The Cheapening of the outdoor sports
General Topic
I started this in the Wisconsin forum, thought it would get some of you excited on the national forum, enjoy!!!
Generally I have been out ice fishing by now. Time, trying to get/see A deer, loss of desire? With all the new tech shit I see, the hunting/fishing made easy crap, just add water and presto a fish crap forward facing sonar, xguns for all so the gun only people can gun hunt during better times crap, I have lost desire for all of it. Just think, a person like me that lived breathed thought only of these outdoor passions loosing desire. But, it sickens me of how cheap it has been made. Kind of like taking my pedal bike to a motorcycle race and competing. It used to be something of an honor to learn to hunt and take deer with a bow and arrow, where/how/when to catch all different types of fish. Now that is all thrown away, a slap in the face, to compete in todays world you are supposed to join them and use this new technology because the resources cannot handle it and to catch/kill anything you will need to use this shit to eak out what is left. It sickens me to no end what has happened to this way of life. Work, effort, skill, desire? F' that. Cheat, easy, fast, dumb is the new way of the world. I'm waiting to see someone using a forward facing fish machine in the pristine world of steelhead fishing. Shooting through pools making sure fish are there. Why not, musky fishing is not hours of fishing it is guaranteed chance at throwing at found fish till they take. I will eventually get out onto the ice, hopefully most of the wannabe's that got there new Wamo fishing games for Xmas are bored and would rather sit home get fat and watch football. Sucks to see the way it is now when you have lived through the good times.
1st world problems.
I’m so thankful to open my eyes every morning in hopes of spending another day with my family and another day in God’s creation. I’ll continue to do so until I take my last breath and nothing that happens around me can take that joy away from me.
I agree, hunting and fishing has been dumbed down to meet the needs of todays participants.
Sounds like you are too worried about everyone else and how they do it. Go do you, your way. Why let some else doing it differently get you such a tizzy.
No doubt when you were the young one, the “old guys” of then were complaining about how you were doing it to.
Hunting and fishing started being "dumbed down" when they became sports. The only competition that exists is between you and what you pursue, and how you choose to do that is strictly a personal choice. Bowfreak nailed the big picture.
That's a you problem buddy. Hope you can get your attitude adjusted to be able to enjoy life. How someone else fishes shouldn't bother you and you're likely only being bothered because of the internet. I highly doubt this stuff has bothered you so much in actual person lived experiences, most likely just internet learning..soooooo pot meet kettle.
Does the forward facing sonar ruin your ice fishing so much? How if you haven't been out there yet? You are seeing stuff on the internet and letting it get to you. I have forward facing sonar and I ice fished before it, and now I ice fish with it. Ice fishing with it is 25x more fun and it's not even close. My dad came with me and used it for a couple days and ordered one same day. His just arrived a couple days ago. You can choose to be grumpy about it or have your own fun. My dad (65 years old) decided to have his own fun. You can too.
Some but not all behave this way. I shot recurve leagues at a Technohunt machine. So what if I didn't win going against the folks with high tech $2,000 bows and all the accessories. When I shoot compound it's a 20+ year old model.
Folks still use basic tip-up and spears around here for ice fishing. I like use of the camera to record it and see a lot of fish I don't spear. Just like taking a camera with hunting to video deer I don't shoot.
You can use all the technology you want to bowhunt but if you go stomping into the woods at prime movement time, all scented up, with the best shooting bow- still are not going to see much. Real life is rarely like all the hunting videos out there.
Same thing if you come blasting into a fishing spot with a rooster tail behind the boat shoot your scanner all around, make a few casts and leave. Then I slide back out of the cover in my Kayak (plastic molded with carbon fiber accessories) to see and catch fish right next to my rig. Either that or I can get into the smaller lakes, streams, etc. where all the Techno folks can't. Still lots of casting, reading the water and sight fishing. Again, real life is rarely like all the fishing videos out there. Don't be a dummy posting all kinds of pics and info about your favorite spots on the internet then wonder why a crowd shows up.
Just my thoughts for today, finally got low temps and ice. 10-12 degrees keeps a lot of the techys off of the ice.
How others do it has zero influence on my enjoyment doing what I love to do. You, and you alone, determines how “easy” or “hard” you want to make it.
I ice fish and use a simple Helix 5 fish finder. I see the guys running around the lake with the livescope's, forward facing sonars, etc. Drilling, fishing for five minutes, then moving again. Sometimes they don't even drop a line, drill, drop transducer/camera, move. They are also playing with their go-pro and sometimes even a drone. They seem to spend more time fucking with their toys than fishing. Not how I want to do it, I find them kinda comical. They don't affect my mood or experience at all.
Sounds like someone is butt hurt that they can't afford forward facing sonar.
You guys are missing all of it. I don't give a rats ass about how others do things. But, when it affects the resource we all are competing for/using, I do give a rats ass. Do all of you think these resources are endless? You had better get your mind out of the past thoughts on this. The public resources cannot keep up with the advancing technologies. Take your blinders off and think about it. Fishery managers nationwide are worried about the fact that the lakes cannot sustain fish populations required because of the new Forward Facing Sonar and the speed at which they are used. In 43 years I have never had issues finding, seeing and taking deer on public forests in WI. This year Archery, Rifle, Muzzle Loader and back to Archery so far I have seen 3 deer from stand and 5 others while scouting and bird hunting in 5 WI county's. That is pitiful. Mostly wolves, but new easy button advancements are not helping.
Peco, nope no issue at all affording one, just won’t buy one. Also, no issues finding and catching fish without. I do however limit my take dramatically knowing the fragile resource now days cannot handle it.
Understand where Live2Hunt is coming from, I had to come to awaking awhile back that technology in hunting/fishing will always take the lead with the masses, human nature to take the easiest road to achieve their gaol. I had to just let go and set my own standards on how I hunt or fish and just ignore the others, it is a personal sport and really do not care, for example, witness a young gent that shot a big buck with his xbow possible over bait, I didn't say a word to him and just walk on. Funny how people would shame ball players for using performance enhancement dope to achieve further goals in sports but they use the latest easiest method to get a quick kill. Enjoy the hunt.
Habitat loss is a far greater threat to hunting and fishing than is resource loss due to the evolution of technology.
Technology will continue to advance, and people will continue to use those advancements. People in 1720 or 1892 or 1924 etc would have LOVED to have the tools we have today. Not all - there are always pure traditionalists... But most. The evidence for that is that advances occur, and people adopt them.
Sometimes it seems crazy, and I'm not a fan. But overall, tech advancement is good.
Some will just fade away, like the acorn cruncher from Hunter Specialties and the deer view mirror. But some will likely continue to improve—like pop-up blinds, better clothes, stands, bows, etc.
Some people will choose the latest greatest, some wont. And that's ok. Creates the variety that is the spice of life!
Industries, sports, hobbies etc. advancing through technology has been around for centuries. We as humans typically don’t like change but it’s inevitable. Your concerns of sustainability may be valid but just go out enjoy and you do you. Life is short!
Habitat loss is greater than easy faster way to take? I don’t think so. I suggest you look into this more.
It is what it is. You do it the way you want and I'll do it the way I want.
I like sitting comfortably in a chair in my sons heated insulated fishing hut, ice fishing using his high tech sonar and screen that clearly shows what's going on at my bait. That's WAAAY more fun than freezing my ass sitting on a five gallon bucket in the open with wind blowing, and without a clue what's' going on below. If I want to step out and punch a couple holes with the power auger when the sun comes out and the wind dies off, without a clue what's below, I do so. Either way is fine. But for a fact I like the screen, the power auger, and the comfort of a heated hut a WHOLE lot better.
