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P&Y Whitetails

How many P&Y Whitetails have you killed in PA? How many years have you been hunting?

I have zero and have been hunting 1 year in PA.

Zero in 32 years. Actually, I've never killed a buck. There have been seasons when I didn't even see a buck, let alone a big one. All depends on where you live and hunt in PA.

I have gotten two in a decade of bow hunting. I get at least one or two on my trail cameras every year where I hunt and sometimes a great looking 120" er or less walks buy perfectly broad side on a perfect day of hunting and I decide to take the shot. Sometime I let down on less than P&Y bucks and sometimes I let one loose on less than P&Y bucks. I scout year round and think about bow hunting just about everyday. Where I hunt in 5B the bucks are there and if I can hold out until after Halloween, I'm likely to get a crack at a P&Y buck.

2, been at it 38 yrs. probably 30 seriously, first 8 don’t count

One for me

I took one.

That’s a biggin ^^^^. Lol.

I'll dink ya door bell boy. LMFAO

Rutbuster, It sounds like you have pretty high expectations @ 1 and 0. Having been at this for over 40 years, ( the last twenty seriously) I can tell you it isn't easy. Typically it takes until at least it's fourth birthday to get close to 125" in most cases, which before Gary Alt, was impossible in this state. At that point they become a completely different animal. I have been fortunate to have hunted all the the great whitetail states of the midwest, and have probably laid eyes on more P&Y and larger bucks with a bow in my hand than anyone else I know; yet I've only killed a very small percentage. The biggest thing it takes to kill quality animals of any species is something most of us don't have; TIME. Most of the "horn porn" shows you see on TV, those people are hunting every day for the whole season, in some of the best areas of the country, to kill a few quality animals.

I recently read an article by Chuck Adams, where he has kept a diary of all his elk hunts over the years, and on years that he has killed a "good bull"' it had taken him an average of 21 days! There will always be blind luck, but for the most part, guys don't have the TIME to be patient, and hold out for a quality buck.

At this point in my journey, I love the challenge of a late season bowhunt for a "trophy matriarch doe". The bitch that busted you all season. You know the one; long nose and gray faced; always on alert. Kill her consistantly, and your a bowhunter!

Thanks for your input Bowjo. I don't have high expectations. I was trying to compare PA to WV P&Y kills. I know that PA has a deer management system in place where as WV deer management is non existent for older age class animals. WV is more about the quantity of deer seen. I would love to here more PA hunter's results good or bad. The hunters in WV are trying to band together to get better management practices from our state agency.

Rut buster I've Been Hunting In Pa For Over 34 Years, My Home State , I Don't Mind The Antler Restriction, But You Got To ReAlly Put Your Hours In To See deer, Archery Is youR Best Chance, pa shot way to many doe off in some places , you can hunt all week aND see maby a hand full of deer in places, wv I heard is getting the same way. Then you have ehd disease.

Pa is a tough state for p&y bucks. Just to touch score vs age with my personal bucks. The last 7 bucks I shot were all 4.5 years old. I did send the lower teeth in for aging to confirm. 5 of them grossed between 130-160 but only 2 netted 125 p&y. 3 Of them net 124 and change, just missed p&y minimum. 2 were short of 120 and I never officially measured. All were nice mature deer but only 2 made book.

Not all bucks have the genetics to be big. Go to the mid West and a 4.5 will most likely score much higher than p&y min. Good luck!

I think its more luck than anything unless you have sole accsess to quality posted hunting ground . I have been hunting Allegheny/ Washington co for 45 years and not got one or a shot at one ever I spent countless hours scouting and endless hours up to 11 hrs a day with out getting down and have never had the opportunity at a PY buck. I have done a lot of reading and research not to mention I have found close to 200 drop off (with no dog that's cheating) many many miles and tons of knowledge I gained. it just aint in the cards for me. I know people that get into the woods1- 3 times a year and shoot them. I have shot 38 bucks and passed up many more just cant get over that 110" mark.

Our four bow only counties are really good hunting for older age class deer most of which grow nice antlers but the overall deer numbers are really low. The rest of WV struggles with deer age structure due to current regulations that are in place. There are areas of private ground that are starting to get good bucks but that is solely due to the efforts of the land owners managing their own herds as much as they can.

A 127 inch buck in Chester county was my best PA buck. Took bigger looking ones that just did not make it. Took a 136 inch plus 10 point in Wyoming County, WVA near Pineville. They are bruisers there but not may of them. Check out Almost Heaven Outfitters. I was there in 2010 I think. This is a private club on a huge lease. I would do it again if I had the means to spend 3 or 4 weeks there hunting, plus spring scouting/shed hunting and some camera work. For one reasonable price you can hunt there every day.

