots to "walk in" his fatal shot on the famous 165 yard elk. They didn't have YouTube and social media to amplify it in those days, nor did they have animal rights zealots with the platform they have now. It's all about perception.
Out west on mule deer, antelope, and elk my compound buddies have shot animals at 95, 84, 78, 74, 66, 62, 55, 52 …not a single shot under 50 yards to speak of
And we wonder why we have cut after cut
It doesn't make sense that they increase the rifle tags if they want to lower the harvest rates. Rifles and ammo have also advanced and can shoot a very long distance now also.
Maybe there's an underlying reason that the general public isn't privy to. Could there be more outfitter demand for the available rifle tags? Maybe more archery hunters are DIY types.
btnbuck, In AZ they distribute tags to weapon types depending on how many people use their first choice to apply for each weapon. If 25% of antelope hunters apply for an archery hunt first choice, they want 25% of the harvest to be with a bow. They recalibrate the tag/weapon allocations regularly based on prior years numbers. People that put first choice rifle and second choice archery, then get drawn and harvest with a bow, are hurting the archery tag numbers, since they are counted toward allocating more rifle tags while taking away from archery allocations when they kill with a bow.
Have archery success rates increased?
Yes, dramatically on many hunts.
Thanks for that breakdown Marv.
Could be your year in 2025 midwest----->
Good luck, Robb
StickFlicker, not doubting you at all, but can you link or point me in the direction of the data that shows the archery success rate increase? Thanks!
Maybe, Robb!
I can’t post the data…..yet, but it has increased significantly. However, the newest data suggests this is due to crossbow use for those who claim a temporary disability. Once the commission has this data next week for their meeting, those numbers will be on their website ( under meetings).
I have never looked at AZ for an Elk tag even though I have hunted most all other western states except MT. Can a guy draw a AZ tag in this first year of trying.
Yes, tracker. It is possible.
Tracker, in most cases 5% of the available tags go to NR's in a random drawing in each hunt. So, there's always a chance, although accruing more bonus points will increase your random chances.
Robb, I've attached a portion of the OTC archery deer harvest for 2008-2016 (the final year that they created the Hunt Arizona data compilation booklet), and I supplemented it with the data thru 2020 that I had to look up on each year's harvest summary report. The reporting since the pandemic got pretty few and far between. You can see a definite trend of increasing bowhunter success, but starting in the last five years is when the Crossbow permit system abuse has absolutely skyrocketed.
In past years the crossbow permits that were issued were mostly temporary, for short-term injuries after a person had drawn an archery tag and became temporarily injured. But now they are almost all issued as permanent permits, even when the so-called injury is temporary. Permanent crossbow permits have increased 1700%, from 79 new permits per year in 2017 to 1,417 just three years later in 2020! And although the data has become more difficult to obtain, I'm sure the situation is NOT improving.
G&F has some internal reports, however, that indicate that although crossbow permit holders make up less than 1% of all bowhunters, a shockingly high percentage of premium draw tags are going to that small (but rapidly increasing) segment of crossbow permit holders. In 2021 more than 11% of all archery deer draw-permits went to hunters holding crossbow permits. This is MORE than went to NR hunters! In 2021 nearly 8.5% of all archery elk permits went to hunters holding crossbow permits. Arizona only started collecting mandatory reporting for their OTC deer hunt two seasons ago, and at least one internal report showed at least 15 hunts where crossbow success exceeded the statewide success percent, by sometimes nearly triple (30%+). This results in hunts closing the first week they open, and it will likely eventually cause those hunts to go to a drawing. Each time an OTC hunt unit leaves the OTC hunt format and goes to a drawing, the same number of OTC permit holders hunt a smaller area of the state, which in turn causes those units to close more quickly, which perpetuates the unit closure to OTC, etc. This is the exact reason that the state started the quota system and mandatory reporting, although abuse of "disabled" crossbow permits is as much of this problem as anything else, in my opinion.
Thank You Marv
Enjoy the Holiday,
Robb
Thanks Marvin... for providing the facts that clearly show that it is an abused mess... Ed F
I would have to see some real data that shows a significant increase in elk harvest success rates for vertical bowhunters. That sounds like a crossbow hunter's logic to me. Yes, there are some misguided bowhunters posting long shots or claiming long shots due to inflated egos (makes them a lesser bowhunter in my eyes), but those are the exceptions in my opinion. Not every compound bowhunter is slinging arrows over 50 yards like the social media heroes and, as has been mentioned, such things should not be considered "data" in any wildlife management decisions. Influencers should have zero influence.
^^^^ This, But Unfortunately the norm is not what's influencing those decision makers, it's what draws their attention the most. Also, CPW here has some in upper management that doesn't like bowhunters/bowhunting at all.
This is my local Sportsmans Warehouse... crossbows outnumber compound bows 2 to 1 on the shelf... in a state where you have to have a medical permit. Two years ago they didn't have a crossbow on the shelf. Ed F
Just an update, the AZ G&F commission meeting was held today in Phoenix. Based on input from the working group, (comprised of G&F personnel, bow shop owners, state archery folks, and P&Y), the G&F Department recommended the complete removal of ALL crossbow permits (even existing) from any/all archery only hunts for all species. The commisssion unanimously approved our recommendation effective January 1, 2026. Huge win for AZ Bowhunters.
Wow! A huge win I’d say. Nice work!
So the still be some forms of permit crossbow hunting in 2025?
That's incredible news, thanks to all who stood up and voiced their opinions!
Wow. First cats in CO and now this in AZ...
It's nice to finally see some wins.
As a past and future AZ NR bowhunter, thanks to those that spent their time working to advocate for us.
Perfect
Thanks for the update
Good luck, Robb
Great news! Thanks for the time and effort, Roy! Huge win for bowhunting in AZ!
The right thing to do... good job to all involved. Ed F
Great work, all involved!! Hopefully this will be picked up in other states and provinces!
There is still the 90 day public comment period, but the department feels that since ALL the Commissioners approved (5-0), the likelihood of any modifications are extremely low. Once the 90 day period is over, it will go to the governor for signing and go into effect January 2026.
A BIG thank you to all that worked on this.
Are they moving the xbows then to the rifle tags? Or revamping the entire xbow permits?
Well done Roy. In 2023 while archery elk hunting in AZ I ran into 3 guys with crossbows. Surprised me to see how fast crossbows took hold in AZ. Policy Reversals are next to impossible so this is a well done turnaround.
This is the wording that passed 5-0.
This is the wording that passed 5-0.
There will still be access to CHAMP permits, which are more difficult to obtain than were normal crossbow permits. They will also continue to be allowed in firearm hunts. I expect some of the abusers to move to the CHAMP permit and continue to abuse the system. It would be great to see them tighten-up the CHAMP requirements further, for example a requirement that the handicap be an upper body injury. Those with bad knees etc. can often easily pull a bow and could hunt from blinds at water (which in AZ are almost always on roads and therefore fairly easily accessible).
Compounds with sights should be next on the list. 80-100 yd shots are a lot more common than most would like to admit. I talk to numerous guys on the late desert hunts that brag about shots that far with a high wounding rate
For sure those Slider sights, man they go out to over 100 yards.
Change is good,
Robb
Thanks for the clarification. I don't hint with a crossbow, but was just curious.