" I suggest you look into this more" I've been looking into this since I started working in the sporting goods world in 1987.
I remember when they wanted to outlaw rubber worms and deer never looked up.If it's causing that much angst you should stop
The population of earth has nearly tripled post WWII. So yeah you better believe the 'resource' is being depleted.
The population in this beautiful city has gone from 75K in 1962, to 559K in 2024. Every place I recreated in the 1960s is jam packed with people now. That sucks but what can I do about it? Nothing. I just accept it and enjoy what I can.
Hunters have already lost opportunity, especially in the west, and Alaska. Obtaining hunting licenses for a given species is no longer an annual event, not even semi annual. In many species, fish included, bag limits have been decreased, slotted, etc. I firmly believe resources are being pressured by technology.
Was thinking about this very subject this past weekend while muzzleloading with an inline muzzleloader in a light rain - thought about how glad I was for the technology I was able to use and be out in the woods.
I came to the conclusion that we all have different levels of what we view as “acceptable” when it comes to advancing technology. Stick bow, round wheeled bows, cam bows, x-bows. All advances in technology and at some point most people draw a line that they personally don’t want to cross. That line is in a different place for all of us. And yes, it can be frustrating, but I also enjoy pulling up on-x on my phone and e-scouting even while I am in the field.
I do miss the days (not too many years ago) when my sons and I could drive to Idaho 2nd week of Sept, roll into a Wal-Mart and buy our “A” elk tags over the counter, mid season and go hunt. I miss those days and they are forever gone.
With that said, I have the choice to mope around or to adapt. Maybe it will push me into enjoying large predator hunting instead, where preference points or random luck in the draw aren’t needed and I can simply go buy a tag and hunt.
I miss the “good old days” as well, but they aren’t coming back, so it’s up to me to adapt and deal with it.
In some areas predators are already on a quota system, mountain lions are one example. Wolves are another.
I worry about our future but not in the same way. I don't care if someone takes their limit of fish using flies or garden worms as long as they are content stopping at their limit. Most of the fly fishermen release most of the fish they take but that my point. I fear most a general population that doesn't care if there are woods and waters to enjoy. I have seen a generation that protested when a farmer had trees harvested in HIS woodlot. I also see folks that Spend time in the woods when everyone should stay out. They erode the land and displace wildlife . I am thankful that enough of us fish ,trap, and hunt to want to protect our habitat. I love taking my grandchildren fishing even though I could take more fish alone. The day will come when they hunt with me. I expect to see less game but it is worth it if they can teach their children to enjoy and protect nature.
Let other do what they want, turn your back and do what you want not worrying about others, tech is good in all ways accept it, deal with it, if a runaway freight train is barreling towards the city let it go and clean up after. Can’t believe this mentality. I would rather go out and shock the lake for fish, I would like to hunt deer with a rifle or buckshot 24/7 365, I unbraced the remote mounted rifle and hunt from home, No limits no stop, just turn your back and mind your own business. I am glad there is a growing concern with others out there who are speaking up.
I used to let some of it get to me, now I just do things how I do them. I didn’t even hang a trail camera after the first few sits in November. I usually put one by my set to see what’s around, but I had more fun not knowing. Don’t blame anyone for putting them out, but it was ruining the experience for me. But it was all P/L hunting, so no real need to keep track of specific deer. I can usually get a good read on what’s around from sign and sightings while in the stand. I’ve gotten away from all the latest and greatest arrow builds also. Just keeping it simple, doesn’t matter what everyone else is doing, do you. I’m still hooked on new bows that come out and a sucker for the latest release or tree stand though:)
You feed your own outlook. I’m bothered by crossbows in bow season. But, I’m also smart enough to realize it’s going to take crossbow hunters to keep hunting relevant. It’s a double edge sword for sure. Like everything else you posted about.
Life is short. Enjoy it while you can
The average "Ma and Pa Kettle" will not be using forward facing sonar. The only ones that do fish competitively for money (ether tournament or guiding).
It won't be long to where game and fish agencies restrict their use significantly to none at all.
If you know how to use it and what you're looking at, side imaging works really well.
Live2hunt your the one missing the point. You start this thread saying you have lost all desire for hunting and fishing due to tech. I think many of question whether much of this tech is good or bad.
For example I live in Colorado and this state is wrong much of the time. However we have done better than most with keep a lot of tech out of bowhunting. No x-guns, no lighted sights, no electric range-finding sites for example. The way I see it get involved somewhere you can make a difference, big or small. When you have done what you can enjoying doing it your way. Throwing a hissy fit and just staying home is no answer. Practices catch and release, kill below your limit if you think the resource is strained.
While I don’t love a lot of tech, if our numbers Dwindle too low the anti numbers are going to win taking away all hunting. If the next generation likes some tech in their hunting and fishing, that probably better than them not continuing the tradition at all.
LOL, I bought a new boat a few years ago. Came with 2 helex 7's, one with SI. You want to know what I use on them? The lake map. That is it. The SI may as well not be on the one. People that cannot afford a decent boat or vehicle are buying the FFS units. In Mississippi they went from 10% usage to 70% usage in a couple years. I do enjoy what I do and how I do, but I also care for the future and what is available.
All desire? no. My loss of desire went from hunting/fishing 7 days a week if possible to 2 or 3 days a week. Due to tech? Part of it as far as allowing a run away freight train go, yes. But, when the deer population on public lands are so minimal that the people that hunt them quit in droves because they see 0 deer, or the fish limits are reduced to 0 because of over harvest (It is that way on walleye in some WI lakes from the tribal spearing), they will quit. So, do the anti-hunters have to do anything? No, we will do it to ourselves. I do limit my take of fish, deer I have to because I see so few that it is mainly stump shooting with my recurve and hiking/sitting in the woods. If I do my part and 100 others don't care what is my part going to do?
Tech has its boundaries. Self imposed. People that do and use the things that bother you are doing so on a limited time basis.
Just like crossbows, I don’t think it’s sustainable. Because the experience it offers draws from the over all experience. Killing a deer with a crossbow isn’t nearly as cool as with a bow. It’s self limiting.
I understand your desire to show those in the unknown, the way they’d likely appreciate better. However it’s going to take self awareness on their part to throw everything to the side and do it the hard way. It’s a losing battle.
So is hunter’s regulating other hunters on what to use during their hunt process
I don't understand why you think technology resulted in you only seeing 3 deer in Wisconsin this year. Seems like that falls back to the basics: skill and game population. The population depends on habitat, disease, and game management (adjusting harvest through number of permits issued). Since you had archery, muzzleloader and rifle permits this year, it seems like you are more than willing to participate in the overharvesting that must have been occurring. Maybe instead you should be advocating for your state to reduce permits issued to rebuild the population. That makes more sense than blaming it on hunting with remote mounted rifles from home which is some sort of hysterical hallucination since it isn't legal and isn't happening in Wisconsin.
Single biggest thing that changed the game in hunting is the cell cam. Bar none. Find a deer. See deer on camera. Immediately go hunt that stand. Have great chance to kill deer. No more hours on stand. No more guessing about which deer to shoot. And now you have better, more efficient weapons that improve your accuracy to help kill that animal. It’s just the way it is.
R E L A X.
it will be OK.
