P&Y whitetails
West Virginia
How many P&Y whitetails have you killed in wv and how many years have you hunted them?
Killed -0- P&Y whitetails in WV.
Been hunting WV whitetails for 48 years.
Guess I'm not very good, huh?
28 years. I have taken two p&y bucks.
I have been hunting WV whitetails in WV for 46 years. I have killed exactly 0. Heck Jimmy I am no better than you. I do better in other states. Not sure why that is.
57 years and 3 WV P&Y bucks and 1 P&Y frog.
I’m 60, been bowhunting in WV for 48 years and have taken 0 PY bucks in WV. I just don’t understand ? Maybe I’m just a bad hunter?
I'm 67, only been bowhunting in WV for 9 years and have taken the same 0 P&Y bucks. Heck, while hunting, I think I've only seen 1, and not sure about it!
I'm 43 and have one that is on the edge of P&Y. Never had him officially scored. I think these answers shine a bright light on the type of deer management that WV has in place. I think it is sad that with all the years of experience and hunting hours logged among this group that has replied that only a hand full of P&Y deer have been taken and I'm sure it is not the hunters lack of ability. Sorry for the rant. I'm not trying to derail this thread but just stating the obvious. Carry on.
3 in 20 years of bow hunting WV. All in the last 4 years.
I wonder how many of these P&Y bucks are within the last 5 yrs. I know mine is.
I have been hunting whitetail in WV since 1970, I have seen one P&Y Buck and it was in back of pickup truck. LOL
gobbler, maybe you need to plant some different food plots like the stuff in Kansas and Iowa and Montana. I think that is it.
That might be it. I knew I was doing something wrong .
I'm 44 been hunting for 30 years and have killed 0.
Boys, ya just have to hunt harder and walk farther.
Zero in 20 plus years.
The only p&y animal i have killed came from Colorado in the 1st hr of the hunt. None in Wv in 40 years. I did miss my chance at a dandy this year here at my house though
I didn't know the norm became where the majority of bowhunters in any state killed a P&Y buck now. I must of missed those statistics somewhere! Maybe we are not good enough hunters....
I don’t think anyone said anything about it being the norm. However there appears to be several hundred years of combined hunting with no PY killed. And there are a lot of states where that isn’t the norm, especially in the last 15 years.
Well gobbler statements tend to lead to places and it look to me just like with your most recent statement - there are quite a few who think everyone should kill a P&Y during there lifetime - I just don’t think that is the case no matter which state we are talking about - so I will say again maybe those of us on this site are not quite the hunters we may think we are.
or maybe there are far fewer opportunities in this state for taking P&Y deer vs. other states.
Jayd, You have to admit the.members here are probably not the "norm" bowhunter in the state. Its a group of people who hunt hard, smart, and often but have not had an opportunity at a pope and young buck.
Same hunters take the same skills to other states and have different results. Its not the hunters here, its the management and hunter attitude in this state.
393 years of hunting experience and 8 pope and young deer in the thread. Roughly one for every 50 years of experience.
i think if we all live in the four counties you would see more P&y deer killed on this thread. The fact is they have more big bucks because its managed for big bucks
JayD, so what you are saying is that you feel it is an unrealistic expectation for a hardcore bowhunter in WV to kill 1 PY buck in their lifetime? Just so we’re clear, one 125 inch whitetail in a 50 -60 year period of time is a unrealistic expectation?
WOW! No wonder resident and nonresident license sales continue to decrease every year. No wonder WV hunters are choosing to hunt in neighboring states when they can.
If it’s a unreasonable expectation it’s only because the Deer herd is managed for it to be that way. That is why so many hunters want a change in magament style.