Many

Yeh I know that place well. I’m the new president of the club. We are trying to get the rest of the state up to speed with the management practices of the bow only counties. I remember your WV buck it was a very nice buck.

Dennis Razza, What you describe makes me wonder if you're experiencing the high grading problem Mississippi experienced with the long term use of APR's. That is one reason they got rid of their APR program they had in place for many years. Even though ages increased, the rack quality decreased because the higher quality bucks were being shot off and lower quality bucks did the breeding. This resulted in smaller antlers over time. There is a good scientific study about this you can find online.

West virgina has a state gameland with bow hunting only , I would like to see pa have a couple public land with bow hunting only.

West virgina has a state gameland with bow hunting only , I would like to see pa have a couple public land with bow hunting only.

Here is the link to the MSU APR study. It goes over the good and bad of APR's.

Thanks for the link JL. There is a lot of info there. I will read and go over.

So one buck limit may be a better route for management.

Oh, Kenny, I recognize your name now. Wish I only lived an hour away. Saw plenty of deer down there Thursday on our way home fom Georgia. Scotty got a bigger 8 point the same year I got mine.

Yeh. We got 6 bucks this year out of 10 hunters. We had a really good year on the lease. We are trying to get the rest of the state to see the benefit of good deer management.

Cool article about P&Y in PA. Neat map as well

I've been bowhunting for 36 years and started seriously hunting big bucks about 20 years ago. (1998 was the first year I passed up shots at buck hoping for a bigger one). In those 20 years I've taken 2 P&Y bucks in PA.

During that time I killed a 5.5 year old buck that weighed 315 lbs that gross scored under 120", a 7.5 year old buck that scored about 120", and several other mature bucks that were in the 120" to 124" range. I agree with Dennis on not all bucks having the genetics to be high scoring.

I also agree with Joe on time being a huge factor in success. I moved away from my primary hunting area and changed jobs in 2014. I no longer had the convenience or time to scout/hunt before and after work. While I've had enjoyable and successful seasons in that time, I quickly realized that trying to hunt one buck was going to be frustrating, so I changed my approach and continued to enjoy my archery season.

While I wish you luck in your endeavor, I think it's important to remember everyone hunts with different goals and abilities. As long as people are hunting legally and ethnicity that's what's important. Good luck and happy new year.

DanWeston357 thanks for the link. I found that very interesting.

Thanks for your response Mitch. We do not wish to keep anybody from enjoying their style of hunting. We only wish to reduce the buck limit from three down to two or even one. It doesn't look like the antler restrictions are the best thing for the heard as too many inferior bucks end up doing all of the breeding. You guys are providing great information to people who are only now beginning the process of QDM.

Rutbuster, Good luck with the QDM. I would not rule out antler restrictions, and am VERY sceptical about the idea of "inferior bucks" doing all of the breeding in areas with antler restrictions. Unlikely that bowhunters or gun hunters, where you have reasonable seasons and hunting regulations, could kill off ALL of the big rack mature "genetically superior" deer in areas with antler restrictions, the idea is that the bucks simply get older and the more older bucks you have in a herd the more difficult they are to hunt and no way you "eliminate" the dominant bucks and leave all of the breeding to "inferior" bucks. The gene pool is simply too large for the type of impact you describe. Also younger bucks do not correlate to "inferior gene" bucks or a lesser genetic potential for smaller rack bucks. I can not see how antler restrictions statewide or even WMU wide could impact the genetics enough to over time to create "lesser" racks. The goal of Antler restrictions are to increase the age of the buck heard. If you have 3 point or 4 point antler restrictions you are simply improving the likelihood that bucks will reach 2.5 years or older, more bucks then reach 3.5, more bucks then reach 4.5 etc, etc. After 4 years, the skeletal system of a buck is fully formed and all of the energy and chemical compounds (calcium, phosphorus, etc.) can now get dumped into antler growth instead of internal skeletal growth. Also as mentioned when a buck reaches 4 years old it is a very different animal and MUCH more difficult to hunt and kill more likely to survive and breed. These older bucks will display typical rutting behaviors and the more dominant bucks will do the breeding. The breeding will be determined by the doe as much as the bucks and there is NO WAY to selectively cull the "inferior gene buck producing" does from the heard. Likewise you cannot selectively allow the "superior gene buck producing" does to walk instead of being killed. I have read studies that show that doe allow multiple buck to breed with them every rut. The older the bucks get and the better your buck to doe ratio will allow the buck rut behavior to determine which bucks are more dominant, stronger, with bigger racks and more likely to breed. The fastest way to bigger racks is to allow the bucks to survive past the 1.5 dumb button buck, spike buck, fork horn age. The way to a healthier herd is to improve habitat to accommodate the heard and provide better nutrition for the herd or if the habitat can not easily be improved then the herd needs to be reduced to fit the carrying capacity of the habitat. This is my understanding. Good luck and at the end of the day, have fun, and enjoy your hunting and DMA pursuits.