Never said I blame it all on tech for deer. In WI, number 1 is unregulated wolf populations stopping herd regrowth. The tech comes in for all as there seems to be no stopping. Let’s let xguns in for all during the whole what was the archery season. That will make it easier to kill off the reminder of the herd the wolves do not get or the tribal 24/7 allowed hunts. Remote mounted rifles are illegal which they were shot down immediately after invention as they should be. But, there is nothing stopping the train, and it could be pushed through like the xguns. I’m saying there needs to be a line that says enough. What I’ve seen lately, we are going beyond and hunting and fishing will be impacted.
We should enjoy today because it will seem primitive in 10 years
Name one place in the world or society where technology has not advanced and is not continuing to advance
Of course, we’ll never take a step back. The question is how fast are the inevitable steps forward happening.
Enjoy a relatively technology, free world and hunting environment today because it won’t be so tomorrow
Comparison is the thief of joy...
OP is so negative he’s going to get backward facing sonar so he can see all the ones that got away.
Didn't know the sky was falling thanks for the update.
LOL, you don't think this discussion is happening on fish and game agency levels? Better think again. By your comments your mentality shows, you would be the first out if these items were stopped and would cry like a kid in a candy store told he cant have all of it.
Not to dispute what others have stated. I started hunting in Ohio in 1952, before we had a TV, no smart phones, no Cell phones, on Onx mapping, dial up phones, the World Wide Web was only a dream, no computers, no compound bow, no trail cameras, etc. In spite of all of the advancements in the hunting sports, I learned my hunting craft well back then and all of that learned craft has made me the successful hunter I am today. I believe I would be the same successful hunter even without the advancements because I learned how to do it the old fashion way.
No doubt, the World keeps going around. Way back in the day, men would throw rocks at each other, then the spear, then the arrow, then a ball of lead, and then the Atomic Bomb. My best, Paul
Paul you stated that very well. I believe that is exactly what the OP is stating. Not many if any are learning the craft, taking the time to “do it right”. It’s all immediate gratification in any way possible to get the desired result. Failure isn’t accepted or learned from. Thanks.
Blood and Paul, yes, a lot of what Hunting is or was is gone from the new generation and that is something to me is a big loss to the sport. I shoot a recurve and do not care if others use a compound at all. You still draw and shoot with form to make the shot. The prep and the anticipation or gain from work is gone for those who choose not to use a bow to hunt archery. The thought, effort, learning to find and catch fish is made into a game of ease and numbers. I would not care at all of what these people consider hunting or fishing. But, when it starts affecting game populations or the fish populations, I care. That is what this is about.
I was lucky this year. Two states 3 eights. 2 by tracking. The OP is spot on Cell cams "really" what a joke. TV hunting a joke, I could go on, but what for. The OP knows what is coming, and I agree.
Most of what the OP discussed is already here. Read some game laws from 30 years ago, vs today. Not simply eastern whitetail, look at all species.
I hate to break the bad news to you doubters but Live2Hunt is spot on. Here in Michigan deer license sales have been on a decline for several years now. It is because the NRC/DNR in their quest to bring new people to the sport, has dumbed down deer hunting to the lowest common denominator.
Doesn’t dumbing down normally increase the population of participants. Raising the bar normally reduces the volume of eligible participants.
That’s the whole rationale for reducing standards and barriers to entry
How would dumbing down hunting be responsible for declining license sales? And since sales of license in Michigan have been declining since 1995 when did the dumbing down become the cause?
Quite a few guys now days hunt high fence.
I should say " hunt ", not really hunting.
Tech can't be stopped but all the best parts of bowhunting and bow seasons are made possible due to bowhunting being harder to get in to and harder to be successful at.
Its not wrong to be concerned as we race to chip away at the foundation bowhunting is built on.
No, a guy sitting a mile away with a crossbow isn't likely changing how my hunt goes. But, when things like sheep and goat tags go from 2-3 per lifetime to being lucky to draw 1 ever, that is a big difference.
I am well behind the times with what I prefer to bow hunt with. For me, it adds a lot of satisfaction. Especially as opportunites shrink. I can squeeze a lot of fun, challenge and satisfaction out of trying to fill a doe tag or take a cow elk. Keeping people hunting is important but the tech has a cost.
What and how people hunt is their business and nobody else’s if it’s done legally. If you don’t agree with that it’s ok. Just don’t tell me how to hunt, fish, or anything else. Mind your own business and you won’t be minding mine. (Hank Williams Sr.)
Yea ok Dry,alot of what I see on this site is BS
Legally, lol there we go with that again. What about ethically, fair chase and within limitations to conserve? Or you must be take take take?
What is legal changes by state, county, hunting units, year, etc etc. What is legal has become a political moving target. Legal has nothing to do with ethics. And, I personally do not see where legal these days has much to do with sound game management. Sometimes yes, other times no.
I hunted a group of three old 5-7 year old survivor bucks for three years. They knew how to survive amongst scattered housing developments. Although I had multiple daylight pictures of them all but I only laid eyes on the oldest one once. I saw one of the others only once last year & killed him. Last year was the first year crossbows were legal for everyone. These bucks had survived another slug season as well as muzzleloader again. Both were killed by X-bows by the end of the season. I rooted for those guys even as I tried to kill them. Miss having the three amigos as I called them around.
What, no one knew how to shoot a bow? I don’t get it. I can go out in my back yard with my bow and shoot one legally, but I don’t. Why? Not hunting. Ethics? Do not want a deer running through yards leaving a blood trail. Why? I care for the animal and that I am a hunter and do not want to blemish that.
Easy L2H, this type of thing will get you on “The List”.
The guys who think this type of question still pertains to weapon selection are stuck in a time many moons ago. There are companies working on optics that locate game, not just night vision technology, which talk to your mobile device to detail the perfect stalk based on weather/thermals/terrain/sun angle/you name it. They’ll be able to tell you the exact B&C/P&Y score before you start the stalk. It’ll know when the critter moves and will adjust your course accordingly. All you’ll need to do is raise up and make the shot. And whether you think that type of technology will be legal or not, there’ll be folks on the mountainside using it for sure. Also going to be live high definition satellite surveillance. If states couldn’t stop cell cams they won’t be able to stop live imaging of private property with technology that’ll be able to see and track game.
All the “worry about yourself” guys will find their line eventually. And many of them are already bitching about how hard it is to draw tags. They just don’t want to fall out of line here on the Bowsite.
I agree, no more complaining about ability to draw tags.
So for the sake of argument where should the line be drawn, and who decides what does or doesn't make the cut?
The three Amigos found refuge amongst the houses when the pressure was on. They roamed around a couple sections of big woods & swamps & knew how to survive. This pic is from 2021. My point is as soon as crossbows “cheapened” the season as the OP called it they didn’t stand a chance.
I think the OP's concerns are much, much greater than the three Amigos.
Just an example. All the other things add up in the big picture. I’ve “cheapened” by using trail cameras myself but they’ve never killed me a deer. I can think of many I would have probably killed with a crossbow in my hands.
I’ll say it again. It’s about immediate gratification. Get it done no matter how you do it. That’s the world of hunting now for a lot of people. I won’t talk about legal or not…..but it’s is easy to do it now for anyone of any skill - as our technology and weaponry has taken the guesswork out of woodsman ship. And the pride of HOW you get it done.
I think forward facing sonar is the crossbow of the fishing world. For example Muskie are very susceptible to barotrauma. Guys hover over these deep/warm water summer muskies & force feed them until they bite for that hero shot. They are killing a good percentage of them. Same with walleyes. Have you ever been out on a good summer walleye bite & seen the number of floating dead fish? Warm deep water & an extended hero shot are a death sentence for these fish. Perfectly legal but highly unethical. This hooking mortality is built into limits & robs from everyone next year when take is slashed. Just a couple more examples in the big picture.