Here’s my two cents worth. I was very surprised to read the posts on this thread. Guess I’m very lucky to live in one of the bow only counties. Not many opportunities to make that statement. Over the past 30-years or so, i have passed on more P&Y bucks than anyone on this sight has killed. I’m not saying i wouldn’t have liked to have not passed, but poor shot angle was almost always the reason for passing. For those who have never shot, or even SEEN a P&Y buck, it’s a thrill to see one, much less get a shot at one. I immediately recounted 3 times when I had one within 20-yards of my stand and couldn’t close the deal. Those are not counting the bad shot angles i talked about. Those were times i just screwed up! Hunting here isn’t what it used to be, but from what everyone is saying on this thread, it’s still pretty darn good. To be honest, i don’t gun hunt. Never really did much for me. I have, however, literally spent countless days from daylight until dark in my tree stand. It’s an awesome feeling to know that any minute a P&Y buck might head my way. More times than not that doesn’t happen-but sometimes it does. Everybody has their opinions about deer management and just like in politics half the people will be mad about any decision that is made. I don’t plan to hunt anyplace else, so it really doesn’t matter much to me. That being said, just the experience of hunting in an area with bigger bucks is so awesome. If I hunt a week hard and see 1 P&Y buck- shot or not -I’m happy. I never understood why meat-eaters couldn’t eat does but, like i said, it really doesn’t matter to me. To the die hard guys who want to shoot whatever is legal, more power to you. Just be happy killing small deer. They’re never gonna get bigger if they don’t make it past their second birthday.
Gobbler I believe you are putting words in my mouth! LOL i have killed several myself - I am saying that I don’t think no matter what state we are talking about that there will be many hunters at all - that have taken a P&Y buck because it is not a typical thing to do. I don’t think most hunters have the time, patience or sad to say the skills to do it. I just think it is sad that every time I come on this site anymore it’s about putting down the hunting opportunities we have in this state. Seems to me like some of you are not pleased at all with anything in our State. I have had several deer caribou and bear scored from here and other states but I chose not to enter because to me it seems more in glorifying the hunter more so than a majestic animal that had outwitted other hunters for so many years but that is my choice and I would not down anyone else for doing it. And I think your smoking something funny if you think there is any state where it is the norm that anything other than about maybe 20% of hunters may have killed a P&Y animal during their lifetime. If there were then sometime tells me the eligibility score would be much higher - don’t ya think???
But we’re not talking about average bowhunters. We’re talking about good hunters that put a lot of time in the stand . There’s a difference between someone that hunts 3-4 days a year and the hunter that hunts 20-30 days a year. I think most people are thrilled with the majority of hunting opportunities WV has to offer but do express frustration with Deer hunting because they know it could be so much better with a different management philosophy. We’re incentivized to harvest too much of the crop before it’s mature. If you cut most of your trees for pulpwood there’s not much left for sawtimber much less veneer.
Wv lineman I would like to know to your best guess. How many P&Y and years your answer would be then. Being you are from bow only counties?
well I have killed some in other states and don't spend nearly as much time hunting in those states. maybe a week a year. That has to say something.
well I have killed some in other states and don't spend nearly as much time hunting in those states. maybe a week a year. That has to say something.
well I have killed some in other states and don't spend nearly as much time hunting in those states. maybe a week a year. That has to say something.
well I have killed some in other states and don't spend nearly as much time hunting in those states. maybe a week a year. That has to say something.
sorry about that. I do remember that about 10 years ago I saw 10 bucks in one alfalfa field in one evening. Thats right. 10. Of those 10 I know that 4 were P and Y. That is more than I have seen here in WV in a lifetime of hunting. During the bow season I hunt from the beginning till the end of the season. I hunt morning and evening 4 days a week. That is a lot of hours. While I tease a lot about killing spikes I do try to wait for some nice bucks I see on trail cameras. My point in that I think I would be seeing some nice deer if they were around where I hunt. I have literally taken more P and Y deer in other states than I have seen here in WV. Now I am just a dumb ole boy but that math doesn't add up.
No, JR it doesn’t . It’s hard to kill them if they aren’t there. There’s no doubt its gotten a little better in Last 8-10 years but with a couple of tweaks it could be a lot better
I only had two of my deer scored. I think there’s 3 or maybe 4 more that will score 125. Like i said, i know of at least 3 more that would score 140-150 i should have taken. I will tell you this-i watched a 10 point walk past me in the early 90’s that i know would net 190 typical. Ranged him at 52-yards quartering away and wouldn’t take the shot. It’s the most beautiful buck I’ve seen in my life-on tv or in pics. Can still see him when i think about it. At one time he was within 20 yards behind laurel. Figured he would have heard my heart thumping but he didn’t. lol
And small tweaks. Imagine an education campaign highlighting aging of bucks, determination of button bucks, either sex tag on base license, and of course a lower buck limit.