Hey would some of you tell rutbuster how the one and done worked for your state up until Gary Alt help to implement antler restrictions? As to high grading there is another group research that does not find the same results as those listed above. I will see if I can find it again it’s been several years since I have read both research findings. Certain group in WV is trying to push for one buck limit and ignores the fact that there are other Midwest states other than one buck limit states that produce nice whitetails. They also ignore that each year the numbers are improving in WV.

Like your post Dan!

Thanks again Dan for your perspective.

Full disclosure....I have never hunted in PA. I did in Maryland for 5 years when I lived there and that is the closest I come to PA. I have done a bit of data collection and studying the APR issue in different states. As some of you may know the PGC does bi-annual hunter surveys. They were due for one in 2016/17 but it hasn't been posted yet.

The surveys and reports on the PGC site have some great info on a variety of subjects. The survey respondents were from across the state, private and public land. The majority still support APR's. The problem is the majority of respondents are either not happy or have no opinion with what they see for quality and quantity of bucks. The minority are happy. I have the PGC data somewhere but within the total buck harvest, something like 88.5% of the bucks harvested are 2.5 and below. Of the remaining total buck harvest of 11.5%, those are the 3.5 and above. Your hunters buck harvest rate has been averaging in the 18% range. That means 82% do not harvest a buck. One note....IMO the PGC is a little deceptive with the data in their reports and surveys. They removed a survey question from the 2014 survey that was in the 2012 survey that was not favorable to the PGC. To come up with the other info you have to collect it and do the math. Anywho...check out the hunter surveys.

The 2014 hunter survey....

http://www.pgc.pa.gov/InformationResources/MediaReportsSurveys/Documents/2014%20PA%20Deer%20Hunter%20Survey%20-%20Report%20-%20Statewide%20Results.pdf

The 2012 hunter survey.....

http://www.pgc.pa.gov/InformationResources/MediaReportsSurveys/Documents/2011%20PA%20Deer%20Hunter%20Survey%20-%20Preliminary%20Statewide%20Results.pdf

Yea when they put a antler restriction on bucks, hunters shoot way more doe, down where I live they had a 4 point to one side for a couple of years , it was a joke, heck I had 20 inch spread 4 point by me this archery season at 15 yards , if it wasn't for restriction that deer would be in my freezer, my point any deer with a bow is a trophy.

Sounds like the antler restriction would really reduce the chance of hunters to take bucks that they may be perfectly happy with putting a tag on had it been legal.

Yes it does, trophy hunters are trophy hunters, I would of shot that 4 point with my bow and been happy, some guys would pass it up , I pay to hunt every year , don't think game commision should tell me what I can and can't shoot wit my bow, I've had nice 6 points under me too, but it had 2 up and a brow tine and I could not shot neither.

Wow, the PGC altering surveys and data to suit their agenda. Shocking.

Fake news I say. Funny how a 20 minute conversation gets shortened down to that. Too much time on that guy's hands. And that was before he retired.

JAYD WROTE- ""Hey would some of you tell rutbuster how the one and done worked for your state up until Gary Alt help to implement antler restrictions? As to high grading there is another group research that does not find the same results as those listed above. I will see if I can find it again it’s been several years since I have read both research findings. Certain group in WV is trying to push for one buck limit and ignores the fact that there are other Midwest states other than one buck limit states that produce nice whitetails. They also ignore that each year the numbers are improving in WV.""

JayD- I have read a few articles recently that seems to show the PGC is throwing around the idea of allowing 2,000 second buck tags through a lottery system at a cost of $100+ a tag. Looks like it is some sort of revenue raising tactic and 2000 tags will doubtfully have any significant impact on the buck herd. I am okay with the one buck a season regulation here in PA. I enjoy the decision making aspect of one buck a season.

As to midwest states that allow more than one buck, PA and WV have some of the highest hunters per square mile of any state in the US so to compare PA or WV regulations and impact to Midwest states with no where near the hunting pressure is not a reliable comparison.

"When you say numbers are improving in WV"...what do you mean? Herd numbers are increasing? Bigger Bucks being harvested? Hunters are experiencing a higher rate of success per season?

