Blackout while taking hunting shots
Equipment
After 40 years of playing with bows, 30years of big game hunting and a few of denial, I decided to try and fix what I believed was the onset of target panic. I tried the Joel T Iron Mind course with supporting practice. Practiced long range all summer in preparation for my first elk venture. It was a great trip with opportunities but no shots fired. I was shooting foam great before and after. In comes deer season. First sit out I hit my target 7yo at 30 from a blind. Shot felt and looked great. 75yd blood trail to a hard stop. Exhausted recovery efforts and options to no avail. It made me sick. Bow was on and i continued to shoot foam well. Since then, I have had three misses and in scenarios that I should not have. What scares me the most is after the draw cycle started.... to seeing a blinking nock in dirt. Total black out. All three. I hung my bow up out of ethical responsibility (but having multiple tags). In comes gun season....shot my target buck....and also went blackout. Its scary to even say/type this. Has anyone ever had this happen or can recommend a way to stop/mitigate it?
You mean you actually pass out? Are you holding your breath when you start to draw or shoot?
I think he's saying his target panic is so severe he basically remembers nothing after drawing until well after the shots released.
I see it happen in my clients from time to time. Its kinda happen to me a few times but not as intense as you describe. Its got to be the adrenaline. Your body cant handle it or maybe you need to build up a tolerance somehow.
Sorry for the lack of description. I do not pass out. Mentally I have no recollection and must be subconsciously going into autopilot.
I do not feel target panic when shooting foam. I do not have the buckfever of raising heart prior or crazy adrenaline dump following the shot. Dont get me wrong- i excited and its exhilarating but id suspect my reactions are within the realm of "normal"
Practice seems fine. No crazy pin float or wavering. I have blind bail and let down many times. I do both cold shot and post run targets. I have killed hundreds of deer total and many (80-100) with a bow.
Its scaring me....like someone-else takes over the control center.
I don't know. I'd focus hard on the draw and release during practice, and no so much on the target. Then go shoot a doe or small buck. Just go out and hunt, don't have a target buck or a hit list.
"or can recommend a way to stop/mitigate it?"
What you are describing is a memory gap. Tell your doctor and get a brain scan.
How long has this been happening? Has anyone else mentioned to you as forgetful at times?
I think, as Joel teaches, you need to get loud in your head. Talk your way through your shot process to stay present and prevent yourself from going into auto pilot when shooting at big game. If there's any way to get some extra doe tags, try getting as much shooting practice at live animals as you can.
You described how shots with a trad bow go. I often don’t recall drawing. Autopilot. Arrow is gone. The difference is the arrow goes to my spot.
“ If there's any way to get some extra doe tags, try getting as much shooting practice at live animals as you can.“
Words to live by. Getting reps makes a huge difference.
I think a lot of bow hunters deal with this. I know I do. What helped me is to focus on picking a spot and focusing on my pin and let it “hover” the spot. As you are focusing on that I put the finger on the trigger in the middle of my index finger and just squeeze. I don’t use the end of my finger and I’m not waiting to pull the trigger when the pin touches the spot your aiming. Let it hover. Then after the shot I leave my bow had exactly where it was when I shot for a couple seconds after the arrow is released.
Perhaps I have just allowed myself to defer from the process during practice more than I would like to admit, or by not practicing as much during the season the process has come out of loop.
WVM, I started with trad as a kid.....and never paid attention to anything as I was self taught and the outcomes were favorable.
Sound advice on the doe tags and from most of you. Thank you.
F it. Harness that power and know it’s coming. Use it to your advantage. You have super powers.
If you bought into Joel Turner’s course and teachings, then you know he preaches being loud in your own head and talking yourself through the shot process. I would assume you’re not doing this when you’re coming to full draw and letting your unconscious mind take over. One thing I would think may want to try is a hinge release. That way you’re focusing on keeping your release moving and talking yourself through that while staying conscious and present in your shot.
Curious if you have tried a beta blocker. You'd need to talk to your doc to see if he's good with you trying it, but it can help blunt physiologic over-responses to stimuli.
