Missouribreaks's Link
I'm looking forward to getting to camp some time, hopefully soon, to do some hinge cutting of some cedars. I'll be creating bedding areas while providing valuable browse.
Ice fishing has been pretty good considering the deep cold we've had. Life is Grand!!! Make the best out of whatever situation you have.
I have challenged you before and I'll challenge you again to show me any thread where I have claimed to be a crossbow user or state that I planned to use one. I know you will strike out. You just like to spew nonsense and negativity. If you look closely, you'll see that I intend to try traditional gear this year. I have already talked with multiple people on Bowsite about them. I can provide names if you would like but that would not fit your agenda.
Is there a state board on Bowsite where you have not started this doom and gloom thread? I see you have one of the BGF too. It must suck to be so miserable all the time. You should just hunt some time and not worry so much about others. You might still find some happiness in the woods. You should consider selling me your trad gear since bowhunting is dead and it causes you consternation.
It really is a shame that you can't find peace and solitude in the woods anymore and that compound and xbow hunters ruin your sits. Your misery wants company but you won't get it from me or many others who still like bowhunting and that drives you nuts. The next time you post anything positive will the first you've done so on Bowsite.
Sell your gear. Sell your land. Bowhunting is dead.
I have 2 compound bows... both will serve me for a lifetime.... My main shooter I have been shooting for about a decade...
How much more advanced can compounds get ?? Guys are already shooting them out to 80 yards..... next will be putting scopes on them to shoot out to 150 yards......
No thanks..... I'll stick with what I have......
Then came training wheels and the masses.
So you see, your "issue" is a non issue. It is just the way it is.
BTW- I only use the "training wheels" comment for fun. I don't give flying fig what anyone uses as long as they keep it legal.
In the above paragraph, none of this is as true during the crossbow revolution. Crossbows are simply another advancement in making killing easy. Crossbows are not a recruitment tool other than moving more hunters from other seasons and into the general archery seasons. No net hunter recruitment, in fact culturally ended bowhunting in the mind of some supportive voters who believed bowhunters hunted the hard way.
I wish it was in decline, than I would have less competition in the woods, ha ha,,,, come to the UP in the fall, I can assure you, hunting is going full on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Compounds have only been around 50 years, its fun to shoot, and got more people involved.....
Cross bow has been around since the 6th century, still shoots one arrow,,,,,,,,
I like my recurve, but its all good,,,,, my only concern is the mgt of habitat,,,,,, I also enjoy all of my fellow hunters for the most part,,,, we are all truly blessed to live here in this country
That is just what bowhunters need, having guns during the archery season. What a terrible idea and a recipe for disaster. Dumbest thing I’ve ever read on a bowhunting site. The deer herd would be decimated in 1 year. Is Mb (Jimmy James from Montana) really an anti whose purpose on Bowsite is to further divide hunters?
Personally the crossbow is not legal for the late season anyway where I am at, and so they have the early season,,,,,,,, what you guys worry about it is unreal,,,,,
want to worry about something, try the 3rd floor of Frodert hospital in Milwaukee where I was last October,,,,,, see people who really have concerns, and then come here and listen to these petty arguments on bows,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
carry on
Anybody that would propose 1 season, any weapon, is clearly not a bowhunter. A shit stirrer, yes. A bowhunter, not a chance.
If you ever deer hunted here in Michigan during rifle deer season... There's no way that you would push for one all inclusive season if you are a bowhunter... Not unless you like seeing the orange army everywhere you go....
Misssouri is right Big Bear,,,, it is coming to a point, you do not have a archery season you will have a arrow season,,,, want to bet, they will push for the "air bow",,,,, I would take that bet.......
Point is, MI does not have clear enough stats and data on their deer kills anyway, I have no idea on how they can project anything,,,,,,,
Air Bow: I have heard that at least one Mi legislator is wanting make the air bow legal.
You mean my friend who had a disabled permit prior to full-inclusion? Do you really discriminate against disabled people? I don't. I welcome them with open arms. Keep trolling Mb. You make yourself look lower class with every post. You are quite the anti there Jimmy James from Montana - LOL.
