DC plane crash
Nontypical
Contributors to this thread:
70lbDraw 30-Jan-25
annonymouse 30-Jan-25
dakotahunter 30-Jan-25
Jim Moore 31-Jan-25
greenmountain 31-Jan-25
bigeasygator 31-Jan-25
CaptMike 31-Jan-25
sundowner 31-Jan-25
bigeasygator 31-Jan-25
Bob H in NH 31-Jan-25
bigeasygator 31-Jan-25
Pat Lefemine 31-Jan-25
Mike B 31-Jan-25
bluedog 31-Jan-25
Bob Rowlands 31-Jan-25
sundowner 31-Jan-25
Beendare 31-Jan-25
Beendare 31-Jan-25
bigeasygator 31-Jan-25
Beendare 31-Jan-25
sundowner 31-Jan-25
bigeasygator 31-Jan-25
bigeasygator 31-Jan-25
Jim Moore 31-Jan-25
WV Mountaineer 31-Jan-25
CaptMike 31-Jan-25
sundowner 31-Jan-25
bigeasygator 31-Jan-25
bluedog 31-Jan-25
CaptMike 31-Jan-25
annonymouse 31-Jan-25
annonymouse 31-Jan-25
bigeasygator 31-Jan-25
Beendare 01-Feb-25
Jim Moore 01-Feb-25
spike78 01-Feb-25
2Wild Bill 01-Feb-25
bigeasygator 01-Feb-25
Mike in CT 01-Feb-25
bigeasygator 01-Feb-25
Jim Moore 01-Feb-25
Babysaph 01-Feb-25
Mike B 01-Feb-25
Babysaph 01-Feb-25
bigeasygator 01-Feb-25
CaptMike 01-Feb-25
Beendare 01-Feb-25
sundowner 02-Feb-25
sundowner 02-Feb-25
bigeasygator 02-Feb-25
scent 02-Feb-25
itshot 02-Feb-25
bigeasygator 02-Feb-25
CaptMike 02-Feb-25
bigeasygator 03-Feb-25
WV Mountaineer 03-Feb-25
bigeasygator 03-Feb-25
CaptMike 03-Feb-25
bigeasygator 03-Feb-25
Beendare 03-Feb-25
bigeasygator 03-Feb-25
Beendare 03-Feb-25
CaptMike 04-Feb-25
Mpdh 04-Feb-25
Beendare 04-Feb-25
From: 70lbDraw
30-Jan-25
Trumps blaming DEI for the crash. People think he’s jumping the gun. Biden lowered the standards for ATC qualifications, and Trump reversed the order. It’ll be interesting to see what the outcome is.

30-Jan-25

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
Does anyone remember who Biden originally nominated to head the FAA?

From: annonymouse
30-Jan-25

annonymouse's Link
Ricky...saw that video. No way can anyone not affected by TDS deny that this guy was a DEI hire. Also, turns out that the tower was understaffed where one controller was tasked at two different jobs when the crash occurred. As more knowledge is shown about this event, the more that it will be understood that lives were lost due to the DEI obsession of the Democrat Communist Party...equity over ability (see link).

From: dakotahunter
30-Jan-25
I really dislike people jumping to conclusions and putting blame anywhere until all the facts are found. Most likely the issue is with a few places

From: Jim Moore
31-Jan-25
I'm with you dakota. There needs to be a full accounting of that incident, and you can bet Trumps IG will be climbing up some asses, most notably the pathetic FAA.

Full disclosure, I retired from the FAA as an electronic tech. 31 years. NAVCOM stuff. I was hired in 1990 and in 91 was sent to an advanced math heavy electronics course that was 13 weeks long in OKC, the FAA academy. I was in there with engineers with bachelor's degrees. Transistor theory was learned in a week or so, and I was told they got most of a semester to learn just that. Never mind antenna A-spacing, limacon plots, ILS and a glide slope. Comms were easy, it was that navigation shit that was tough. I was a simple Navy radar guy. Course was a MF'r and I was struggling. I was told in no uncertain terms that I may not get a second chance if I flunked because I was a white male. It was pointed out that 3 of my classmates had been there 2 to 4 times already because they were not like me. I would be sent to an academic review board, sent back to my district for peer review and my fate would be determined at that time. Got through it though. DEI was going on for a long time before Obama and Biden made it their pedestal. Clinton was in when I started.

All that said, I've seen things come down from the head shed you wouldn't believe. The FAA was trying to hire anything not white male for years. They could not find anyone to pass the tests, especially AT controllers. Controllers work till they're 56 then are mandated to retire because of the stress, especially in those high-volume air spaces like DC.

I know for a fact they dumbed down the qualifications to become a technician. Some of the dumb asses I had to work with should make us all take a pause especially in ILF conditions. I rescued a few systems in metropolitan airports that they couldn't get on the air because they didn't know the equipment. I drove 300 miles to hit a reset switch in Reno because management let all the techs go to schools or take leave and there was no one there to certify the system. ILF stuff. took more time to open the door than to reset the fricken system at 11:00 at night.

That said, there is a lot of good troops out there keeping up with some stuff that was installed in the 50's and 60's if you can believe it. Some of those systems are hard to support. It's getting ridiculous and I hope this accident was a wakeup call. They need new stuff out there. Trying to find a variac for a 60-year-old TACAN antenna control unit becomes quite the scramble sometimes. Older FAA offices have drawers full of 60+ years old components. You throw nothing away. Someone may need something. Crazy shit out there. SMH. I was going to hang on for a couple of more years because we were short staffed, but there just comes a point where you got to hang up your spurs.

