Grade Your State..WV
West Virginia
How in the world could you give WV A-A-A- on this report???
How could you give the grade you did? I had a great Fall. I killed a buck that all of its teeth were wore down and the local Dnr guy said was around 9 years old. I saw 37 different bucks the 2 weeks before gun season came in - and only 2 were spikes - saw one doe with 3 button bucks - looks pretty good to me. Just in the last 2 days I have seen some pretty impressive bucks. So yeah I think it looks pretty good. I drove up to Sleepy Creek Lake about 10 days ago and saw plenty of deer from the road and 2 were little basket racked bucks - I would say it’s safe they have made it thru the season. Sorry your area isn’t so well - I remember back when the hunting was not the best here back in the 70’s I drove to other areas to hunt - WV mountaineer is right - you may need to add up on the mileage a little bit more.
i didnt think deer could be accurately aged past 5.5 years. To say a deer is 9 would be a guess I would think.
How could you give a good grade ? You can look at your area and judge what you think . I saw few deer on my hunts and cameras other than in Logan county. I also hunted two locations in Fayette county and also in Summers and Wetzel counties and saw few deer. The same hunting tactics used when I use to see many deer in those areas. Look at the Wv state grading on this site and you will see many others giving low grades. Also try and figure out why 17 k hunters want better deer management on another site. I also see Pennsylvania ,Kentucky and Ohio had better grades. Maybe you should rethink your grade based on not what you saw but add other hunters reports too
Oh the neighbor across the road from me had a good year, my best friend killed a real nice buck at Cacapon State Park and a nice buck in a farm in Jefferson county along with a few does, several other friends did well, close friends I really didn’t hear of one of them having a terrible year yet. Only bad years I have heard about are from you guys on here.
JayD, you need to rethink your opinion of how your season went. lol. That was funny as heck M.P.
You know wvmountaineer at first I thought it was funny as well then I thought about and thought it sort of makes you mad but it is typical - not only do they want to limit our hunting opportunities but now they have to tell what our own opinions should be! Thank goodness I wasn’t some young child whose buck did not meet some of their members criteria and they could bash me some on that as well!
MP - I did think of others when I did my grade - did you? Also I like how people throw out certain numbers - such as hunter density numbers when all the facts are not known or used or a 17,000 number of hunters who all agree the same? I know quite a few on there that feel the same as I did about maybe reducing to two if it was needed. Numbers show it is not though. How many of those 17000 are anonymous- when I looked at the petition looked like there were some. And when I devide 17,000 by 330000 I come up with like 5 percent of the total number of hunters. I also liked when I was on the fb page how when you checked on some of the people commenting on certain post - they had more or less a handle for a name and not a real name with very little info stated on their own page. Duplicates maybe? Just a guess
i said rethink your grade ,wv mountaineer. Get it right before you make fun of me. I laugh at all of your posts and usually shake my head too. I respect JayD' post even though I don't always agree with them. Actually I based my grade on my experiences this season. I later read other hunters responses afterward and saw a lot of the same grades.
Are we really at the point of using conspiracy theories now?
I’m beginning to wonder if Trump and Putin are behind the push to lower the buck limit in WV? John McCoy from the Charleston Gazette must be involved also since he wrote an article about increasing numbers of hunters wanting a change in buck management. Dang, this whole thing may go all the way back to Roswell. Maybe a special council should be appointed to investigate?
Wow WHAT A SEASON, 37 different buck deer in 2 weeks ? What county is that, I sure dont know many hunters who see that many different bucks in a season let alone 2 week period.
Jayd,on every site you will have people who disrespect others and on the BBM site you are referring to those posts that were removed. Some people post to agitate. I figure you know that but threw that comment out there anyway
MP, get over yourself. I wasn’t making fun of you. Only making fun of what you said. Believe me, you even left your betttr buck management friends shaking their heads on that one. I understand your reply though. And, I’d get defensive expressing that level of ignorance too.
You have yourself a good day.
I saw five bucks all season. That's bow and gun season. Now maybe I should have hunted harder or walked farther, but I put in more effort than most.
And Sunday I can understand why you would give a lower grade and I would not say you are wrong but I had a great season but this is not a far off the norm for me - and I am not saying I am a better hunter either. Gobbler who said anything about conspiracy? We all disagree on here quite a bit sometimes but tell me what I said above is a conspiracy?
Read your last post and if you can’t figure it out then I don’t know what else to say
You have a strange way of thinking , mountaineer. Lol,strange .You go have yourself a good day also. lol
Where in wv can i go to see 37 different buck deer in 2 weeks, what is buck to doe ratio in area you hunt Jay d , 3:1 or 4:1 which is good for most places, wow , most really be a lot of deer , what county is that again ? So if you saw 37 different bucks , how many where 3.5 and older?
I only saw 11 bucks in 5 days of hunting on my property in Iowa. but I only hunted 5 days. I did pass on some 2 deer that would have made the minimum. I know there are better bucks there and I didn't need the meat.
JR, do u want to lease your Iowa farm this year? My wife and I have 4 points
Sorry been busy here this morning - Berkeley county not one known for deer and that is what I saw - i hunted everyday for about 15 days straight. Hoppies - again I will tell you I concentrate most of my hunting to those two weeks and no matter where I have hunted I have normally seen more bucks than does during that time period. I did up in Otter Creek Wilderness as well as here in Sleepy Creek and it’s been like that every year since I bought my property.
