Contributors to this thread:
Crossbows now legal for everyone in IL
Directly from IDNR's facebook posts:
Governor Rauner has signed Senate Bill 1467 making crossbows a legal archery device for hunting during archery seasons. This is to be effective immediately.
Doom and gloom, I tell you. Doom and gloom. LOL
Seriously though. There might be some slug gun hunters who try them out. More likely a whole lot of existing bowhunters will get lazier and swap out over the next few years. I suspect the overall success rates wont change too much. If you were a poor hunter before changing the shooting tool wont suddenly make you a good one. I do however think people will be tempted to shoot farther than they might with a compound (who as a rule tend to shoot better at distance than most stick bow enthusiasts). I do think over time it might help bring more kids into the sport.
If the state really wanted to step up the hunting pressure and drive sales up, a simple flip to allow large bore straight wall centerfires like other states have done would do the trick.
Aside from deer, the one area where this may in fact become an issue is turkeys. There are a lot of spring turkey shotgun hunters who might decide to take up a crossbow for the fall. The bow season is much longer and not nearly as limited.
Lots of guys, not only gun hunters will try it. I know of a "disabled" guy who has used a crossbow for years, he couldn't shoot a bow for crap, but put a crossbow in his hands and he has shot 8 to 14 deer a year for the last 5 or 6 years. So I do think it will result in the harvest of more deer. I am not opposed to crossbows, so yes I am going to try it, I shoot a re-curve instinctively and shoot a compound as well, and I do not look down upon guys that shoot a compound with 80% let off. Its just another weapon and an another opportunity to shoot a deer. What ever weapon you choose, be proficient, know your maximum effective range and put the arrow in the right spot. I be the bow hunting community had a fit when the first compound came out and was legal for hunting. We as hunters and outdoorsmen have more things we should worry about than what weapon we use. I have a 12 y/o that cant quite pull back 40lbs yet, he is excited about getting to bow hunt finally. I really don't see how using a crossbow will make you lazier. You will still need to practice, and walk to the woods to hunt. Are compound shooters more lazier than re curve shooters?
Zim1 is going to blow a gasket. I hope he takes His mediation before starting a crusade of phone calls and petitions!
Hunters need to have a united front despite the legal weapon they choose to have in their hands.
Zim1 has all the answers for all of Illinois' problems, just ask him. The problem is not to crossbow, but the mind set that I need to kill 8-14 deer a year. It's not that DNR issues x number of tags, its that they're filled, most times with button bucks and 2 year olds. If we control and police ourselves, it won't matter what the weapon of choice is.
I found one of his public land spots over the weekend... I just followed the trail of used tissues. 3...2...1...
As for my opinion, I don't necessarily agree with crossbows being allowed in the archery season. In my opinion the benefits are minimal, and the motives questionable. Yeah you might get a kid into the archery season a year or two earlier, but it in effect just instills in some kids that they can simply take the easier(est) route. Surely that societal trend levels off somewhere, but that is only my hope. For others it won't make a bit of difference I imagine. I could go on, but in reality it isn't the end of the world, or hunting as we know it.
I'm pretty stoked about it. My wife has used one due to a disability that could result in broken bones while drawing a vertical bow. Hence, I've helped her sight hers in and shot it a bit...long story short, they're really fun to shoot. I have a couple of spots where I hunt that I can't get a good treestand in, but using a crossbow on the ground could be lucrative...I fully intend to take her crossbow out this year. She won't be hunting seeing as how she's expecting our 2nd child Nov 1. I may not like it, I may love it...but either way I will definitely give it a shot.
Declining deer herd + Paul Shelton(The Liar) + Crossbows + Illinois??? Doesn't surprise me in the least. 8^)))
Newhunter asked for thoughts. I gave mine, glad you don't agree Stephens. That's alright with me. 8^)))
Other states have had allowed crossbows for years and they still have deer herds. It was more your comment about Mr. Shelton, blaming one man for any decline in the herd in your area. Insurance lobbyists have more influence than he does. Did he bring EHD or CWD to Illinois? Does he force you to shoot 2 or 3 does a year? Does he recruit hunters from Cook County to come down and shoot 2 1/2 year old bucks? There are a lot of factors that go into the "plan". To blame one person is missing the big picture and will not accomplish anything. We need someone to blame and hate, but it won't help anything.
jstephens, I put Shelton in there as a Liar, which he is. I talked to him, and brought a few lies he told, to his attention, and you could've heard a pin drop. He would not answer. If you re-read my post, i called him, for what he is, A LIAR. I didn't say ONE word about him being the problem. He is part of the problem, without a doubt. The list i gave in my first reply, tell me what did i say in there, that isn't a fact? Shelton is a, yes man puppet, on a string, for the Ins Co., and Farm Bureau. Shelton will not stand up against them. The money them two feed him is too sweet. You can't rely on hunters to manage their own herd. This will NEVER happen. If the permits are so easily available, they are going to shoot as many as they want.
SIB: The minimum pull on a legal bow was reduced to 30 pounds earlier this year. Tom
I thought there'd be more doom and gloom forecasted with the news:) The crossbow, aka x-gun, topic has been beaten to death many times on Bowsite. I've participated in some of those bashing sessions. From now on I'm just going to sit back and laugh. To each their own.
Zim1 has his heart in the right place. He wants a good hunting experience for everyone. Its just a difficult thing to get on public land in Illinois. Big deer and solitude don't mix here. Once the word gets out, there will be people crawling all over your special spot and doesn't take long to get shot out. Its just the nature of such small parcels of open land. We have all experienced it - pull into a parking lot and find it is... Well, a parking lot! Full of trucks and guys out in the woods we had carefully scouted. So new rules that ease the transition for more hunters to get out and kill deer just strains the public resource. I truly is a non issue for large private land owners. How the manage is their own prerogative though whacking the doe population has not necessarily been the positive QMD promised in most areas. Plus after all the hard work tuning equipment and practicing its somewhat disheartening to see a novice punch a bunch of bolts into a tiny target with ease. Its either cheating or we've been doing it wrong lol.
Maybe we need a thread about which new crossbow we are going to use? That might stir up more fun than a good old rage debate. ??