31-Jan-25
I didn't hear what Trump actually said but The only appropriate response was that it tragically happened and we need to find out why and what we need to minimize the risk of it happening again.

From: bigeasygator
31-Jan-25
He blamed the crash on DEI, greenmountain. That’s what he said. That we haven’t completed the investigations, but said he has opinions about what caused the crash, and then multiple times pointed to DEI policies without any evidence that they in any way contributed to this crash.

Press conference was quintessential Trump - the type of thing that caused record numbers of people to turn out and vote against him in 2020 IMO.

From: CaptMike
31-Jan-25
How many BETTER qualified people were passed up for jobs at Reagan National due to DEI? Many reports that they are currently short-staffed. Typical sleaze, TDS prevents any rational thought for him.

31-Jan-25
"He blamed the crash on DEI, greenmountain. That’s what he said. That we haven’t completed the investigations, but said he has opinions about what caused the crash, and then multiple times pointed to DEI policies without any evidence that they in any way contributed to this crash."

Did you listen to the entire press conference or are you basing your opinion on snippets you have seen from your reliable news sources.

1. You have no idea what evidence Trump has or what he was briefed on. You assume you know everything he knows. You don't.

2. It has now come out...and we now know that one air traffic controller working two positions.

3. It has also come out...and we now know that at this particular airport, they have a need for 30 controllers and they only have 19

4. We also know that part of the reason why they have a shortage is due to DEI hiring requirements. It has been a common complaint for years.

You can bet your last dollar that Trump was briefed on these exact things prior to that news conference.

Your response is "quintessential" TDS - the type of thing that caused millions of people to say enough is enough and vote for him again...and for the first time... in 2024 You still don't get it...IMO.

From: sundowner
31-Jan-25
What Ricky said X2

From: bigeasygator
31-Jan-25

bigeasygator's Link
Yes I listened to the entirety of the press conference. It was on CNBC as I was working yesterday and I listened to the whole thing.

Whether or not any of that is true (haven’t seen any reports stating those things) it still doesn’t mean it in any way played a part in the crash. I have a friend who is a pilot who shared his opinion that ATC did their job based on the reports. As he said, “Once traffic in sight is confirmed by flight crew it’s on flight crew to see and avoid.”

Onus for separation between the aircrafts was on the helicopter based on transmission - ATC confirmed the helicopter had visual confirmation of the jet and was supposed to ensure separation based on visuals. He shared this link that provided a fairly detailed accounting of events.

A lot of things are highlighted as contributing factors - crowded airspace, use of night vision, etc. I didn’t hear DEI mentioned once.

So if TDS is objectively looking at facts and evidence, then sure, I’ve got TDS.

31-Jan-25

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
Another opinion…

From: Bob H in NH
31-Jan-25
If Trump had those facts, then he should have said that when asked why it was DEI. Instead he said, and it's a quote "because I have common sense"

The guy is trying to move in good ways, but his mouth is his worst enemy

From: bigeasygator
31-Jan-25
Bob gets it.

31-Jan-25
"Yes I listened to the entirety of the press conference."

Then you would know that the following statement is inaccurate...or at least not complete.

"He blamed the crash on DEI..."

The very first question asked of him was as follows:

Reporter - "Are you saying this crash was caused and the result of diversity hiring, and what evidence have you seen to support these claims?"

Trump - "It just could have been..." and later in the answer "...so we don't know."

You only seem to hear the portion that supports your TDS and ignore everything else.

I will agree, Trump rambles in such situations and he tends to throw out a lot of "what ifs" but if you listen with an open mind...like you claim to do...you would hear much more than what you seem to hear.

From: Pat Lefemine
31-Jan-25
I love Trump. But I was cringing during this press conference.

He lacks message discipline. Example: he mentioned the ATC was hiring dwarfs? Saying the victims died a horrible death? Blaming ATC and DEI immediately without any evidence or facts as to the crash? This makes people question his fitness for the office.

From: Mike B
31-Jan-25
Trump and several others are commenting that the chopper was flying far above it's predetermined ceiling of 200'.

If that is so, then the US military is going to be liable for that crash, and all of the legal litigation.....which I am sure will commence very soon.

31-Jan-25
"But I was cringing during this press conference."

So was I. I often cringe at things Trump says. But to many...that's why they like him. They like the infiltered, total access, blunt way he goes about things.

To play devils advocate...let's assume an illegal alien rapes an murders a girl.

Without knowing anything about the situation except for the immigration status of the people involved, would it not be absolutely correct to say that a lax border policy was at least partially to blame?

Again, we have no idea what Trump was briefed on. I sure as hell hope that the POTUS is privy to information that we don't have full access to...at least at the speed he is notified. If Trump knows about the current staffing problems with ATC, and at this airport in particular...it actually IS "common sense" to think it played a part.

I don't particularly like Trumps style all the time either. Sometimes he says things that are in my opinion, moronic. I especially thought what he said about Pete Buttigieg was absolutely uncalled for at that press conference. Having said that, that's what I voted for...warts and all. It's that same demeanor that makes him so effective in other situations.

31-Jan-25

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
Not that it really matters, but I am now seeing reports that the pilot of the Black Hawk was a female with 500 hrs experience and she was on a training flight.

I've seen quite a bit about the very experienced "crew chief" but this is the first I'm hearing about the actual pilot.

Has anyone else heard this?

"The Black Hawk helicopter involved in the deadly D.C. plane crash on Wednesday night was being flown by a female pilot with over 500 hours of flight time, who was training with an instructor pilot."