Man I’m thankful to not have your outlook, sounds exhausting.
I do hope all those adamant about the demise are doing their part via local clubs, state organizations, youth mentoring, public comment periods to state F&G about regulation changes… to prevent it rather than just bitching online about how the internet ruined hunting. Oh the irony.
What a gaydar got to do with your ice hole anyways?
"I’ll say it again. It’s about immediate gratification."
I think it's also about narrowing the very meaning of 'gratification'. Time was, 'bow hunters' were *archers* who fought to be allowed to use their gear inthe woods *at all*. Deer were scarce, arrowing one was rare. And there were no 'pro shops.'
'Gratification' came from the *process*, not just meat on the ground or horns on the wall. Building arrows, maybe even bows, quivers etc. Long practice sessions, home-made targets, the rare 3-D shoot. Try selling that today. (And sales $$ is where it's at, to be real.)
Today that form of process-gratification is pretty much an enclave called 'traditional'.
(You could draw parallels to tie-your-own-flies, or 'people who still use cameras instead of i-phones'.)
'Results' or 'process'? I don't mean to that as an either-or. But does process form an important *part* of hunting for you? I see too many for whom process amounts to drudgery.
"How others do it has zero influence on my enjoyment doing what I love to do. You, and you alone, determines how “easy” or “hard” you want to make it."
In my opinion, this needs to be repeated about ever 30 posts or so.
There should be no complaints about the increasing of limited draws, quota hunts, increased fees, and decreased non resident tags. All these came about to protect the resources, either directly or indirectly.
fdp when do we draw a line in the sand? 10 years ago when the Xgun got voted down by the public here in WI but the lobbyists got it shoved through behind our backs. This past year when the public overwhelmingly by vote supported banning the use of forward facing sonar. Like the presidential vote in Nov, people are fed up with WOKE, Liberal, easy, let them be who, what, they want.
Basil, you are spot on with Musky and other fish. There are more issues like chasing basin crappie in the winter that are dead when they pull them up from deep water, over harvest by all using them to keep on top of fish. It is a joke, may as well call it a video game.
Ricky, figured you would show up at some point bringing your non-productive liberal points to the table. Repeat this over and over and over, I don't give a rats ass on how you hunt fish either, but when it creates problems with the resource, I care and limits and laws need to be made to protect these resources. Do you need the 2x4 to the head to get it through? Do your own research on FFS and see what the fisheries biologists are concerned about.
Wow, Ricky is a 'liberal' now? What the f* are y'all doing over in the non-typ playpen? >;-)
In many cases fishing has already depleted the wild resources, that is why hatcheries are so important. Much of fishing is simply put and take, the high fence of the hunting world. Much of what the OP is discussing is already here. Aldo saw it coming, his writings on conservation prove it.
Live2Hunt, some folks don’t understand the economic principle of common resources. I agree with you. The more advantages these people have, the less successful folks doing it without these advantages due to a disproportionate depletion of resources by those that do. Your bicycle in a motorcycle race analogy was spot on.
KB is correct about “the list”… any criticism of how things are going, even if they’re objectively bad for the resource as a whole, will get you trampled by the “one team one fight” “any hunter is a good hunter” anti-critique fantasyland guys.
Live2...that was a very impressive non-answer.....
fdp, ok how about “NOW” can you read/see that for your answer. Not sure what you’re looking for. I don’t have time to write all the research done on these subjects, you go ahead and do that yourself. Dana, you and Ricky only get off on saying the opposite of what the thread is about. Then you 2 go back and forth with really nothing. This thread is about saying enough, kind of like the presidential election.
Live2...I simply asked who you would have make the decision on what is and isn't allowable and what from your perspective should or should not be allowed. Seems based on your position you would have most of this thought out? Should you be able to use a bow that has fiberglass in the limbs, broadheads that have replaceable blades, rifles that use a cartridge that burns smokeless powder, carry a cell phone while you hunt, I mean this does sound silly but it is EXACTLY the type of things you are talking about.
John, I get that you're concerned about the 'impact on the resource' but in some places that's not 'the issue'. It's 'reduced hunter participation', and the 'resource' - deer and bears - are *over* populating. The key here is 'we need more hunters killing more critters.' And I hate to admit it but that over-rides my _personal_ disdain of high tech 'hunting'. We've held the line against x-bows, but as the hunting population ages out, more and more guys 'qualify' for the medical permit. I foresee the state just saying 'screw it, use whatever'.
Regional perspectives vary.
Live2hunt you did start the thread about how this stuff affects your hunt which made it sound "direct." I get what you mean about indirect in that eventually you believe the resource will get depleted which then affects your hunt. The problem is that I don't think anyone thinks that has happened "yet" but yet your hunting/fishing has already been cut in half, so it seems the average user thinks it has directly affected you more than you let on.
That being said, your concern about population dynamics is valid, and as far as I am aware every state/province game agency is aware of the changes and monitoring populations accordingly. Are they doing a perfect job? Likely not, and that is where the population can help them better it by giving them insights into what they are seeing. There are two ways to adjust take, firstly by rules and secondly by self regulation. Do your part in helping agencies adjust rules.
Beyond that, the average user of the outdoors can self-regulate. In that department, I think the world is in a pretty good place. When it comes to fish, there is way more catch and release than EVER, and WAY MORE debates about how to keep fish healthy than I've ever heard of. To be frank, the generations before me basically crushed a fish's skull the second it left the water, size be damned. Most "FFS types" are super concerned about fish health and hardly keep anything. It's honestly the 5 gallon pail types that do the most damage to fish populations, as they don't give a rip about rules, and keep everything.
As it pertains to hunting, I've seen more debates about ethics on here than you ever would have seen 40 years ago when guys just stuck stuff and hoped to catch up to it later. Nowadays we've got archery hunters refusing to take a frontal shot which I happen to think is perfectly OK, but whatever to each his own. Self regulation seems to be going the right direction. As it pertains to whitetails you see people realizing that public hunting quality is in decline, and starting to manage private grounds specifically for the betterment of wildlife. Public lands will also benefit as people better their private ground. 40 years ago, maybe there wasn't a need for "habitat cuts" for deer, but now you see people cutting timber, planting bedding, food etc all for the betterment of wildlife and not just deer. All to say it may not be as bad as you think it is.
I hear that all the time that “we need to recruit more hunters/fishermen”. Every where I go is far more crowded than years ago. Was absolutely insane during the Covid years. When was the last time you heard anyone say “my outing would have been more enjoyable if only there were more people”?
The public lands I hunt in WI are hurting bad for deer populations and my understanding is MN is in bad shape also. We have big issues with wolves and adding new easy tech/weapons only adds to it. The big reason we loose hunters is they have no access to hunt where there are deer to hunt. 1000's of acres of Fed, state, county forests that are depleted of deer. All the cutting they are doing now helps with food and cover, but that does not matter if there are no deer left to hunt. As far as recruitment of new hunters, sorry, but the easier you make things the faster you loose the luster for doing it. So to me the worst thing you can do is put a kid in a blind by a corn pile with an xgun to just kill an animal does nothing but show him how easy it is. Teaching the skill required to learn and animal and there habits and how to hunt ingrains more desire to keep going.
Yes, the older generation killed all fish that they could, but there were fewer of them that could catch fish and the equipment was very basic. Can you say that now? No. With all the advancements to make it easy as possible for all who have the new tech, the fishery's are taking a hit. This is well documented and worrisome to all states fishery biologists. I can do my part, which I do because I realize the fragility of the resources now, but when there are so many now that can go out and stay on fish and catch fish, the overharvest out ways the releasing of fish.