Realized I didn’t answer both questions. Been bowhunting for 28 years.
In my 45 years of bowhunting I've taken (1) WV P&Y buck, (3) MT P&Y bucks, and a couple others that haven't been scored taken in IN and MT that might be P&Y. Unless they're officially measured I'm not going to say those are book whitetails. I just haven't had them scored, or know that I will. Book or not those two not scored mean as much to me as any deer I've arrowed. Where I live in WV seeing a P&Y buck is not very common.
1 from WV 131" another than grossed 127 but netted 122 5/8 in 42 years. I have seen or missed another 4 .
Bowhunted WV for 24 years. Largest kill is a 114". Never saw one that I knew for sure would go p&y while hunting. Missed 1 that would have been close. Had trail cam pics and summer sightings of 3 or 4 that I can remember over the years that I think would have been borderline.
Hunted 1 week in OH several years ago and saw 2, maybe 3 that would have been 130" +.
Should have added that I have killed several and seen many more over the years in the 100-110" range. Those are "big deer" in the area I hunt, mostly 2 and 3 year olds though so p&y wouldn't be too much to ask occasionally if they could get to 4 and 5. I know they all won't make that even with age, but some certainly would.
wv_bowhunter please stop!
You’re making too much sense. Some people think we only deserve 110 Deer and we should be thankful for what we are allowed to have
Gee whiz - if I recall aren’t there several states that allow more than one buck and still produce more P&Y than the one buck states? Sure would make sense if some people understood that as well. Weren’t some of you in a lease down in the bow hunting counties but yet you did not get a P&Y - why is that? Maybe because it is sort of hard to do and not everyone does? Just my guess..... those of you who have killed in other states just a question - how many of you did it DIY and how many were guided?
After 4 years of managing it these were all killed the last year of having it before it got took over as part of WMA plus the last picture is one we didn’t get. There were a couple of 120s taken too since we knew it was the last year. I got sick and only hunted a day and a half. Not bad for a group of 15 hunters but we had a 130 inch minimum and it took 4 years to start producing good bucks. If we still had it there’s no reason we couldn’t have continued to take 5-6 good bucks every year off of it which would have been around a 30% rate for 125 and better bucks.
The WMA that the elk were released on. The same WMA that the locals from Logan county want to force the DNR to open up for ATV use. Which is strange because I was told that everybody was behind having a big WMA for elk reintroduction. But now, they want it open to ATVs. Go figure .
Some nice bucks but I thought everyone was posting that they had not shot any in WV or seen any .... so gobbler do we make every county bow only?
Nobody claimed there hadn’t been any killed. It just seems there should be more killed than what have actually been killed. I don’t understand why you are so dead set against any type of potential deer management improvement.
I don’t think anyone claimed that there had never been any killed. Just what their personal experience had been. No, I don’t think all counties should be Archery only. I don’t know why you would bring that up? It was never mentioned or implied in my post. I posted the pictures to illustrate what can happen in WV if bucks are given the chance to mature.
I’m with Rutbuster, I don’t understand why you are so dead set against any step to help improve Buck age structure.
If bucks can get some age on them, have good cover, good browse and the right minerals they can get nice in WV even in the gun counties.
In next few months wv dnr will be making proposals for next seasons buck bag limits would be nice to see some changes.
Legislative session is coming up too. Some might be surprised by that vile, despicable group.