From: bluedog
31-Jan-25
The actual pilot... the pilot in charge is the AC, the aircraft commander. In a Huey the AC was left seat, the "peter pilot" was right seat. Blackhawk be same quite likely.

If collision was near 90 degrees as I've heard, crewchief missed seeing it. I can imagine the difficulty with all the ground lights and aircraft in D.C. Obviously human error was main cause, always is in collisions, blame game is pointless in my opinion. It does seem they were flying too high from my very distant and out of touch point of view..

Had a couple very near mid air collisions in my time which I won't digress to.. came close from "damn" to "oh Fk!"

From: Bob Rowlands
31-Jan-25
What I got from Juan Browne's Blancolirio channel was,

1) The Blackhawk pilots had on night vision googles that limit peripheral vision and depth perception.

2) The Blackhawk was at 200' and initially flying within that height restriction.

3) The helo 'possibly' misidentified the FOLLOWING jet BEHIND the one they hit, as the one atc had asked them twice to get a visual on. That visual was acknowledged by the helo twice. But on the WRONG JET, the following jet.

4) Thinking they had the jet the atc asked them to keep an eye off well in the distance, the helo ascended through 350' and collided with the descending jet passing through 375'. The helo crew had no idea the jet was right there. Mistaken ID.

Contributing factors imo. It's a very congested airspace. At night there is considerable distraction of dealing with ground light everywhere. There was only one atc controller handling a workload that should have been controlled by two.

From: sundowner
31-Jan-25
"But to many...that's why they like him. They like the infiltered, total access, blunt way he goes about things."

Yes we do.

From: Beendare
31-Jan-25
Yes, Trump blamed it on DEI and it was no doubt a contributing factor. Just wait until all the information about DEI hiring and the guy Ricky mentioned Huerta that Obama appointed to implement diversity.

People that were qualified were getting turned down people that had not had a job for years were given priority over people that had been in the Air Force or worked in the industry.

The fact is there are not enough people as aircraft controllers….. and this is all because of qualified people being turned down because they were white.

From: Beendare
31-Jan-25
Did you know there is a 1000 person class action lawsuit against the FAA for their DEI hiring? Yeah, they are excluding Qualified people, but instead hiring with crazy DEI practices.

The Armstrong and Getty podcast presents some horrifying statistics.

From: bigeasygator
31-Jan-25
Yes, Trump blamed it on DEI and it was no doubt a contributing factor.

How? How is DEI the issue and not budget cuts or staff turnover? What is your proof that ATC jobs went unfilled while they were waiting for DEI candidates that never materialized?

If two AT controllers were there what would have been done different? Again, the ATC did their job.

Two people on seat wouldn’t have changed the fact that the helicopter pilot misidentified the aircraft.

31-Jan-25
"Yes, Trump blamed it on DEI..."

Trump - "It just could have been..." and later in the answer "...so we don't know."

31-Jan-25
"Two people on seat wouldn’t have changed the fact that the helicopter pilot misidentified the aircraft."

Actually it could have. I listened to a ex-ATC that explained how.

When the ATC asked the BH if they had a visual on the other plane, the BH said yes...even though it was the wrong plane.

At that point the ATC likely moved on to something else.

Had they been fully staffed, that ATC might well have stayed on the BH situation to verify. That did not happen.

From: Beendare
31-Jan-25
True, Trump insulted DEI had something to do with it- I mischaracterized his statement. My bet, Trump knows a heck of a lot more about what happened than he is letting on.

And for the totally uninformed folks;

Obama transformed the way the FAA hired people. They would prioritize someone who hasn't worked in years [a bit of a red flag wouldn't you think BEG?] over someone who worked in Air traffic previously in the AF. There is literally thousands of qualified people suing the FAA. In 2018 the FAA was called on the stupid DEI test they were using. They were supposed to dump it but there is testimony they are still using it. DEI was a priority in the FAA under Obama and Biden. [Just wait until the whistleblowers start coming out....]

The airport was understaffed.....and it has been repeatedly mentioned many airports across the country are understaffed...especially the cluttered airspaces like DC.

The Helo pilot was well qualified. The initial instructions to the pilot were, "do you see the plane" ...when in actuality there were 2 planes. The ATC should have stated, "Do you see the plane...AND refer to the direction of the oncoming plane that hit them" The ATC Clearly did not give explicit instructions in a congested area.

DC had sent someone home and was understaffed....all while there are qualified white people that could be hired.

Was the accident due to multiple factors- absolutely. Pilot error played a part in this....but the Democrat policy that created the potential for this mess cannot be ignored.

From: sundowner
31-Jan-25
So, it appears that B.E.G. is totally in favor of DEI hiring of Air Traffic Controllers, using skin color, gender, sexual orientation and country of origin as criteria for qualifications rather than education, mental sharpness, IQ and ability to perform effectively under pressure.

Why is that? Because Trump is against DEI hiring so it MUST be a good thing! SMH

31-Jan-25
"My bet, Trump knows a heck of a lot more about what happened than he is letting on."

Without a doubt. The arrogance of those who think he only knows what they know from reading "reliable" news sources is beyond the pale.

From: bigeasygator
31-Jan-25
So, it appears that B.E.G. is totally in favor of DEI hiring of Air Traffic Controllers, using skin color, gender, sexual orientation and country of origin as criteria for qualifications rather than education, mental sharpness, IQ and ability to perform effectively under pressure.