When I started bowhunting 15 years ago I was a young guy 33 and strong. I could pull back an 85 lb bow and thought why not. I did that for about three years and sold it, but the damage was done. Prior to that I was in the Marines and army for 1o years as an infantry man humping pack that weighed more than me. I was young and didn't listen to the older Marines about not trying to be hercules...but the damage was done. After the Marines I was an over the road trucker for a moving company. I was that guy who would throw a hide-a-bed couch on his back and hump it to the house to "save" time. Many of the older truckers tried to warn me, and of course I didn't listen and the damage was done. After becoming a teacher, I joined Martial arts. I studied Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Judo for the last 20 years. I thought I was listening to the older martial artists, but again I'm hard headed. One knee, one shoulder surgery, twice both knee ligament torn, multiple injuries to both shoulders...well the damage caught up with me. I could not even pull back my bow last year and I had to go to a crossbow. I didn't even get to shoot a deer with my bow and luckily i got one with my shotgun. It's been 9 months since my last shoulder surgery, and I can barely pull back my compound or my recurve. My permit would run out on October 25, and I doubted that a doctor would sign their name on a permit request...was literally told one doctor didn't want their name on anything going to the state of Illinois in case they were audited. Now I do not have to worry about getting to the doctor.
Semper Fi brother. Been down the same road, they trained us to be bulletproof. If you want to use a crossbow to stay in the game, then by all means, go for it. You'd be welcome in this neck of the woods anytime.
Listening to compgun shooters complain about xbows is laughable. You guys are spewing this tripe about xbows that was spewed when compguns hit the market. It makes shooting easier so why do you guys who use compguns complain about something that you yourself are doing, making it easier? Lol
it is funny that the same argument traditional guys use against compounds the compound guys use against crossbows, both are lame.
Wildlife managers should be managing our deer, not politicians. How have politicians done with the Illinois budget? Oh ya first state in the country to attain junk bond status + highest combined taxes in the US + #1 in population loss.
Ya sounds like a plan.
Percentages: bow type used for harvest = Xbow : 2005... 3.87%
2011......8.34%..... Last data I had....
Through Sunday, November 5, 2017, Illinois archery deer hunters harvested a preliminary total of 27,703 deer, compared to 22,985 for the same period in 2016.
Cumulative harvest to date has consisted of 52% does and 48% males (14134:12939). During the past week, harvest sex ratios were 36% does and 64% males as rutting activity increased.
Top five counties were Pike (892), Fulton (771), JoDaviess (613), Adams (596), and Jefferson (588).
Looks like deer population is back up
Is the population up? Or are that many more hunters in the field now?
Lynn Wilcox, could you please give a link to where you found that information. I used to have it on my old computer but it took a crap and now that I have a new computer I can't find it again. Thanks!
Keep in mind this legislation took effect AFTER our hunting regulations were published. So many if not most folks were unaware of it. Next year will certainly be higher. But we have nothing to worry about. Why would we possibly not trust Illinois politicians to manage our deer herd?
around here everyone knows it, word spread like wildfire, a factory that my friend works at, he knows of 11 guys that bought crossbows to hunt with for this fall, that's a pretty good increase. Im sure the archery harvest numbers will be several thousand higher
Hunt&fish....that old Xbow info is not published online anywhere I know. Like a lot of hunting info, our IDNR likes to hide the true facts from everyone. That bowhunting data was requested from the IDNR, posted in the UBI's newsletter & emailed to me by a friend.
The new 2017 data was posted in Dale Bowman's article this week.
I expect the buck harvest Increase to be even higher then the total increase. Other states that legalized Xbows showed significant buck harvest spikes. The long range Xbows will put the hurt in IL buck population, for years to come.....8^(
a friend of mine shot a nice buck with a crossbow, but when he posed for the pictures, it had his compound in it......hmmmmm guess he is embarrassed to show it.
I know that the opinion I'm about to give, will not settle well with some. It hasn't in the past, but I'm not going to get into an argument over it, but, Something to keep in mind. Years past, in the Archery rules and regulations, provided by the DNR, this is not the exact wording, but it was to the effect, that you could not use any device that would hold a compound, drawn. Unfair advantage to the deer. Now, we have cross bows. So what made the DNR change their minds??? I know, "$$$". Crossbows will have a very negative impact on our, already plummeting deer herd. You don't have to worry about getting busted on the draw. So why would our DNR, allow this into affect, without a fight? Hmmm. I know. I don't have a problem with people with disabilities, using them, but cross bows, used by able bodied people, should be in gun seasons, only. It's time that our DNR do their job, manage our wildlife, instead of money to dictate, how they do their job. JMO
Any data to show crossbow legalization decimated a whitetail herd in any state?
Lynn Wilcox's Link
Sureshot Exactly!!!! All the doom and gloom but it has not happened anywhere else that crossbows have been legalized. I guess Illinois will be different than all the other states. I don't use a crossbow and don't care who does. I'm pretty sure it wont be the end of deer hunting in Illinois.
Monday, November 13, 2017
Round 6 Archery Harvest Numbers Stay Above 2016 Numbers
"From this time last year harvest totals have an increase of 4,789. This is the final round before the orange army (shotgun season) hits the field."
The numbers tell the story boys & girls .......
Just got back from my annual week long hunt in White county. For the first time, I hunted with a crossbow. I had bought one a few years ago when I had some hand surgery, but never really hunted with it. I'll tellyou, anyone who thinks it's an advantage should try hunting with one. They are heavy and awkward in the stand. It actually cost me a shot a nice buck when the buck heard the safety slide off. It was absolutely no advantage when I had a a really nice buck walk within 35 yards right at dusk. They do not make anything automatic. You can't shoot every deer you see. I had shot opportunities on probably 60% of my sits last week, but in the end I killed just as many as I usually do with my compound-0. Granted, that's my choice, but it was eye opening to me to find that the crossbow didn't give ME any noticeable advantage.
As suspected folks are migrating to the easier, more efficient tool. Looks like a bunch of hunters are indeed trading in their compounds for crossbows. (I doubt it's longbow or recurve shooters.) I do suspect it has helped some with the overall numbers but until I see success rates I would hold judgment on whether this is a bunch of gun hunters extending seasons (significantly more archery tags sold) or existing bowhunters killing more deer (similar tags to previous year). I do believe the weather has been more cooperative and maybe there is some bounce back from EHD. I think if the gun totals are flat while archery is higher for the season we will know for sure.
Regardless the bell is rung and the crossbow will be in Illinois to stay. As I half heartedly joked a few years ago, 80% letoff & release aids will join round wheels & tabs in the obsolete bin where feather fletched wood arrows & stick bows still have a following.
By the way I've shot a couple different crossbows. They are loud and slow to span/load so aint nobody getting a second shot if they miss. Plus unless its equipped with a crank there is no way someone will safely draw one of these things in any treestand I have ever owned. There are definite differences in design. The really powerful compound designs are fast and accurate but very heavy/awkward compared to regular bows and even firearms. However the recurve crossbow I handled was much more ergonomic by comparison. Its a good foot shorter and not super heavy so the idea that they are all bulky is wrong. Don't see myself giving in to the temptation any time soon. Still too attached to my Wing and Grizzly. Besides since moving to Alabama I really only get 3 weeks of bow season to enjoy before the 3 month rifle season kicks in.