Kudos to MI for having some differences in the season structure by not allowing xbows (other than for those with permits) in the UP during the muzzleloader season or late bow season. That was foresight.
I plan on using one for MI bear this year
I really do not have any issues with the xbow,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, they do not bother me
If you want to hunt with a longbow or recurve..... have at it. No one is stopping you.
Why do you need someone else to respect your kill of an animal ???
Some guys like to post pictures of the animals they kill. Some guys like to have their kills recorded in a record book.... Some don't. That has zero to do with what weapon you choose.
I hunt with a compound bow. Sometimes a recurve bow. Sometimes a rifle, or a shotgun... or a muzzle loader.
Nothing at all has changed about that since I started hunting about 36 years ago.
Why are they leasing now ?? To have a place to hunt. The landowners......?? They realized that they can make some money instead of letting guys hunt for free....
I think you're full of crap. Sorry.
Hunt public land. No one will prevent you from hunting with a longbow there. There's more than ample public land to do that in Michigan...
Or better yet buy your own land and do your own thing.......
In the 60's,, Michigan averaged about 858,000 licenses sold. Recent numbers are closer to 600,000. So it would be more accurate in my opinion.... to say there is a decline in overall hunting in Michigan.....
There's enough public land in Michigan that I could hunt in bow season on public land and never see another hunter if I wanted.... guaranteed. Where I hunt in the U.P. I see very few bowhunters in October. Almost none. That includes compounds and or trad gear and or crossbows......
Numbers matter. If fewer people hunt, the voice's of support will not be there (#'s) to speak up when the State Legislators, start to restrict or perhaps ban hunting altogether. As with all politics you need many voice's to speak up / out for an issue as well as the financial support.
With fewer hunter's purchasing a hunting licence there is less money to finance the State DNR's, the enforcement of game laws, the purchase of habitat, the investigative science of determining disease that effects / infects wildlife.
Non-hunting tax payer's aren't going to foot the bill for our hunting or pay for the up keep of State Land. We only need to look and listen to those in power that are trying to give away Federal Land, due to it's so called burdensome cost. Will this ($) become the issue to divest / sell off State Land or Forest ?
IMHO, less hunters is not the answer.
Better education to the non hunting public is essential, getting young people involved and supportive of hunting is another. Supporting political candidates who do not try to give away our public land. Visit our state and national elected representatives to lobby for our position's. Call them out when they fail to respond to our concerns. Support the candidates who support out position.
Clean up our own ranks, call out slob hunters, those to lazy to pack out the garbage they or someone else left in the forest. Report those who damage or steal another person's property. Contact the judge who may preside over the game violation or theft insisting the violator receive the harshest of penalty.
Having less ground to hunt is an issue due in part to loss of habitat, i.e. development of housing / sub-division's, sale of farms, leasing for profit, bad experiences by land owner etc. These are just a few of the reasons why there is less opportunity and more competition for hunting space / areas.
There are many things we can and must do if we wish to be able to continue to hunt.
Having fewer numbers is not going in the right direction.
Perhaps a good look in the mirror is the place to start ?
:^}
I have never whined about to many hunters afield. Nor do I complain about crossbows. I heard the same negative rhetoric when I switched from a traditional bow to a compound 45 years ago. Crossbows are here to stay, just like the compound. If it helps a person continue to hunt or introduces them to hunting I say great.
My biggest peeve is hunters / people trashing the forest / woods. To me throwing garbage out or leaving trash in the woods is kind of like the fellow who cannot lift the commode seat to take a leak. Doesn't seem to be their problem unless they have an emergency but first need to clean up the seat before they can use it :^}
I have lost property to hunt on occasion for who knows ? This said, I know there is State Land, National Forest Land to hunt. May not be my first choice but it is a choice. If I have other hunters in the area I hunt, so be it. I have made some life long friends in this manner. (hunting public ground)
Personally I enjoy being in the woods, my stand or just scouting. I would never begrudge another hunter for doing what I love to do. However I would judge him or her harshly if they were a slob and or did not treat the forest or me with respect.
