Press Release
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE June 11, 2015
Contact: Chad Stewart, 517-641-4903 or Ed Golder, 517-284-5815
NRC approves 2015 U.P. antlerless deer hunting restrictions
The Michigan Natural Resources Commission today decided to eliminate the harvest of antlerless deer during the archery season for hunters using deer or deer combo licenses in the Upper Peninsula.
The restriction, which does not affect the firearm deer season, will be in effect for the 2015-2016 season. The NRC made the decision at its monthly meeting in Monroe, Michigan, in an effort to aid the Upper Peninsula’s struggling deer population, which has declined to a level comparable to the early 1980s following three successive winters with severe conditions.
There have been roughly 5,000 to 6,300 antlerless deer harvested in the U.P. by archers over each of the past four years.
Although deer regulations currently are on a three-year cycle, elements such as weather and disease can cause regulations to be reviewed mid-cycle and adjusted when appropriate.
“The NRC asked the DNR Wildlife Division to present options to address the decline in deer in the U.P. and associated concerns by hunters,” said DNR deer management specialist Chad Stewart. “In May we brought forward six possible options, and the NRC chose to concentrate on two of those options.”
The NRC’s decision makes deer and deer combo licenses used in the archery season “buck-only” licenses. The other option considered by the NRC was to maintain the current regulations.
“Deer hunting is an important tradition in Michigan’s U.P. and a big economic driver for the entire state,” said Natural Resources Commission Chair John Matonich. “This decision by the NRC will ensure that tradition continues while also providing prudent protections for the U.P. deer population.”
The winter of 2014-2015 brought significant snowfall before the start of the firearm season, which persisted to depths of 20-30 inches across much of the region. Additionally, temperatures of -10 to -20 degrees arrived in February, further stressing animals that had limited mobility because of the deep snow.
These latest wintry conditions followed the winters of 2012-2013 and 2013-2014, which were extremely hard on the U.P. deer population.
The DNR Wildlife Division polled neighboring states on their recent and future deer seasons, and found those states also are reducing antlerless quotas or opportunities to take antlerless deer during specific seasons.
“We will be working to communicate this information to all who hunt in the Upper Peninsula,” Stewart said. “We’ll need to make sure hunters everywhere are aware of the change because once they cross the Mackinac Bridge the rules for their 2015 deer licenses will change.”
Antlerless harvest still will be permitted through the allotment of private-land antlerless licenses in deer management units where it was decided that antlerless harvest should be maintained. This includes DMUs 055, 122 and 155.
Deer and deer combo licenses can be returned for a refund and new licenses could be purchased prior to the start of the deer seasons. After Sept. 20, the licenses are considered “used” and cannot be returned. To learn more about the process for returning licenses, contact DNR licensing staff at 517-284-6047 or [email protected].
For more information on hunting seasons and regulations, visit: www.michigan.gov/hunting.
To stay up to date on regulation changes like this, sign up for DNR email updates to get important natural resource news sent directly to you, when it’s happening.
They'll immediately switch from no does harvested in the U.P.,,,,,,
To eradicating all deer within a set radius of the infected deer........
Our deer management seems to be a mess right now in Michigan.....
I sure hope I get a bear tag. I might not even buy a deer license this year.
If next winter is mild, they'll say, "Look what we did!" If a had winter, they'll say, "We need to do more, let's close the late archery season."
Then, they'll say, "The buck to doe ratio is out of whack because the bow hunters are shooting all the bucks. We need to shorten their season. No bows in November."
Is it over the counter for a particular DMU in the U.P? Or is it a draw?
What I am getting at is this, if U.P. deer hunters that hunt with both a bow and gun cant shoot a doe with a bow will they just shoot one with a gun?
The Gun only hunters got what they have wanted for a long time here.......
And they will not let this go at a 3 year or so fix..... Then give archers back the opportunity to shoot does..........
They will try with all their might to make this permanent......
MARK MY WORD.
Guess it is better than nothing.
With all the advancements in technology, special seasons, and increased predation, we have to reduce hunting opportunity and give the resource a break. This will ebb and flow with populations.
Nobody has to shoot a deer every year, or even deer hunt every year. Have to get rid of the serial deer killing mentality.
True bowhunting is a seriously dying sport, taken over by technology and crossbows. Compounds paved the way, thank you!!!!!
Gun hunters should yield too, agree with RL.
If you think they haven't hurt archery the next time you are in Jays, Cabela's or Gander Mountain ask the clerk about the sales of crossbows. I have and everytime they say, can't keep them on the shelf.
It brought out the want to be bow hunter. I have a disabled buddy who uses and crossbow and rightly so as he is disabled. He is a longtime bow hunter. His words on using a crossbow, "it's a turkey shoot". Up to 40/50 yards it is like pulling the trigger on his .06.
Crossbows are wildly effective, as are 90% let off compounds. Do not care for either.
In my opinion.... This is something the gun hunters pushed because they PERCEIVE that with the advent of crossbows,,, The archery season hunters are decimating the herd before they get a crack at them with their rifles....
In reality,, This will only reduce the harvest by about 5 or 6 thousand does......
A number that DNR biologists called insignificant.....
If Gun hunters are so adamant on protecting a small number of deer,,, Let them take a hit too.....
Eliminate the harvest of ALL DOES (NO DOE PERMITS) in the U.P.,,,,,,
And limit the gun hunters to one tag........
But NOOOOOOOOOOOO............ The gun hunters had no changes.......
Like I said....... Mark my words,,,,, Gun hunters will push to make this change PERMANENT.