So it is a conspiracy to say that 17,000 hunters is only 5 percent of total hunters? Or there are people who voted with animosity on the petition? It’s a conspiracy to say that when several people with very limited fb page info would make repeated comments to anyone not in favor of the one buck limit? So just bringing those thing out it’s a conspiracy but saying that we are so far away from PA but not taking into the size of the state, landowners or lifetime license is ok? Well guess I don’t know what to say either - LOL remember the other day I posted about the sarcasm gobbler - look at your post and tell me you don’t do it.... LOL
Sorry been busy here this morning - Berkeley county not one known for deer and that is what I saw - i hunted everyday for about 15 days straight. Hoppies - again I will tell you I concentrate most of my hunting to those two weeks and no matter where I have hunted I have normally seen more bucks than does during that time period. I did up in Otter Creek Wilderness as well as here in Sleepy Creek and it’s been like that every year since I bought my property.
So it is a conspiracy to say that 17,000 hunters is only 5 percent of total hunters? Or there are people who voted with animosity on the petition? It’s a conspiracy to say that when several people with very limited fb page info would make repeated comments to anyone not in favor of the one buck limit? So just bringing those thing out it’s a conspiracy but saying that we are so far away from PA but not taking into the size of the state, landowners or lifetime license is ok? Well guess I don’t know what to say either - LOL remember the other day I posted about the sarcasm gobbler - look at your post and tell me you don’t do it.... LOL
I still dont see how you give a good grade on our management side of it, i know areas differ and some may produce more or less, but on a management side, a 3 buck limit is a downfall...And i still dont see how that will cut into your hunting time. Just dont kill the first 1.5 year old buck you see. I hunted all season, passing numerous bucks, not 37, but several , and enjoyed it , until i killed one with my bow day before thanksgiving. I think by passing the bucks i did, i actually got to hunt more.
Curious though, 37 different bucks in 2 week before gun season? How many different properties was that on? How much land? How many does did you see? and yes mileage varies....But you can always upgrade to where you can get better( older deer) mileage,,,,,And not keep driving a 1950's Ford. Thats our problem....using outdated ideas.....and management practices
I think I had a good overall year too even though I didn't kill a buck. I did kill 2 doe. This year was definitely different than usual. Like jayd has said I usually saw more bucks than does on each hunt. I also found the deer to be in different areas than usual. I also was on vacation and hunted every day the 2 weeks before rifle.
Even if there were 100,000 bucks killed that would come out to 30 or 40 % of licensed hunters killing deer. That percentage will be even lower when you figure the landowners into that average. So if 25% (high guesstimate) is all that is killing deer why would we need to lower the buck limit? I do think better doe management is needed. There are way too many most places I hunt.
There are far too many does in almost every square mile of this state.
I had a great year. I was actually able to hunt more this year than in the last 6 or 7. Looking back, I saw zero the first day, zero the second weekend. I saw my first deer the second weekend of October. I saw numerous deer from there until rifle season. Anywhere from 8-11 a day when I hunted. I saw 4 deer in the Cranberry. I was unable to muzzleloader hunt. I saw 6 deer on Saturday of doe season. And I saw 14 deer last weekend. Across the season, I saw 1 buck for every 4 or 5 does.
I hunted 4 pieces of property spread out over the eastern and southern part of the state. 2 private and 2 public pieces. I saw far more deer on the private than the public lands. But, we don't go to the back country to kill deer. We go for the big woods atmosphere. Aside from the Cranberry, I managed a deer sighting about every 1 hour spent in the woods. I'll take it and be happy. God Bless men
JayD, no offense, but I think your assumptions about 5% of the hunters is off. That assumption assumes that every hunter does Facebook and has declined to be part of that site. I don’t think that’s the case.
I have my opinions, but they are just an opinion. I have asked DNR Wildlife to have an independent, non-biased 3rd party company to do a survey of the deer hunters in WV and I would side with the majority. However, my requests have been declined. With no independent survey I have to go with what I hear from the public and what I hear is that a lot more hunters want a lower limit than do not. I don’t know how to be more fair than that.
JD. I will ask again out of 37 different bucks you saw in 2 weeks , How many of those 37 were older than 3.5 years of age ? , Just seems like a lot of bucks to see in 2 weeks anywhere , let alone a county with buck rifle harvest of less than 800.
That's basically 2.75 bucks or so a day. That's not a lot of bucks to see during the prime seeking/chasing phase hunting different properties.
Well i dont know any hunters who see 37 (different) bucks in 2 weeks maybe see that many bucks but (different) bucks. I just dont buy that junk, i have spend to many seasons in outdoors for that.
Well thanks for calling me a liar Hoppies - I know what I saw - and I really don’t care what you buy - as mountaineer said if a hunter is hunting during the peak rut and not seeing multiple bucks a day - that person might want to think about another sport because he/she is not very good at hunting.
I have see and have taken plenty of bucks during seeking and phase which is not peak rut , to me peak rut is a breeding phase. never seen 37 DIFFERENT!! ones, and believe me i have seen and taken more 3.5 and older bucks with a bow in hand most hunters have been hunting them. so i think i know how to bow hunt whitetails.