Bentstick81, I'm quite sure the ILDNR had absolutely no say in this matter. This crap was drummed up by three thoroughly greased politicians, each having zero wildlife management education. They were the ones who took the coin to further exploit a tapped out public resource. I'd say the chance that any of these cheats ever hunted at JEPC was slim and none. And slim just left town. I'll be paying a personal visit to the one in Wheaton as soon as I conclude my quality Iowa public land deer hunt ~December 1st.
Those who think there will be no impact are delusional. Indiana public has taken a big hit since their adoption 5 years ago, and they weren't protecting their rut from guns prior (16 day peak rut Nov. shotgun season). Illinois has protected all but 3 days in November for decades. HUGE difference. I've seen truck loads of nonresidents packing crossguns cases at the hotels on I-80.
Zim1, your spot on about public here where I hunt in Wisconsin its made a big difference, if your hunting public your quality of hunt will be going in the tank,and soon.
Numbers dont back up the gloom and doom with an increasing herd and picture perfect weather. Sorry zim wrong again.
While this State definitely has it's financial problems and mismanagement of many agencies is apparett, good public labd is still available. Depending upon where you live, some travel time may be required, but seeing and harvesting deer is manageable. However it is aggravating to see deer hunters run off good public land somtgat pheasant hunters can have 8 weeks of fun. Several spots where both could coexist with a little planning and good sportsmanship. Hope you all have a great 2nd half of the season and please be safe.
pete, The first half numbers most definitely do support my point. And unfortunately anyone who has experienced hunting public in a previously protected state go to crossguns does not need numbers to quantify the quality loss. Just look at Ohio & Indiana. Don't compare crap states like Tennessee & Michigan. This is flat out common sense, either you have it or don't. Hunted public in 5 different Midwest states for 25 years. I've witnessed the slide first hand.
BTW - Do you have any idea what has happened to the quality on Illinois public lands since 1990? You seriously think there are no consequences for liberalizing regulations? Illinois & Kansas too big hits on public quality when they let their doors wide open to nonresidents. To this day I still have 4 Kansas NR deer points. They will never get burned though because of what one politician did to reduce their public quality for coin. Not worth it anymore.
I think there's a hell of a lot of people that comment on this subject who do not have first hand experience over 25 years.
Was reading over on stickbow, that Ohio is making changes to their deer seasons, due to such an increases in Crossbow kills. The guy wrote," Because of Ohios high archery kill numbers, due to Crossbows, it's to be buck or doe, on all lands, till after the week long gun season. Then the last two months of archery are to be buck only, on public lands, to bring public land deer numbers back up." He also stated," Our vertical bow kill is around 39K, Crossbows around 49K. It's just too much for 4 month season. The only downside for me is, this will hurt buck quality on public land." Another guy said Wisconsin is pretty much in the same boat. Who wouldn't have seen this coming??
I don't know that I would have seen this coming but I think the challenge's hunting with a compound or recurve is what makes the reward. I will not use a crossbow unless I am physically unable to use a compound. I stick by this phrase and I always will "any deer killed with a bow is a trophy".
When it comes to gun season it is not difficult to kill a deer that walks into the field. I've killed them at 120+ yards away. I enjoy gun hunting because after 2 months of bow hunting sometimes it's nice to reach out an touch one if my freezer is empty.
As for the crossbow everyone said it's on the hunter to regulate himself. So if the herd declines we have nobody to blame but us. I know a lot of people like to blame the state but it's up to the hunters to lay off small bucks and only kill the amount of deer needed. The state does not have a limit (yet) so everyone will be acting within the rules if they buy as many tags as they want and use them all.
Lynn Wilcox's Link
"Hunters to regulate themselves"....???
Sorry but that doesn't work & has never worked.....
ALL 50 state have regulated hunting seasons & especially for deer !
Deer were pretty much killed off in this state & others, before remember....
We pay IDNR people to 'manage' our deerherd, but they are doing a very shitty job of that, unless you are the FB, or Insurance Company who love our IDNR big wigs.
BTW....after just 1 season of Xbows for all here in IL.....our IDNR is currently also looking into buck only harvest in some areas.......what a joke !!!
And YES....we warned everyone this would happen when powerful Xguns were allowed in a 100+ day long IL archery season by every Tom, Dick & Harry that can pull a trigger.... BUT, our current IDNR only cares about selling more & more tags and making $$$$$$$$$$$
Kind of pathetic isn't it
Anyone remember people saying that Ohio has had Xbows for years with no problems at all......???.......lol
Also....there is a new bill just out that is asking that "Airguns" also be allowed to kill deer in IL. This shit never ends....
Lynn, EXACTLY!. I have called the DNR, talked to Shelton, and all you get is lies, and stupidity. $10.00 phone bill, to be exact.
"Hunters to regulate themselves"?
Yes because the state is not going to. The more permits being sold means more money. What does the state need? Money! The state is going to make sure they are getting the most out of people as they can. Therefore we have to regulate ourselves. Will it work? Maybe not on some public ground.
Just think of the payroll, and retirements, we pay for, in the DNR, and they aren't doing their jobs. Us hunters have to manage our own wildlife. So why do they have a job?? They need to cut back on DNR employees.
To all you stupid jackleggs who want to blame IDNR for everything, look at the original post. The GOVERNOR signed SENATE bill. DNR May write or suggest rules but it’s the legislature that vote it into law. Go bitch to them and stop blaming IDNR. As far as payroll, no raise in the past 7 years. Retirement, paid into by employees, not an opinion. I’d be willing to bet if you had a chance to go to work for the State, you’d be on that like a rat on a Cheeto. BTW, I do work for IDNR, 30 years protecting your land and groundwater. My son, 5 years guarding you from society’s worst. So when you badmouth State employees, it’s personal. Stand up and tell us what you do, I’m sure someone can find fault in you profession.
A spade is a spade, Jstephens. No doubt you work for the DNR. You can tell by your posts. You jackleggs couldn't hold a candle to the DNR we had thirty years ago. They really wanted to keep our resources, top notch. They went to bat, for the hunters. Glad we didn't have the same, idiot mind set, in the DNR thirty years ago, like we have today, there wouldn't be deer to hunt today. Today's PHONY DNR, has done nothing but ruin a GREAT thing here in Illinois. Why don't the DNR go bitch at the legislature? It's their job. It's what you get paid to do, instead of drinking coffee. A friend, told me some very knowledgeable people went to the DNR, with paper work showing the deer herd drop in a county in Il, explained their concerns about the late season, and it pissed off the DNR, so the DNR said they were going to leave that county in the late season, just because they pissed the DNR off. This is not how you run a DNR. You PHONY ba$tards are a joke. It's nice to see YOU upset. Now you know how the rest of us hunters feel.
