April 11th NRB Meeting
Wisconsin
Go to the 4:15 time where Kaz begins addressing xbows.
Very interesting to say the least. I am not surprised on the differences in how the information was presented.
Never really agreed with kaz before, but that was some good stuff.
So those hearings really didn't matter? Looks like the xgun season is going to be amended anyway.
The first few years were just to collect data right? Well now its time to set the season length. Its neither being shortened nor lengthened...just finally being set based on the collected data over the last 4 years.
Kaz did say to have parity in the success rates the season would have to change?
Should we then look at success rates of compound vs. traditional equipment and adjust the season there also? I mean if it is really to bring parity to the sport.
We have 40 years of data showing the superiority of the compound. It’s a slippery slope the path you guys are heading down.
It’s also embarrassing seeing you guys that have bashed Kaz and the NRB for years and then now........
Guys.... agreements mean nothing to some people.
Droptine- it could be a slippery slope or not.... how molecular do we want to get in separating weapons? Shotgun v rifle, scopes v open sights, singleshot v bolt v semi auto, fingers v releases, 20% let off v 75% let off, self bow v recurve?
I'm happy with the current separation.
I think it goes back to the old saying... give em an inch and they'll (want to) take a mile.
Drop Tine, your comment has an easy answer. When compounds came on the scene, they were simply included into the archery season. There was no clause added that allowed the state to review their efficiency, and then determine what to do about it. X-guns were different. There "is" clause included that allows the state to review their efficiency. And, that's what they're doing.
Will,
With all due respect what slippery slope? Did you watch the video? Crossbows didn't bring new hunters into the fold. It just moved them with superior weapons into the early season with efficacy rates far above that traditionally achieved by bowhunters. Continuing down this path without change is the slippery slope.
That’s because 95% of the bowhunters embraced the new technology of cables and wheels. Myself included.
Currently WI manages for population with little regard for sex structure. It seems unlikely that opportunity reductions would occur before the populations start taking a hit. And then it probably won't be about weapon type.
Bowhunting was never about population management.
This isn't over. I have always thought Kaz was out for Kaz. I stand corrected and applaud his efforts.
I give Kaz a lot of credit. He is putting the concern of bowhunters above his business concerns.
DT asked, "Should we then look at success rates of compound vs. traditional equipment and adjust the season there also?" Maybe DT should suggest this as a question for next year's hearings? Fact is, right now there is nothing being talked about or considered reagards this. I see this as simple deflection when people have no legitimate basis for their overly emotional feelings.
No one is talking about it because you/compound hunters don’t want it brought up Capt.
It’s a valid question that you are deflecting. Why do we limit just hound and crossbows. Data clearly shows over forty years that the compound bow is a superior weapon.
DT, go ahead and champion that cause.
Thanks for the link Tweed. I thought Kaz did a great job in his presentation. Kudo's to him for that.
Yes, I thought Kaz did a good job on his presentation. I would have to think that he has a wider view of bowhunting and archery in general. I would also have to think that sales of bows/xbows is only part of his business. I would bet that leagues and range time is down since the xbow. Who shows up on Thursday night to shoot them? I hear that he dosen't allow them on the range anymore since a few have handled them unsafely. Like he said, it is just like a loaded gun pointed at you.
As long as the traditional folks don't get any part of their season shortened there is not any reason to split them off from the regular archery season.
The stats already show the fancy new compounds success rate. That is the numbers being used now. That still leaves a wide gap. I would guess that if the compound season was shortened the x bow season would be shortened even more to make it equal again. I would love to see traditional only equipment in the rut.
BUT I have stated 1000 times. Yes the success rate for crossbows is higher. But the overall kill is not. There is no biological or scientific reason to alter the season at this point. It’s all personal opinion based and driven.
DT, not yet but what do you think happens as crossbows become used by more and more people? it is called being proactive. But, I don't think proactive matters to you, your only concern is that your wife gets to use a superior weapon during the archery season. It is not all personal opinion, it is driven by very selfish people like yourself.