I had a great season, got to go hunting as much as I wanted to. I took a nice 8 point buck and saw a few others and some does, a lot of turkeys and squirrels. I know our deer herd is down quite a bit ,the deer kill numbers tell it. I also know that is true from the amount of deer I didn't see. I can't think of too many reasons to complain because I am still able to get out there and enjoy the sport of bow hunting which I dearly love. What a great country we have that we have that privilege , so many others are not allowed to hunt.
Again i ask of 37 different!! bucks you said you saw how many were 3.5 plus bucks? AND how many of those 37 did you see more than once.? How many of those 37 bucks were within bow range ?
EZ now guys , I know that sounds like a lot of bucks but the county I hunt ( Putnam) has a lot of diversity when it comes to deer numbers . I only saw 42 deer all season and 19 were bucks ( a lot of repeats , no license plates on em) but 4 air miles away you can drive the county road and see 60-70 deer in an evening .
Happy New Year
Hoppie, Other than guessing due to body and horn size, how is he supposed to know that? Is that what you are looking for? His guess. You’ve already called him a liar. You are not going to believe anything he tells you because you don’t believe what he’s said up until now.
JayD. Is the real deal. I’ve seen the pictures to prove it. God Bless men
You are right no matter what some people won’t believe you and that’s fine. Thanks for the compliment as well! Since the first of the year I have already seen 4 bucks that most would think were shooters or pretty darn close to it. I am putting some cameras back out but without being able to bait or use attractants it’s a little hard anymore to get the pictures I once did. They are not hitting the mock scrapes like they were either. The neighbor just cut down a corn field so maybe I can get a few pics where they cross over me to get to the corn. We shall see.....
JayD, can we all come hunt with you next year:^)
Guessing is right Mountaineer. Not saying he didnt see 37 buck deer , But 37 DIFFERENT!! ones. When they are chasing and dogging doe as they would generally be doing in that 2 week time frame. I say it would be hard enough to do for you me or anyone else even if they where all in bow range. It is hard enough sometimes telling 2 DIFFERENT bucks apart even in photos.
LOL you may get that 180 offer as well! Rofl Gobbler if I recall you were holding back on shooting like maybe 3 or 4 different bucks - how did they fare this season? Hopefully several made it thru?
Well since it was in 4 different properties and 9 were seen one day from one tree and watching all 9 chase 3 different does at the same moment I would say I am pretty close on the 37 guess since that is what we are now calling it. Saw 6 different bucks another day or a different property - 4 were right on the doe chasing her and 2 more came by about 10 minutes later from a completely different direction and had completely different racks.
I kill my first deer with a bear recurve when I was eleven and have been hunting with a recurve most of my life - so for about 45 years - I think I can tell the difference between bucks since about 95% of my shots have been 20 yards or less. But I have no clue as to what I am talking about compared to you experts..... LOL
From numbers you gave that total is a little short of 37, Like i said, not saying you didnt see a lot of buck deer but 37 DIFFERENT!! ones is what i have to QUESTION , I do know when bucks a chasing and seeking they will sometimes circle back thru and area. if they are not the dominate buck or have lost doe to another buck.
What more can i say I saw 9 different bucks chasing 3 does all at the same time from one treestand at one point all were within about 60 yards of me and that was one just one day - one was a 10 that I was dying to get a shot at - I pretty much had binoculars on him for about 3 and 1/2 hours - he would not leave the does side!
Another day i saw 4 chasing one doe all around one of my better food plots for about 40 minutes - saw them go over the hill and across the creek and then about 10 or 15 minutes late two different bucks came through stayed at the food plot for a bit and both with their noses to the ground went off following the previous group and that was actually one morning - went to a different property that evening and saw 2 bucks! Now i am not going to list out each of my darn hunts - don’t believe me I really don’t care because i know what I saw. And by the way the survey says grade YOUR season not your state or everyone you know - I had a great season and shared my opinion. I will say it again sorry your season sucked but there is only one person who can changed that just like limbhanger said - its you doesn’t get to much easier to improve your own luck.
I don’t know for sure yet but I think most of them made it through, or at least I’m hoping. We didn’t shoot any bucks this year. I had an out of state teenager shoot a spike on me from across the fence on a neighbors farm. He pulled it to the creek bottom then got scared and cut the back straps out and left. He got busted that afternoon for hunting without a license and hunting without permission and sent to retrieve the Deer for game officer to confiscate. Hopefully, he learned a lesson.
The funny thing was that I was in Colorado and got a call from the landowners wife where he was hunting to tell me about it or I would have never known. She doesn’t like people shooting Deer and letting them go to waste. A good friend of mine was staying in my cabin to watch the farm during gun season but this happened on the far lower side and didn’t know about it. After receiving the call I called the local officer and that was that .
Still curious though, on the management part, there were several that said the DNR was spot on , on their management practice...I just cant see that , when they are managing for $$...Selling of tags, quality over quantity...
The lowering of the buck limit is not where it needs to be as far as the public is concerned, still to many people pumping their chest about the 2-3 young bucks they shoot....But,....Its not that far away.....We've coma along way in the last 5-6 years..
I give WV where I hunt a C on number of deer seen. Again a C on quality of bucks antlers. However I don't feel the property's I hunt will ever produce large antlers deer. Hunting the same property for 20 plus years and taking many bucks with bows and gun. The last 10 years I have limited myself to one deer buck per yr and those I hunt with are of like mind. With the aid of game cameras the last 3 years I haven't had one p&y bucks found....looking out of state in the future.