* ? APR ?
Rest assured I did not take it personally.
In fact I would say thank you for this thread as I am in complete agreement with you first post after your initial link.
I believe a youngster should be taught woodsman-ship, to be stewards of the land prior to hunting.
IMHO, it will serve them a life time
:^}
Crossbows are a joke, and belong in any gun season, either deer or turkey or bear, but to say they should be full inclusion of the archery season, again is a joke, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
A bow should be hand drawn,,,,,,, geesh put some effort into it......
Unfortunately many who claim to be bowhunters on this forum actually are crossbow supporters. They are closet crossbow users, ....buy crossbows for their children, their families, their camp buddies, look for any medical excuse, claim to own one but not hunt with it,.... you know the type. They are closet crossbow supporters and users!
My granddaughter, was diagnosed with bone cancer at 6.5 years of age. She has a prosthetic implanted in her arm since (17 yrs). There is no way she will ever be able to pull any type of "vertical" bow, stick, or compound. She loves to deer hunt and has taken several deer with her "cross-bow" I would dare any of you if you had the opportunity to meet her, to tell her face to face she is not a bow hunter. Believe me she considers herself to be a bow hunter and I also consider her to be one too !
It appears to me to many who criticize the crossbow have no since of history !
The crossbow was invented between 500 AD and 750 AD probably by the Chinese, the compound around 1967-68 AD by an engineer named Allen. So I would ask anyone which weapon, crossbow or compound is more primitive ?
* Please note, The crossbow historically has never been referred to as any type of gun. Bowsite, excluded.
Missouri, You do have a long stick
:^}
However I have a Big Question ?
Since verbiage is or can be everything defining .
Would I be lying to my child if I told him or her we are not really bow hunting, we are compound hunting ?
Hummmmmmmmm ???
I guess the responsible thing to do is just tell your child,....... "We are hunting " (species tbd)
:^}
Gee must be a reason, you can not use a cross bow, in the late season in the UP....
What difference does it make,,,, well Big Bear, watch how your seasons will change, as the popularity continues......
I wish there was a primitive season, but those days are long gone..... The ML season is a single shot rifle season now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I guess I just remember when someone had to put some effort forth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I will leave it at that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
There are those that just don't get it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Make bowhunting great again, take a child REAL bowhunting!
Let the bashing commence.
My son did not start compound hunting until he was 13 because he was not proficient enough at age 12. Neither of us have ever shot an xbow and I hope we never have to but if the time came and it was the difference between hunting and not hunting, I would think very hard about it. I have 2 disabled friends who shoot them and hate them. They were both awesome with their compounds and now actually shoot less deer. My one friend's son shot his xbow when he was 10 and 11 and now shoots a compound. I think kids in general want the challenge.
buci313, I'm sorry to hear about your granddaughter. The "titles" people here place on others mean nothing in real life. There is a poster in this thread who is very low class and does discriminate against the disabled though. He judges people via their weapon of choice while hunting and not via who they are as people. No names are necessary. He'll be posting very quickly discriminating against me and my son for shooting compounds and not trad gear. He thinks he's a better person in life than others based solely on the gear he hunts with. Yes, that is very strange, but it is who he is. He'll accuse me of being an xbow supporter because of my disabled friends who use them and the fact I am still friends with them based on their weapon (not of choice in this case.)
Hunters are the most divided group of hobbyists in the world. Hunters are always further dividing other hunters. The anti's just have to sit back and laugh at all the internal imploding that takes place on every single hunting message board. Bowhunters are the worst IMHO. You are not only belittled on whether you shoot trad or compound, you'll be bashed on broadheads of choice, accessories, size of the deer, ground hunting or tree stands, etc.
I won't try to tell anyone that they are bowhunting if they hunt with a crossbow..... I'll tell them they are HUNTING.....