I never once said that. What I said is that I see no evidence that DEI policies had anything to do with this crash. Anyone suggesting it has is - IMO - grasping at straws based on the evidence at hand. There’s been no evidence presented that the ATC was understaffed solely because of DEI policies (or that they played any part in staffing levels at the airport). Again, seems pretty clear that the ATC did their job.

From: bigeasygator
31-Jan-25
Trump - "It just could have been..." and later in the answer "...so we don't know."

Reporter: “That’s why I’m trying to figure out how you can come to the conclusion right now that diversity had something to do with this crash.”

Trump: “Because I have common sense. OK? And unfortunately, a lot of people don’t.”

From: Jim Moore
31-Jan-25
I think the media is taking what Trump saying it was DEI practices that was part of this "perfect storm "of events resulted in the deaths of 67 persons, and running with the narrative that Trump said that DEI practices were the reason for said accident. I'm with BEG and couple of others in saying let the investigators do their thing. I'm hoping this new administration is transparent enough to let us know all the factors to this "perfect storm" scenario.

That said, across the board in the FAA, there is a personnel shortage. Is it because they can't hire enough qualified controllers or enough controllers that check that DEI box? I can't say for sure, but I've been in those ARTC's during high volume operations, and that is some crazy shit. Becoming an ATC used to be a high failure rate training course due to the complexity of keeping aircraft from running into each other. 40 to 50 percent "back in the day." Like I mentioned before, the FAA and other agencies are trying to check that DEI box and have been for years. We can hypothesize all we want, but none of us know for sure.

31-Jan-25
I personally believe he is right. Whether it was directly caused by a person who got their job due to their gender choice has yet to be determined for the public’s consumption. But, I haven’t seen him say anything akin to this without already knowing the answer. I doubt this will be any different.

Ask yourself this. Are you ok with “affirmative action”? I’m not. No where is it accepted belief in order to get the best applicants, you must hire a person based on their race. So, why is DEI considered an acceptable guideline?

As level headed and true as that is, it is sadly apparent that hiring people based on their gender declaration is not only the correct way: it’s expected to give them the preference they need to beat out a more qualified person.

Tighten those belts fellas. This is just the start of the shit show. Trump might make you cringe, shutter, your skin crawl, etc…. because he isn’t worried about your feelings. Or, he might already know the answer. Time will tell.

FWIW, instead of complaining about his delivery on this controversial topic, understanding he is committed to fixing our ails would likely help you get over his tone. I’ll take that every single second over the bullshit that we’ve been spoon fed and brow beaten with concerning the whole lgtbq movement.

Effective leaders of men don’t compromise to personal feelings. They don’t negotiate grey lines. They lead by example and an unapologetic intent to represent the greater good.

This is the leader of the free world leveling his house. Suck it up buttercups.

From: CaptMike
31-Jan-25
This is really laughable. Sleaze pretends to know things that he is not remotely associated with and from that he can assert that it had nothing to do with DEI. When you are dealing with someone as mentally handicapped as he is due to TDS, there is no constructive conversation. It is merely entertainment, and for that I thank him!

From: sundowner
31-Jan-25
"This is the leader of the free world leveling his house. Suck it buttercups."

X2! Lol!!

31-Jan-25

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
Report of lack of ATCs at DCA comes amid lawsuit FAA trying to fill jobs based on race

"A New York Times report saying the air control tower at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport has been understaffed for years came amid a lawsuit claiming the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) discriminated against air traffic controller applicants based on their race.

The Times report said the tower at the airport was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, citing the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels.

The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers union call for 30.

The lawsuit represents nearly 1,000 individuals who went to school to become air traffic controllers . They passed the normal test to obtain the position right before the Obama administration said the class was too white and threw out the tests with the applicants, the suit alleges.

Former Nevada Attorney General Adam Laxalt, who serves as co-counsel for Mountain States Legal Foundation, based in Colorado, is leading efforts for a lawsuit.

"When you travel and have a delay, it’s because there aren’t enough of these people," Laxalt told the Wall Street Journal last year. "When you see these near incidents in air traffic control, it’s because there aren’t enough people. There are only 14,000 air traffic controllers. A thousand were scrapped a decade ago, and the bottom line is they’ve never made up losing all of this pipeline."

From: bigeasygator
31-Jan-25

bigeasygator's Link
The air traffic controllers union responded Friday to claims by President Trump this week that diversity programs contributed to the fatal crash in Washington Wednesday night. “Air traffic controllers earn the prestigious and elite status of being a fully certified professional controller after successfully completing a series of rigorous training milestones. The standards to achieve certifications are not based on race or gender,” Nick Daniels, president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association (NATCA), said in a statement.

From: bluedog
31-Jan-25
Some of you are really using this tragedy as platform for political bull shit?

This place has changed too far ... way too many good guys have left..why should I hang around? Not my kind of camp fire any longer.

Adios

From: CaptMike
31-Jan-25
"Some of you are really using this tragedy as platform for political bull shit?"

It is possible that political bullshit may have been a contributing factor of this tragedy. The only possible way to make it safer will be to identify the issue that caused it and then fix said issue, if found to be the fault.

However, we are all free to stay or leave these pages but in reality, it might be you, attempting to remove any politics from it that is the B.S.

From: annonymouse
31-Jan-25

annonymouse's Link
Just another Biden appointment that checked boxes rather than qualifications.

From: annonymouse
31-Jan-25

annonymouse's Link

From: bigeasygator
31-Jan-25
Some of you are really using this tragedy as platform for political bull shit?

They’re just taking their cues from the CiC, bluedog.

From: Beendare
01-Feb-25
Wrong Bluedog...it's Obama and Biden that made this political.....and left this mess for others to clean up.