That jackleg also is trying to claim more big bucks have been shot here than in Iowa over the last ten years. Hey Jim, I hope you are retiring soon before this state goes broke. As far as your son, he ain’t gonna see a pension check.
Like to see names ,dates that this happened Bentstick otherwise it's nothing but rumors
Jeff, believe me when I say, I’m not upset. Nice way to start a post, with a racist comment and then profan name calling. You are somewhat correct, the IDNR of today is not the same as it was with Brent Manning, but then nothing is. The deer hunting is not as easy as it was 15 years ago, but it’s better than when I started back in 1975. It’s not IDNRs job to “bitch at the legislature”. They enact statute and laws, then require us to right rules that they then have to approve. You want to change something? Go “bitch” to the Illinois Farm Bureau and all the insurance lobbyists in Springfield. They are the ones putting pressure on the legislature to kill all the deer. Want to stop the “sharpshooters”, go to city council meeting up north and speak out against homeowners who don’t want deer eating their $10,000 landscaping. There’s more to this picture than IDNR, but you just want to resort to name calling and slamming IDNR and the employees. I get it, it makes you feel like a big man, coming on here and regurgitating what you’ve heard. You don’t have to put forth any effort, you don’t have to think. Heck, you don’t even have to be right. I have sat through public hearings and watched person after person step up and read from a scripted card. If you catch up to them after the meeting and ask them where they got their facts, they either don’t have a clue or they get mad because you had the audacity to question them. It has been asked, but I’ll pose the question again. What County are you referring to, when did this take place, who came to the office and to whom did they talk to? You brought this up, so we have a right to know. Back up your statement with facts please. Hope I’ve responded to all your comments, if I missed anything, please let me know. Have a great day.
Steve, this is my reference. Sure looks like to me, according to Pope & Young, Illinois is ahead of Iowa. If I’m not reading this correctly, please let me know. State’s not broke because of employees salaries or pensions. You might want to look at all the entitlements; Link card, free lunch programs, utilities assistance, things such as this. Thanks for your concern, but I think my son’s pension is fine. It’s mandated by the State Constitution.
BTW, Steve, Have a nice day.
Jim . I will ask my friend if it's ok to give out the guys names, first. You should be able to ask around up there, and they should be able to give you the names. Just ask them who came up, pissed off the DNR, and they got pissed and left a county open for late season, knowing good and well, it wasn't right. I don't consider what i said to be name calling, if it's the truth. So lets get this straight. Hunters have to manage our own herd, take on the Legislators, even when we can't see what is on the table, call and bitch at Insurance companies, bitch at the Farm Bureau, bitch about the sharpshooters. Anything else you want, US HUNTERS, to do, while the DNR sits there, gutless, with their tales tucked between their legs???
Jstephens61.....Over the last 2 decades I have been in lots of deer meetings with lots & lots of IDNR people, IDNR Directors, past Directors, Lobbyists, FB, Senators, Representatives, liasons, Deer Task Force meeting, IFOR, IWA, Whitetail Unlimited, IBS, UBI, NRA, ISRA, biologist, ect.....
I have ALWAYS welcomed anyone, to talk to me afterwards and asked me where I got my info & facts ? In fact, it has happened several times, because we always make ourselves available to continue any discussion after any meetings.
I and a couple of my friends have also testified in front of the House's Ag & Conservation Committee & the Senate's Ag Committee, on numerous bills & answered any and all of their questions they had. After pretty much every time we talk to the them, we hang around & answer all individuals questions they might have. So see, when I do any bashing of our IDNR's current heads & policy makers, I can do so from years & years of experience & a whole lot of first hand knowledge AND....a ton of facts to support our case !!!
You are also more then welcome to send me a PM here & answer any & all your questions you might have of me. I will even give you my ph# if you would like to talk more in depth.
Jeff, my mom and dad were married, so it was vulgar name calling. So, you don’t want to do any of the lifting, you just want the deer herd managed the way you see fit. Please refresh my memory, were did you get your biology degree? How many properties have you managed?
Well jim. I see you are getting a little dramatic. You put yourself, where you want to put yourself. That's strictly up to you. I don't have a Biologist degree, but it would be nice if the DNR would listen and use them, instead of using the Insurance Companies, and Farm bureau. You said that the two i mentioned, pretty much calls the shots on Permits, and pretty much proved that the DNR, doesn't use Biologists. Imagine that. You best go blow smoke up someone else's a$$, because you are not going to get it done with me.
Jeff, again, I’m not sure about the “two” that you mentioned calling the shots on permits. Please refresh my memory as I can not find were I said that. Lynn, I’m sure what you’re saying is true. I’m not questioning your facts or data in any way. I know it’s not correct to say that IDNR is solely to blame for the condition of the deer herd or the number of tags issued. The budget is controlled by the legislature and if they say issue more tags, more tags are issued. I’ve said before, self control and self regulation is better than having control dictated to you. I know of several “hunters” that took 12-20 does last year. Who’s at fault? IDNR for selling the tags or the people for filling them? I just get tired of the armchair game experts spout off about the poor job IDNR is doing based on nothing but their limited hunting area, that they themselves are more responsible for than anybody else. You know as well as I do that FB and insurance companies would love nothing more than to see every deer in Illinois dead. I sat in a friends home one evening and had a lobbyist tell me that there was no danger of deer hunting being outlawed in Illinois. They wouldn’t allow it. Within 4 years by their estimate, it wouldn’t be safe to drive at night. If you want something to change, don’t sit around complaining and cussing the easy target. Figure out how the system works and talk to the right people. Make your vote count. That’s the best place to start. Go to the meeting and be polite and respectful. You don’t get very far being rude and foul mouth. Go ahead and blast me all you want. I’m done with this discussion. It’s went way too far off topic. Y’all have a great day.
Jim-On the other thread you said it was the last ten years. I say no way. The thing you posted is all time totals. A look at current entries will show a different story. I realize that a lot of guys keep their kills secret, but that is the same for all states. I know a few guys statewide who consistently killed mature bucks in the past, but are experiencing the worst hunting of their lives.
"" Manning "" WAS the down fall of Illinois DNR !!! and it's got worse since!