At a min they should have the gun hunters make some sacrifice. Maybe not an even one but something.
What am I missing in all this that gun hunters should not need to pay a price at all but archery takes the whole load? Sure there are only 3 DMU's where antlerless deer can be taken with a gun during regular firearm but they can during late and early firearm as well but its my understanding that archers can't take an antlerless deer in any dmu period. Right?
If so that's wrong on a few levels IMO. If a gun hunter has the permit and can take an antlerless in a dmu during a firearm season then any archer should be able to do so during early/late archery seasons too then inside those same DMU's. Its my understanding they cant even in those designated antlerless available DMU's. Is that correct?.
Unlike antlerless tags, archery tags and combo tags are not DMU specific and therefore cannot be controlled. The last thing you want is to harvest does in the DMUs that can least support it, which is exactly what could happen with archery tags and combo tags. If you want to shoot a doe, and the DMU you hunt in can support it, buy an antlerless tag.
KPC
They aren't.
If you hunt in an area that can support antlerless harvest, tags are available for that, and you can use the legal weapon of your choice.
If you hunt in an area that cannot support antlerless harvest, you cannot harvest an antlerless deer, regardless of the weapon.
The restrictions are the same for every hunter.
KPC
Bill was just pointing that out to me on another thread. For some reason I was under the impression that archery hunters could not take an antlerless deer even in the 3 DMU's where there are antlerless tags available but if a gun hunter could get a private land tag to do so they could in those 3 select DMU's .. If archers can take one during archery in those 3 DMU's too then I don't have an issue with this decision given the deer problem they are having in the UP. If they cant then I would I guess..
Does anyone know how the early and late antlerless firearm season will work in the UP this year? Do they even have one now? If so what DMU's and what are the restrictions if any?
Antlerless tags are not, and to my knowledge have never been weapon specific.
That's why I don't understand the uproar. If you hunt in an area that can support antlerless harvest, knock one down with whatever legal weapon you choose. If you are in an area that cannot support antlerless harvest, ALL hunters, regardless of weapon, are in the same boat.
KPC
KPC,
Yes I agree. Makes me wonder if some guys were thinking the same as me and that there were DMU's where gun hunters could get an antlerless tag but archery was being cut out entirely for 2015-16.. I know several who did think that actually.. That's the impression I had until now myself.. If that was actually the case or perception I would guess it would rightfully cause an uproar.
Lew,
How do bow hunters have the advantage? Gun hunters still harvest more deer than us and they do it in a fraction of the time.. They even have an early/late antlerless firearm season too..
I don't disagree we're all in it together and we need to have shared sacrifice for the betterment of the deer population but I don't think archers have any advantage.. Just my take or opinion..
That is what opinions based on rumor, hearsay and misinformation, especially misinformation that is intended to deceive, often result in.
As hunters, it is OUR responsibility, each and every one of us, to educate ourselves, and not rely on the opinions of the "experts" that often have an agenda of their own.
These aren't secrets. Every bit of this information can be seen in the current hunting digests. If we choose not to avail ourselves of such information, we deserve whatever some special interest group decides to shove down our throats, or worse yet, slip in the back door.
KPC
Let's rely on the DNR Biologists that we pay good money to manage our herd......
And stop managing our herd by whatever organization strokes the NRC the most.........
KPC,
Even the press release is a little vague or confusing to say the least.
"The Michigan Natural Resources Commission today decided to eliminate the harvest of antlerless deer during the archery season for hunters using deer or deer combo licenses in the Upper Peninsula."
"The restriction, which does not affect the firearm deer season, will be in effect for the 2015-2016 season"
"The NRC’s decision makes deer and deer combo licenses used in the archery season “buck-only” licenses"
Here's the confusing part.. "Antlerless harvest still will be permitted through the allotment of private-land antlerless licenses in deer management units where it was decided that antlerless harvest should be maintained. This includes DMUs 055, 122 and 155."
One could easily read that press release and believe the firearm guys might get to take antlerless in selected DMU's if they get a antlerless tag but archers wont.. On top of any early or late antlerless season.
By the way look at the date on that presser.. When was the digest for this year made available? Just sayin'...
BIG BEAR or anyone that knows.. What is the policy this year for early and late antlerless firearm in the UP. Are they going to have one?
Unlike antlerless tags, archery tags and combo tags are not DMU specific and therefore cannot be controlled. The last thing you want is to harvest does in the DMUs that can least support it, which is exactly what could happen with archery tags and combo tags. If you want to shoot a doe, and the DMU you hunt in can support it, buy an antlerless tag. "
DING DING DING - we have a winner. KPC, you are a voice of reason who understands what has happened versus the bowhunters who think they got shafted and the gun hunters gave up nothing. The gun hunters already could NOT kill a doe with a combo tag while we bowhunters could. What else should gun hunters have to give up? We already get first and last crack at all deer and get the rut. We can buy antlerless tags in zones where they are available like the gun hunters can. We have it so good but we are elitists and want it all.
Weapon of choice does not matter when you are trying to allow a herd to rebound.
"The restriction, which does not affect the firearm deer season, will be in effect for the 2015-2016 season"
"The NRC’s decision makes deer and deer combo licenses used in the archery season “buck-only” licenses"
"Antlerless harvest still will be permitted through the allotment of private-land antlerless licenses in deer management units where it was decided that antlerless harvest should be maintained. This includes DMUs 055, 122 and 155."
*******************************************************
I have to say hammer, those statements are crystal clear to me. Nothing whatsoever vague about it if you take the time to read what it says.