I know in Michigan the number of hunters who kill a 2nd buck is in the low single digits. That may not be a factor. Not sure how many in PA (if allowed?) get a 2nd buck. IMO....like Michigan, it could be PA has too many hunters in the field at once during gun season?? That is when a high percentage of the total buck harvest gets killed. IMO unlimited OTC deer tags/licenses sold is not a good thing for the herd. Too many hunters going after a small pool of bucks equals low harvest rates every year. I believe this is reflected in the dissatisfaction rates your PGC hunter surveys.

Ive killed 2, both grossed in the 140's and both came from private property. Been hunting for 26 or 27 years.

In that time, ive been fortunate to hunt some decent private ground surrounded by more private ground. Most years there are one or two P&Y bucks running around and a handful of 100-125's around. Now killing them is another story cause the property i hunt is small and the deer are usually passing through. The thick bedding areas are mostly on the other properties. We have some food but the others do too. The property has changed over the years with less bedding and the need for select logging again. But i dont own it so i work with what i can where i can.

Sorry was typing in a hurry and left out some key points. As to comparing to Midwest states - these guy always compare WV to KY and OH because they have a one buck limit and they think that it alone would do wonders for WV. I think WV would be more like PA where one an done did nothing for you all for years until AR’s were implemented.

Numbers improving are with age structure - the number of 1.5 years olds is down around 30% or even a tad lower - where it use to be 70 percent. Total population is being better controlled but still need some more does harvested in some areas.

Thanks!

The one and done had to make improvements over their previous regs. To say there was no improvement is a bit far stretched.

Rutbuster - My Uncle hunted PA all the time and my father did some. My brother-in-law ‘s family has several large farms in PA and I only live about 25 minutes from the PA line - they had one and done for years - matter of fact for the longest time I believe it was one deer and your done not just one buck but the guys from here can tell you more. They did not see any improvement until AR’s were in place and they started controlling the population - which according to some they may have dropped the numbers a little too low. The low numbers is just what I heard from others I have no knowledge of that and my B-I-L farm had plenty of deer on it this summer when I was there for a family get together.

JayD - Pa's old one and done depended on if a guy was able to get a doe tag. And if i remember correctly, they wouldnt send out that doe tag until after archery was over. Guys could either shoot a buck or a doe on their archery tag but then he was done, unless he got a doe tag. Things started to change in the late 90's with the issue of more doe tags, the extension of archery season and others. I cant remember when they all happened.

Just a follow up to something I posted a couple of days ago. I relocated the 2012 survey question that was removed from the 2014 survey. Some folks who looked at both surveys may have caught what the PGC did. The PGC removed question number 21 from the 2014 survey. I think I know why but I would like to find out the reason why the PGC decided to remove the question. I'll be curious to see if it returns in the 2016 survey.

1 p&y buck in 35 years in Pa. couple others in the 120 range. Did shoot a 19 point non typical a few years back that was never scored but dont think he would make 155.

Pa has a new archery record as of today. A buck killed on October 24th in Westmoreland County was officially scored at 185 4/8. Grossed 193 and something.

I have 2... so far the best was a 154 10 point. Might have to switch strategy ,seeing some real bruisers deep in Tioga and Susquhannock S F 's.

I have one that could make the pa book just shy of the 125 necessary for p&y

Also killed a 135 in rifle season in Elk county 2 seasons ago but that doesn't count

123 7years ago with my compound

I'm lucky enough to have taken 2 with my compound. 164" 14 pt. and a 125" 10pt. Should have a couple more, but I have a tendency to shake when a big buck shows up.

Try a 3 buck limit and no antler restrictions like in WV gun counties. That makes it tough to find a P&Y buck to hunt.

I’ll echo most of the previous posts. I shot my first P&Y buck this year. I missed two since I started hunting in 1996 and shot two others (with rifle and flintlock) that scored above 130. I hunt mostly on private ground. Several other mature 3 1/2 or older bucks scored in the 110-125 inch range. There always seems to be a few around each year that we know about that will score above the 125 inch mark and we always encounter a few “unknown “ bucks that make our eyes pop out a bit. Knowing they are around makes it easier to hold out though I have settled for tag soup and occasionally a smaller buck depending on the conditions and available time to hunt. Regardless of what your personal goals are, nobody can deny the excitement of knowing a big buck is in your hunting area. And the woods always seem a bit empty when he’s gone.

Two with a compound bow . I just bowhunt and been bowhunting for 42 years. Pass on many bucks to harvest mature bucks. A mature buck doesn't mean it would make P&Y but 4 1/2 buck is hard to harvest no matter the size of the rack.

I've killed 1 p&y and 1 was just under...I've been hunting 25 yrs

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