Why don't you focus on passing down bowhunting to someone instead of spending all your efforts complaining about a fight against crossbows in archery season that has long since been lost......
Historians are generally inclusive of the history that preceded the current point of the history of the subject being viewed. There is no doubt regarding the history of the bow being factual. In order, the long bow, re-curve bow, composite bow, cross bow, compound bow.
Missourri,
Just who are these historians ?
Are you talking about someone who makes their own bow, arrows, knap's their own broad heads ? OR are you talking about re-curve bow hunter or a compound bow hunter, or a cross bow hunter ? :^}
I find it amusing from a historical point of view to hear a repeat (history) of the same comments / rhetoric I heard from the bow hunting community in the late 60's and early 70's. i. e. "it is not a bow, it is a mechanical device, it is an unfair advantage, it will bring too many other hunter's, people who cannot hold / draw a hunting weight bow (40 lbs) If they cannot shoot a hunting weight bow they should not be in the woods, next they will want to use a release" :^}
At my age it is hard to remember all of the negative remarks but those above are just a few I do recall :^}
I'll try to explain my personal reason / rationale for setting aside my re-cure bow and going to a compound. First and foremost my re-curve holding weight was 53 lbs. When the first compounds became available there was about a 12 lb let off at the full draw cycle. My first thought's were "WOW" I can shoot 65 lbs and still hold the same weight (53 lbs) at full draw. To me it was a no brainer, more shooting weight, same holding weight, shoots with a flatter trajectory. Done Deal.
Now I am only presuming the cross bow may give you the same dire feeling as a lot of those who voiced their concerns / opinion's regarding the compound. However, if I take to heart the position you advocate, " Crossbow Hunter's " are not real bow hunters.
Then I must presume that you consider me to be a non-bow hunter as I currently use a compound ?
PUZZLING ?
I am sort of confused here to truly grasp why you object so much to the crossbow ? Will it bring too many hunters into the woods. Will it allow too many hunter's to continue to hunt, there bye decreasing your chances to hunt or be successful ? Does the crossbow shoot to far, is it too silent, is it easier to get through the woods in order to hunt, is it easier to draw / cock.
It seems to me it may require less effort to learn to shoot, to get ready to hunt with, easier to shoot.
This said, isn't this precisely why most "Bow Hunters" today use the compound bow ?
I do not judge not a persons time constraints, physical abilities, or their equipment. I judge them by their desire to hunt, to be in the field / woods and the ability to be a gentleman / lady with other hunter's and the desire to continue to do so regardless of their legal hunting implement.
If this put's me in the minority...... I'm fine with being there.
:^} * brief historical point, "The Compound Bow" brought on the avalanche of modern bow hunters / hunting.
Oh, I remember another negative remark, "it's a fad, it will come and go"
Old age sure taxes the memory
:^}
I too enjoyed the dialogue very much.
:^}
Now I just wish winter would release its tight grip on the north. Another 8+" of snow are supposed to hit Esky this week and the temps don't want to warm. My spring work is going to be very late this year. I'll have apple trees delivered in a few weeks too.
Missouribreaks's Link
I have written off the UP till May 15th
I am really hoping to get trails cut this Thu in Esky but the new snow (up to 10" might hinder that). Last time I was up to camp, the crust on the snow was terrible. The Yotes were all over on my cameras. I had trails cut then too and the machine helped create better walking areas for the deer. Lots of cedar tops hit the ground from my chain saw and the trail cutting.
Missouribreaks's Link
Missouribreaks's Link
Missouribreaks's Link
1. Firearm
2. Muzzleloader
3. Archery
Like it or not, the crossbow clearly only meets one of those definitions.
KPC
KPC
Thank you. If we have an "archery" season here in MI, and as you said "crossbows are archery," what more is there to discuss?
We are all free to make our "archery season" experience whatever we'd like it to be, within the law. I choose to use a recurve, others chose to use a compound or a crossbow. Neither have any bearing on how I hunt or what I'd like out of my experience.