To the public land hunter, this list is hot garbage suitable for a dumpster fire. Iowa public blows the socks off the best Illinois has to offer. Illinois public is becoming non-relevant due to years of DNR mismanagement & corrupt legislative control.
And please stop blowing smoke up folk's arses trying to say Illinois' #1 highest paid state employee salaries and $1.6 million dollar pensions bought in exchange for politician's votes have nothing to do with the states junk bond credit rating status. The state is broke due to these. It's certainly no surprise you are very familiar that these pensions are protected by state constitution. Nobody in their right minds would dare accept one of these irresponsible & unsustainable entitlements without some kind of legal assurance because it's a gigantic house of cards on the brink of collapse. I am discouraging my step-daughter from coming to Illinois for her teaching career. I just don't believe she should get involved in this state's ponzi scheme finances all drummed up by bought and paid for corrupt politicians. Hell state law also mandates teacher's contribute a minimum of 9% towards those pensions, but in fact they only pay a token average of 1.4%. What a joke. I laugh when I hear any IL state employee boast they contributed to their pensions. This is a fantasy with no real world experience depending on a 401k savings account.
Yes other government give aways also contribute to the highest taxes in the US, but statistically state employee salaries & pensions lead the way.
And here you go again. I have some free advise don't like it here MOVE. Can't wait to hear about how Iowa's mismanagement of their DNR according to you.
Zim, In response........
Nevermind, it's not worth my time.
Zim, who is your employer?
Looks like we got a few Illinois state employees on Bowsite. Nobody else in their right mind would defend these unsustainable $1.6 million dollar pork barrel entitlements private industry phased out decades ago. No problem? Just raise property or income taxes again, right? It won't hurt our state ranking because we can't get any worst than #1in taxes already.
Everybody wants sumthin fer nuthin.
First place Illinois state employees head after retiring is out of the state ASAP because they sure as hell don't want to have to contribute taxes to fund the very corrupt system they benefited from!
Illinois drops from the fifth-largest state to No. 6
llinois declined in population again in 2017, losing its spot as the fifth-largest state in the nation to Pennsylvania, according to census data released Wednesday.
Illinois lost about 33,700 residents, dropping the total population to 12,802,023, the greatest numeric population loss of any state. Pennsylvania saw a slight increase, and with a total population of 12,805,537, has outranked Illinois for the first time in years, based on U.S. Census Bureau figures from July 1, 2016, to July 1, 2017.
This is the fourth year in a row that Illinois’ population decreased, a troubling trend, according to William Frey, a demographer with the Brookings Institution.
“It’s not just a one-year blip,” he said. “And the declines continue to get bigger from one year to the next.”
The Tribune has interviewed dozens of former residents who recently left Illinois, citing a high taxes to state budget crises brought on by unsustainable state employee pensions.
Other neighboring Midwest states saw population increases during the same period, with Missouri gaining 22,356 residents, Indiana gaining 32,811 residents, Michigan gaining 28,866 residents and Wisconsin gaining 22,566 residents.
“We don’t see it in Michigan, we don’t see it in Ohio. … You don’t see this kind of sustained population loss and increasing domestic out-migration in the last few years,” Frey said. “It’s not this kind of continued dramatic decline.”
“As people leave the state, they take their pocketbooks with them. That means there are fewer Illinoisans to pay the bills,” said Orphe Divounguy, chief economist with the conservative-leaning Illinois Policy Institute. “It’s worrying because if you have a declining population and a declining labor force, you will for sure have a further slowdown of economic activity going into 2018.”
Calling the state’s shrinking population an “out-migration crisis” and a “concerning trend,” Divounguy blamed high taxes — particularly property and income taxes — as well as unnecessary government regulations, which result in fewer job opportunities and low wage growth.
“Illinois is no longer a place where people want to put down roots,” he said.
The overall U.S. population grew by 2.3 million during this period; international migration dropped 1.8 percent, its first decrease in several years, though it still accounted for 1.1 million people in the last year, according to census data.
Zim are you implying that every state employee is a leech?
Zim are you implying that every state employee is a leech?
My wife is a 20 year teacher in Illinois if we get a dime from TRS I will consider it bonus money in retirement.
As much as I dislike ZIM1 and his constant complaining he is correct about the pension shortfall. If Illinois was a private business or individual it would already have filed for bankruptcy.
The Untied States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit ruled on a case out of Rhode Island recently that is allowing Rhode Island to make across the board cuts to retirement benefits for retirees. Because like Illinois they didn't make the proper contributions to the pension funds over time and now don't have the money to pay for benefits.
Yes Illinois pensions are "Constitutionaly" protected but that is easy enough to undo. The small precentage of state workers and teachers would have a hard sell to convince the rest of the taxpayers pay more for their pensions.
I got to say...I should rename this thread to complaints about Illinois.
He never misses a change to bash the state
Zimny for Governor, he has all the f###ing answers.
Hey Jim. Thought you said you were done with this discussion??? 8^))))
Zim, who is your employer? I asked above and didn't get an answer... and no, I work in private industry not an employee of the state.
I'll answer for ZIM ... kind of .... He's a "Fed" .... and he s right about Illinois! Even though he is a 'transplant' here! ....... 8*))
So, a "Fed" calling the the 'ol kettle black. If anyone hadn't heard the federal debt is over $20 trillion, and the abuse is rampant... just like when Zim tells us how proud he is that he is scouting and hunting while being put up on his employer's dime (which is the taxpayer if he is indeed a "Fed"). Yeah, I agree with some of his points, but he never stops whining and this is supposed to be a bowhunting site.
So, the plot thickens. Federal pensions are pretty darn good. Know a couple guys in Wyoming that do the same job for BLM as I do and they make 20k more. I’m overpaid?
Federal pensions are not all good. If your in Fers system you get 1percent of your high three year salary average for each year you worked. 29 years is 29 percent of your average $60,000 would be $17,400 per year. After insurance it will be about $1,200 per month. An Illinois state worker makes at least 3 times that and they don’t have to pay for their insurance. This state is going under and nothing will be done to prevent it.
That seems to be misleading about the Fers program. My understanding is that there is more than one component to the program, and you are only detailing one part. Also a Thrift Savings component with an automatic 1% employer contribution, and matching contribution to the employee voluntary... not sure what the max. is (Okay, I checked, it's a stepped system, but it appears you can get a total of 5% of salary contributed). It is still a guaranteed pension with COL increases, albeit perhaps more solvent than the state system. Average federal employee salary (civilian) in 2016 was $89k. That's the overall average, not the average 3-year max, and way higher than the average private sector salary. Misleading posts are always fun.