Nothing to be sorry about I do appreciate it though. I had a great season - I feel bad for those who didn’t have the experience I did. I know the reasons why I see the animals I do and they have come to the conclusions as to why they did not have the same experiences. Enough said at this point in time. Take care....
The old work harder analogy. It's funny how I go to another state, don't work any harder, but have dramatically different results.
Are hunters in the four bow hunting only counties a different breed of hunters that work harder, walk farther, etc?
??? You r right sportoutfitter has me befuddled as well. I sure must have Implied more than I posted there somehow. I am a better writer than I thought I was -my words say much more than I realize!
i hunted logan 4 days this year and saw more bucks and does than the rest of my season in other counties. I passed on 7 different bucks. I guess a one buck and one doe limit has its perks. Sportsoutfitter,you are blessed to be able to regularly hunt in the 4 counties
If the rest of the state was like the 4 counties they would not have given such low grades. Imagine if the four counties had a 3 buck limit and multiple doe tags. You don't have a gun season in the 4 counties so you cannot even compare the hunting there to the rest of the state.
I will stick to the grade I gave the state. My grade is for what I saw in the areas I have hunted in Fayette,Summers and Wetzel counties. Where I hunt is far different than the counties you get to hunt regularly.
my best friends son shot the biggest buck of his life on my property this fall (10 point with two kickers) . my son shot a dandy 8 point that I am feasting on the jerky as I type. I shot a beautiful 9 point opening day and a 120 8 point in muzzleloader season that had its front leg blown off by another hunter. the two bucks I was actually hunting for never showed themselves. one a solid 130 and the other almost the same. the last week of December I counted over 12 younger bucks not including the buttons. I have to give the state an A+ rating for my county. even with a three buck limit there are a ridiculous amount of bucks in my area. 4 bucks taken. 2 more (the most mature) survived. over 12 different bucks on cam the last week of season. I own 5 acres. life is good. been in this county 16 years. there is a reason the dnr hasn't implemented a one and done in this county and its not because of the money, solely.
shakyheadsabol I wonder how much of your success (and others on this site) this season is due to the current WV bag limits or the ability of many people around your area to take it upon themselves to show self restraint and use management tactics that produce what you are having the pleasure to experience. I am glad you had a great season as well as many other here but it may be that the state of WV is receiving good management grades from something that had nothing to do with the states management strategies. Just a thought that may or may not have merit.
Rutbuster I appreciate what you are saying but the opposite could be said as well - how many people here are giving the state a bad grade on management when it could be their own doings or those around them doings? My Dad and uncle were my hunting mentors and they were two of the best turkey hunters I have ever know but they were not very good deer hunters. I don’t know the reason why - i don’t think I hunted that much harder than them - I may have walked a little further but I was always there for them to drag their kill out. When I was young I started reading the Wensel and Rothhaar books and trying to learn as much as I could about bucks - and it paid off I guess. I surely don’t think I was any smarter than them (well now I don’t when I was young and dumb maybe I did LOL). It just seemed like most years I would drag out a nice buck and then go back and drag out a spike or small 4 point for them. Now there were a few times they got a really nice buck but it was not often.
And for years on here during the debates about landowners having to get a license I flipped-flopped on the issue and said I thought landowners or private individuals have done just as much if not more than any state’s DNR has done so is it really right to charge them to hunt their own land. So I will agree that yes we can do a lot on our own to improve our land and timber. But our DNR has given us more public land to hunt than many of the states surrounding us, they have implemented in some areas a shoot a doe before the second buck program, they have curbed the population that was way out of wack but still needs some work on—- have they done enough to everyone’s liking? The answer even for me would be no.... but seriously to give them an F just because they won’t implement the magical lower buck limit just doesn’t seem right to me as well.
MP - imagine if the state was bow only and still had a 3 buck limit - I bet we would be seeing some monster as well.
We would because of the type of weapon it is. You can bet if Logan county had a 3 buck limit a bunch of small bucks would get shot because hunters could hold out for monsters with other tags. As it is now,you don't go to those counties to shoot spikes. The rest of the state spikes get shot.
Becoming a bow only state would be a form of herd management for sure. A two week gun season kills a lot of small bucks that will never ever grow old and mature. That is why when a few years back bus loads of hunters came from the counties to oppose gun hunting down there. They knew what would become of their bucks if guns were allowed.