So your saying to be proactive we should end all deer hunting because CWD “might wipe out the herd”
Proactive, hahahahaha sportsmen are never proactive unless it benefits a sole user group or person.
Science is not based on what if’s.
DT, I see comprehension is not a strong suit of yours. CWD "might" wipe out the herd but crossbow use and the results of that use have already provided us with hard facts and numbers. Nice try but another miss on your part.
"Proactive, hahahahaha sportsmen are never proactive unless it benefits a sole user group or person." You are a perfect example of this. No comments or opinion from you until the chance for your wife to hunt during a primitive weapons season with a superior weapon was challenged. Then you became vocal. Thanks for the definition and perfect example.
albino x 1. Since trad bows are so inferior to the x-gun and compound it should have it separate season, 2 wks Nov 1 - Nov 14, since it was brought the bow season into existence and the impact on bucks in the rut would be reduced, who can argue against this one. The archery lanes would be full again like back in the old days.
Good video and Kaz is actually alarmed by the data and wants others to understand it. I have thrown him under the bus here many times but seems sincere about wanting to do something about it. I don't know why he brought up his business and that they don't steer his interests. He has 2 dogs in the 3 dog race? ? Anyway we can't have x-bows at almost double the success rate of the archery and gun seasons which - yes means higher kill numbers for them. Deer numbers on the landscape are a variable, success rate is not.
You guys talked me into it. I'm buying a recurve.
I've sat alot of sit's during the rut with a Recurve, then a Compound, and now back to a Recurve and it's all the same, alot of deer, bucks, bucks of a lifetime have walked by just out of bow range no matter the bow I'm holding. If I had a X-gun in my hand during all those hunts, it would have been done in a heart beet every year. It's just like having a rifle in your hand period.
"Live2HUnt said; "It's just like having a rifle in your hand period. "
I don't need to list the many real world differences between the two, but just for giggles to show you how biased you are, here is one to consider. Can one of those "bucks of a lifetime", that is just out of bow range, drop below the bullet from a rifle after reacting to the noise of the shot? Maybe my rifles are different than yours, but I never had a deer "jump the string" after being shot at with a rifle. Actually, it is impossible since the velocity of most rifle chamberings used for deer are faster than the speed of sound. On the other hand, deer can easily move between the time of the shot and the impact of the arrow from even the fastest crossbows. Maybe you might have to re-think your "just like have a rifle in your hand period" position?
Touche Rut. My first post on here back in November was about a missed opportunity at a 150 class buck. No doubt in my mind he'd be at the taxidermist right now if I was using a crossbow.
Shooting arrows at game is never a sure thing. I have missed quite a few when I "had no doubt in my mind" my tag was about to be punched.
It’s funny, there are 250,000 bow hunters give or take in WI. but only 2,660 show up at the CC Hearings to vote yes to adjusting the season.
That must mean 247,340 see no issue with the way seasons are currently. It also shows that it’s a small minority group trying to throw its small collective weight around and restrict opportunities of the majority.
This one was 10 yards. I don't think it would have jumped the string. It was coming in almost straight at me from the front and was going to walk to the right of me. I had to stand to take the shot. I got the draw and after holding for a bit, he looked up at me. I'm almost certain he would have never spotted me if I could have stayed seated and concealed against the tree. I'm 25 ft up in that stand. He started walking nervously and when he got broadside I tried to stop him and he ran about 40 yards behind me. Now... I probably could have killed him with the bow, but I felt the shot was risky so I didn't take it. Absolutely no doubt in my mind I would have killed him with a crossbow. As I stated earlier, he likely would have never spotted me with a crossbow. Standing full draw, 25 ft up in a tree you stick out a bit more. Even if he had, it would have been a chip shot with an xbow.
What opportunity is being stripped? It has been stated numerous times that the crossbow season is just finally being set. If you want to hunt the archery season, buy a damn bow and hunt it.