Sunday that group does scare me - i was in a debate with one last year that thought it was wrong that the DNR used funds to buy the property which included a trout stream that has been worked and research for years by private individuals. He and several of his cronies don’t think that is the business of the state. Then he and a large portion of his supporters thought it was insane that the state could not use the surplus funds that the DNR has to fix some of our financial woes. So that is what you want - the legislators running our wildlife? And some of you think I am wrong! You need to open your eyes up. And I am not against steps towards better management and you know that I am not gobbler! That is the problem with those of you who believe lowering the buck limit is the magical solution for all of your dreams. Again other states have multiple buck limits and do just as well or even better than your fabulous KY and OH. Better habitat management should be our number one goal in this state and with a new administration in the White House and quite a bit of easing of regulations looks like we may see some improvement in our National forest areas now. You know gobbler this is directed right at you and the bbm group - I do commend your wanting to improve things in our state but start respecting and understanding that there are Other ways to skin a cat and be open to other ideas instead of bashing the crap out everyone who does not agree with you! And here recently yes I have taken A turn to becoming more aggressive in my post instead of just trying to say what I and others feel would be ways to improve management. Because all you all do is try to belittle people or put people down for not buying into your 1 buck limit theory. And yeah getting our legislators creating our wildlife management - yep that sure is a brilliant policy! It’s almost laughable if it wasn’t so terrifying!
JayD, we had this discussion a few weeks ago. You continue to call me a 1 buck guy. I’ll repeat what I said a few weeks ago again, I think there are several ways to improve Buck age structure. I’m open for several options as long as it reduces limit from 3.
If you think asking why you are dead set against improving the Buck age structure is bashing, putting down, and belittling you then I’m sorry. I will try to be more sensitive when asking questions.
JayD, I am not hard core one and done. I think there are several options available. I do think the limit should be less than 3 however.
This is a copy and paste from a post back from November 28th and my response to you calling me a one and done guy. I think it explains my position fairly well, however you keep saying that I’m a one and done guy. May I ask why? Pretty please.
Gobbler : Ok I will believe ya that you are fine and dandy with a 2 buck limit even though you belong to a group that you know wants a 1 buck limit. I will also believe even though we both know that most professionals feel and the numbers show that there just are not many who kill a third buck. But go back and look at some of your post and tell me you don’t get sarcastic about it —- and you know the group your in does! And again you know I am not against improving the age structure - I am glad that you and Sunday finally like something I have been saying for years that all bucks rather button or antlerless (broken or dropped) should count as a buck. Just like now - because I see other ways towards improvements you think I am against buck management. Seriously just because I don’t think your way is the way to go about things. So what are your feelings about having legisture start having a bigger part with wildlife management decision making - you agree with that to start minimizing our DNR because they don’t adhere to a certain group’s wants? I really want to know your answer to this one if ya please. I guess I will also believe that you never meant to mean with your statements that it is either zilch or very rare to see a P&Y in WV - even though some of you have stated that we have hunters here who have not taken or seen a P&Y buck in centuries of hunting years experience (just look at the first few post to this thread) but then you post pics that show some of you have indeed. Just confusing to me.
And as to my comment about bow only counties - I just figured since you think the 1 buck limit is a huge factor in the bow only counties that you would think being bow only may play a part in it as well along with maybe the topography of the land as well. How many years do you think hunters have been applying deer and land management in those counties compared to the rest of the state? Do you think I am wrong when I think the majority of our state is so far behind in land and timber management than the 4 bow only counties are? I still think in a majority of WV most people’s idea of management is putting out a corn or Apple pile. Guess I am wrong though.....
I have killed 1 that grossed 127. Killed 1 with a rifle that grossed 140. I have hunted bow only counties for several years and saw 2 that would be py down there. I usually have several deer on camera every year but I can't find them when I am hunting. I missed one last year and this year. (I need to practice more I guess).
I belong to a lot of groups either thru membership of Facebook groups because I think it’s important to find out what everyone is thinking or talking about. A lot of people seem to think the BBM site is all about 1 buck but it isn’t as their petition shows. There are people that would like 1 buck but also people that want 2 bucks, some people that want antler restrictions while others do not. But for some reason people that are against any change seem to constantly refer to it as a 1 buck group and I figure I know the reason for that. The site also provides a lot of educational material related to Deer and habitat management. I’m a life member of the NRA but I don’t like everything they push or try to do. There’s lots of groups I belong to that I don’t agree 100% with but still think what they do outweighs the bad. There’s also groups that I’ve quit that went over my self imposed line.