KPC
bugs are taking them out of the woods, but the deer look good. last Thursday I fished a brook trout stream, takes about a 20 minute hike. wow was there the bear sign back there, wish I had a tag, got to get a bait to that spot...... water is 56 degrees, lots of fish, and lots of good healthy deer trails,,,,,,,,,,,
I see no decline in deer hunting as of today
KPC
No way crossbow shooters are bow and arrow hunters, they are scoped crossbow and bolt hunters. Bow and arrow hunting is in decline.
No, because they do not meet the definition of what a "bow" is, therefore they are not legal in bow season.
"How about air bows if they become legal?"
See above.
KPC
I remember my dad saying when the compound came on the scene, "we are our own worst enemy". The mere fact that we are having this discussion proves his statement. Argue all you want but unless you have been there when archery was archery you won't know.
We have more bow hunters than we had pre-compound.
We have more deer than we had pre-compound.
We have longer seasons that we had pre-compound.
Like it or not, it's high time people come to the realization hunting seasons exist for the proper management of game, and hunters are the tools to get that job done. That's it. If you want to romanticize it, fine but that's your choice.
Those in charge of managing the game set the parameters of when, how, and how many of a given species need to be taken. As hunters, we have the right to make our personal hunting experience whatever we want it to be, within those parameters.
Game departments manage at the "macro" level and individual hunters hunt at the "micro" level.
I've been bow hunting for over 40 years so yes, I knew what it was pre-compound. I started with a recurve, switched to a compound for a while, and went back to a recurve over two decades ago. I could use a crossbow, but I choose not to. I could use a compound, but I choose not to. If they make "airbows" legal, I probably won't use one of those either. My hunt, my choice. Your hunt, your choice. As long as my personal safety or the viability of the resource itself is not adversely affected, I have no concern about what someone else wants their experience to be.
KPC
Ironically, everything that is being said about the crossbow is exactly what was said about the compound when it gained popularity. It was going to be the end of bowhunting as we knew it. It never happened.
In case you hadn't noticed there is a decline in hunters period, and it has nothing to do with technological advancements in weaponry.
" The good news for biologists, scoped crossbows might help reduce herd numbers in the face of CWD, that is unless available tag numbers are altered.
Even more ironic is in one breath you imply that the crossbow will be the death of bowhunting as we know it, and in the next breath you say it might help save deer hunting for future generations.
Interesting.
KPC
xbows are not the issue, wildlife science is.... Our biologist have been asking for doe tags, you can not stock pile them in the north.... the UP Wildlife groups have the politicians ears, and shut that down....
last 4 days of ML season, I saw 31 shootable deer, all does,,,,, when will they learn
Take pictures and send them to the NRC noting dates and places. I did it with bears and I believe it helped get the quota up.
While I agree in theory, an issued tag has never killed a deer. Hunters are responsible for that. I started the seasons with three tags. A combo tag and an antlerless permit. None of them have been punched, and not because of a lack of opportunity.
The DNR has a job to do and that is manage a deer herd based on an underlying set of goals. They will keep expanding seasons, methods, and weapons until their goals are reached. It really is as simple as that.
KPC
I bought 2 out of state tags and am still holding them by choice. I haven't punched any of my expensive out of state tags in the 4 years I've now owned my land in the UP. My weapon of choice (compound and gun) has no impact on my decisions or my fun in the woods.
Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion but it's been my experience that regardless of the topic, emotions and facts tend to be inversely proportional.
If you don't mind me asking, was not punching a tag on your land in the UP by choice? If so, would you mind sharing why?
KPC
It would not hurt to take more does off our land but I won't kill what I won't consume. My son and I each have a doe tag and he still has one of his combo tags left and I have a buck tag. We'll be back up for one last go of it after XMAS before the season closes. He killed a buck this year with his bow and the goal is to get a doe. He gets the 1st day and then I might let an arrow go if I get an opportunity. If the doe population was low on our land, I would not even buy doe tags.