"It’s funny, there are 250,000 bow hunters give or take in WI. but only 2,660 show up at the CC Hearings to vote yes to adjusting the season. That must mean 247,340 see no issue with the way seasons are currently"
That's just a bunch of bull and you know it. First of all most hunters know these meetings are a crock. Especially after they showed up to repeatedly vote no to allowing crossbows for all. But money got to legislators who then rammed it down our throats. Even before that farce attendance was pathetic. That's the reason they draw up controversial questions. Hoping to draw crowds to prove that these meetings aren't as worthless as they really are.
Rut it’s fact not bull. Look at the numbers!!
The other fact is the overall harvest has not increased. Bow licenses sold has decreased and crossbow licenses have increased. Hunters are still harvesting the same amount of deer overall just using a different tool.
Jeffd, I do hunt with a virtical bow and probably hunted more days than 75% regulars that post here. I have tons of pictures and hours of video for the stands last fall. I just don’t boast about it because I don’t hunt for others approval or to be placed on a pedestal and say look at me.
I haven't observed actual bowhunters doing any infighting. I have seen crossbow hunters causing a ruckus.
That statement was meant for crossbow hunters in general.
Rut, the rocks in your backyard will comprehend better than the greedy crossbow users will.
I would guess a couple hundred thousand fishermen were happy with all the issues also. Not many of them showed up. Same with the Millions of public land users. I guess they will not mind paying a fee to use it as only a few showed up. In fact not many outdoors people showed up at all. I don't know why they even have the meetings. I guess so just a few can disrupt the whole state.
I don’t think there is another state in the union that seeks public input when setting seasons and quotas.
They take what’s offered and you deal with it. It’s a shame more do not get involved and take advantage of it.
"Rut : I haven't observed actual bowhunters doing any infighting. I have seen crossbow hunters causing a ruckus.
"Rut" You need to take a serious look into "Who" started this recent controversy.
Drop Tine....CC it use to be very important. Not no more. They have to submit controversial questions to justify their existence. I know a few on the CC who truly represent the sportsmen and women of Wisconsin and a few who have agendas. They would be better off having a questioner when you buy a license. They have turned into a waste of time.
Isn't there some hypocrisy in Kaz's actions when you consider that he 1st voted against xbows and then 3 months later accepted financial gains like all the other voters and voted in favor of them?
http://www.outdoornews.com/2013/09/05/crossbow-deer-hunting-could-begin-next-year/
"According to the Senate committee clerk’s report, nobody registered in opposition to AB 194. Those who testified in support of AB 194 were Czaja, Danou, Schimelpfenig, Moulton, Lobner, Dymale, Fritsch, Brent Gardner of the National Rifle Association, Sen. Paul Farrow, R-33rd Senate District, Mike Pjevach of SCI and Southeast Wisconsin Bowhunters, Chris Caliendo of SCI, Steven Cripps of SCI Badgerland, Kathy Pantzlaff of United Sportsmen of Wisconsin, Jeff Nass of Wisconsin FORCE, and Jeff Perlewitz of Southeast Wisconsin Bowhunters.
Those who registered in favor of the bill but did not testify were Scott Meyer of United Sportsmen of Wisconsin, Natural Resources Board member Greg Kazmierski, Tom Corcoran, and Craig Enders."
He has made oodles of cash off xbows and even calls his place the Midwest's Crossbow Authority. It seems a tad hypocritical that he accepted payment to cave, like Captain Mike and others also did, and has made tons of money off xbows, and now wants to be perceived as this leader of the people fighting against what he initially approved.
And this is where the name calling really gets good.
They voted as did WBH to have a 2 year trial season to be set after that when more info was available. It is the xbow people crying & fighting because it is time to make things equal for all. God Bless America. Even the greedy xbow shooters.
albino .... he must be a liberal... worrying about anyone making money.
"Crossbows didn't bring new hunters into the fold. It just moved them with superior weapons into the early season with efficacy rates far above that traditionally achieved by bowhunters. Continuing down this path without change is the slippery slope. .."