No harvest of antlerless deer on the archery and combo tags, but on the stand alone archery tags it will be business as usual, which is by any weapon in the appropriate season. That is why they said "Antlerless harvest STILL will be permitted..." (emphasis mine).
KPC
However, it won't be because of crossbows, loss of habitat, predation, or excessive winter kill. It will be because of the continuation of other social regulations that, by design and intent, put an undue amount of pressure on antlerless deer.
KPC
They just "controlled" the combo licenses for the entire U.P.
See how easy they can change directions and gain control. They just do it.
And except we bow hunters get first crack. Seems we forgot about a few special any weapon use seasons prior to bow season and that has made a big impact on Oct 1 hunting. The deer get wised up real quick after two days of shooting at them in Sept.
Kevin you are correct about the bowhunter is about to get the shaft. This is how it starts. They started with the xbow test season and you see where that went then they had the youth hunt which has expanded to the mentoring hunt. The government just nips away until they get what they want.
If hunting is so bad in the U.P. then shut the entire season down for a year and let them rebound.
Sorry but apparently I'm not the only one who was a bit confused on what all this meant exactly. The digest reference right now would not apply..
Apparently some of us just are not as sharp as others.
One thing I think this will all do is snowball into the future..
Happy,
Bow hunters are NOT elitist IMO.. But that's just my take..
Lew I don't disagree with you..
But you will not hear that from the UPSA and the gun hunters.....
Because quite possibly,,, their REAL agenda is to outlaw the harvest of does by archers PERMANENTLY.
With these new regs, bow hunters have the exact same harvest opportunities that gun hunters have, (in terms of sex) only we have them for 5 times as long.
What more should we expect, especially when the herd needs to be rebuilt in certain areas? Are we really that greedy?
KPC
Be interesting to see what archery season looks like 5 years down the road.
What more should we expect, especially when the herd needs to be rebuilt in certain areas? Are we really that greedy? "
You once again nailed it Kevin and are a voice of reason.
Lets eliminate out of state hunters for a year to help build the herd up in the U.P. If there are not enough deer for us Michigan hunters, out of staters should be the first group to be eliminated from hunting in the U.P.
Lets do away with the youth/mentoring season to help build the herd up, in the U.P.
Interesting stat would be, how many deer are killed with a gun in that short two week period of gun season compared to that much disliked 5 time longer bow season. I would venture a guess that many more deer are taken with a rifle than a bow.
I understand what you are saying. My point that I was trying to make was and that your sidekick agreed with as you wrote, DMU's are controlled by doe permits and not combo license and in this case, that is not true. They just turned the U.P. to a no doe combo license with a bow. = they controlled the combo licenses in the U.P.
"are we really that greedy" Not at all, I haven't killed a deer with a bow in 3 years, by my choice. And last year I saw more deer than I have in years.
If the herd in the U.P. is as dire as some of you are making it out to be......
Put up or shut up........
Support the closing of deer season completely for a year or two......
Funny,,, The guys who really aren't interested in shooting a doe are the ones most quick to outlaw it......
Protect the does for us buck hunters........ Sheesh...
The Michigan Bowhunters Association strongly urged the NRC not to approve this........... That should say something to BOWHUNTERS in our state.........
Well not that I disagree with Kevin but it also takes us 5X as long to kill a deer than a gun hunter. Days afield is heavily skewed in the archers favor for a reason.
Gun hunters in 2-3 weeks take more than what archers take in 90 days.
They having a early or late antlerless season in the UP? From what Im seeing the answer is No? Except in a little part of one DMU?
BB,
How has the early/late antlerless season worked in the past for the UP? I never paid much attention to it. Mostly cuz I never hunted early antlerless anyway.. Just curious if the UP has had them in the past and how many DMU's were open to early/late antlerless in the past? Or has it always been basically shut down for early/late?
The fact that you are seeing plenty of deer is nice. Thankfully however, the DNR doesn't base it's entire management plan on what you happen to be seeing from your stand.
I for one would be more than willing to forego my opportunity to shoot a doe with my bow if it meant letting the herd in my area rebound. Oh wait, I've already been doing that for a few years now.
KPC
If the herd is so devastated;
1. no out of state hunting licenses, leave what ever hunting is left for residents.
2. no does period, which means no doe permits for anyone, no youth or mentoring does.
3. establish a winter feed assist program like they used to have.
Then check things out for next year and if things don't get better up there then enforce the above listed another year.
So this doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever !!!!
What a complete shock.......
Would you be more than willing to shut down deer hunting completely in the U.P. if the deer herd needs to rebound ?????
At this point... I am..... 100%.
As to youth and mentored hunters, I am all for allowing them to have their choice. If it means getting more kids involved, you bet. If the herd can only support me or a child shooting a doe, I don't need to shoot a deer that bad that I would take the opportunity away from a child.
Sorry BB I'm not going to argue with you. Let me just say that I am "willing" to let those that know more about the ENTIRE situation than me make the decisions.
I chose to forego the harvest of does in my specific area, even though public land antlerless permits have been readily available in my DMU. Because I fully understand that what is happening in my neck of the woods isn't necessarily what's happening a mile down the road, let alone an entire DMU or a whole peninsula.
KPC
You're WILLING to make all these huge sacrifices.....
But not willing to forego YOUR deer hunting. Yep.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
That's what I've been saying all along.... Rely on the Deer Biologists that we pay good money to manage our deer herd.
Not the UPSA. Not the political organization that yells the loudest to the NRC....
The BIOLOGISTS.....The same ones that said that this would have no effect on helping the herd rebound.