If you compare a Illinois state worker to a federal worker with the same salary, the state worker will get more than 3 times what the guy in fers will get. I’m not saying it’s a bad deal for the fers guy, I’m just saying that the state guy gets a lot more. The fers guy has access to the thrift savings plan and gets matching funds on the first 5 percent in contributions. I think the state will go broke first because they can’t print money like the feds can. Everybody thinks the mailman walks away with a huge pension but if he didn’t save in the thrift he isn’t making jack. The argument wasn’t whether it was better than private sector, it is. The argument was based on Jim saying the federal worker makes more than him, he might but when it comes to retirement Jim will get more anyway unless the state can’t pay, which someday will happen. There will be ample warning before this happens. They will raise all types of taxes and try to tax there way out of the problem without cutting on spending or benefits.
Steve, I have 2 close friends that have both retired in the last 2 years. He worked for USF&W and she worked for the Dept of Interior. They made the same money that I make and their retirement is 2k a month more than what mine would be. I don’t think you’re comparing apples to apples. The only advantage I have is the paid health insurance, which is the crap state program and ends when you’re on Medicare. It’s not as great as everyone thinks it is or I’d have left in December. Believe me, if the Feds or private sector offered me a job, I’d take it.
They were in civil service which gets them 2 percent per year of service of their high 3. They do not get social security though. Even with that 2 percent per year the minimum retirement age is 55 and the max they can get is 80 percent of his high 3 average. The max a fers guy can get is 44 percent of his high 3 average. both with 40 years of service. What does a state guy get with 40 years of service? Overtime does not count for computing retirement.
Why Illinois Is In Trouble - 63,000 Public Employees With $100,000+ Salaries Cost Taxpayers $10B Jul 25, 2017, 01:26pm 355,170 views
Adam Andrzejewski Contributor
OpenTheBooks.com The 'Big Dogs' of local government in Illinois.
Illinois is broke and continues to flirt with junk bond status. But the state’s financial woes aren’t stopping 63,000 government employees from bringing home six-figure salaries and higher.
Whenever we open the books, Illinois is consistently one of the worst offenders. Recently, we found auto pound supervisors in Chicago making $144,453; nurses at state corrections earning up to $254,781; junior college presidents making $465,420; university doctors earning $1.6 million; and 84 small-town “managers” out-earning every U.S. governor.
Using our interactive mapping tool, quickly review (by ZIP code) the 63,000 Illinois public employees who earn more than $100,000 and cost taxpayers $10 billion. Just click a pin and scroll down to see the results rendered in the chart beneath the map.
Here are a few examples of what you’ll uncover:
20,295 teachers and school administrators – including superintendents Joyce Carmine ($398,229) at Park Forest School District 63, Troy Paraday ($384,138) at Calumet City School District 155, and Jon Nebor ($377,409) at Indian Springs School District 109. Four of the top five salaries are in the south suburbs – not the affluent north shore. 10,676 rank-and-file workers and managers in Chicago – including $216,200 for embattled Mayor Rahm Emanuel (D) and $400,000 for Ginger Evans, Commissioner of Aviation – including a $100,000 bonus. Timothy Walter, a deputy police chief, made $240,917 – that’s $146,860 in overtime on top of his $94,056 base salary. Ramona Perkins, a police communications operator, pulled down $121,318 in overtime while making $196,726! 9,567 college and university employees – including the southern Illinois junior college power couple Dale Chapman ($465,420) and Linda Terrill Chapman ($217,290). The pair combined for a $682,000 income at Lewis and Clark Community College. Fady Toufic Charbel ($1.58 million) and Konstantin Slavin ($1.04 million) are million-dollar doctors at the University of Illinois at Chicago. 8,640 State of Illinois employees – including $258,070 for Marian Frances Cook, a “contractual worker” at the newly created Dept. of Innovation and Technology. Further, there are the “barber” and “teacher of barbering” positions in the state prisons making $100,000+. Loreatha Coleman made $254,781 as a nurse at the Dept. of Corrections. 8,817 small town city and village employees – including 84 municipal managers out-earning every U.S. governor at $180,000. These managers include Lawrence Hileman (Glenview – $297,988); Michael Ellis (Grayslake – $264,486); Robert Kiely (Lake Forest – $255,247); Kevin Bowens (Libertyville – $254,428); and Richard Nahrstadt (Northbrook – $250,248). In total, there is roughly $12 billion in cash compensation flowing to six-figure government workers when counting the 9,031 federal employees based in Illinois.
So, who are the biggest culprits in conferring six-figure salaries? We ranked the top 15 largest public pay and pension systems in Illinois:
Recommended by Forbes OpenTheBooks.com Illinois’ largest pay and pension systems conferring $100,000+ cash compensation
Corruption in Chicago
Rahm Emanuel’s Chicago now pays out more six-figure incomes than the state government. We found city truck drivers, tree trimmers, and street light repair workers earned six-figures. But, really, the problem is the overtime. Last year, the city paid out $283 million in overtime to 1,000 employees who pocketed more than $40,000 apiece.
OpenTheBooks.com Chicago paid out $283 million in overtime (2016) - here are the top 10 city departments.
Some of Illinois’ K-12 schools are spiking salaries and padding pensions. Data reveals nearly 30,000 teachers and administrators earned $100,000+ incomes. However, just 20,295 of those educators are currently employed; the other 9,305 are retired, resting on six-figure pensions.
Here’s how it breaks down in two of 900 school districts. Just 1,236 of the 2,147 educators with $100,000+ incomes are currently working.
In Township High School District 214, there were 500 retirees receiving six-figure annual pensions in addition to 640 working educators. In Palatine Township High School 211, while 596 educators earned a six-figure salary, 491 retirees received six-figure lifetime pensions. Private associations, nonprofits, and retired lawmakers
All kinds of entities are jumping on the gravy train. Private associations, nonprofit organizations and former lawmakers have gamed the system for personal gain. All of this is legal, although it shouldn’t be:
Former state representative Roger Eddy (R) currently makes $334,433 – that’s $303,953 as Executive Director of Illinois Association of School Boards (IASB) and $30,500 from his lawmaker’s pension. Eddy is double dipping for a second government pension, and his employer (IASB) – a private nonprofit – is further burdening an underfunded Teacher’s Retirement System. Two of the highest earners within the municipal pension system work for private associations – not government. Brett Davis, Executive Director of Park District Risk Management Agency, makes $319,404, while Peter Murphy, Executive Director of Illinois Park District Association, brings in $309,972. These private nonprofits muscled their way into the government system and their huge salaries will mean lavish taxpayer-guaranteed pensions. Former Gov. Jim Edgar (R) took $2.38 million in compensation from the University of Illinois (2000-2013) and has received at least $2 million in pension payments earned from his 20-year career as legislator, secretary of state and governor. Today, Edgar receives $241,272 ($20,106 per month) per year from two pension systems: the General Assembly Retirement System ($161,016) and the State University Retirement System ($80,256). Highly Compensated Locals
County bosses are getting in on the action. In three of the 102 counties – DuPage (201), Lake (237) and Will (190) – 628 employees earned $100,000+. Lake won top honors with 237 six-figure employees. In DuPage, Tom Cuculich, the county administrator “Chief of Staff” to DuPage Board Chair Dan Cronin (R), made $201,750.