The air bow, air gun will do the same thing. They want it included in the archery season as well. No new hunters just shifting them to the different method of take. So to those of you thinking "method" doesn't matter, OK let's open all season for any method (now available to be developed). Let's do the same for fishing cause I claim I can't hold a rod and reel very well, nor am I successful with it, I NEED a set-line , bait and hook of my choice, net, spear, trap, poison or electroshocking device. It will retain and recruit all kids of fisherman. "So what if I don't exceed the carrying capacity on method of take, why does it matter..." same idealology, YES method does matter to bowhunters. Hand held, hand drawn, hand released device that does include a certain amount of error(self-bow, longbow, recurve, compound all do this), not gun like pull trigger once and done. That is not bowhunting, so let's call modern crossbows, airguns shooting arrows what they are, advanced weapons similar to firearm, pull the trigger, one and done.
I'm advocating claymores for deer so I suppose I could support dynamite for fish.
Happy, it is a shame that you view the world and judge others through your greedy eyes. To set the record straight, Kaz originally fought against any crossbow season. Now that does not probably make sense through your greedy perspective but yes, he fought to not allow them at all. The vote you reference came after the NRA inserted themselves and influenced legislators with their money. That position was taken only after we knew there would be some sort of Xbow season. It was the only way we had to keep xbows from being fully included in the archery season. Even though I know you will not be able to understand, there are some people who put their convictions ahead of their monetary gain.
Tweed... good idea ..... theres a question to draw hunters and fishermen to the CC meetings.
Captain, you have never told us why you, Kaz and all others accepted compensation to change your votes after 3 months. Why would not even 1 single person hold to their convictions that xbows did not deserve to have the same dates and rules as real bows? You all sold your souls for the financial gains plain and simple. There is a lot of hypocrisy in all this now. Kaz is not a hero. He is a hypocrite. He sold out just like you did to all those people from SCI and the Southeast bowhunters you were representing. The money won in your case. You can't unring that bell.
Happy has a point. Kaz was instrumental in bringing the NRA into the WI game management discussion. The groups Kaz was associated with jumped with the NRA. How did that turn out for us. Kaz was all for a lessor weapon law like CO. That was a foot in the door for crossbows. Did he stick with a lessor weapon concept, do not think so. Was there a 2 year trial season or just a different license so the results could be compared? And with the ability to buy both licenses those kill numbers could be tainted. If you were not pushing back hard against crossbows in the beginning, it is hard to be taken seriously after the battle is lost. It would be interesting to hear from Kaz how valuable the crossbow bill was to his net worth. Token resistence. Way too little. Way too late. Maybe I am wrong but he could not have played this any better as some here think he is our savior. If he has any credibility he will ask for a choice, either a crossbow license or a gun license, not both. Then great, go ahead and continue selling crossbows. How much worse could this be for bow hunters? How is your local club doing?
Glunker and Happy are completely ignorant on this issue. I was there with Kaz and Geitz and witnessed it firsthand. They both prove their ignorance with each word they spew.
Then enlighten us with your first hand knowledge.
Happy, I defy you to prove any money or other compensation was received by myself or Kaz. You are a liberal blowhard who spews with no knowledge or facts. Very pathetic but not unexpected based on your previous posts. You just might be proof that ignorance is bliss.
So you are saying Kaz got steamrolled trying to stop the NRA and crossbows after he brought the NRA into the WI game management lobbying. I hope he wasn't too hurt.
Glunker, Kaz has shown you your backside over so many issues that your butthurt runs deep.
So capt, you are saying you have no credible comeback? I understand.
No Toddy, I am saying that you are so far off in left field that you deserve nothing better. I know as well as you do, you and Kaz have had many differences over the years. He routinely comes out on top because he addresses the issues with facts and logic. You jumped on Happy's skirt tail because you never have been able to outwit, outsmart or out-logic Kaz in any of the issues you have clashed over. The closest you will ever get to being in the major leagues is when you purchase a bleacher ticket.
No Captain, I am not a liberal. I am all righty. But, that has nothing to do with the fact you were representing groups of people (SCI and SE Bowhunters) and then caved for cash switching your votes. You never answer any questions specifically, only brushing them aside while you call people names. Calling me a liberal is just you deflecting the topic. You fail in your methodology every time and simply make yourself look more low-class and childish, but that is your M.O.