As far as the Legislature and DNR, I don’t know the answer for that because they are so closely intertwined. The Legislature sets fees for the DNR. We would never had gotten the elk program or Sunday hunting without Legislative involvement. People that told me never get the Legislature involved with anything related to the DNR were some of the first people to run to the Legislature to push the DNR to establish the elk program. The Legislature and Governor have the ultimate decisions as to what gets done in all divisions of the Government. The Legislature messed up on their first attempt at Sundsy hunting but they got it right last year and hopefully will expand on that this upcoming session.
So to me it’s not an easy answer because they are so intertwined. If it’s something one doesn’t want it’s easy to say don’t get the Legislature involved, while at the same time getting the Legislature involved if it’s something you do want. In a perfect world they should be independent of each other but it’s not a perfect world and the way it is set up. Regardless, of what anyone wants or doesn’t want the Legislature and Governor has the ultimate say of what gets or nots get done.
So gobbler did you change you belief in the one buck limit because I remember having several debates with you on this - if you recall I would always say not one and done but two and your thru is the way to go. This site only lets me go back thru so many previous post and that was several years ago. And I have I admit now I just don’t see lowering the limit to be the better way to go right now - I see other ways to be better. Because not everyone kills three spikes like quite a few on here believe - well maybe JR LOL jk!
Over the years I’ve leaned towards two and I’ve leaned towards one. I just think 3 is too many, not because that many people shoot three but because of the availability of 3 tags a lot of people put little thought in the first one because they know they have 2 more tags
I believe the three (3) buck tags should remain in effect for several reasons. The first being that few fill the tags, second food and genes play a big role in the rack size,third some of the small racks harvested are deer that are on the down side and have passed their prime. My personal preference for tags would be no more than one in gun season and the other 2 however the owner wishes to fill them. However they decide there will be those that are unhappy.
I just wish the dnr would discuss lowering the buck limit, or take a good hard look at their management plan, i still say and always will that it is a money thing when it comes to selling buck tags, If very few people use that third buck Why sell them ? $$$$
According to DNR data the vast margin of bucks killed in WV are 3.5 and less, and Also, a Deer doesn’t get past it’s prime until it’s around 7-8 years of age. I don’t think there are many bucks running around past their prime to have an effect on antler growth in WV.
Gobbler I thought the harvest of younger bucks in WV has been going down so is that not the case now? I missed those numbers. I know you are a supporter of the bbm group and that is fine and your right to do so but I have one favor to ask of you - go on there and make a post telling them that you are a Dnr commissioner and that you fully support a 2 buck limit. Do you think your post would stay up for very long? Believe me I wanted that group to succeed and do well - there was no bigger supporter than me at one time - talked a lot of friends in to joining it - now I regret that I did. And again make the post on there about the position you hold and your stance and tell me what happens. Again I think some will be very supportive of you but let us know how that post goes please???
I think the Bowsite grade your state report says a lot. The comments are interesting. It seems that WV is about as low as you can go for the grade.
The age class has been increasing . The highest percentage now is 2.5. It used to be 1.5. There is more 3.5s than there used to be, and more 4.5s but if you look at the graph there’s a pretty steep drop off after 3.5.
I support the majority of outdoor groups in the state.
I've only had one officially scored. 150 3/8's. There are others that might or might not be. None are as big as that one though. But, it Just isn't that important to me to have them officially scored. They are all trophies in my mind.
God Bless men
I started this same thread in the Ohio and PA forums and the responses are interesting. Both of those states have different styles of deer management than WV. It looks like Ohio's 1 and done with no antler restrictions seem to result in happier hunters over all. There wasn't much response from the Ohio forum but the ones that did respond talked about B&C bucks and that is something that hasn't even been hardly mentioned in our forum. The PA forum has enlightened me on the negatives that are related to the antler restrictions. Most of the PA hunters have realized that the antler restrictions promote the survival of the inferior bucks to do all the breeding and that is not a good thing in my opinion.
So PA would rather go back to one and a done they had for years that never worked there?
I went to the grade your state . Ohio and pa had a lot of the same responses as wv did. I think every state I looked at said the same thing.
I think PA has both the one and done and antler restrictions in some areas. It seems the one and done is popular but not the antler restrictions. I just like to hear from people who have experienced some of the changes that some want.
The one constant with the test sample Pat put up, is that a larger percentage of locals are unhappy with their home states management versus non residents.