My family spends a lot of time on Airplanes- it would be nice to know we have the best people keeping them safe.....current reports indicate that we don't.

From: Jim Moore
01-Feb-25
"Some of you are really using this tragedy as platform for political bull shit?"

Exactly! What pisses me off about some of this crap, No one knows. Let the investigation go for phks sakes. I got off the phone with two co-workers (FAA) and they have no friggin clue what's going on. I'm more right wing than Attila the Hun as the saying goes, but for gawds sakes I hope I will always stay pragmatic. Look at my last two posts. Yes DEI is alive and well in government but step the phk back and let the investigation go forward. That's all guys. Give the ad homonym bullshit a break. The knee-jerk crap gets old. Kudos to BEG, and Bluedog for taking fire from some of you. BD has been here since the Prodigy BB days. He has been there and done that in Hueys in hot zones. Damn guys, I voted for Trump but haven't lost my ability for look at both sides of an issue. Pragmatism, look it up.

01-Feb-25
Are we now getting to the point where we can’t discuss the very things that this section of Bowsite was set up to discuss because this one still offends someone’s sensibilities?

Maybe Pat should set up yet another section of the Bowsite called the ”Super Dooper Nontypical with Double Droptine and Twin Main Beams and Antlered Doe Forum.”

”Pragmatism” would be knowing exactly what this section of the Bowsite was for before specifically making the conscious decision to re-register in order to participate in it.

01-Feb-25

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
Back to the original discussion, it would appear that the problems with DEI at ATC goes way back.

(video at link)

"Here is a Senate hearing from 10 years ago with Obama’s DOT secretary where concerns were voiced about the change in the way that FAA controllers were hired. There is clearly a problem with the biographical questionnaire that is rejecting highly qualified candidates for positions that they desperately need to fill and nobody understands what is going on."

Unfortunately this is not unique to the FAA. If it hasn't already, it's only a matter of time before the severe ramifications of hiring practices based on anything other than merit rear their ugly head in a number of other areas like medicine, public safety, military, government, business, and and a whole host of others.

01-Feb-25

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
Sometimes we lose sight of the real victims of tragedies like this.

7 friends just returning home from a Kansas bird hunt.

I happened to see this on FB.

From: spike78
01-Feb-25
Yup I’m guessing that a tragedy is not the correct time to talk crap and blame the previous administration for it without the report coming out first. Although ATC didn’t say much until only seconds before the crash.

From: 2Wild Bill
01-Feb-25
Without question this was a tragic event.

With regard to the involvement and statement of Trump, first of all, it is true that we are not aware of what he knows about every/anything. Secondly, he has a handle on the depth of malfeasance that threatens every day Americans, every day. It isn't an exaggeration to suspect that the most prevalent common sense for the last twenty years has been nonsense, especially to someone who is taking on that foolishness culture to correct the morality decline in our country. The scope of the problem is big and requires a confident people with courage to act on raw facts, aka, self evident truth. Americans have been use to feeble leadership and are wary of trusting leadership, rightly so. IMHO he wasn't sooo horrible in his first term, that is unless you have TDS, and people who voted for him counted that service as worth repeating with the hope that he brings new insight to the office.

The loss of lives to those left behind is life changing and worthy of our prayers for a peace to overtake them in what is left of their time here.

From: bigeasygator
01-Feb-25
Well said, Jim.

From: Mike in CT
01-Feb-25
"Are we now getting to the point where we can’t discuss the very things that this section of Bowsite was set up to discuss because this one still offends someone’s sensibilities?"

I think we should have free reign to discuss any and all subjects non-hunting related on this forum as that was the intended use for it. I also think everyone here has a thick enough skin to weather the occasional shot across the bow; that being said I don't think the distinction between discourse and derision should be too difficult to grasp.

Posts that offer nothing in the way of substantive counterpoint or rebuttal have become far too commonplace and that needs to stop-now. Serious topics deserved serious attention and above all, investiture in advancing to the ultimate goal, the facts, the truth of the matter.

That goal is poorly served when lobbing mortars takes precedence over offering valid analyses and supporting evidence.

If anything should foster a spirit of decorum I would hope that a tragedy of this magnitude would be that spark.

01-Feb-25
"Yup I’m guessing that a tragedy is not the correct time to talk crap and blame the previous administration for it without the report coming out first."

While I tend to agree, I think Trump (and others) are of the "deal with it now" mindset. We all know that within a week or two, the news media (as well as the American people) will move on to the next hot thing and ultimately nothing gets done.

01-Feb-25
"Serious topics deserved serious attention and above all, investiture in advancing to the ultimate goal, the facts, the truth of the matter."

I couldn't agree more.

Having said that, anyone who thinks that the DEI craziness that has permeated virtually all aspects of our society isn't of monumental importance for all of us is sadly mistaken.

And yes...it is a political problem that requires a political solution. Not recognizing it for what it is simply sticking your head in the sand.

From: bigeasygator
01-Feb-25
Couldn’t agree more, Mike in CT.

From: Jim Moore
01-Feb-25
Ricky, I will admit I had a couple of bourbons last night and that may have colored my little outburst. Not like me at all really. In my defense, I always try to comport myself on forums as if I am speaking to individuals I am in a room with. I wish others would at least try the same. I've seen a lot of friends split and leave over the years here and I hate to see it. I may not agree with BEG, BD, Grey, FDP, and a few others all the time, but I also agree sometimes and they make me think and rethink. I think you can agree. Most importantly, I try never to resort to ad hominem bullshit. You're right, this whole FAA thing does stink of politics, like about everything else. I can vouch for the idiocy after 30+ years. Talked to a former co-worker yesterday and he is about to bail before his retirement age. It's gotten that stupid. Actually, the reason I left in 2021. Have a great rest of the day and prayers and thoughts out there to those struggling with the two tragedies the last couple of days. Hopefully things get fixed.