Many hunters go to the four counties to hunt trophy bucks and many hunters from the four counties hunt the rest of the state and shoot small bucks. It should not be that way
well on tv they kill the small deer and call them cull or management deer. That is what I do. I kill the lil bucks so they don't pass their genes on to the deer herd. LOL
people hunt all around us. I have 80 acres beside me that I can hunt but so does the landowner. then another 114 behind me that the colonel owns and lets me hunt but his kids do as well. property in font of us one person hunts. up the road a few families hunt. my neighbor to the right on the 80 acres killed a small 8 and a button. colonel kids killed two does. guy across the street killed an 8 and I think he was the one that wounded the one I harvested. two or three bucks got hit on 219 beside my house. I wish I could get them all to manage for better bucks, but most just want meat and shoot the first thing they see. what I think does not happen though and the reason for much of my success here in Monroe county is the fact that most hunters here don't use all three buck tags. I cant name one single person I know that has killed three bucks in one season in the 16 years I have lived here. I admit we went a little overboard here killing 4 bucks on 5 acres, but when I see 5 times that many still running around, it is the basis for my complaint about reducing the number of deer a person can harvest here. I have admitted untold times that some of wv may be different, but in my neck of the woods, a one and done, or a two and done, or a one and one with antler restrictions will be useless here and only lead to overpopulation, disease, and less habitiat. I am a big believer of people going to school, getting a degree, and using that degree and practical knowledge towards our deer herd. let the biologists do their work. they know better than all the rest. don't believe me? look at our wildlife from 1900 to 2017. if they say a one and done is the right thing, I will support them. If they say two and done is the right thing, I will support them. sorry, but I cant support a group of guys wanting change that differs from the beliefs of those which know the science the best.
If no one is using three buck tags then then in order to produce bigger deer they will have to go to one buck.
That is my point Babysaph. We as hunters are already managing the herd by not shooting 3 bucks. I'm sure some do take 3 bucks but a lot of people have already decided that they will not take that many bucks due to results that they have experienced by showing restraint. I believe the state has done a great job of restoring the deer population to its current levels and we as sportsmen have benefited from their management practices. It just seems like there has not been the evolution of management practices here in WV that most states have experienced.
Rutbuster I will agree with you on the evolution of management practice here in the state but I don’t think the fault has been as much in the DNR as it has been with the majority of our hunters. I think for years most people here felt like throwing a bag of corn on the ground or dumping a truck load of apples out was managing deer! I think we have improved on that though here lately but I do think we have been late to the party on it compared to other states. I think the push for better land and timber management and educating the majority of hunters is going to help and will improve things much more than by lowering a limit when very few kill multiple bucks. Oh and yes I understand the that it would supposedly keep some of the 20% of successful from shooting a small buck but again what is to say the other 80% of hunters who were not successful won’t then shoot the young buck that you or I pass on? I still think a simple 5 points or better AR’s rule would serve better in allowing bucks to get older.
Oh MP I disagree with you on a lot of young bucks would be shot if the bow only counties had a 3 buck limit because no matter if it were WV or any other state that has multiple buck limits very few hunters kill a second or third buck. I bet it is even a less percentage when it comes to being just bowhunters as well.
I agree JayD there are many different avenues that can be taken to help improve our deer management. The answer doesn't lay on one specific fix. I think it is a case of all the little things added up that could make a big difference in WV.
With a 3 buck limit in the rest of the state a lot of small bucks get killed. I dont think the 4 counties would be any different. A 1 buck limit would slow down the killing of spikes I bet
well I think that if most people are not taking a 3rd buck that just means that the state has the 3 buck limit to sell tags. Heck, I bet some would by a tag if they allowed 4 or 5 bucks. and it would not put a dent in the deer population. Whats not to like? Cha Ching
JayD, how many you say not that many people kill 2 or even 3 bucks, so why even have it available? I would venture to say lots of people kill 2 buck, and not so many 3......BUT......they shoot the 1st immature buck they see, knowing they have 2 more tags left to "trophy" hunt.
How many people this year would have shot the buck they shot, knowing they only had 1 tag? I bet a lot would have not have. That where we need to look. The bow only hunting definitely helps out in the 4 bow counties, but you cant dismiss the 1 and done either. Same principle as above. How many would shoot the first 2.5 year old or younger buck in the bow zone,knowing they had another tag?? again, lots..
So why not have it? It brings in more money and it allows me more time to hunt. And yes I hunt does as well but call me a game hog I like the opportunity to be able to hunt a second buck and I don’t shoot small deer. I don’t have a problem if someone does though. Limit me to one buck here and as soon as I kill one here I will go to another state - so in doing that I spend less time with my family , I will stop putting as much money into planting food plots and trees here because I will use that money to hunt else where. Also that means instead of hunting here my money will be spent in other states. And I most certainly will stop buying tags here and just use my lifetime licenses or landowner tag. And the thing about it there won’t be one bit of improvement here where I hunt because my area is more similar to PA than KY or OH and one and done did nothing for PA . To be honest with you I have not been convinced that one buck limit did anything in KY or OH except to send their hunters elsewhere to hunt as well! Sort of find it funny in WV some are talking one buck limit and there is talk in both PA and KY of increasing the limit to raise more funds. As to how many multiple bucks are killed in WV I have not heard yet this year but I did email a Dnr employee to find out. If I remember before the percentage was in the single digits I believe. And just remember I think the normal success rate is right around 20% of all hunters get even just one buck.
From the way it looks, the people killing 3 bucks is more "sectional" than anything else. What I mean by that is there are certain areas that have as many hunters as they have bucks. When everyone knows that, they kill the first one they see. Then the next, etc. Other areas, with fewer hunters, allow a person to be more selective. I think we are seeing that now by proxy - there are less hunters in the woods today than there were 10 or 20 years ago. But again, this is "sectional" - there may be cases in certain small areas (or farms for instance) where that doesn't occur. I think they way one votes depends upon which situation they are facing. I'm not one for "horn porn" and I want to make the determination for myself what is a "mature" deer or whatever euphemisms others may want to use and not have someone else make that determination for me. So what if they kill a small or immature deer? That means they didn't get a big one which is still out there for me and you. Basic biology and genetics will tell you that roughly 50% of the deer born in a given year are bucks - there are still plenty more - but only if you hunt in the right places. Find the right place you'll find your buck. It really is that simple but it might require a little legwork. Finally, I agree with Sabol. Whatever the DNR believes is best I will follow.