PA is an evolving thing. AR’s worked well in the past due to so many hunters. Now, they are down close to WV total license sales so, their isn’t the need for an increased AR now like there was. Some can argue it’s due to age. Which I agree. However, the PA guys I’ve talked too while elk hunting in CO were very displeased with them. Declaring the need for them is over. One thing is for sure, PA has produced higher on the P&Y list since instilling the AR’s. However, if I remember correctly, the year before the AR’s went into affect, they were ranked 18th with total P&Y enteries from the preceding year. So, they’ve never been to shabby regardless of what you hear.
Stretch WV flatter, increase the size three times over, dot it with agriculture, and B&C would be the talk here too.
For all the guys here that’s never killed a P&Y deer, how many of you have taken advantage of the largest bow only area in the lower 48? And, those that say they go out of state to hunt these class deer, how many are doing it on public land or small parcels of private land? Or did you pay an outfitter, lease, etc....
It seems unfair to me that comparing a state this small, with little agriculture, and a high number of hunters, to a controlled managed piece of property is Linda apples and oranges.
God Bless men
Why does the chance for a P&Y buck have to be confined to the southern part of the state? I think we can have much of the same opportunity in the entire state if we make some improvements. I also think the improvements may need to be tweaked to see the best results.
Do you believe that every big buck state has equal opportunity across their state, for P&Y bucks? Many of these states have the same problems we have. Poor soil, non agriculture areas, areas that gets hunted more, etc..... Why is it in many big buck states that a few counties rule the p&Y entries?
I do not believe there is equal opportunity across every big buck states. I do believe the opportunity will be increased as a whole throughout the state with different management and that is all I am looking to have in my home state. Imagine being able to walk out your back door and having a decent chance of taking a P&Y buck.
I do have a decent chance of doing just that if I work at it. Neither is the southern pat of the state the only place to d it. I also theoretically get to bow hunt for over two months; rifle hunt for 2 weeks; muzzleloader hunt for a week; and doe hunt for a couple weeks. With the option of hunting the largest bow only hunting area in the lower UNITED STATES. Imagine not having that opportunity in trade for what you propose.
Who said you couldn’t do all of that? Improvement in deer management doesn’t mean all or any of that is going away.
No one is talking about doing away with the archery area, they just want increased opportunities in the rest of the state. I’ve hunted in all 4 counties of the bow counties since the early 90s. I’ve killed a few nice bucks but not a PY. I’ve seen several but never had a shot.
Unless you live there or have a friend to stay with most people can’t afford or have the time to spend a couple of weeks straight which is what it takes to have a decent chance at a good buck down there. Yes, some people get lucky and get one on a weekend hunt but that’s not the norm.
Rutbuster, that is potentially going away if you hunt in areas that do not have doe seasons during rifle season. If you were to kill a buck with the bow. I suppose I'm not going to kill a buck with a bow most years, as I normally don't anymore. However, why should your preference to not want to travel to hunt an area that one stands a chance to kill a decent deer, anymore important than the heritage and tradition I share with my friends and family? To put it bluntly, it isn't.
Greg, who said the bow only counties were going away? The "opportunity" I was talking about was being able to hunt all those seasons currently. And, as you've been so fond of saying before, it's all about priorities. We all have to choose how to use the time and financial resources we have. So, I imagine the guys choosing different areas to hunt deer besides WV, are doing so based on reasons other than financial constraints as well.
I could go back and quote hundreds, if not thousands of posts from the same people claiming they just want a more healthy herd. We have one. So is it about a healthy herd or, a decent deer? If you want a decent buck, don't shoot a small one. As stated here by many of the change proponents, there are plenty of doe tags to fill the freezer.
If there was one ounce of evidence that current buck management was hurting the deer herd, I'd be on board for reducing buck numbers. If there was one ounce that the average deer hunter was killing more than one buck, I'd be on board. But, that isn't the facts we have. We all know it. So, it isn't about herd health. Its about "trophy" deer. No problems wanting that but, Pope & Young deer isn't a a benchmark of a healthy deer herd.