But not willing to forego YOUR deer hunting. Yep."
Apparently you missed the part where I said I've already done that...voluntarily. I'm just not sure how much more clear I can be.
The last couple seasons I have not filled a antlered or antlerless tag, even though I've had the opportunities on both. I've let all does walk because the numbers are low in my area. I've let numerous legal bucks walk in the hopes that my daughter would get a crack at them ...and she didn't. It's not about me BB. It's about what I happen to believe is best for the future.
It's ok if we disagree. I can sleep just fine if we do.
Good luck this fall.
KPC
I think it is clear that the deer #'s in the UP are suffering. Though I haven't paid close attention to everything up there the one thing I recall just on this site alone is how bad the deer #'s are there and how a hard winter or two then devastates things A LOT making it very bad... Hell I was planning on taking a 1 week trip up there to hunt while visiting my mom just across the bridge in Emmet county.. Not now I'm not.. It seems to me we had the prefect storm with severe long duration severe winters on top of perhaps some long term mismanagement to go along with it..
Now that I got some facts about this reg change I happen to agree that IF the true #'s are very low then this reaction is probably for the best so things recover as fast as possible but still do allow hunting..
I do also happen to agree that out of state hunters should take a back seat to residents in situations like this and allow residents to take advantage of what they pay for and where they live over anyone else. Especially since no antlerless deer can be taken..
I agree as well that no youth should be able to take an antlerless deer if things are so bad that antlerless tags are being stopped. Kids are special and needed for our future and they should get 1st crack IMO but they should NOT be able to "kill whatever they want" when there is not the #'s to support it.. I am a staunch supporter of the youth hunt but no kid should be able to take an antlerless deer if the whole region is on antlerless lockdown already due to low #'s
I agree with BB on the deer biologist should be making the recommendations too.. Perhaps Jim Jswee could pipe in here on this part..... How did this work exactly? I cant see the biologist just counting deer and saying the #'s are low and to do what the NRC sees fit... Are our deer biologist NOT making recommendations or is it that each time they do they are completely ignored? On this case specifically it would be nice to know what they said..
There must be some verifiable info on what the Biologist in the UP had to say about this and what their recommendations were right?
Here's the thing. I don't profess to know all the answers. Heck, I don't even profess to know all the questions.
What I do feel pretty confident about is that if you are in a DMU where the deer population is substantially below the carrying capacity of the habitat, killing more does by anyone is not the way to rebuild the herd to a more acceptable level. Acceptable to all parties involved, the deer, the habitat, and sportsman.
In my opinion, the UP deer population is where it's at not because of anything man has done (crossbows, overharvest, too much pressure on does, too many seasons, etc.), but primarily because of what nature has done (back to back devastating winters). In retrospect, you can argue that certain things man did had a contributing factor, but without the blow by nature, populations would still be within acceptable ranges.
The DNR continually walks a tightrope between the porridge being too cold, too hot, and juuuuussssst right. They can do everything right, and nature, the only part they can't control, can put a wrench in the whole thing and change the entire playing field. We saw EHD do the same thing in certain DMUs in southern MI. Because of that, antlerless harvest was immediately adjusted in order to attempt to allow the herd to rebound. I heard no complaints about that, yet when winter causes the same thing, certain people scream bloody murder.
Go back five years. The DNR could have made the decision to take less does overall, and if the winters ended up being milder than normal, instead of harsher than normal, we would have populations exploding. Not good for the deer or the habitat. Instead, it went the opposite way and we are having to deal with the opposite.
I appreciate the fact that they are willing to act quickly to try to remedy an obvious low population problem. I wish they would do the same thing in my area, however I realize that as much as I may not like it, the conditions on my particular land and the section that surround it might not be indicative of the DMU overall. So, if there is going to be any changes, it will have to be voluntary. I'm OK with that and that's what we have chosen to do.
This whole thing reminds me of the old saying:
"If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging."
KPC
"A fool has no delight in understanding, but only talks for the sake of argument. The world says it this way but he say's it that way. Let him talk, for if you give a fool a shovel he will dig his own grave."
As far as crossbows, archery season, ect. times have changed. If you go back to the seventies, harvesting a deer with a bow was a big deal before baiting, treestands, compounds, DVD's, trailcams, ect. all became prevalent. We essentially have a homogeneous season now. Early doe gun seasons, youth hunts, crossbows in archery season, muzzle loaders with rifle like accuracy and pelleted powder/sabboted bullets (my brother in law uses one after using a compound for years and his comment 'there's nothing to it, pull the trigger after putting the scope on the deer and it's over'). The pressure is there constantly now and it's not about more opportunity for a bow hunter/cap and ball muzzleloader that has limited impact on the resource anymore, but about limiting harvest of deer.
This has been coming for years, so we shouldn't be surprised. Next up, less and less land open to 'free' hunting and more leased areas that are heavily posted and managed for trophy deer along with a one buck rule again.
So with that I'm good with the DNR implementing a plan to help the UP herd recover..
I happen to know from 1st hand experience that it does NOT take very many hunters to have an impact on an area. The area surrounding one of my hunting areas was pretty much void of very many deer and with persistence on the mantra of "don't shoot a doe" for the past 7 years we have made a monumental difference IMO.. Or at least we sure think we have because now we have deer everywhere and had to start taking some does out.
I also know that in our area we could have continued shooting does and got antlerless tags like people had for years because the DMU overall has enough deer to support that but our little 5 sq mile area didn't have enough to support that because the herd had been smacked in the past to the point that there just wasn't very many deer at all..... Had we stayed on that course most of the hunters in the area would still be dissatisfied... Now their not dissatisfied and all we really did was convince 'most' guys to just not shoot a doe for a few years.....