Yes 50% of the fawns born are bucks, but we as a state kill more buck than does.. To me its simple math,,,,1 and done leaves how many more bucks carried over to the next year...Those same bucks cant be carried over if they are shot this year...or with an APR on the 2nd, still more buck carried over......Less bucks killed , more does ( in some areas, this to should be county to county) equals a healthier herd.
I
I do now what JayD does. I just shoot deer here then go to another state. I killed a 160 buck in Idaho in December in a week of hunting. I have never killed one here in years of hunting. And that is the second one I killed there. It appears to me that most just want to shoot a buck. Period. As evidenced by the answers to the question on another thread as to whether you would shoot the buck you shot this year if we had one and done. And JayD is right about Pa. The state wants more money.
Congrats JR, let’s see a pic!
Congrats, Babyasph , I am curious to know what is buck limit in Idaho ?
Hey JR - curious to know - private land or public! If private - how large was the ranch? How many hunters are allowed into the area? Mostly forest or agriculture?
Babysaph , Just what I thought a one buck limit, Just think what a one buck limit would do for WV in few years , Look at what the one buck limit has done for some of wv wma like McClintic WMA here in mason co, I know of 3, 150 plus bucks take there last fall, and in 2016 a 167 was taken with muzzle loader .
Hoppie, it’s simply amazing how that works. Who woulda thought?
No, it can't be a one buck limit. No PROOF that it works. Too many other variables.
Of course, no PROOF for a three buck limit being magic but some cling to it.
You see Sunday it happens when you use your noggin a little bit and realize there are more factors to it then just a limit but some cannot comprehend that. For you to not consider the other factors is just wrong - and again there are parts of this state that would be just like PA and the limit would not do squat but go on and keep fantasizing about your one buck limit. Again you keep bringing up about a 3 buck limit - I say the limit really isn’t the major deciding factor that it more so the many others I have discussed - but keep dreaming buddy - maybe one day your dreams will come about - just be prepared for reality if they do!
It was private land. I am not sure how big it is but it is significant. And the rancher had access to a couple neighboring ranches. Guys we can argue until we are blue in the face but if the DNR says that not many hunters are killing multiple bucks then there has to be another reason for our tiny bucks. Maybe we just kill too many of them. Period. We all know that the DNR is not going to do anything to lose money and if the multiple buck tags are not affecting the buck kills then we need to do something else. I am for having bigger bucks but the DNR has said that the multiple tags are not what is causing our smaller bucks.
It was private land. I am not sure how big it is but it is significant. And the rancher had access to a couple neighboring ranches. Guys we can argue until we are blue in the face but if the DNR says that not many hunters are killing multiple bucks then there has to be another reason for our tiny bucks. Maybe we just kill too many of them. Period. We all know that the DNR is not going to do anything to lose money and if the multiple buck tags are not affecting the buck kills then we need to do something else. I am for having bigger bucks but the DNR has said that the multiple tags are not what is causing our smaller bucks.
You are right about one thing Babysaph WV Dnr is not going to do any thing to lose money. I would like to see the numbers of hunters who buy 3 buck tags, as compared to hunters who kill 3 bucks . I am for one buck period but settle for dropping limit down to a 2 buck limit , with someway to offset cost of losing that third buck tag.
With the new check in they know exactly how many people kill 3 bucks. I read on here where someone quoted the DNR as saying the number of people killing 3 bucks was in the single digits. So where I went to school that is 9 or less. That is not very many. I assume that people buy the extra buck tags. And you are right the DNR simply can't lose money. We are kind of stuck with what we have. The only real way to do it is reduce the season and we all know that won't happen. We could have antler restrictions like 10 points or better.
I've hunted in states where you have to bring the whole carcass out.
Hmmm , single digits for people killing 3 bucks..........I know of 5 people doing it.
If you go back and read I said the percentage is single digits for hunters killing a second or third buck I know it was that either last year or the year before. I sent an email to the DNR to find out the numbers but have not heard anything as of yet.
Oh ok. my mistake. I thought it was single digits. But to know the effect we need to know how many bucks were killed by hunters using all three tags. I also know guys that do it. Where on the DNR site can I go to look this up? I know that they know exactly and in real time the number now with the electronic check in. Heck they even know the names of the guys doing it.
I will be anxious to see those figures. Maybe people taking 3 bucks could be under 10 percent but no way those hunters taking 2 bucks is under 10 percent. We shall see if they even release those figures.
I read that wrong as well......single digit percentage...........With the new check in system, you would think that info would be readily available..