God Bless men
Mountaineer, IDK where you are getting your license sales data from but I would find another source. According to the latest data from USFG for 2017 WV had 219,990 sold licenses and PA had 984,990 sold licenses. I don’t have a degree in mathematics but even I can tell that’s not close by any stretch of the imagination
PA also lead the nation by a large margin in hunter density at a little over 20 hunters per square mile on average.
I got it from hunters off the LW. I don't know if that is archery tags, rifle tags, all combined, etc...... I really don't because I don't know how PA sells their license. If that isn't correct, than it isn't correct. No mathematician degree needed. It wasn't even the point other than to point out that no matter how good it is, there are always score's of resident hunters that think their DNR is a bunch of idiots.
Since you brought it up though, Perhaps you could look at your numbers too. I'm confused when you repeatedly claim too many bucks are being killed under current management. Because that sure isn't what the DNR's numbers say. Where are you getting your numbers from? Hear me out. 219,990 total license sales. Assuming they were all WV deer hunters, like you did with that total PA license sale number, That means roughly 25-30% of deer hunters even killed a buck this year, with any weapon. So, what is right? Where are you getting the factual info that too many bucks are being killed?
Gobbler you repeatedly use the hunter density numbers from what a few considered to be very flawed article. PA does require landowners to buy a license and WV does not - that alone brings the WV density numbers up quite a bit - if my figuring is correct to almost 14 hunters per square mile. Also when you consider that WV had more non-resident hunters than PA - heck probably a majority of our non-residents are from PA . I still have not gotten a straight answer from the author on how he ranks RI at 16 hunters per square mile when the numbers just don’t add up. So when you take into account the landowners who hunt and the size of each state - the numbers are closer than what most think. Since PA is basically twice the size of WV I don’t think it is really fair to just look at numbers and not the size of each state.
WV Mountaineer so you are telling me that your specific heritage and tradition should dictate the rules and regulation of the entire state? That could have a devastating impact on the deer herd if everybody thought the same as you.
Nope. I’m telling you that the management plan we have is doing a fine job of it. Once again, NIMBERS say that. 30% of those that purchased a hunting license killed a buck this year. 30% flippin’ percent. What’s the real number. I don’t know. Perhaps someone here will have the numbers of landowners who don’t buy, lifetime holders, etc..., That would most assuredly bring that percentage up. But, using base license sales as an indicator, that’s the percentage of Bubba’s killing all the deer.
That’s a far cry from the outrage we here on here about the Bubba’s killing three spikes because it’s a buck. Or killing a smaller buck simply because they want to.
I’m further confused why assigning a buck a value by its horn size is ok by the better buck management crowd, yet frowned on when that value becomes table fare, tradition, etc..... by someone who views antlers not being the most important value a deer has.
And last but not least, I only expressed your unwillingness to do what would give you the best odds of killing a “decent” deer is no different than my unwillingness to base my opinion on your desires. You want change. I understand that. Base it on science and I’ll back it. However, basing it on your wants alone and, it falls Under a different category.
If we’re talking about limits based on science give me 1 shred of evidence that a limit of 3 is based on science or is superior to any other limit, It is a 100% arbitrary number.
People will argue that it provides opportunities, allows for the sale of more tags , etc. But give me a study by anyone that shows it’s some type of “ gold standard “ for Deer management.
There are a bunch of people wanting change not just me. It is my belief that we can do better as a whole in this state with the deer management. I understand that some people are scared of change but unless an effort is made to make a difference we may never know if any change would improve the overall experience of hunting. The fact is that we know what we have now is not what a lot of people are willing to settle for in regards to deer hunting.
I am not scared of change - just of the wrong change and something that is not needed.
JayD, hunters per square mile is an average. There’s no doubt there are some areas with more and some areas with less. But a square mile is a square mile whether it be in WV, PA, or Siberia. A square mile is 640 acres, and an acre is a fixed unit of measurement whether it is on flat land or a hillside. BTW, WV data should be more precise now that landowners are required to have an ID number even though they aren’t required to have a license. At this point into the e-check program the DNR has a much better idea on total number of hunters.
I don't know of one Greg. However, I'm not basing my preference on a three buck limit. I'm basing it on the DNR's numbers.