I have chosen not to take any deer from my land as deer numbers have been steadily declining over the last few years. My land is surrounded by thousands of acres of public land and it tends to get hunted pretty hard. If I had an opportunity on a decent buck I would take it, but I've chosen to let the few does I see walk in the hopes that they will provide some fawns the following year. Not sure it does much good, but that's what I choose to do.
I usually also have opportunities to hunt other pieces of private land in the same county, so I usually apply for a an antlerless tag in case that opportunity presents itself, but even my go-to doe areas are showing much fewer deer.
It's an interesting time in my area for sure and with the CWD situation I don't see it getting much better any time soon.
KPC
Furthermore, I wonder what the condition of the deer herd, as well as their their habitat would be like if the only weapons allowed to hunt them were recurves and longbows?
KPC
If a guy stalks a bull elk for days in rough terrain out west and finally gets within 15 yards and shoots it with an xbow or compound, is that real hunting?
What about the guy who climbs mountains for a week+ to get within 100 yards of a sheep/ram and kills it with a gun, is that real hunting?
If a guy sits in a ground blind and has 2 gallons of corn in front of him waiting for a deer to come to him and he shoots it with a recurve (any weapon actually) while it is eating, is that real hunting? What if someone uses an artificial scent remover in their blind or stand like Ozonics to mask their scent, is that real hunting?
If a dog chases a bear into a tree or the bear has his head buried in a box of donuts and someone shoots it with a compound, is that real hunting? What if it were a recurve?
I'm guessing that gun hunting is not real hunting ever given when I read.
If I wear modern camo that has been washed in scent killer soap and then sprayed in scent killer spray versus wearing a loincloth like our forefathers, would that be real hunting regardless of weapon?
Someone please help solve the confusion here.
Jon, what about the questions about a guy killing a deer from a blind with it eating corn or the guy killing a bear with its head buried in a box of donuts? Is that real hunting or just target practice and does it matter if the weapon of choice is a compound or recurve? Fair chase has to come into play in the equation somewhere. This is an interesting topic.
That's great Jon, and you and I have every right to make our hunt everything we want it to be. When we start to judge someone else's hunt on what we want your hunt to be, then it becomes something else all together.
There are a number of methods and tactics that I don't happen to have any interest in, but rather than tell the people that are interested in them that it isn't real hunting, I just chose not to participate.
I don't use a flintlock, but I do use a side lock, and I also use a recurve. There are still many of us out there. I just don't happen to believe that it needs to be all of us.
Yes, this is a bow hunting site but bow hunting doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is (in all it's forms) part of an overall management plan which includes all forms of hunting, and combined they are designed to achieve certain goals. To suggest otherwise is to completely misunderstand why modern day hunting exists.
Lastly, I think this bears repeating. If everyone was only allowed to hunt the way you seem to enjoy hunting, our deer herd and the habitat in which it lives would suffer tremendously.
KPC
"My response was to the heading of the thread, decline of real hunting in Michigan. Real hunting ended the minute the compounds were allowed to be used. I used one for a few years and found them way too easy to use even as an instinctive archer. I see a deer at 20 yard or closer I just shot it. It took all the fun out of hunting. That thing hit the scene and the decline started. It makes it way too easy and if some hunter can't hit a deer with a compound they go to a crossbow. The decline of real hunting."
At the end of the day, "real bowhunting" or "real hunting" or "real archery" is whatever someone decides it is, based on the accepted laws/rules/definitions that govern such things.
Whether you, I , or anyone else likes it or not, a compound as well as a crossbow meet those things.
KPC
Come on Jon, you talk to me like I just started shooting a bow last week. Since this thread is about bow hunting, let's just look at that...realistically.
When I first started bow hunting in 1975, Michigan boasted a deer herd of about 750,000 deer. Now, with all the new seasons, new fangled equipment, and easier immediate gratification methods, our deer herd is twice that size, and that's down from what it was a decade ago.
Go back about ten more years to 1964, and Michigan had 46,000 bow hunters and they took 2800 deer for about a 6% success rate.