From: Babysaph
01-Feb-25
Since it happened while Trump was President it will be his fault

From: Mike B
01-Feb-25
As an Admin and Moderator on numerous sites in the past, the best summation of how to conduct yourself in a forum is:

Don't be an ass.

Disagree, discuss, argue, etc...just don't be an ass about it.

From: Babysaph
01-Feb-25
Sometimes I get carried away. It’s the attorney in me. Most don’t know I am an attorney too.

01-Feb-25
Jim...

No issues here. You are entitled to your opinions, bourbon or no bourbon. LOL

I tend to respond to people in the same tone they deliver. Respect is a two way street as is humility, arrogance and "ad hominem bullsh*t."

As to getting things fixed, unfortunately it took a while to get to this point...and it isn't going to be fixed in 2 weeks. But, it has to start somewhere, and in my opinion Trump is just the person to start...as he is just brazen and classless enough to get the ball rolling the other way. The DEI and woke crap is not going to be "finessed" away, it has to be blown up.

Right man...right time...IMO of course.

01-Feb-25

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
FAA Academy in Oklahoma struggled to fill classrooms due to DEI quotas, Sen. Mullin says

"Sen. Markwayne Mullin, R-Okla., told "Fox News Live" Saturday that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Academy in Oklahoma has struggled to fill classrooms due to DEI quotas.

"Where the FAA air traffic controllers get trained is right here inside of Oklahoma, in Oklahoma City," Mullin said. "That's their training hub and I will tell you we were having a hard time filling the classes because of DEI."

Something tells me that when all the "Trump is a meanie and says mean things" stuff dies down, he will be proven right on this. While it may not be the sole factor in this specific case, this specific case will be the catalyst to bring it to the forefront.

Trump realizes this...and he will damn sure exploit it. "Never let a crisis go to waste."

From: bigeasygator
01-Feb-25
Something tells me that when all the "Trump is a meanie and says mean things" stuff dies down, he will be proven right on this

Doubt it. Staffing for ATCs has been a decades long issue - DEI policies being but a minor contributor to the problem. In fact, many of the policies being discussed on this thread were ended over six years ago. Regardless, despite being “undermanned,” it certainly seems that staffing has next to nothing to do with this issue. The ATC did their job. The helicopter air crew didn’t.

Rather than point to the obvious reasons that contributed to the failure - things like a complex and dynamic airspace, nighttime visibility issues, different frequencies of communication between the two aircraft, etc he chose to politicize the accident and discuss DEI policies.

Again another instance where he’d have been better served to keep his mouth shut.

01-Feb-25
It’s a shame Trump doesn’t have you on his advisory staff BEG.

I mean you’ve been right about so many of his political decisions and maneuvers.

LOL

From: CaptMike
01-Feb-25
Who will be the arbiter of what is substantive or is valid analysis?

From: Beendare
01-Feb-25
Did you know there is a 1000 person class action lawsuit against the FAA for their DEI hiring? Yeah, they are excluding Qualified people, but instead hiring with crazy DEI practices.

The Armstrong and Getty podcast presents some horrifying statistics.

02-Feb-25
"Rather than point to the obvious reasons that contributed to the failure - things like a complex and dynamic airspace, nighttime visibility issues, different frequencies of communication between the two aircraft, etc he chose to politicize the accident and discuss DEI policies."

Are you really that naive? As I said before...

"While it may not be the sole factor in this specific case, this specific case will be the catalyst to bring it to the forefront. Trump realizes this...and he will damn sure exploit it. "Never let a crisis go to waste"

You naively assume Trump is doing what he is doing as a result of this specific problem. He is not. He is using this specific problem as a springboard to correct what many see a larger societal problem.

It truly is a checkers and chess situation.

From: sundowner
02-Feb-25
Trump proves time and again how far ahead of the leftist dems he is. He out- maneuvers them on every issue, every day. And he does it totally openly and fully transparent. It is truly fun to watch.

02-Feb-25

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Interesting….I'm also reading that prior to her name being released, all her social media accounts have been scrubbed from the internet.

02-Feb-25
"Trump proves time and again how far ahead of the leftist dems he is. He out- maneuvers them on every issue, every day. And he does it totally openly and fully transparent. It is truly fun to watch."

I don't know how "fun" it is...it can be pretty cringe worthy at times. This is one of those times in my opinion...but I think I understand what he's doing and why he's doing it.

Trump is a macro kind of guy and people like BEG are micro kind of people. I think he would admit that.

From: sundowner
02-Feb-25
"I don't know how "fun" it is..."

Well, maybe "fun" isn't quite the correct word, but for the last four years when hearing what Biden was doing or reading a headline on almost everything his administration had done, my reaction was "What? Why on earth would they do that?"

Now, as during the first Trump term, when I see or hear of what Trump is doing, I say, "Heck yeah! That makes sense!"

And admittedly there is an element of revenge involved. It may be wrong, but I do relish seeing loud radical leftist dems become powerless and finally being required to conform to the orders of Trump, a man they hate like no other. The man they tried to totally destroy, take his assets, put in jail, and, indeed, tried to take his life......is now the most powerful man on earth. It's historic! And I love it.