For fishing, fine we cannot ban the use of FFS, but we can say no fish may be kept if one is in your possession. This would help but the other issue with FFS is pulling fish out of deep water during ice fishing. They are dead or about to be after release. The FFS units make it easy for people to target these deep basin fish and keep on them making it deadly for fish.
For hunting, I honestly don't care what is done on private lands. These are more like a farm to kill deer and if they want to kill them 24/7 365 with a rifle, have at it. But, the large public forests need to be limited to the advancing easy button technology. If you don't want to bowhunt and use an xgun, they need to be limited in time of use. Here in WI they follow the archery season which goes from mid Sept - Jan. This should be October only or less and the gun seasons to get them out of the first two weeks and the rut so the kill is not as high. And yes to all that think there is no difference between an xgun and a compound, one is operated like a gun and one is operated by a bow.
Basil x2. The recruitment benefitting hunting argument these folks give is laughable. Their excuse is that they want to double the number of hunters to maybe get a 1% boost in the voting booth, but in reality the hunting industry who indoctrinated them with this logic just wants to sell more products and get more views and the best way to sell more products is to increase the size of their target audience which is hunters. The hunting “industry” profits from an inorganic and unsustainable boost in hunter numbers while hunters are negatively impacted in every way. The industry folks aren’t negatively impacted since they hunt cushy private ranches anyway due to hunters padding their pockets with millions. Sadly, they’ve tricked many “common men” into falling for the recruitment gimmick and supporting it as well (as seen in this thread) without the common men realizing that they’re only hurting their chances at not only success on the mountain, but the opportunity to even get on the mountain to begin with (point creep).
I’m glad to see people speak up in this thread about it since previously it seemed like it was very few of us that would call this out. Hunters are financially supporting their own downfall and it’s so sad to see.
We do not need more hunters, we need less. Lots of demand already for available tags and space, simply review posts all over this forum. Hunter recruitment is a fallacy, promoted by manufacturers.
Change (progress?) is an interesting thing. If you are against a small change, you’re labelled as small minded in some way, after all - how does it affect YOU?
So most of us, being polite and reasonable people, sit by quietly and accept. Problem is that these changes are incremental, eventually adding up to a huge change - this is exactly how we got to the crazy reality of men dominating women’s sports.
If the technology existed that you could find, monitor and kill a big buck from your phone, would you be in favour??
So there’s the challenge with this whole technology argument. Are you willing to draw a line? If so, where?
I always took pride on being known as the guy who can catch a fish in a mud puddle. I would be lying if I told you it didn't hurt a little that a rookie can be on the same level just by using a FFS. I own one and it's a totally different experience. I would favor a reduced bag limit if you are using one just like a lot of us favor a reduced season for crossbows. I think that is a good middle ground. That way you can use the tech but still have the allure of a more traditional experience and it helps protect the resource. Its the same reason I leave the FFS at home on occasion or have started using a recurve. I will also say this, so many of the FFS guys release more fish in a day than the old timers I know did in their entire lifetime. It's not always about catching a limit.
The other factor with change, is that no matter the magnitude, it's happening, whether you like it or not. So be miserable or figure out how to adapt. Doesnt mean every change sticks for the long haul, nor that everyone thinks those changes are positive. But they are going to happen.
Wish I'd saved it. Saw a cool bit of writing the other day comparing roughly what was expected at a given time with what happened, and repeated that in 10 year increments. It was insane looking at the change and progression in things from say 1940-2010 (when this list ended). Things you could never have even imagined just keep happening every 10 years, be they little like tools you use to work or cook or something... Out to massive geopolitical shifts.
That's a whole different realm than whether FFS is destroying fishing.
Just saying that changes are going to occur, and whether we like those changes or not, they are happening. So the magic is to find ways to navigate those changes positively and productively where you can, and working to adjust those things which you feel are bad.
"Ricky, figured you would show up at some point bringing your non-productive liberal points to the table.
I've been accused a lot of things but I must say having liberal opinions isn't one of them. Thanks for the laugh...LOL.
" Your bicycle in a motorcycle race analogy was spot on."
It's only "spot on" if you view hunting as a "race" or a competition against other hunters...in which case I'd say your hunting for the wrong reason.
Nope, you took it wrong there Ricky, its meant to be the type of instrument/equipment used for certain things. This thing was set up as an archery season meant for self drawn bow and arrow, not gun type weapons, aka xbow. Hunting is a sport, within the sport there needs to be limitations because of the resource. If the resource is affected by the equipment use, changes need to be done. This is why I see you as liberal, you have the same cool aid mentality. Spin things to make your outcome right. You and Dana do the same to each thread put out.
Interesting debate. Spinning wing decoys were going to destroy North America waterfowl populations. Whatever happened to those? (I haven’t duck hunted for 20 years since switching from labs to upland bird dogs…., plus NV ducks taste like swamp mud!)
Ducks aren’t sucker’s for spinners anymore:)
" You...do the same to each thread put out. "
You (and others here) keep making the same mistake - thinking that what you see, where you are, can be generalized to cover every situation every where. Sorry, but the problems in Minnesota or Maryland ain't the same as the problems in Massachusetts or Mississippi. 'Too few' deer needs a different approach than 'too many.' Your 'prescriptrion' doesn't apply everywhere.
bowfreak, huntman X10 I've hunted with a recurve my whole life and have had to maneuver around people and technology since the 60's. The US population has almost doubled in that time, technology is through the roof so how could things stay the same? Still I manage to find quiet places on public lands to hunt/fish and harvest my fair share. My 30 something year old kids two sons and a daughter are part of this new generation of hunters but choose to hunt with recurves and flintlocks, though they do complain occasionally not that there are so many people or too much technology, but that hunters don't seem to have the manners they were raised with.
The subject of hunter numbers always comes up as an excuse in these discussions. Can someone explain to me how hunter numbers can possibly stay the same when the amount of land available to hunt has decreased dramatically due to many reasons? If we increased the number of license buyers substantially, where would they all hunt? Are all you private land owners going to volunteer your land to someone? Are they all going to hunt public which is already overcrowded in many areas? How many more people do you want putting in for draws out west? Sure seems like demand is already way higher than supply in most cases? How come everybody focuses on total licenses sold and not on how many hunters we have for the available space? If you look at the playing field, this whole hunter numbers thing is a fairy tale pushed by the greed of the industry...
Is continued advancing technology, along with attempts at hunter recruitment the prescription for the future of hunting in the US ? I get confused when I see posts implying the main problem is lack of places to hunt, yet we somehow need more hunters.
Seems to me we have fewer hunters, but they are hunting multiple states and killing more. Personally, I do not believe in the whole recruitment of hunters concept, I would like see fewer hunters. I do think hunters should concentrate on their image, this in an attempt to recruit non hunting voters to support our cause. Right now I think hunters largely suck at that.
Thanks for posting this John, been around long enough to believe your correct.
Sawtooth - you should have seen what happened here in Colorado when they put on ballot to ban cat hunting. Hunters across the board, many that will never hunt a mountain lions in their lives stuck together. It was very impressive. They donated money, time, put up yard signs, talked with non hunting friends family and co workers, showed up at events. No one thought we would win. It was defeated by 10 points. Largely because hunters didn’t suck at sticking together and getting non hunters to see our side.