Subconscious is taking over, the conscious side of the brain must be in control from start to finish. When you practice there is no adrenaline.
The Joel Turner process is really excellent
It’s also a great example of how there can be two polar opposite ways of accomplishing something
He obviously counts, allowing your subconscious to take over is the exact opposite of what we should want
The rationale being where we allow our subconscious to take over, we give up control and the ability to choose our actions which actually makes a lot of sense
The opposite that others preach and his kind of been the standard in archery for so long is that we want our actions at the moment of truth to be automatic and done without having to think or remember
To each his own and whatever works for an individual is what they should do
Never blacked out but have shot before I was 100% ready… how I cured it.
I’m a big fan of bale work. 50-60 arrows daily broken down to 7 shots on each aspect of my shot.
7 shots on stance then grip then anchor etc etc. ingraining each aspect into muscle memory. I believe the biggest factor to control target panic is experience on live animals.
Normally the average hunter gets a few shots a year at live animals and because of lack of that experience they get overwhelmed.
Getting out in the summer for groundhogs or carp as well as other in season small game makes a huge difference on your psyche.
I think incorporating bale work and having your entire shot become an unthought physical act with keeping your conscious mind in the mental part of the shot process makes a great combination.
Lastly I wouldn’t get too down on yourself. I mean you can do everything 100% and the animals reaction can put our arrow off course..
I totally get this. I've had multiple moments myself or others I'm hunting with can barely put together what just happened after the shot. I've forgot to use my peep site, forgot which pin to use, all kinds of stupid things. Basically just come undone completely. Here's what's helped me. STOP looking at antlers the second you decide the animal is the one you want. Start looking for your shot. Focusing on that spot behind the shoulder and keying in on that. Don't know if that will help you but it has for me. I cannot look at them in the eye or keep scoring points....it just messes with me. If I focus on where I need my arrow to go, things go better. Don't forget.....it also means you're getting very excited about the opportunity and the culmination of all the work before this is coming together. That's a fun moment but the moment after making a good shot is even better. Focus on that.
I still mess up and made that mistake this year on a small bull. Resulted in a poor shot at close distance that took a week to recover. My head wasn't right in the moment. Wish I could have that back but I'll learn from it.
I usually remember aiming and I almost always see the arrow hit through my sight, but I rarely remember pulling the trigger. I think aiming should be the most deliberate, calculated and conscious part of the process and the rest can become auto pilot. That's where form building in the off season really pays off. When proper form is deeply ingrained, then you can concentrate on the sole job of aiming. The rest should just happen.
I also find that drawing on a lot of animals that you have no intention of killing is a real confidence builder. There is no pressure to get the shot off, so you concentrate on holding that pin where it should be. It also shows you (usually) how much time you really do have to make a shot. Most often way more than you think.
Sounds like 1 bad experience has messed with your head and you’ve got to let that go. It has gotten you out of your shot routine. Like a MLB closing pitcher that blows a save, you got to have a short memory.
Keep practicing your sequence on foam and get back out there and get one in close for a chip shot. Repeat your sequence on live game, kill it, and carry that positive experience with you.
And yes, I have missed and killed some where I couldn’t remember if I was even looking through my peep.
I think @beachtree nailed it.
I Develop a conscious shot process that you use on every shot to combat that blanking out. It helps you keep your wits about you on game- combating Buck fever and TP.
When you shoot arrow after arrow without a shot process you are transferring the shot process to your subconscious....so it literally takes over when you are shooting at game.
Guys, I know we are not doctors here, but, the description gis4 gives is a scary medical condition. As he stated it caused him to " I hung my bow up out of ethical responsibility", certainly not a time to have a weapon in your hands.
Earlier this year I had a lapse of memory that was visible to my wife who was with me. Being a nurse she recognized the seriousness of what happened and bothered me to have a brain scan. Being a wife, in my opinion, she exagerated the incident but it deeply alarmed her. She's my best friend, so I heeded her concern and the test only confirmed I'm aging and that type of event of a few minutes duration may never happen again. The alternative outcome could have been an early warning to a much more devastative condition. Now I know for sure I'm not harboring a clot, tumor or some other physical malfunction that could also suddenly disable me.
gis4, Get it checked out by a doctor. God bless.
https://youtu.be/X6WHBO_Qc-Q?si=ySPnmm5ASFH8e6No
Never go full retard!