I know my case down here is not a fair representation either because my land and many others who hunt with us have land that backs up to a small metro park which is a safe haven for the deer.. We knew this going into it.. The point is that in just a short time when hunters come to an agreement that it can sure have a positive impact..
You don't kill does and they survive they'll drop fawns. Every doe that's killed wont.
I guess we could sit here all day and discuss, argue, hurl insults and make snide comments about what got us to this point, but the fact remains that we are here, and so what are we going to do about it?
The way I see it, due in large part to some devastating winter kill and poor fawn recruitment, much of the UP is substantially under goal as far as the carrying capacity of the habitat. Not all areas, but a lot of them.
In an effort to let those areas rebound, the powers that be have made the decision to temporarily eliminate the ability for antlerless deer to be harvested via the archery and combo tags. The reason they did this is because neither of those two tags can be targeted by DMU like a stand alone antlerless tag can. The last thing they want is for bow hunters to be harvesting does in areas that can least support it, and that is a distinct possibility given the structure of those two tags. Are there other things that need to be done in terms of habitat, license structure, hunter behavior etc.? Sure, but a 10 year plan doesn't do much for an immediate problem. When you have a compound fracture, you need to stop the bleeding before you set the bone.
I wish they would do the same in the DMU where my land is but as I said before, apparently they feel that a large part of the DMU is not suffering the low deer numbers that my area is. I get that. My habitat, and the habitat immediately surrounding mine, is not the best habitat.
I'd gladly give up the ability to shoot a doe with my bow for a year or two if it meant letting the herd in my area rebound. Unfortunately for me, even though I've chosen to do that, those that hunt the public land next to me might not feel the same way, not to mention that the new antler point restrictions in my area have put even MORE pressure on the does.
KPC
You don't feel the management practices of the DNR had any real impact on the UP herd and that is basically all about the winter only? Just wanting to clarify you position on that.
I'm not looking or willing to argue that point but rather just curious as to how you see it. Based on your well thought out post to me I think you feel winter kill is the culprit.. I don't disagree it has a huge impact but I personally feel there's much more to it than that and minor changes in years prior could have staved off what we see now.. I could be wrong though... Heck I probably am wrong actually..
I guess for me it has a lot to do with what I hear hunters say about areas like the UP or the northern most parts of northern MI and how the herd is managed in those areas and what I saw for so many years hunting in N MI..
Everything from management practices to recent regulation changes, to hunter behavior has had an impact. However, if you were going to single out one overwhelming culprit, in my opinion, it would be the impact of back to back severe winters. Had we not had those, all the other contributors would not have brought us to where we are now.
It's a little like saying lack of exercise is not good for a person, nor is smoking, or too much fast food. However none of them mean much when you drive your car 100 mph into a bridge abutment. In this case, back to back severe winters is the bridge abutment.
KPC
Question... Looking from now back to the 80's (this is the timeframe the DNR says the herd now compares to)how bad did the last 2 winters compare in the UP? I know we had a record winter 2 years ago like pretty much everywhere and then this past winter in the UP was tough but in recent memory has there been two winters back to back that come close to comparing to the past 2?
I ask because I can sure remember some horrible winters in Northern MI and seeing the reports how the UP was just being smashed but I don't recall 2 back to back quite like the past 2.
I guess 1 is bad enough but when you add a 2nd one in a row it sure would cause issues...
I live in deep southern MI and many said the winter from 2 years ago would not hurt the herd here all that much but they were full of crap IMO because I happen to see the evidence of dead deer unlike I had ever seen in our area over 7 years plus the few years I hunted here b4 I purchased this land... The deer in spring really look bad and skinny and gaunt looking.. Worse than I had ever seen here.... We were worried our sacrifices would all be in vein....
Now we only had 2-2.5' of snow on the ground for about 5-6 weeks straight which is wayyyy abnormal for here and we had record cold temps that killed trees and bushes but that along with a late spring (I think that's the key here for 2 years ago) put a hurting on smaller or weaker deer.. We found 7 dead deer of which 2 were adults in late spring and usually we might find up to 2... Add to it the reports from other hunters in our little area and all in all we estimated about 15-20 dead deer now from spring 2 years ago. That's just in the bedding grounds within 2 mile of my hunting land in .. If it did that here (for whatever reason) I can only imagine how bad it is in the UP when 2 back to back winters hammers the herd
Lew: During my conversation with a member of the NRC this morning one of the things I brought up was the youth/mentoring season. He told me that these changes will not affect that part of the hunting season. I asked if the reason for the no doe kill on the combo tag was to improve the deer herd then why wasn't the no killing of does across the board. I mentioned that killing one doe results in one to four dead deer next spring depending on how many fawns the deer taken would have produced. He just said that was one of many things brought up and they decided to let the youth/mentoring season continue.
So is this combo restriction strictly to bring the deer herd back up to par or is there an underlying reason. I think we all know that is how the DNR starts to change things, slowly.
I think we all saw how the experimental crossbow season ended up.
I also mentioned how the APR has improved our hunting and he was interested in the results that we saw in our area.
So I guess it is what it is and the dead horse has been beat to death!!
Another person who gets it. Well stated Lew. If you want the herd to rebound, you let does live. That is common sense. Bucks do not add to the equation much at all. It is about the does. One doe does not = one deer. There is the propagation. It is not a coincidence that the MDNR will issue unlimited antlerless tags in the CWD zone. Not any specie tags, just antlerless tags.