I am certainly not disagreeing with some tech is detrimental to future of hunting. However just bitching and moan about is not the answer. Get involved in the process to prevent or change it. Mentor a young person. But sounding like a bitter old man won’t accomplish anything.
I am happy for Colorado, however I do believe hunters can still improve and should strive to do so. The issues will return to Colorado for another round. And, the US is larger than Colorado, and includes California.
"I've been accused a lot of things but I must say having liberal opinions isn't one of them. Thanks for the laugh...LOL." let the record show that I have accused Ricky of having liberal opinions (military v-word mandate related) in the past. You can't claim the title of first! ;)
The lack of pushback on this thread (especially outside of the first day) and the acceptance of at least some truth in the OP's statement is heartwarming. I'm very glad to see it. Now if y'all would come around to accepting the true definition of "market hunter" we would all be one big happy family :)
”let the record show that I have accused Ricky of having liberal opinions (military v-word mandate related) in the past.”
Let the record show that you are obviously mistaken. I have never supported the “military v-mandate.” Not in any way, shape, or form…ever.
"Hunting is a sport, within the sport there needs to be limitations because of the resource."
I agree...hunting is a "sport"... but not in the way you and others seem to think. It is a competition between hunter and animal...not hunter and hunter.
As to "limitations," they do exist...in the form of available tags. Game departments are charged with keeping animal populations healthy and within the carrying capacity of the land...and they attempt to control that with what weapons are allowed and how many tags are issued.
At the end of the day, game departments want "X" amount of animals to be harvested. It doesn't matter whether they are harvested with a selfbow, a compound, a crossbow, a muzzleloader, or a 300 win mag. That's up to the hunter to determine what they want their personal experience to be...within the confines of the law.
But, as technology has made harvesting easier, tags issued becomes fewer. This is clearly seen in Alaska and many of the western states. The restrictions on tags issued is in various forms such as limited draws, quota seasons, shorter seasons, daily bag limits, loss of OTC tags, etc. For fish it can be quota seasons, slotting, minimum lengths, maximum lengths, daily bag limits, etc. Weapon efficiency does have an impact. Review game laws over the past 50 years and it becomes very clear.
"I agree...hunting is a "sport"... but not in the way you and others seem to think. It is a competition between hunter and animal...not hunter and hunter." I agree with Ricky's statement here to a certain degree. We do obviously compete with each other if we are hunting the same land. But hunting public land is also accepting that challenge at the outset. Interesting points and a good spirited debate.
There are hunting and fishing tournaments.
All the young generations today that I see are into cellphones and computers not hunting and fishing so I don’t think we have anything to worry about in the coming years.
In all fairness, I believe there are other groups today that also love animals, conservation, and animal welfare. To say only hunters care is off base.
"But, as technology has made harvesting easier, tags issued becomes fewer."
I agree but as DanaC said, that varies greatly depending on species, location, land patterns, presence of disease, etc. Where I hunt we have virtually unlimited tags and they still can't kill enough to reach their management goals. That in no way means that my specific land is overpopulated...but the DMU where my land is located might well be.
Unfortunately, game populations can't be managed by 40 acre parcels. It's not nearly that precise. And it's not all about hunter harvest either. Natural occurrences like weather, predation, and disease have a big impact. For example, in the UP of Michigan, one overly harsh winter can set management goals back by a decade. It can literally take a healthy population to a virtual deer wasteland in one year.
Sawtooth, there are hunting and fishing tournaments that is true. Nobody can win those without first winning the contest between man and animal. I have no problem with competition, it drives people and is a great motivator. Here's a great quote that at believe is at the heart of the issue.
The eastern whitetail deer hunter mentality is a very poor model to judge hunting overall. Eastern deer is one species which is over population objectives in much of their range. Looking out the window of an eastern box blind does not represent what is happening on the horizon.
I don't believe it is a regional issue because the heart of the problem is human nature. We have freedoms that are only appropriate for people with good ethics, yet we won't agree on what is ethical. I have to mature into understand of what is correct and also allow other people to do the same. Since you can only control what you do yourself then real change has to come through game laws. Until then I hope you all enjoy your freedom and use it wisely.
"In all fairness, I believe there are other groups today that also love animals, conservation, and animal welfare. To say only hunters care is off base."
True...however the only ones doing the real work of responsible population management are hunters. Loving animals is one thing...loving them enough to humanely kill some is another.
There are conservation groups doing good things, conservation goes beyond hunting.
Not only groups, but individuals like me.
"There are conservation groups doing good things, conservation goes beyond hunting."
What do conservation groups do to manage population?
Hunting is the backbone of all conservation efforts and the "North American Model of Wildlife Conservation."
As with most things in life, hunting and fishing can be as easy or as hard as you make it. I will never let someone else's methods disrupt my enjoyment of the outdoors.
What’s hurt tag allotments is people choosing the interests of development and animal predators over human hunters. Not crossbows, compounds, trail cams, etc….
It most certainly possess the threat moving forward. But, don’t blame your fellow hunter for lack of opportunity. Instead, blame the sierra clubs, the BHA, etc…. People who think it’s important to have bulging numbers of animal predators to replace your tags.
It sure doesn't seem cheaper??
I can agree with the concept of this, although not necessarily straight in line with the OP. In a way, hunting as it is being portrayed to the general public, sure doesn't seem in line with the way I and some others see it and participate. Some of that could be good, but a lot of it probably isn't. And yes, our opportunity has declined pretty severely even in the last decade or so. All the while, the gross revenue for hunting gear companies has probably went 5x or more (just throwing a number out; no backing). Having said that, there is still some opportunity out there. Unfortunately, there are also some pretty greedy ones in the arena that would just as soon push a kid out of the way to get their 5th LE hunt of the year.
Maybe you’re just making excuses for just loosing your desire
Ricky, Not being rude but you seem a bit dense on conservation. May I suggest you read "The Sand County Almanac" as a start. Conservation goes way beyond hunting, it has many forms such as habitat improvement for huntible and non huntible species, as one example. Managing populations is as much about increasing populations as it is about killing the excess. Hunters, such as me, do a good part for conservation but to believe only hunting matters is a bit myopic. I am all for hunting, but I am not for claiming only hunters are conservationists. What about those who manage their land for pollinator habitat, wildlife habitat, or prairie restoration ? They are not all anti hunters, nor are they all hunters.
Thanks Live to Hunt for starting this conversation. Interesting how different viewpoints are. Also thanks to Pat for cleaning the site up a bit. Still a bit of pot stirring but a couple months back this thread would been much more ugly.
"Ricky, Not being rude but you seem a bit dense on conservation. May I suggest you read "The Sand County Almanac" as a start."
I already have...multiple times.
Nothing in it changes my opinion about the role hunters play in the conservation of wildlife and their habitat.
Ok, at least we are both hunters.
"Hunting is the backbone of all conservation efforts..."
"the role hunters play in the conservation of wildlife and their habitat. "
The "all" in that first gives me pause. Hunters absolutely are an important component in the total conservation 'picture' but so are those who fight for clean water, improved land access and protection from development, protection of non-game species, better logging practices, etc. etc.
(Of course, many who are doing those 'other' things also hunt, but their focus is wider than 'shoot a few more does.')
" Hunters absolutely are an important component in the total conservation 'picture' but so are those who fight for clean water, improved land access and protection from development, protection of non-game species, better logging practices, etc. etc. "
Yes indeed !
And, simply buying a license does not make a person an automatic conservationist. Some license holders are trespassers, fill others tags, hunt illegally, kill over their limit, etc, etc. To be a conservationist, you have to practice conservation.