Even “water district” employees are tapping into the taxpayer largess with 1,432 employees making $100,000+. Across Illinois, 348 highly compensated “park district” employees make over $100,000.
Illinois, like many states, is in serious trouble. Policymakers are exploring desperate measures. Two weeks ago, ten Republicans voted with Democrats to override Governor Bruce Rauner’s veto of a permanent 32-percent income tax hike. Without reforms the tax hike will only feed a culture of waste and abuse.
Rauner was right to veto the income tax hike but he hasn’t shown serious resolve to curtail spending. In fact, he created a personal assistant position for his wife – who has no official state duties – for $100,000 a year at taxpayer expense.
But, hey folks, it’s Illinois!
I think we all can agree that Illinois is absolutely one of the most corrupt states there is . I didn't really understand just how corrupt, until I went to work for them.
For the record, 4% of gross comes out of my check for retirement - it was 8% when I worked for corrections. If you still believe what the media spoons out to you, then I'm sure you won't believe me, since it doesn't fit the narrative.
At one point, the pension plan actually was in good shape and feasible. Of course politicians can't keep promises or see a pot of money & not raid it. Again, this information isn't new but it is inconvenient, so it is seldom brought up. It is much easier to blame those 'terrible state workers' for expecting the state to live up to its end of the bargain. We know who controls the media so it is easy to sway public opinion by only telling part of the story. So of course the rest of the state hates us - that is all part of the plan. After all, since the politicians didn't raise taxes when they needed to (but robbed pension funds instead) all that is left is to do it now. And of course this is seen as raising taxes just to pay pensions.
And yes, about every year a nurse working in corrections will be one of the highest paid employees in the state. The government and the media wants you to think that is just base salary and 'wow they make waay too much'. When in reality the state will never hire enough of them, so a corrections nurse doubles or triples their salary though overtime much of which is mandated (as in no choice). But again, this information doesn't fit in with what politicians want you to know, so it certainly can't be reported that way!
Oh, and for the record, I love crossbows! But I am on old fart who had grown tired of the compound. Also, I don't have to hunt public land. I have done that just enough to feel for anybody that does. I have no doubt that it is not as good as it once was.
State & federal employees need to be on 401k's like everyone else.
I started teaching Jr High school back in 1969 for a base salary of $6500 and left a summer job working in a factory that would have paid a yearly income of approximately $ 5,400. After giving up 4 years of potential income while I went to college at considerable expense to me and my parents, I gained an extra $1100 a yr. I have always thought the pensions were the state's way of saying, "We know we screwed you in salary while you were working but we make it up to you in a pension when you retire.
"State & federal employees need to be on 401k's like everyone else. "
So if you were to get a state or federal job, you would just tell HR - No pension for me please, that deal is just too good......
That's what you would do, right?
I will retire from teaching on January 1, 2024 after 26 years of teaching in Missouri. I will have the rule of 80 and receive about 70% of my average three highest years. I can get more if I decide not to take a cash option or if I decide not to include my wife in the event of my death...however what I plan on doing is coming over to the dark side (Illinois) and getting some type of government job...working for a few years till I'm vested and then retiring again. I might do one of many options...1) get my certification in ASL (american sign language) and sign for students in the public education. 2) teach college in the education department of some university, 3) become a teacher in the prison system to juvenile's or adults, or 4) teach/administration in the local Illinois schools. With my Missouri pension I should earn around the 55-65,000 mark...so a second "career" to pay for insurance would be a viable option.
"So if you were to get a state or federal job, you would just tell HR - No pension for me please, that deal is just too good...... " Has nothing to do with me. Has to do with fiscal responsibility and sustainability. There's a reason you don't see such pensions in private industry. They would be broke and out of business. Called supply and demand.
Edge- the factory would have closed down so the teaching job was a good move. The state workers are far from being screwed in salary compared to private sector work and the pension is so much better than a 401k type system. In a 401k you would have to put a huge chunk of your pay in a very aggressive investment to match a state retirement. A state worker pays very little toward his pension and has zero market risk. Edge- you made a good choice but please don’t insult our intelligence by pretending you made some great sacrifice.
1boonr: "...worker pays very little toward his pension ...". I don't know how state workers negotiated but I do know how we teachers their contracts. We gave up money in our paychecks so it could be put towards our pensions because it would not be taxed as a fringe benefit by the IRS. Same with medical insurance coverage. We gave up salary$$ so the school districts could provide those benefits. Now everyone thinks the Districts gave those perks out of the kindness of their hearts when really we paid for them and saved a dab of tax money. I know cause I was a teacher negotiator for 5 years back in the 70's and 80's.
After adopting a spending cap, Illinois lawmakers need to get serious about reducing the cost drivers of the state budget and addressing unfunded pension liabilities – which likely also requires changing the state constitution. Pension costs have already risen to consume 23 percent of the state budget, up from 6.8 percent in 2008, according to the Civic Federation.
According to GOMB, growth in spending on government worker pensions and employee health insurance has far outpaced spending in every other area. From 2000 to 2018:
Spending on pensions has grown 663 percent Spending on employee health insurance has grown 215 percent Spending on preschool through high school education has grown 65 percent All other spending has grown by just 16 percent Pensions and administrative bloat are crowding out core government services.
House members should immediately reject the unfunded spending plan passed by the Senate and adopt a responsible budget in its place. Doing so would finally send a signal to Illinois residents that lawmakers are serious about ending Illinois’ fiscal crisis.
Adam Schuster Director of Budget and Tax Research TELL YOUR STATE REP. TO REJECT CULLERTON'S BUDGET
What the heck does any of that have to do with crossbow hunting in Illinois? You’re just not happy unless you’re stirring the crap or complaining about something. Please let me know if you need help moving to Iowa. I’ll bring both trucks and trailers, we’ll have you out of here in a day.
Follow the money
When it comes to property taxes, four main factors drive the pinch felt in Illinois pocketbooks: government-worker pensions, government-worker health care, prevailing-wage requirements and workers’ compensation costs.