From: bigeasygator
02-Feb-25
I mean you’ve been right about so many of his political decisions and maneuvers.

What have I been wrong about?

From: scent
02-Feb-25
If Trump weren't macro we would be the minority being run by Jeb Bush and The Turtle... he makes people cringe with cold heart truth... elections have consequences.

02-Feb-25
"What have I been wrong about?"

Let's just start with what you think is his obsession with the the border, illegal immigration, illegal alien crime (which you can't wait to remind everyone happens so infrequently...after all, the "data" says so), and deportation.

You still have not come to the realization that those things...in large part...are why he was elected in such a resounding fashion.

Add to that how Trump has had his finger on the pulse of America in terms of woke social issues like transgender ideology (something that you have told us all makes up such a small part of society that it doesn't really matter) and it is obvious that you have been flat out wrong on what is important to the American electorate.

Now, add to that your insistence that DEI is not at issue with this plain crash and yet again, it is obvious that you can seem to understand that one's perception is their reality.

Economy...same thing. You can harp about the "data" all day long and it means nothing to the average American people's perception.

Trump steers the perception and therefore many people's reality...and that's pretty much all that matters in politics. Your "data" on the micro level is irrelevant.

Chess vs checkers.

02-Feb-25

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
Host Jake Tapper asked Duffy if DEI practices were in any way tied to the accident in Washington, D.C., where a military helicopter collided midair with a commercial passenger jet.

“So I do know that, in the last administration, they were focused on not safety, but they were focused on changing the name from cockpit to flight deck, or notice to airmen, they want to change it to notice to air mission,” Duffy said. “They focused on E.V.s and sustainability and racist roads, things that don’t matter in regard to safety.”

“Our mission since the start has been safety,” he said. “And they have lost that mission. And we see, when you don’t focus on safety and you focus on social justice or the environment, bad things happen.”

From: itshot
02-Feb-25
anybody who watches the aviation channels clearly sees the pattern here

people in places where they otherwise don't belong

dei is just the tip of the iceberg, imo, but at least it's visible

From: bigeasygator
02-Feb-25
You still have not come to the realization that those things...in large part...are why he was elected in such a resounding fashion.

I know that it’s exactly why he was elected. Doesn’t make my opinion about immigration wrong, Ricky.

Add to that how Trump has had his finger on the pulse of America in terms of woke social issues like transgender ideology (something that you have told us all makes up such a small part of society that it doesn't really matter) and it is obvious that you have been flat out wrong on what is important to the American electorate.

It’s been clear that on the things that were important to voters in electing Trump, it was immigration and the economy. Everything else was distant third. Regardless, that also doesn’t make my opinions “wrong.” Beginning to think you don’t understand how opinions work.

Now, add to that your insistence that DEI is not at issue with this plain crash and yet again, it is obvious that you can seem to understand that one's perception is their reality.

And until an investigation presents evidence that it was a contributing factor, I’ll change my mind. So far none has been presented clearly showing a link between DEI policies and the helicopter colliding with the jet.

Economy...same thing. You can harp about the "data" all day long and it means nothing to the average American people's perception.

People can perceive what they want to perceive. It doesn’t mean they’re right, Ricky.

You’ve failed to say how I’ve been wrong about anything; you’ve merely highlighted that I disagree with people that supported Trump on a handful of issues.

If the Democrats flip Congress in two years does that mean I’m now “right?”

02-Feb-25
You go right ahead being right BEG, and you’ll keep wondering why Trump keeps notching political wins. LOL

From: CaptMike
02-Feb-25
Ricky, when you realize there is only one opinion on these pages that matters, only then will you have learned how opinions work! THAT is how opinions work in the mind of the over-emotional, left thinking know-it-all. Lol!

03-Feb-25
"Ricky, when you realize there is only one opinion on these pages that matters, only then will you have learned how opinions work!"

Like the saying goes, “everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”

The "intellectual class" tends to severely underestimate Trump. He throws out the bait with some seemingly preposterous thing like taking the Panama Canal back, or buying Greenland, or tariffs, or whatever the case might be, and the usual suspects take the bait and totally freak out. While they're freaking out...negotiations are happening in the background.

Having a wrong opinion isn't a bad thing. I have them all the time. Being completely incapable of admitting it is pathological.

Have you noticed that most of the Bowsiters that were taking every opportunity to say that Trump had no chance of ever being POTUS again, or that he was finally going to end up in prison, or...or...or... are all of a sudden above talking politics?

From: bigeasygator
03-Feb-25
You go right ahead being right BEG, and you’ll keep wondering why Trump keeps notching political wins.

There is nothing about Trump’s political success that causes me to wonder. Nothing about it is surprising.

03-Feb-25
What is it then Jason? If you aware of all this then what point are you making?

03-Feb-25

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
"The "intellectual class" tends to severely underestimate Trump. He throws out the bait with some seemingly preposterous thing like taking the Panama Canal back, or buying Greenland, or tariffs, or whatever the case might be, and the usual suspects take the bait and totally freak out. While they're freaking out...negotiations are happening in the background."

Case in point...

Secretary Of State Marco Rubio Scores Big Anti-China Win During First Foreign Trip

"Panama will not be renewing a key infrastructure agreement with China, the Central American country’s president announced after meeting Sunday with U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio, according to The Associated Press (AP).

President Jose Raúl Mulino said Panama would not be renewing its agreement to participate in China’s Belt and Road Initiative, according to AP. Belt and Road is an infrastructure pact which serves to grant China a massive level of influence over countries throughout the world. Mulino made the announcement following months of pressure from President Donald Trump over issues raised relating to Panama Canal access. In December 2024, Trump threatened to demand the canal — which was built by the United States — be returned to the U.S. if China was allowed to continue exploiting it."