I did not get the numbers last year and have not heard back from DNR yet for this 2017, but in 2015 - around 70,000 bucks were killed - about 9500 were a second buck killed by someone and 1241 were a third buck killed by someone. So when you consider according to the DNR there were around 330,000 hunters that comes out to 2.8% of hunters kill multiple bucks. It’s about 14% of the bucks harvested are a second or third buck. It will be interesting to see the numbers from 2016 and 2017. I read that where in 2017 it was estimated that there were 550,000 deer in WV, So if you figure that just a third of them were does bearing fawns that would be 183,000 does since some bear twins lets say 183,000 does have 1.25 fawns that is 229,000 fawns - lets say half are button bucks that’s a little over 114,000 button bucks. Seems to me that we should be replacing the bucks we kill each year with some to spare. I know its is not precise but I think I am pretty conservative with the numbers I used but I also realize that predation, car kills and disease of the herd has not been factor in as well.
Gobbler should be able to get the info I would think.
By your 2016 harvest numbers jayd , if wv were a one and done state ,10,741 bucks could have been around for the 2017 season, just think if 1/3 of 10,741 were 2.5+ Sure i know that is a reach to look at that way. I believe and practice 1 and done and I hope someday it will happen in my home state of WV.
Jayd you based your percentages on 330,000 hunters , Should be based on number of hunters who took a buck, cant tag a second or third buck without killing 1 first . So all those hunters that didnt take a buck should not be included in the equation to get the correct percentages you most throw out the number of hunters who didnt kill 1 buck.
10,741 second and third bucks taken in 2016 divide that into 6 hunting districts = 1,790 bucks per district , or 210 bucks a county ,Never will convince me that 1 and done would not make a big difference in just few years in age class of wv buck deer.
Jayd,
In 2015, 66,374 bucks were killed in firearm season alone. Not mentioning archery and muzzleloader. Of course, you are going to say that's an even smaller percentage of hunters killing a second or third buck but we don't even know how many of those 330,00 hunters were out in the woods in 2015.
Simply, lowering the limit works. Should it be done in conjunction with other strategies? Yes, but the only method we have somewhat control over is lowering the buck limit.
Hoppies the one numbers I spoke of were from 2015 not 2016 - no problem but just wanted to clear it up. You know when you break it down in to such small divisions such as 6 or 55 counties it seems pretty impressive for you.
So what I am saying that that out of all hunters less than 3% kill a multiple buck but if you want to use just successful hunter that’s fine so out of successful hunters about 14% kill multiple bucks. Still does not sound like much to me when you consider that the success rate of hunters is right around 20%. So 14% of 20% of all hunters kill multiple bucks.
So lets take it a step further: i have read where in 2017 it was estimate we have around 550,000 deer in WV. WV is about 15.5 million acres. So when you use those number or at least when I use them - that tells me on average there are about 35.5 deer per 1000 acres here. So in 2017 we killed a total of 108000+ deer and 44,000+ bucks(rifle season only) during the 2017 season. Again using the numbers I come up with: we killed 6.97 deer per 1000 acres and of those 6.97 dead deer - 2.85 bucks per 1000 acres during gun season. Now again I do not have the 2017 numbers for multiple buck kills so I will use 2015 and remember more bucks were killed in 2015. So using these numbers - in 2015 .6 hunters killed multiple bucks per 1000 acres - so basically 1 hunter per 1650 acres killed multiple bucks. Now the bigger picture shows that .08 hunters killed a third buck per 1000 acres - this is going by th 1241 number of third bucks the DNR says were killed and using 15.5 million acres that I googled that WV is made up of. Sorry I just don’t buy the fact that hunters killing multiple bucks are hurting a thing and that the revenue from those hunters is helping a bunch more. I applaud you wanting to do what you think will help our deer herd - I just don’t see that it will help really any at all when you look at the numbers. Again I think better timber and land management along with some minor tweaks of some regulations is the way to go. I am going to post an article I read a little bit ago that had some interesting things in it from James Crum one of our biologist. I had not seen this article before and it explains some things - again i think our DNR is doing a great job for us even though I do not agree with everything they do and I do trust them.
Article says , another aspect of deer management is trying to maintain a better buck to doe ratio this is attempted by adjusting bag limits of antlered and antlerless deer by county . What counties had a bag limit of less that three bucks? I am not totally against wv dnr just dont agreed with some management practices, I was glad to read in this article that we are at a end of 5 year plan . So maybe we shall see some changes in 2018 management practices , Meeting Feb 25 2018 of Natural Resources Commission on that agenda proposed 2018 big game hunting regulations we shall see, Public is invited to attend and make comments . I am hoping for big turn out
Another article by Crum, let's focus on number 1 in his article.
So why are we constantly killing more bucks than does year after year?
Well gobbler it sounds like we are with in the perimeters of what they want killed. Minimum of 70 does to every 100 bucks. Just by going with the buck kill to antlerless kill I think the number is about 77 to 100. I know that doesn’t include the bow or muzzleloader kill but I can’t imagine it would change it that much. I would assume you have ask our biologist this same question - I would like to know the answer you have gotten?
JR one question - the place in Idaho that you got you buck - I believe you said it was a rather large ranch - so if it were 3000 acres - if they harvested just 2 more bucks off of it this year do you think it would have made the place so terrible for hunters? I am not trying to pick on you here - I would just like to know if you think it would make a tremendous difference in what you saw there - I trust your opinion on this.
Nope. Would not have made one difference.
Wv has a hunter density of over 10 PSm. Idaho has well under one PSm for deer, mainly mule deer. No comparison. Apples to socket set comparison.