These four horsemen of fiscal doom are all multiplied by the sheer number of taxing bodies in Illinois – at nearly 7,000 – each with its own staffing and programming costs. No U.S. state comes close to Illinois on this number.
In Wauconda, Illinois, Mayor Frank Bart sees the squeeze on middle-class residents brought by these rising costs. After accounting for inflation, Wauconda’s median household income has dropped since 2009, according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates. But property-tax bills have continued to rise.
Take government-worker pension benefits, for example, which are mandated at the state level, regardless of whether local governments can afford them.
Bart expects police pensions to cost the village over $1 million annually within the next two years. The village has 25 police employees and a general fund budget of just over $9 million.
Bart uses his second-lowest paid police officer to illustrate the high personnel costs village taxpayers shoulder. The officer has been with the village for more than 10 years, and the village pays his $85,000 salary and $15,000 in benefits annually. On top of that, taxpayers contribute $25,000 to his pension each year, Bart said.
That’s not all.
Prevailing-wage laws levy another massive blow to local governments’ bottom lines. These laws can mandate six-figure salaries plus benefits for the lucky private-sector employees who work on government projects. Bart estimates this easily adds 20 percent to project costs above what would be offered in a competitive bidding process.
Finally, while Bart said effective departmental leadership has prevented workers’ compensation costs from getting out of hand in his community, this is not always the case.
Take Williamson County, for example, which has spent $2.7 million on workers’ compensation claims over the last three fiscal years, nearly four times as much as the previous three-year period.
“… [S]ome of this is frivolous,” said Chief Deputy Bob McCurdy, according to The Southern. “We need to make an example of somebody.”
County Board Chairman Jim Marlo echoed McCurdy’s concerns, describing the costs as “eating away” at the county budget.
“It is a system that[’s] easily manipulated in this state and until you get legislative action to change the way claims are handled, the way insurance handles and the way courts handle it, we are going to be faced with this problem,” Marlo said.
Turning the tables
A major effort to stop Illinois’ sky-high property tax rates from creeping even higher lies in House Bill 4224, which would freeze property taxes at current levels unless local voters approve a future property-tax increase. This legislation is part of Gov. Bruce Rauner’s Turnaround Agenda.
But a freeze alone won’t be enough. Property taxes would have to stay frozen for the next 28 years for Illinois residents’ property-tax burden to return to levels seen in 1990.
So it is important that HB 4224 also gives local governments more flexibility in controlling costs, such as allowing cash-strapped localities to narrow the scope of collective-bargaining agreements and to take less expensive bids for government work.
Another key component to easing residents’ property-tax burden will be aggressive consolidation and resource-sharing across Illinois’ thousands of local taxing bodies. DuPage County has taken the lead in this area. Other counties should follow suit.
When it comes to skyrocketing, unsustainable pension costs, Illinois’ local governments must also be empowered to take control of their fiscal futures by filing bankruptcy. Workers’ compensation reform to bring Illinois’ out-of-whack costs in line with those of surrounding states is another essential piece of the puzzle.
Again, not one word about crossbows or deer hunting.
Dang, I started this thread to see everyone's opinions on crossbow hunting. Two days ago I just had my second surgery on my other shoulder...first one was a just over a year ago on my left one and the second one was on my right shoulder two days ago. I am seriously thinking about selling my great plains takedown recurve, and my elite judge compound since I've had my second surgery.
I'd like for this thread to get off the government spending etc and talk about crossbow hunting...shoot, I'd even welcome those that think guys like me should sit on the couch instead of taking my crossbow hunting.
Get off the couch and go hunting. It’s no one’s business what you hunt with as long as it’s legal. I wouldn’t sell the bows just yet. Had my right shoulder redone in May of ‘13 and was in Colorado September 1st. Do the PT and rehab.
Yea, my wife told me the same thing. I'm not going to sell the bows...I'm just frustrated that as soon as I can start pulling back one bow, I get another injury where I cannot bow hunt and have to have surgery. Trust me, last season I went bowhunting with my crossbow and met several guys in the parking lot of a place where I was drawn. They mentioned that I looked able to draw a bow back...I had to explain to them that I just had surgery prior to the season. I will be in the stands this year...and at the trout streams this june and july with my fly rod. I am also going deep sea fishing this July as well. I won't let this get me down.
"I'd like for this thread to get off the government spending etc and talk about crossbow hunting...shoot, I'd even welcome those that think guys like me should sit on the couch instead of taking my crossbow hunting."
Newhunter, Sadly, you cannot ignore politics and irresponsible corrupt legislators when you discuss deer management in Illinois any longer. Because corrupt politicians without any biology backgrounds do indeed directly manage our deer hunting. The ILDNR managers and CO's even admit this. They are powerless to do their jobs. These are the exact same politicians who raided the IL sportsman's fund twice under Blagojevich's watch even as you have seen his corrupt cronies crusade for his early prison release on TV this week. Like it or not, this is the reality of Illinois deer management in 2018. You can't deny this, nor ignore it.
I have absolutely no problem with handicapped people using crossguns. I almost became one myself in 2014 when I suffered a severe pinched nerve in my neck, permanently killing several muscles in my right shoulder. It took me a year to recover well enough to perform a basketball layup (not shot) LAYUP. And I will never compete for 1st place at a 3D shoot again. But luckily I can bowhunt 30 yards and less.
Paul, I had bought a Elite Pure that came with a extra set of limbs, 50#. Glad I didn’t sell them! Put them on, turned it down and started shooting. Like I said, PT. Communicate with the therapist what your goals are and stay on track. You can do this!
Thanks J...I have my post-op appointment Tuesday and hopefully get the stitches out then...hopefully. I'm doing my light exercises until then and have good range of motion. Once I get the PT order then I'll be going to that. My goal is to do some fly fishing in about two weeks...hopefully.
Newhunter, Here's a couple more examples that unfortunately clearly support my claims. I really wish I was wrong, but as you can see......... These are comical.
In fact, this property was never pegged to be open to the public. The story was totally fabricated by the politician for the sole purpose of voter support immediately prior to the election. Pathetic.
This one is embarrassingly bad, as anyone familiar with the second amendment knows it has absolutely nothing to do with HUNTING!
“This bill protects sportsmen’s Second Amendment rights and expands opportunities for them to exercise their rights,” said Scherer. “It’s important that we preserve our state’s hunting traditions and have legal protections for law-abiding hunters to practice their Second Amendment rights.”
Really??? This statement makes the self proclaimed wildlife manager politician appear to be outright retarded. I am stunned she allowed this to be published.