From: bigeasygator
03-Feb-25
What is it then Jason? If you aware of all this then what point are you making?

The point is that the reason for Trump's success is clear. Ricky seems to be thinking I don't understand it or am surprised by it - I understand it and am not surprised. However, I also think that election results are horrible gauges of whose opinions are "right" or "wrong."

From: CaptMike
03-Feb-25
I also think that election results are horrible gauges of whose opinions are "right" or "wrong."

Other than your own opinion, what other opinions are "right?"

03-Feb-25
"There is nothing about Trump’s political success that causes me to wonder. Nothing about it is surprising."

I might be mistaken (I can admit when I am) but it seems to me you were one of those over on the Bowsite main forum that was saying about a year ago that Trump had no chance of ever being POTUS again.

From: bigeasygator
03-Feb-25
I might be mistaken (I can admit when I am) but it seems to me you were one of those over on the Bowsite main forum that was saying about a year ago that Trump had no chance of ever being POTUS again.

You would be mistaken. You're confusing me for other posters.

03-Feb-25
If that is the case, I stand corrected.

From: Beendare
03-Feb-25
Stats are in on air traffic controllers in the US;

I saw a stat that something like 285 of the 313 major airports that use ATC's are understaffed....while qualified applicants go begging. Ricky nailed it with the DEI hiring practices implemented by Obama.

Not only that- think about it, this is the case- WITH EVERY FEDERAL AGENCY.....it's no wonder our government is such a mess.

From: bigeasygator
03-Feb-25
while qualified applicants go begging. Ricky nailed it with the DEI hiring practices implemented by Obama.

That were ended over six years ago that Trump said he fixed. ATCs are understaffed for a variety of reasons.

From: Beendare
03-Feb-25
So the DEI hiring was stopped eh BEG?

Congress called the FAA on this many years ago.....but we shall see if the Liberal DEI policy continued past the common sense mandates. Care to wager BEG?

I'm willing to bet the Biden admin looked the other way and allowed the FAA to continue their bad policy of prioritizing DEI hires in the same way he broke the law and continued to forgive student loans....and continued to commit treason allowing hardened criminals and terrorists into the country for a political agenda.

The Bet; I say the FAA continued with their DEI hiring agenda excluding qualified applicants....and you say no they didn't.

Let's make it an interesting amount.....something serious...a put up or shut up amount, eh?

04-Feb-25
”That were ended over six years ago that Trump said he fixed.”

Trump “fixed” a lot of things that were re-broken again during the Biden admin. So what’s your point?

Lefties have no problem whatsoever not enforcing or ignoring all together laws they don’t agree with.

From: CaptMike
04-Feb-25
Hmm, anything change in the last 6 years?

04-Feb-25
”That were ended over six years ago that Trump said he fixed.”

Trump “fixed” a lot of things that were re-broken again during the Biden admin. So what’s your point?

Lefties have no problem whatsoever not enforcing or ignoring all together laws they don’t agree with.

From: Mpdh
04-Feb-25
I was one of the members who thought Trump was not electable, but admitted I was wrong. I will also admit that I have voted for him 3 times, because I feel he is the lesser of 2 evils. In spite of voting for him I do not worship him, he is just a man and makes mistakes just like everybody else.

From: Beendare
04-Feb-25

Beendare's Link
Interesting article on Newsmax, "Air Traffic Control Staffing shortages" at link, excerpts;

And yes, this understaffing circumstance correlates with reported numbers of dangerous evasive aircraft encounters.

In 2023, after a series of close calls at airports around the country, the FAA commissioned a study that found that inadequate air traffic control staffing, combined with outdated equipment and technology, was "rendering the current level of safety unsustainable."

The report observes that with "fewer eyes on the airspace … the opportunity for mistakes in instruction is multiplied," noting that there were about 1,000 fewer fully certified air traffic controllers in August 2023 than in August 2012, despite more complexity in the national air space....

The most recent data from the FAA shows that across all airport towers and terminal approach facilities nationwide, only about 70% of staffing targets were filled by fully certified controllers as of September 2023. When controllers-in-training are included, that rose to about 79%.

Some control towers at major airports around the country — including Philadelphia, Orlando, Austin, Albuquerque and Milwaukee — had less than 60% of their staffing targets filled with certified controllers. Reagan Airport (DCA) had about 63%.

According to NASA’s Aviation Safety Reporting System (ASRS), anonymous DCA controllers and pilots reported at least 50 incidents of aircraft being forced to move out of the way of other planes or helicopters in the past 10 years.

Notably, by comparison, most other of the busiest airports in the U.S. had less than five reports detailing near-misses between planes and helicopters in that timeframe.

Miami, which sees about double DCA’s passengers per year with only 60% of its target tower staffing filled with certified controllers as of 2023, reported about three dozen incidents requiring aircraft to take actions to avoid collisions over the past 10 years.

At least 10 ASRS reports submitted by controllers included concerns about staffing, work schedules or fatigue in the last year alone.

One controller in Southern California wrote, "We have been short-staffed for too many years and it’s creating so many unsafe situations."

A controller in Northern California said, "We are already on forced six-day work weeks working overtime every week," with still another controller in Northern California adding, "This leads to controller fatigue very quickly. We need more staffing."

05-Feb-25
"ATCs are understaffed for a variety of reasons."

Are you suggesting that DEI isn't one of them?

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