As an Alaskan resident for the last decade I can’t think of a single example of hunting season restrictions in state due to new technology infiltrating our field. In fact all the closures and the biggest issue we face in state is federal oversight with this shifting model of Feds manage land and states own/manage the animals. We see more and more every year of the Feds superseding state management and closing down millions of acres to hunting access under the cloak of “federal subsistence”. Locals in the villages of that area can continue to hunt while “non residents” from the road system areas of Alaska are banned from hunting there.
It must be my eastern whitetail mentality but I found the inclusion of Alaska in your take on restrictions being obviously linked to technology either misleading or misinformed but regardless inaccurate.
Nothing restricted with PA hunting due to technology. I can't relate to the OP at all on the subject. We have most opportunities, longest seasons, and most tags right now as I've experienced in the 41 years I've been hunting.
I do not think anybody mentioned the last decade. Technology to me really started with the compound bow. In my posts I clearly said compare game laws back to about 50 years, ( not 10 years ) which is about when the compound technology craze began. There was a time I could hunt griz every year in Alaska as a non resident, and black bear every year in the midwest, and elk and deer OTC in much of the west. That is not the case today in most areas. Sure one could find exceptions, but in general opportunity is reduced now that major technological advances have become the norm. There are other factors to be sure, but ease to the kill is a major one.
And speaking of crossbows, if this tech advancement has no impact, why are the Colorado and Montana hunters so against their unlimited use for all hunters during archery seasons ? Not sure about Alaska and where they stand on crossbow use for all archery season hunters, perhaps others can chime in.
"And, simply buying a license does not make a person an automatic conservationist."
No, but the purchase of every single license aids in the conservation effort, as does the purchase of firearms, ammo, and archery equipment via the Pittman-Robertson act.
I agree with that statement.
Alaska has so few archery only seasons/hunts it’s a non issue from the start. Technology didn’t force the issue for you to no longer hunt DIY for sheep/bears/goats. That was to generate revenue for the guide industry as a solution to protecting the resource from the unlimited demand of non residents… that decision nearly predates compound bows and again had nothing to do with technology unless you consider world war 2 era airplanes technology within the scope of these discussions.
It’s okay to have the view that technology affects hunting seasons and allocation of tags cause it’s an accurate take. It’s just wrong to loop in Alaska as an example to bolster that argument as it doesn’t apply here yet. Alaska in general is fairly restrictive on technology for hunting purposes (which I’m thankful of as a general stance).
So me the undedicated, hunt for the wrong reason person finished my last sit of the season. 7 degrees out, 2 sets of tracks found in the snow, 0 deer seen. Sure am glad I hunt for the wrong reasons. Since September 15th, bird hunting, scouting deer, bow hunting, rifle hunting, bow again, deer seen walking? 5. Deer seen sitting 3. Good to hear others have deer.
I agree, we should have a sandhill crane bow hunt. Aldo did such a great job that we should be able to enjoy ribeye of the sky.
Live2Hunt...
Serious question. Have you thought of hunting an area that has more deer? Here in Michigan, traveling a half our or less can make a world of difference. Heck, just a couple miles can make a huge difference.
From what I can tell, the deer harvest in WI has been pretty stable over the last decade... so someone is finding deer to kill.
Just like here in MI, the boated herds that we all got used to in the previous decade are gone...but it has less to do with "technology" than it does with a concerted effort to reduce deer numbers overall...by any means.
People seemed to be focused on technological impacts that shorten seasons or restricts methods for tagholders. How about we look at how much more difficult it is to even BE a tagholder? Nobody can say point creep hasn’t absolutely exploded. What’s the variable that has caused this? It coincides identically with not only technology, but the rise of the Almighty Hunting Influencer as well. These go hand in hand. Sure, maybe seasons haven’t shortened, but our ability to even participate in seasons (out west) has been decimated. I started putting in for points at 19 years old and I doubt I will draw a sheep tag or a tip top elk tag until I’m nearly retired thanks to the promotion and “accessibility” of these draws and hunting in general. Folks who claim that tech helps accessibility never mention the fact that in many cases it makes things far more inaccessible for a lot of people.
Everyone on this site has had their accessibility negatively impacted by tech whether they wake up and realize it or not.
I get on my land and do it the way I want.
Ricky, the vast majority of those deer are private land. I hunt 100% public forest in central WI North, generally up to a 3 hour 180 deg arc from my home. South of me is mostly private that yes, a lot of is over populated with deer and no access. Any public land down there is over populated with hunters. I’m 63 now and have always had deer on the public or years ago when you could get permission to hunt. With 1000’s of acres of public around me, I’m not jumping in to the $5000 and acre purchase of land or a $2000 a year lease. It would be nice to have a DNR that would be concerned about the public land deer herd.
I think there is a difference on what the Wisconsin DNR feels are ample deer on the Northern Wisconsin landscape, and what some hunters feel are ample deer numbers. As others have said, a bloated deer herd is not desirable by game managers. And, as far as wolves, they are not going away in our lifetime. I have mentioned on the Wisconsin forum, crossbows are NOT the cause for the reduced Northern Wisconsin deer numbers. I do not like crossbows during archery seasons, but in this instance I have to call a spade a spade.
Again, I never said the cause, I have said the #1 is the wolves and the xguns are not helping. No one has ever said that xguns are the cause.
Of course crossbows are not helping to restore deer numbers, we all know that.
"Again, I never said the cause, I have said the #1 is the wolves and the xguns are not helping. No one has ever said that xguns are the cause."
Actually you did...both directly and indirectly. From your very first post.
"I started this in the Wisconsin forum, thought it would get some of you excited on the national forum, enjoy!!! Generally I have been out ice fishing by now. Time, trying to get/see A deer, loss of desire? With all the new tech shit I see, the hunting/fishing made easy crap, just add water and presto a fish crap forward facing sonar, xguns for all so the gun only people can gun hunt during better times crap, I have lost desire for all of it."
It's obvious that you think the new "tech sh*t" is at least a major factor, if not the major factor in ruining your hunting and fishing experience.
At the end of the day, game will most often congregate on the best habitat. A lot of public land was only ever good when the private land was so overpopulated that deer had no choice but to inhabit marginal habitat. Now that herds have been reduced to the point where that is no longer necessary...deer are back to congregating on better habitat. The exact same thing is true here in MI.
That's just the reality of the situation...and modern hunting technology has little to do with it other than helping game departments reach their population goals. Unless and until we find a way to greatly improve public habitat...or the game departments allow vastly bloated deer herds again...that will be the reality.
“Here in Michigan, traveling a half our or less can make a world of difference. Heck, just a couple miles can make a huge difference.”
LOL…. Here in CT, it could be not half an hour, but half a kilometer. The deer know damn well where they get hunted or not.
Just FWIW, if you do most or all of your hunting on Private, you have No Freaking Clue what L2H is talking about. Harvest on Private is technically “regulated” by the state, but it’s actually CONTROLLED by the landowner, or whomever they have allowed to hunt the property.
Boggs clearly gets it.
“What’s the variable that has caused this? It coincides identically with not only technology, but the rise of the Almighty Hunting Influencer as well. These go hand in hand. ”
“Everyone on this site has had their accessibility negatively impacted by tech whether they wake up and realize it or not.”
JMO, what has cheapened hunting & fishing the most is The Reason For Doing It. For most long-timers, the draw was primarily the chance to participate in The Oldest Game On Earth; now it seems to be more and more about the Attention, and nothing gets attention like Results.