I've probably have gone though some of the same. My solution has been to just keep my shots close. I try to set up for shots inside 20 yards when I'm deer hunting. I also believe beechtree is correct. You have to be able to overcome your subconscious. You have to have an ice moment. I shot my second buck this year at just over 30 yards. This is way out of character for me. But since I had an absolutely horrid year in 2017, I had to refocus and rethink my process. It mostly came from me just chilling; or in other words, just not wanting to get the deer that bad. I was obsessed for awhile, but have talked myself off that perch and have done much better since. Hoping that monster doesn't ever come back, but I know it can rear its ugly head any time.
If you're problem is not some sort of medical problem I can help, I'm an expert with the critical second or two when arrow is released. I have dealt with it my entire bow hunting career which is 45 years. The more years you have killing seems to be a common thread with guys I know. I hear this all the time ( I don't know what the hell happened I drew back arrow gone don't even remember shooting) . It's a form of target panic. The conscious part of the brain must be involved in the release of the arrow. The higher the pressure usually big antlers the quicker a guy falls apart. Ask anyone who is a big game guide, hunter shoots great at camp, call a big bull in ,hunter can't even put arrow in vitals at 15 yards
Beachtree is spot on. And X 100 on shooting does, hogs, whatever. Nothing like honing your skills and harvesting. It’s the adrenaline dump that makes the difference and you can’t simulate that shooting targets
Counselor, hypnotist or psychiatrist, similar to what they use to help people stop drinking, smoking or other self-obsessive, abusive behavior??
I thank you all. Some really good advice in here.
The DR stuff is scary chit but also recognize that we underestimate many things in life and middle aged guys find themselves in challenging health scenarios. To be honest, I was sort of hoping someone would bring up a hypnotist.
The programing, loop and process are what is broken or has been reprogrammed (or, God forbid, have processor issues/malfunctions). It may also be noise that keeps the process from smooth execution- like distraction, ADD, etc. Lots on my mind lately and definitely do feel like I my performance is slipping "in the big game" after a couple misses.
Not sure the exact approach....but it may be something like drawing back on deer without shooting. Had done that when i was younger; often shooting those deer or getting busted so quit the practice.
Grateful for your support and suggestions. I will keep you posted.
That's happened to me before ...I think the adrenaline is pumping so much and you're not aware of just how wired up you are. I've experienced target panic also..TP can do some strange things to a person
@gjs4, When you practice with a conscious shot process, it gives you something to fall back on in pressure situations.
Typically most successful guys pick 3-4 key components of their shot- like; Anchor, Alignment, pick a spot, back tension.
The emphasis should be on the parts of your shot you typically zone out on and forget. Everyone is different. For some, it's just a simple- "pick a spot" that brings your conscious mind into full focus.
We can learn from high pressure combat training; In a fight or flight situation [Buckfever is similar] you fall back on your training. Their keys are a little different like 'Expand your peripheral vision' but the concept is the same.
Direct your mind to the key components of making a good shot and focus on them. This shuts out the noise. When it becomes a fast deliberate part of your shot in training- you will find you have better outcomes on animals in the field.
Never thought about any of it.
Almost every professional sports team has a psychologists (or other mental health professional) on the payroll. It's not so the employee feels good about themselves, it's so the program gets the best possible performances from their athletes. No harm in thinking your performance might be helped by a professional too.
"Black out" is a loose term that doesn't exist in medicine. I probably hear this half a dozen times a shift, and us medical professionals take it with a grain of salt in certain demographics such as young people, or folks that like illicit drugs.
A true syncopal episode is partial or total loss of consciousness, and can be caused by a number of medical events. If this were happening, you'd be falling out of your tree.
It sounds like you get excited and everything turns into a blur, which sometimes affects your shots. There are medications that have multiple uses that can help with this. I would suggest propranolol because it slows your heart rate and doesn't have any affects a benzodiazapine would like Ativan.