Fast forward 50 years to 2015, Michigan had about 320,000 bow hunters , who shot 110,000 deer, for a success rate of about 34 percent — well over five times the rate of 1964.
Bow hunters had a 77-day season, more than twice as many days as the archers had 50 years ago.
Yes, things have changed, but they needed to. It's not perfect by any means but in many parts of our state, we still can't (won't) kill enough deer to keep them within the carrying capacity of the habitat.
You seem to be avoiding this so I will bring it up again.
What do you think our deer herd and habitat would look like if bow hunting seasons, strategies, and equipment still looked like they did 50 years ago when bow hunting was "real?"
KPC
Hunting would be much better than it is now. (Is my guess)] But how will we know for sure. Stats will prove nothing but a maybe or a guess.
K Cummings's Link
What you are saying reminds me of an actual conversation I had with a client the other day. I don't remember how it came up but he was lamenting the fact that when he was a younger, every town seemed to have a roller rink. As a matter of fact, his first date, as well as his first kiss, with who would eventually become his wife of 60+ years was at the roller rink. When roller blades came along, that all changed. Roller skates and roller rinks have virtually become a thing of the past, but they gave way to an entirely new culture and industry and a whole set of new participants.
No, archery and bow hunting might not be the way you or I remember it, but things have a tendency of evolving both out of desire and necessity. Archery and bow hunting is no different.
Heck, in the sixties it wouldn't even be possible for all the people on this thread to even be having this conversation. But along came computers, the internet, cell phones and tablets and lo and behold here we are.
Lastly, there is a difference between speculation and fact. The statistics I posted from the sixties are facts. For a variety of reasons (mostly logging and agriculture) deer populations literally exploded between the 60's and the early 2000's. In order to at least attempt to keep them in check, the DNR was literally forced to expand opportunity in any way they could. Despite longer seasons, younger ages, more efficient weapons, and more liberal tag availability, many believe we still aren't killing enough deer to keep them within the carrying capacity of the habitat.
When I was a child, my Dad used to pull the car over if we even saw a deer. It was truly a majestic and exciting thing to see. Less than 10 years ago deer were so thick, we couldn't even have an ornamental plant around the house because the deer would eat them down to the ground, often in broad daylight, with people going abut their business around them.
When deer populations are allowed to expand like that (which is what would happen if we only allowed what some consider "real hunting" to take place) we start to see problems with disease, habitat destruction, personal property destruction, and a whole host of other negative things including and most importantly to the herd itself.
Sure, you might have great hunting for a while, until habitat destruction and disease cause the herd numbers to plummet like they had fallen off a cliff.
At the end of the day, the DNR has a job to do and that is to make sure that about a third of the deer population is harvested each year.
Ironically, if you look at the chart, bow hunter numbers took a big leap with the advent of the compound bow, and have remained more steady than firearm hunters by far. Yes, part of this is due to crossbow inclusion, but even so it's a good thing it has or deer hunting in Michigan, as well as the herd itself, would be in a world of hurt.
We can pine for the good old days and what once was, but at the end of the day when you take the emotion out of it, the facts speak for themselves.
You are welcome to have the last word on this one Jon. As I said before, in my opinion when a discussion or debate turns emotional, there is no sense in continuing it because at that point facts don't matter.
KPC
deer are really on the log jobs, wow
Missouribreaks's Link
What's funny is the notion that the ATA's concerns are for anything other than industry profits.
From the linked article:
"The statistics are worrying the Archery Trade Association, which represents the people and companies who manufacture and sell archery gear, including crossbows. At its April meeting, ATA board members voted to reconsider their anything-goes stance on crossbow technology and to consider reining them in."
Of course they're worried, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with what is or is not "real" bow hunting.
The ATA is a not a hunting organization, it is a trade organization that is predominantly concerned with maintaining industry profits.
From the ATA website:
" The Archery Trade Association is the organization for manufacturers, retailers, distributors, sales representatives and others working in the archery and bowhunting industry. The ATA has served its members since 1953. It is dedicated to making the industry profitable by decreasing business overhead, reducing taxes and government regulation, and increasing participation in archery and bowhunting. The organization also owns and operates the ATA Trade Show, the archery and bowhunting industry's largest and longest-running trade show worldwide."