This is not about screwing bowhunters. The legislature had already enacted on this issue. Antlerless tags were made unavailable in all but 3 DMUs in the UP prior to this year and it will be the same in 2015. That affected gun hunters the most because bow hunters could still use their archery tag and the combo tags. Now we as bowhunters are being asked to do our part and many don't want to put any skin in the game. And as Lew said, if and when the herd rebounds, the MDNR will be issuing antlerless tags like candy like they do in Menominee County where a person can buy 5 of them.
This is only my opinion, but I'm guessing that the actual impact of such seasons is so small, that they feel the benefit of getting young hunters started far outweighs any negative impact that it might cause to the resource.
From the looks of actual 2013 hunting effort stats, my guess is that the DNR considers the impact of those seasons to be statistically insignificant.
KPC
It really wouldn't happen much, if any quicker. Buck harvest has very little impact on overall deer populations.
However, if it got to the point where populations were SO low, that they felt a complete moratorium on deer hunting was necessary, (which actually happened at one time in this state) I would indeed support it.
However, I'd much rather do it this way so we never get to that point again.
KPC
Gun hunters are not sacrificing anything. Everything is the same as the last couple years.
For those hunting in the units that will be having antlerless tags available, an archer can harvest a doe on the regular or combo tag. Historically, these units amounted to about 20% of the archery doe harvest. So, the 5000 to 6300 antlerless deer that they say will be saved, is actually 4000 to 5040.
Youth hunters will not be able to harvest an antlerless deer.
I find it ironic that some of the same people that are in favor of this were asking archers and youth to let the bucks walk and harvest a doe. They were also saying, "If you want meat, just shoot a doe."
Deer cannot be stockpiled. Saving deer will not help if there is another bad winter.
They tell us current deer numbers are similar to the early 80's. Well, by the early 90's, there were too many deer. The winters of 95-96 of 96-97 devastated the herd. The one thing we learn from history is we don't learn anything from history.
We are fortunate that the option to eliminate the late archery season was taken off the table. I expect, however, that this year's decision will not be good enough and the gun hunters will require it in the future.
I hate this infighting!
Good point Keith. This has been a concern of some from the beginning. It's one of the potential "unintended" consequences of social regulations that are designed to protect bucks. (I put "unintended" in parenthesis because in actuality, they are totally intended, and expected)
When you take the segment of the deer population that has the least impact on overall deer populations off the table, (yearling bucks) more pressure is inevitably going to be put on the segment of the deer population that has the MOST effect on overall deer populations, in an effort to fill the freezer.
The "if you want meat, just shoot a doe" mantra has consequences, especially in areas that are below population goal to begin with and have few, if any antlerless tags available.
A lot of those hunters that would have normally filled their freezers with a yearling buck during bow season are now filling it with a doe during bow season...even if the population in DMUs that can't support additional doe harvests.
OOPS...nobody saw that coming.
KPC
"Deer cannot be stockpiled. Saving deer will not help if there is another bad winter. "
But saving deer will help with a mild winter. This much us true, a dead deer can't breed and help bring the herd back. A live one has a fighting chance to add 1-3 deer to the landscape. Why not err on the side of caution? I doubt the NRC just took this suggestion and said "yeah, this sounds cool, let's do it". There is lots of merit to the decision which is temporary.
"Gun hunters are not sacrificing anything. Everything is the same as the last couple years."
Correct. They have ALREADY sacrificed and were the first to do so.
The DNR(s) need to be dynamic and make modifications due to the ever changing landscape, weather, predation, involvement, etc. They can't just stick with the same old same old. They have to be nimble. They do this all the time in the fisheries area changing limits, season dates, etc. Things change and sometimes people have to sacrifice now for the future. I continue to use Lake Michigan as an example. Stocking has been cut for many years now to save the alewive population and that has lead to decreased catches and will continue to. We are all sacrificing now to help the future.
Maybe I'm just stupid.......
But protecting does from archers will protect what...... 5,000 does,,,,,, Right ???
Shutting down the season would protect all those does.... Plus all the does that there are going to be permits issued for in the 3 management areas......
Plus all the bucks that would be killed across the board........
So,,,,,,, Let's say that's 65,000 deer that will be killed in the U.P. (I have no idea how many TOTAL deer were killed in the U.P last year..... I'm just throwing out that number because I'm having a difficult time deciphering the deer harvest report).....
You can talk does. Vs. bucks all you want......
But if the U.P. is in dire need of repopulation the deer......
Protecting 65,000 deer sounds like a heck of a lot more than 5,000.
Happy.... The way I see it.... Those of you who don't shoot does anyways....... Who are willing to throw out shooting does by archers..... But make NO other concessions........ are the selfish ones.
OK here it goes... If the "overall deer population" is very low in the UP then that means the Buck population is very low too.. Right? Of course it is because even without man made interference we know ratios in a natural herd sit at around 1.5:1 OR 2:1
Sooooo.. If antlerless are off the table and bucks get 100% of the pressure will there still be enough bucks left to breed all the available does no one is allowed to shoot? We all know that for years its always said kill all the bucks you want because the does get breed anyway by the surviving bucks but that's in a healthy herd with tons of #'s but will that apply in a devastated herd like the UP now has?
I know winter kill is the biggest factor in all this but I guess what I'm wondering is if all the does in the UP are being breed and dropping fawns or if there has been a problem with that there in the past... IMO bucks and fawns have the worst chance of surviving hard winters anyway especially after the rut so if you take a ton of bucks out and leave the does with fewer bucks to do the breeding what will that impact be?