For a population to decrease you must kill more doe's than bucks, not 77 does for 100 bucks. We've been over bow season being buck heavy and muzzleloader season being doe heavy and since bow has much more participation it ends up being buck heavy between the two.
Sunday not going to disagree with what you said - but I don’t think you are on the same page as the biologist are. To stabilize the population it needs to be minimum of 70 does to 100 bucks. And to decrease the herd size it says that we need to have above 40% of harvested females. Again I trust our biologist to do their job and some don’t - I understand.
One year of unpublished data doesn't make anything concrete. When we can see some numbers of where the total doe harvest has not succeeded the buck harvest as a pattern, then we can begin to say that the norm is we have been killing more bucks then does. Right now we have one years worth of info. If you have more, publish it please. I keep hearing about it but, it surely shouldn't be privy info. Nor should it be considered the gospel until we see reason to. I'm not being a wise guy but, if you have that info, post it. Until then, its only a claim I've seen one years worth of second hand data on. And, I'm not denying what you have posted up to this point but, if you can get one years, you can get more. It would help us all in our decisions.
I only have one question though. Since we have been killing more bucks then doe's for a long time, how did the state see such a total reduction in deer over the first decade of the 21st century? EVERY deer hunter knows that most of the state does not have the numbers of deer we used too. So it makes sense that bucks kills will be down some with less hunters, less total deer, etc...... I only wander how the herd was reduced if we always killed many more bucks then doe's, as the numbers say we did during the first decade of the 21st century. It takes does dying to reduce the herd from year to year. And, according to Cory's chart of doe kills to buck kills, it takes quite a few more doe kills then buck kills to reduce the population. SINCE WE ALL AGREE THE POPULATION HAS TRENDED DOWN QUITE A BIT FROM 15 YEARS AGO, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN WHEN DOE KILLS DO NOT EXCEED BUCK KILLS?
I capitalized that to make sure everyone understands the question. No to be a smart guy. God Bless men
Coyotes, bears, etc. Predators that were at a far lower concentration 15 years ago.
Btw, the chart came from wvdnr, and if I remember correctly James Evans was our head deer biologist before Crum.
The 25 year data has been posted before. You are privy to it because its in the big game bulletin.
I'm under the belief from being told as is, those numbers do not include muzzle loader and bow harvest's. Only gun harvest's for specific buck and doe seasons. Where's the numbers of bucks and does kills for the bow and muzzle loader for those years? That's the one year comment I made. Not based on gun harvests only. That is why I've applied a buck to doe ratio to the total harvests for those weapons to come up with a general over all harvest tally by sex. It's the only way I know to do it without having the specific numbers. If you have a source to produce those numbers, please share it. It'll shed some light on the subject instead of having to make an educated guess.
I can dig the predator effect. However, we all know the biggest predator in that equation is human. We far out number the other's influences combined. So, in order to reduce the herd in such an effective way, based on that chart, we and all the other predators are killing a WHOLE lot more does then bucks. By comparison, 12 more does to every 20 bucks. That's 32 does to every 20 bucks. It's been a while since I did ratio's but, based on the same proportional ratio that's roughly 33,000 more does a year then bucks To accomplish that feat. How is it then that we humans are killing more bucks then does over all but, our herd has suffered such a drastic reduction? Are all the other predators just killing does?
That table is all harvests(buck, doe, archery, muzzleloader, youth) since 1993.
Predators kill young such as fawns. When fawns die we have no new recruitment. Fawns are roughly 50/50 male and female at birth. Fawns dying within their first two weeks do nothing to replenish the population. Couple fawn mortality with hunting seasons on adult deer and we have declining populations.
So where do I go to see how many hunters kilt 3 bucks? I can't find it but I just learned how to use the microwave.
I just got an email back from DNR - so for 2017 there was a total of 53613 bucks killed.
Out of those - 6367 were a second buck killed by a hunters and only 683 hunters killed a third buck.
And 3013 button bucks were killed.
They estimate we have a deer population of about 614,000.
Why isn't all of this info posted to their website for the public to view? Do they not want us to see this info or does the website need upgraded to be able to handle that info?
IDK, I’ve asked for years for the archery/muzzleloader kills to be broken down into buck/antlerless in the yearly big game bulletin but it never is.
Well now they know so I would say it's a secret
How many of the hunter id numbers have been issued?
My daughter has a hunter IDnumber but didn't hunt last year. My father has a hunter ID number but hasn't hunted in a few years.
Does having an ID number mean you bought a license? I assume they know how many licenses were bought.,
No, everyone that checks game in has to have an ID#, even landowners that aren’t required to have a license. It does help keep track of all hunter numbers now.
I am aware that everyone who has a number doesn't hunt every year. Is there a better way to estimate how many actual hunters we have?
The DNR has an estimate but an estimate is all it is. I don’t think there is anyway to know for sure because of landowner tags, lifetime licenses, and senior licenses, and other tags like that. Plus, just because some buys a license it isn’t 100% that they hunt that year.
So what do they estimate? You usually hear anywhere from 250-400k around rifle season on the radio. I have always wondered how they guess those numbers.
good point gobbler. It really is hard to tell who is hunting. And don't forget the number of hunters that hunt without a license. Some do that too. I can not imagine hunting and looking over my shoulder while doing so.
IDK how they come up with estimate. I would think it would be a formula based upon license sales and past years data but IDK for sure