And from an article in Arrow Trade Magazine:
,"Comments from retailers and a distributor on the board also indicated anecdotal evidence that crossbows are not serving as a gateway to other forms of archery. Since little practice is needed to stay proficient with them, that can hurt sales of arrows, releases, sights, and many other accessories that retailers depend on to stay profitable."
Make no mistake, I am in no way against maintaining and increasing profits, but the ATA's concern is not about what affect crossbows have on the "real" bow hunting culture. It's all about what affect they are having on the customary archery shop's bottom line.
KPC
Serious question.
How has the inclusion of crossbows in Michigan's archery season affected the way you personally bow hunt?
Be specific please.
KPC
The gun hunters in the U.P. (The U.P. Whitetails Assoc.)....argued to the NRC that crossbows are making it too easy to kill deer in the U.P.,,,, So they argued that does should be off limits during archery season . The deer biologists said that was not necessary. Yet the NRC gave in to the gun hunters and outlawed does across much of the U.P. They further sided with them that crossbows are too easy, and outlawed crossbows in the late Archery season (When very few people are still out hunting anyways).......
So,, Thanks to gun hunters that used the crossbow argument as leverage,,, I haven’t been able to legally shoot a doe on my property for several years.
They haven't affected me in any way shape or form either Jon. My bow hunting is the same post crossbow as it was pre crossbow, which is why I don't choose to get my shorts all in a bunch about something that simply doesn't my hunting in any way.
Simply put, I don't like them, never owned one, nor do I anticipate ever owning one. In terms of my bow hunting, they don't exist.
BB:
It is my understanding that the no antlerless situation resulted from severe winter kill and was simply an attempt to allow the herd to rebound. You are welcome to make the crossbow the boogie man, but I don't happen to believe it had that much of an affect on the decision.
I haven't shot a doe on my property either. Not because I couldn't but because I chose not to. Deer numbers in my area are down and I just can't see taking a doe and exacerbating the problem.
KPC
K Cummings's Link
"Due to a decline in the deer population in the Upper Peninsula and concerns by hunters, the Michigan Department of Natural Resources’ (DNR) Wildlife Division brought forward six potential regulation options to be considered mid-cycle during the Natural Resources Commission (NRC) meeting that took place on May 7, 2015. These options were discussed, and the NRC narrowed its consideration down to two regulatory options for discussion and potential action at the June 11, 2015 meeting. At the June 11,2015 meeting, the NRC decided to eliminate the antlerless option during archery season for hunters using a deer or deer combination license in the U.P.
I still don't see where the inclusion of crossbows in MI has affected your bow hunting.
For whatever reason, the DNR is protecting does in the UP during archery season, whether you use a longbow, a recurve, a compound or a crossbow.
Seems to me the anti-crossbow people would be applauding the limiting of them in late season.
Lastly, nobody that I know of ever disputed that shooting a deer with a crossbow is easier than shooting one with a compound. So what? Most people think that shooting one with a compound is easier than shooting one with a recurve. And most people think that shooting one with a recurve is easier than shooting one with a selfbow.
KPC
My research tells me that the U.P. Whitetails Association is primarily a gun hunting organization........ When crossbows were being debated to make legal statewide..... They lobbied that crossbows would have too big of effect in the U.P. They further lobbied that if crossbows were to be made legal;; That does should be outlawed across the vast majority of the U.P.
I firmly believe that the U.P. Whitetails Association wanted to outlaw does in the UP to archers regardless of crossbows. But they used the legalization of crossbows as an excuse to get the NRC to further their agenda........
Actually when the smoke clears with my wife's health I am going to call and make that suggestion. Won't go anywhere but I am going to put that idea in some ones mellon.
Happy new year.
KPC
God Bless and Happy New Years everyone (regardless of your weapon of choice :) )
God Bless you and your family