When the UP has had similar back to back hard winters and the #'s dropped what was it that the DNR did to allow things to bounce back? Has there ever been a time where all the does were off the table and bucks got 100% of the pressure?
I think the U.P. is in dire need of habitat improvement......
And once my land contract is paid off next year,,, I will look into doing my share by following through with my forest stewardship plan that is in place.
True, but does anyone know what next winter will bring? Of course not, it would be easy if we did. I hate to see thousands of animals suffer if they don't have to. We need to keep the deer numbers low until the habitat is improved.
Not quite. You protect the 5000 does and all their offspring, and their offspring, and their offspring, and...
KPC
Ozoga says those are the first deer we should be shooting (Fawns)......
I'd be much better off with all of this if the DNR would simply leave deer management to the paid deer managers (Biologists).....
Not to the armchair quarterback wannabe biologists who yell the loudest to the NRC......
Like every one of us here.
You do know that they strongly opposed this..... Don't you ???
I still think it is a way for the NRC/DNR to change the archery hunting seasons and this is just the start of it. They start out small, nip away here and there and the next thing you know this experimental change is permanent, kid of how the ole crossbow thing started if you remember.
Lot of young one's post on here that haven't been around as long as some of us and they haven't experienced the changes, some for the good and some for the bad.
There are a few facts we all have to take into consideration.
1. no one can control the weather 2. on one can snap their fingers and change the habitat 3. most of the habitat is out of the control of the state. 4. The DNR is mostly self funded. Stop selling licenses and the department goes away and all the biologist with it. 5. Each deer season is a new situation and may require rule changes to fit the new situation.
The DNR is not targeting bow hunters by eliminating most of the doe hunting in the UP. It is a reaction to the situation on the ground this year. BB, I can see your frustration but just remember that rifle hunters have had to go into a draw to get an antlerless permit since 1952 and bow hunters have had an automatic doe license since bow hunting began. Now for a portion of the state, they now are equal with regards to doe hunting but we still have a 90 days season. I have no doubt that when the situation improve in the UP, bow hunters will have their automatic antlerless permits back.
Take the scope off and use pins and let people rock away if that's what they want..
We hunters argue over the dumbest stuff.. Me included in the past.. Just sayin'
Thank God I came to my senses in time recently.. A few life altering things sure can give a man perspective on what really matters in this life
Well, in the UP this year, they aren't. That's the point of making the regulation change for this year Jon.
Had they NOT made the regulation change, and everywhere else outside the UP, every combo license is good for two does during the archery season, and every archery tag is good for one.
So, in reality, even if a DMU is issuing zero antlerless permits, public or private, there are still going to be the potential for hundreds, if not thousands of does being harvested. Combine that with the fact that in many areas, most yearling bucks have been taken off the table as "meat deer," more pressure than ever is being placed on does.
KPC
That would be true for DMU's that are at or close to the actual carrying capacity of the land. However, because of two back to back severe winters, this isn't the case for much of the UP.
I've been bow hunting in MI for close to 40 years. I've been around long enough to know that one of the biggest complaints that hunters have had over the years is that the DNR is too slow to react. They drag their feet, and by the time they get around to doing anything it's usually too late.
Now, when the NRC is being proactive in an attempt to stave off what could be an even more serious situation, people are screaming bloody murder because they may have to give up shooting a doe for a season or two.
As to your other question about MBH and MTB, I agree with some of what they advocate for, and I disagree with some of what they advocate for. I prefer to do my own research, and make decisions for myself.
By reading these threads, it is clear that some people just default to what someone else, or some other group says, and they totally rely on them to make their decisions for them. Some people do this without ever having read, or thought about things for themselves. That is evidenced by the fact that we often have to spend days and countless posts attempting to explain what a regulation ISN'T before we can decide whether what it actually IS might be beneficial or not.
KPC
Because they are. You are against the doe kill in the restricted areas because of lack of deer but you are for a certain group to shoot does in that very same area.
You are either for it or against it.
Do you mean the group that is shown in to be pretty much statistically insignificant? Apparently the DNR feels that the miniscule number of does taken by that particular group is worth the long term benefit of exposing them to the sport. I tend to agree that if someone has to back off for a year, it should be the adults.
"For it or against it" doesn't tell the whole story Jon. When you look past the emotional aspects of it, it becomes a matter of what actually matters and what doesn't, and what is beneficial to long term.
KPC
Who said I don't shoot does? I never said that. I typically will let me son do it. What other concessions do you want me to make? I already said, maybe 100 times, that I would give up the season if it came to that. This is becoming ad nauseum.
"Plus all the does that there are going to be permits issued for in the 3 management areas...... "
You can't imclude those DMUs because they have loads of does. I could have killed dozens if I wanted the last 8 years I've hunter in Menominee. There is a reason they still have tags. ""But saving deer will help with a mild winter."
"True, but does anyone know what next winter will bring? Of course not, it would be easy if we did. I hate to see thousands of animals suffer if they don't have to. We need to keep the deer numbers low until the habitat is improved. ""
Well hell, let's assume every winter will be harsh then and just kill every deer so none "might" suffer until all the private land owners get with the program and improve their habitat and the State and Feds make major changes to their land. Maybe by 2100 there will be a hunting season again. There is plenty of great habitat around the UP.
"Are any of you guys members of Michigan Bowhunters Assoc. ???? "
Why would I want to be when they are not looking out for the betterment of the deer herd like many others are? I render my own decisions based on my research and knowledge. I've also read enough here from members who belittle others based on their weapon of choice. This is not a conspiracy against bow hunters as some want us to believe. This only affects the UP which is an entirely different animal than the LP much like northern WI is very different than the rest if WI and is being managed differently too.