And I appreciate that. I’m just saying that a 3 buck limit is completely arbitrary.
Brace yourself guys Only about 1% of hunters kills a P&Y buck in there lifetime! I googled the stats. That's national so Iowa,Ohio,Kentucky,Kansas, Illinois, and so on only kill 1% These are states with different management plans!! Well there is no way there are P&Y bucks behind every tree in other states. If you google the info a bow site thread will come up , national and these guys from the big deer states provide some good info. we manage our hunting area and the last 4 years I can tell you we have had P&Y bucks every year. The state has nothing to do with it!!!!! If YOU want big deer stop shooting small ones! I see a lot of guys on here complaining about no big bucks, but then go to the hunt pole thread and there they are smiling ear to ear with a little buck! If you want better bucks look in the mirror is that the problem?
"And I appreciate that. I’m just saying that a 3 buck limit is completely arbitrary."
I understand that too. What I'm having problems with is the arbitrary thought's that less is better, when harvest numbers say otherwise. Not being a wise guy at all. Just trying to understand how the results will change when the number of bucks harvested by hunters doesn't appear to be the problem. So far, no one has answered that other than to say what they dream will happen. Dreams are dreams for a reason. God Bless men
I’m not sure that harvest numbers say otherwise. The majority of our buck harvest is 2.5 yrs of age or less. Plus the fact we are constantly harvesting more bucks than does
That's some of the numbers I questioned before. Where are you getting those numbers? All the info the DNR publishes leaves one to apply an executed guess at what the real doe to buck harvest it. I've also heard you comment multiple times about the DNR's inability or unwillingness to figure that number. Much less release it to the public. So, where are those numbers coming from?
I'm not questioning you. But, if that info is out there, I'd love to look at it. It would shed a bunch of light on what's-what.
Doe season just ended, when the DNR releases them for 2017 I’ll let you know. I still have trouble getting the archery/ muzzleloader numbers broken down into buck/doe. IDK why because with new computer system it should be easy to do.
As far as age structure we haven’t had any since e-check activated except in CWD zone. They set up stations in 2 counties this year. Not sure how accurate it is going to be because DNR said a lot of people didn’t know about it.
Limbhanger you are absolutely correct but many on here will have trouble understanding what you posted. Gobbler thanks for the mathematics lesson but I think I got it. Yes a sq mile is a sq mile but some states have more than others for which hunters can spread out over. And in the table on hunting density- landowners and lifetime licenses holders were not taken into account. I have never heard the number of lifetime license holders in WV - anyone know?
JayD if a state is 4x larger than WV but they also have 4x the hunters it kinda averages out.
Gobbler that is what I have been saying the whole time!
I don't know of 1 county in the state that a big buck DOESN'T get killed every once in a while , you know why ? He lived long enough to get big . Yes not all of them will make it to P&Y size if they live long enough, but given the chance some will . It's simple , if you want bigger deer the answer is to kill less bucks. At least 2 bucks a year is going in the right direction .
I am for one and done , however i would be just as happy to see dnr reduced down 2 bucks a season. but when money is such a concern it may never happen
Thank you for your participation in the survey. For myself the information was very interesting. Several others were surprised by the numbers as well. Sorry to have got some folks worked up. I tallied the numbers and added my figures in also. The best I can figure there were a few that said 20 + or so. Here's the data collected. 17 hunters answered the survey with data In 567 years of hunting, 15 P&Y class or better bucks were taken, by 7 hunters. That's 1 buck per every 37.8 years of all surveyed.
41% of the hunters surveyed killed a P&Y buck. Of the successful hunters, 15 bucks taken in 255 years. That's 1 buck per every 17 years for the lucky ones to get an opportunity. Still not good numbers at all in my mind. 3 hunters harvested 3 P&Y bucks 2 hunters harvested 2 P&Y bucks 2 hunters harvested 1 P&Y buck With the national average of less than 1% will kill a P&Y buck in there lifetime. This survey numbers was a little higher than expected in one regard. But I would guess many hunters could have looked at this survey and thought I'm not putting zero bucks in x amount of years. On the other hand it's awful bad 15 in 567 years wow! Thanks again, it's winter I was bored! Lol