Which is how we ended up with the Bowmars. Nobody really cares so much about the Process other than increasing the Efficiency of it and making money by endorsing the Stuff that improves the Efficiency. And of course the more Stuff you use, the more opportunities you have to cash in.
I just Hunt for the simple reason that I want to Get Better At It. I’m not very “successful” by most people’s standards, but I’m always learning something new, and hey — once you punch that tag, you have to wait another year for your next chance. Or maybe 2 years or 3, now…
Really Ricky, and you wonder why I say you are a liberal at heart, Lol
"Just FWIW, if you do most or all of your hunting on Private, you have No Freaking Clue what L2H is talking about."
FWIW...over almost 50 years of hunting...probably 75% of the deer I've taken have been from public land. I know exactly what I'm talking about in regard to the boom and bust caused by bloated deer herds. I often forego my own land in order to hunt the more productive public land nearby.
"Really Ricky, and you wonder why I say you are a liberal at heart..."
What did I say that could even be remotely construed as "liberal." Be specific please.
FFS has definitely changed the world when it comes to tournament angling. Just look at the BassMaster elites or NWT tourneys.
When it comes to the every day angler I don’t think so. You would be amazed at how many boats I see in Chamberlain SD every spring and they are not even using it but they have it on their boat. They are all dragging jigs up stream. It’s not like they are scoping fish and casting on them. I don’t have live but I do run SI and 360 imagery. Sure they have helped me put fish in the boat. But I think GPS and good lake master mapping has put more fish in my boat than anything. I have been saying fish limits need to be reduced for years. I am perfectly happy catching 100 walleyes a day and only keeping a couple to have a meal.
That goes for hunting as well. With all the tech available I think apps like OnX have been the biggest influence over anything. 20 years ago you couldn’t look at your phone and have aerial imagery, topo and property boundaries like you can today.
“ I am perfectly happy catching 100 walleyes a day and only keeping a couple to have a meal.”
That’s the problem with Catch & Release, though…. Let’s say the limit on walleyes is 6 per day, and you keep 4; if the mortality rate for released fish is 10%, you’ve just killed 2 1/3 limits worth of fish. Those “slob fishermen” who kill the first six fish they catch are doing a lot less damage than the Virtuous Sportsmen practicing C&R….
The state can regulate what you keep, but it can’t control what you kill. There could be catch-and-release ONLY, and a resource could still continue to decline from the released-fish mortality.
Years ago, I read a piece in which the author talked about “pointless fishing”; he and his wife were having an Epic kind of a day, and at some point they decided to clip the points off of their flies so that they could get the strike, feel the weight of a well-hooked fish, and then release it — with virtually zero stress on the fish — by simply throwing a little slack.
But of course, they weren’t live-streaming…
“That’s the problem with Catch & Release, though…. Let’s say the limit on walleyes is 6 per day, and you keep 4; if the mortality rate for released fish is 10%, you’ve just killed 2 1/3 limits worth of fish. Those “slob fishermen” who kill the first six fish they catch are doing a lot less damage than the Virtuous Sportsmen practicing C&R….“
I agree with you if the fish have been caught out of deep water and suffer from barotrauma or hooked deep while live bait rigging. But the majority of the fish I catch are with jigs and in water less than 20’. Those fish have a very high survival rate. The rainy river spring run proves my point. Thousands of fish are caught every spring and released since its catch and release only. If a big portion of those fish died the fishery would show signs of it and it’s not.
Twisting my words to a meaning you want to be. Never implied, said, meant, whatever you want, that xguns were the cause. Part of yes, I have stated many times wolves were number 1, advancing tech and easy button weapons for a long period of time. So, if you don’t want to be a liberal, please don’t put your thoughts in my words by twisting the meaning. Also, this is not only about xguns, it is all advancing technology to make taking game and fish easier for all to where it impacts the resources to where they cannot keep up. Wolves are not technology and are wanted to stop humans from hunting.
"Twisting my words to a meaning you want to be. Never implied, said, meant, whatever you want, that xguns were the cause. Part of yes, I have stated many times wolves were number 1, advancing tech and easy button weapons for a long period of time."
Sometimes I get the impression you don't even know what you've said from one post to the next. Let's take a look at your what you started this thread with...
"I started this in the Wisconsin forum, thought it would get some of you excited on the national forum, enjoy!!! Generally I have been out ice fishing by now. Time, trying to get/see A deer, loss of desire? With all the new tech shit I see, the hunting/fishing made easy crap, just add water and presto a fish crap forward facing sonar, xguns for all so the gun only people can gun hunt during better times crap, I have lost desire for all of it. Just think, a person like me that lived breathed thought only of these outdoor passions loosing desire. But, it sickens me of how cheap it has been made. Kind of like taking my pedal bike to a motorcycle race and competing. It used to be something of an honor to learn to hunt and take deer with a bow and arrow, where/how/when to catch all different types of fish. Now that is all thrown away, a slap in the face, to compete in todays world you are supposed to join them and use this new technology because the resources cannot handle it and to catch/kill anything you will need to use this shit to eak out what is left. It sickens me to no end what has happened to this way of life. Work, effort, skill, desire? F' that. Cheat, easy, fast, dumb is the new way of the world. I'm waiting to see someone using a forward facing fish machine in the pristine world of steelhead fishing. Shooting through pools making sure fish are there. Why not, musky fishing is not hours of fishing it is guaranteed chance at throwing at found fish till they take. I will eventually get out onto the ice, hopefully most of the wannabe's that got there new Wamo fishing games for Xmas are bored and would rather sit home get fat and watch football. Sucks to see the way it is now when you have lived through the good times.
I haven't twisted anything. Nowhere do you even mention wolves. Your semi-coherent rant was all about new technology and how it is ruining your hunting.
So I did not say xguns were taking all the deer and ruining my hunting, that is what I thought. Technology, technology was ruining the resources is what my “rant” is about. It covers the whole of technology. As far as my hunt? From the PM’s I received about how glad people are that I brought this subject upfront, I am not the only one concerned. This is not an only xgun thread,
"So I did not say xguns were taking all the deer and ruining my hunting, that is what I thought. Technology, technology was ruining the resources is what my “rant” is about. It covers the whole of technology."
Just so I get this straight. In regard to your rant, are xbows part of the new "technology" or are wolves part of the new "technology?"
You don't need to answer that...the answer is quite obvious.
lol, ok there Ricky. So here is a liberal playbook way of doing things. Take segments out of a whole article or conversation to make something sound like you want it to for your thought or benefit. For your question, did I just saw wolves weee not technology but something wanted by the antis to stop hunting? Wow, learn to read all of it, not segment up for your argument props.
This was about a line in the sand for hunting and fishing equipment technology that makes it easier and easier to get on, catch and or kill game or fish to where it affects that resource. My god man.
With 1000’s of acres of public around me, I’m not jumping in to the $5000 and acre purchase of land or a $2000 a year lease. It would be nice to have a DNR that would be concerned about the public land deer herd. By L2H.
Wanting something for nothing seems to pretty much defines a liberal.
"This was about a line in the sand for hunting and fishing equipment technology that makes it easier and easier to get on, catch and or kill game or fish to where it affects that resource."
Ummmm...oh forget it.
Hilltop, something for nothing? Ok, I thought we pay for having that, but, whatever you want to think. You must have bought your own land, that’s good for you!!!?
Ricky, bla bla bla, your nonsense is not worth it, ummmmm, ok then
Ok...I think I know what you're talking about now. Those dang hi-tech Wisconsin Wolf-bots. I stand corrected.
LOL
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