Mojostick has posted a lot of good info on the related thread over on the leatherwall......
He and John Ozoga seem to think that just because the summer deer range in the U.P. can support more deer,,,,, The deer yards absolutely cannot....
Mojostick has posted extensive information that indicates that we shouldn't be protecting more deer to yard over in yards that can't support them......
John Ozoga said that we should be killing fawns in the U.P.,,,, because fawns are going to be the first ones to die in already overstressed deer yards.....
I've been bow hunting in MI for close to 40 years. I've been around long enough to know that one of the biggest complaints that hunters have had over the years is that the DNR is too slow to react. They drag their feet, and by the time they get around to doing anything it's usually too late.
Now, when the NRC is being proactive in an attempt to stave off what could be an even more serious situation, people are screaming bloody murder because they may have to give up shooting a doe for a season or two.
As to your other question about MBH and MTB, I agree with some of what they advocate for, and I disagree with some of what they advocate for. I prefer to do my own research, and make decisions for myself.
By reading these threads, it is clear that some people just default to what someone else, or some other group says, and they totally rely on them to make their decisions for them. Some people do this without ever having read, or thought about things for themselves. That is evidenced by the fact that we often have to spend days and countless posts attempting to explain what a regulation ISN'T before we can decide whether what it actually IS might be beneficial or not. "
Kevin hits yet another one out of the park. Well stated Kevin.
And I've been around long enough to know that the NRC uses way to many outside influences other than their paid wildlife biologists, in enacting laws on game management.
I've been reading some of what John Ozoga had to say on the subject over on the Leatherwall....
He seems to disagree with you guys from what I'm reading.
Vs. that of the winter deer yards........
I think that we could all agree that it really doesn't matter how many deer the normal summer ranges of the U.P. are able to support.......
It is the deer yards that must sustain the deer through the winter. It really doesn't matter if the land around my property can sustain X amount of deer in the summer....... Because come January,,, there won't be a deer within 30 miles of my property.
For how many decades have the U.P. Whitetails Assoc. been driving by the deer yards all winter and pouring corn out onto the roads so the deer survive ??
Because the deer yards can't support the deer. The diminishing quality deer habitat is the problem. My forest stewardship plan says it all centers around the loss of aspen forests in the U.P.,,,,,
If the aspen is not cut when it is mature.... It has a relatively short life span.... The aspen dies and gives way to shade tolerant pines..... Bad for deer..... My stewardship plan says that is what is happening across the U.P.
Mojostick has posted a lot of good info on the related thread over on the leatherwall......"
I understand that. Mojostick loves to cut and paste articles that support his arguments. For every biologist or expert that you can find to say one thing, you can find another biologist or expert that says another.
Like I said, I like to do my own research, apply it to my own experiences and common sense, and make my decisions based on that.
I really don't need MBH, MTB, QDMA, or Mojostick to tell me how or what to think.
Like I said before, we can disagree...it's OK. At the end of the day we are all have to follow the regulations in place whether we agree with them or not. I'm living with some right now that I don't agree with. Join the club. Life goes on.
All the best plans and theories in the world don't mean much when mother nature decides she's going to do something different. It's just deer hunting.
KPC
I believe we should kill more deer and not less. Will it make hunting harder? Yes. Will it make some hunters quit or go hunt somewhere else? Yes. Will it take many years to rebuild the habitat? Yes, maybe longer than our lifetimes. Will it ultimately create a healthier deer population? Yes.
Like I said, I like to do my own research, apply it to my own experiences and common sense, and make my decisions based on that.
I really don't need MBH, MTB, QDMA, or Mojostick to tell me how or what to think."
This is all about PERCEPTION.......
The perception of gun hunters that all the deer are being killed in the early archery season, with the introduction of crossbows.......
And this was a huge win for gun hunters.... If any of you think that the gun hunters intend for this to only be a 2 or 3 year fix until the herd rebounds.....
I have some swampland in Florida to sell you....
They will want this to be a permanent fixture....... And some of you bowhunters are buying right into it...
I'll be very interested to hear what you guys have to say 3 years from now when and if the herd has rebounded......
And the U.P. Sportsman's Alliance lobbies to keep this new rule in place.
You ole cynic you.. Let me guess.. You believe they will turn this on its head and say see what happens to the herd when those evil archers are brought under control? lol..
I see it coming too.. Don't mean they will succeed but they'll try
With that said, and being in the woods just about every day from Sept to April, Mojo is living in a fantasy world, when it comes to wolves and the UP....
I do agree coyotes are tough on the herd, but they always been here, they have always been tough on the herd, but there has been controls.......
Most studies from the DNR and Feds when it comes to wolves, I take with a grain of salt, and do not believe it all, since they are all on the same PC page, and have to be careful with what they say....
You can shape any study the way you want, but the facts are, the wolves are killing machines, and this year, I am going to shoot photos of what I find in the woods..........
John Ozoga I respect, but can you imagine, having hunters legally kill fawns, heck, most of them can hardly differentiate, a fawn from a mature healthy 2 year old doe, or a small spike, in low lite.....
John is dead right when it comes to winter yards, deer need more habitat, for a chance to survive, and if they go into the yards in good shape, most can handle the predators.......
yes nature is going to take a lot of weak deer, but if you do not kill them, at least there is a chance for the herd to grow,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
but what do I know,,,,,,,,,,,,, now I am going trout fishing