I will often shoot something, and will forget the steps I took to make the shot, and it will come back to me later.
Wild Bill, I think you’re over exaggerating the situation. Sounds very much like a form of target panic/anxiety caused by the adrenaline spike while at full draw on an animal, not a health concern. This is very common in target archery, let alone bowhunting.
Some good advice here, Beachtree is correct. You are reverting to Fight/Flight/Freeze, to an abnormal amount. Your amygdala is taking over and you are not " staying present" in the moment. Your subconscious is becoming the driver instead of your conscious, and your SC just wants to get the shot over with because it knows it's stressful for you. It's trying to help you, but it's good intentions are not serving you well. Your SC is a constant running program in the background that sees, measures and interprets data inputs of your surroundings and situations and " tries " to help you mitigate stressful and/or traumatic events. The problem is, your SC doesn't care if that buck is 28 yds or 32, or what angle, or if you're bow grip is correct. YOU have to be present for that analysis.
All fixable, find a good Emotion Code/Body Code practitioner and they will have you on the correct track in no time. If you can't find what you are looking for, send me a PM.
“ Direct your mind to the key components of making a good shot and focus on them. This shuts out the noise. When it becomes a fast deliberate part of your shot in training- you will find you have better outcomes on animals in the field.“
So very true Beendare.
Do you think that strapping on a GoPro might help you to recall when this condition sets in, how long it lasts, and if it can be patterned?.....might help when trying to determine the best solution.
I cant really relate to what your saying, other than i have killed lots of game, and after the shot think...did i do this?...did i do that?...it all happened so fast that i can't remember if i ?.... but then i find the animal and its all good. I am a traditional archer so its not a good comparison. But as far as it being a medical condition,? i would certainly think that you would notice problems in a non hunting situation also if it was. I don't know if its any help at all, but as i got older, and after killing more game than i can readily remember, i kinda developed a much more relaxed....its just another deer mentality, but the truth is it actually made me a better hunter, more patient, more relaxed.
If you shoot good on foam, then you can shoot good in the field....it's just that simple.
It seems like your psyching yourself out, Lots of guys use the term "i just went into auto pilot"..or..."i let the shot happen"...especially traditional archers.
Nothing wrong with that as long as "auto pilot"...is simply subconsciously duplicating what you do in the backyard practice sessions.
I hate to say this, but all the advice in the world here, or from anyone else will do you no good until YOU control YOUR mind.
The more you work yourself up over it, the worse it will probably get.
Your shooting good on foam.....you killed plenty of game before....so do you need advice from me?...no...anyone else? ...no
what you need....you already have. Get your confidence back, think yourself through it calmly. And just go do what you already done countless times before.
Sometimes all us advice givers, do nothing more than foul a guy up. You got this. Go enjoy your hunts, and don't forget the pics...Frankly i think you can do it.
Lots of live targets. Wounding sux. Resolve to watch em fall (or don’t shoot). Good luck.
Just getting back from a hunt where I had a blackout too. 70-80 % of my training and 3 D shooting is done with longbow where I am not that bad of a shot. Last sunday then was shooting all morning my compound at always 68 yards. Hitting almost always size of a plate. Then went hunting. Shot a coues size deer at 40 yards quatering away directly where I was aiming. Don't remember anything about the shot sequence. Automatic as a machine. I practice usually 3 times a week. Not sure if that is the "problem"
I can relate to most of this thread regarding tp……it has paralyzed me to where I do not have the drive to go sit in a tree right now for fear of wounding an animal……I thought I worked through it pretty good last year….im fine target shooting but become unhinged even on a doe. I completely missed on my last shot at 15 yards which I was grateful that I did not wound the animal but for my confidence level it’s in the dumps!
Hunter Amnesia: What It Is, and How You Can Avoid It
At one time or another, we’ve all blacked out when that big buck, bull, or bear steps out, but focusing on a shooting process will help you make better decisions, more accurate shots, and fewer silly mistakes...
Funny, that ^ article came out yesterday.....Bowsite is giving these Writers topics to write about.....he should have credited the Site. grin