Did these groups of people know you were caving for financial gains?
It is interesting that people blame those who shoot xbows but don't blame those who enabled the exact same xbow season to exist versus sticking to their convictions. Those same people all changed their no votes to yes votes and did it via accepting payment in return. Captain Mike had already told us it was all about money. Weird that not even 1 single person would have felt strongly about their convictions.
I just love seeing how the Captain gets his panties into such a wad when people opine differently and then needs to spew venom and name calling on them. You represent the word ignorant Captain. I still can't believe you sold out and stabbed all those people you represented in the back.
I don't know about the "cave for cash" and hope that not to be true but then again welcome to the ways of today if true. I have said it before but I would rather get a beat down butt kicking standing up for and fighting for something I believed in instead of comprises.
Pasq, I will guarantee you and all else there is not one shred of truth to this crap Happy is spewing. If he said it to my face we might very well end up in a fistfight over it. He has no basis for it and has not even attempted to show any basis for the puke that emanates from him. As you noted on another thread and I responded to, Happy attempts to portray himself as taking the high road when the fact is he dives as deep into the dumpster as anyone else. Happy, show us any bit of proof that Kaz or myself received any type of compensation from anyone as you are claiming. You cannot do that and you know it.
"I have said it before but I would rather get a beat down butt kicking standing up for and fighting for something I believed in instead of comprises." I would largely agree with that. But, a war can be won while still losing a battle or two.
If he said it to my face we might very well end up in a fist fight over it.
Wow, the internet bully and keyboard coward is now threatening me on the public internet because he was exposed as a fraud. Now I have seen it all.
Capt, did all those you were representing know you were accepting payments to change your vote or did you surprise them? The NRA and Crossbow Federation provided you with a wonderful dinner and drinks. You all voted and then were handed an envelope on the way out while you left your soul at the door. You even admitted it was all about money.
Pasq, you are correct. A large group of people don't all change their minds from being anti-xbow to being pro-xbow in 3 months voting them in to run concurrent with the archery season. The only way that happens is when money wins. When the Captain was exposed on this before, he ran with his tail between his legs and refused to answer questions from anyone. It was time to revisit this history when people were lauding Kaz as a hero when his actions are actually hypocrisy.
"Capt, did all those you were representing know you were accepting payments to change your vote or did you surprise them? The NRA and Crossbow Federation provided you with a wonderful dinner and drinks. You all voted and then were handed an envelope on the way out while you left your soul at the door. You even admitted it was all about money."
Crappy, the only drinks or dinner I ever had while in or around Madison for this issue were paid for by myself. Not sure where you come up with this but I am sure you hide behind your keyboard. Have you taken up drinking? Suffering from personal issues? Were you interested in providing any sort of proof for your baseless contentions? I know you cannot because there is none. You might be best to sticking to admonishing your son for a wounding shot and cutting his season short because of it because dealing with adults and facts seems to be foreign to you. Odd critter you are. But, feel free to chase after me with my tail between my legs, if you have the guts.
I know one thing. I'm done with this game with you guys. Not only have I got the board involved already, I will be creating multiple seperate handles/names to say why compound bow season and crossbow season should both not be able to hunt the rut. Forget the success rate garbage. Compound took 20,000 bucks and so did crossbow.
Book it. You greedy compound hunters want the woods to yourself during the rut, let's see if we can get you adjusted as well. You know, for the health of the heard right?
=) I will also be spreading this message to my countless crossbow hunting friends who hunt rifles as well. Same men I had turn out in droves for voting in spring.
Just a fair warning. Enjoy boys and girls. As the board member Mr Kazmerski stated, data does not lie. Especially when the kills are about the same for both bows. =) Poor poor rifle guys.
Ron, Your time would be better spent learning how to spell.
Trapper, Ron knows how spell. This a crossbow troll, you can tell by their inability to spell. (;
Ahh, did I not spell check before I typed that? Damn, I didn't know I needed to grace a bunch of losers hanging out on a bow hunting forum all day needed perfect grammar. Hahahaha
Bump...
Anyone have a clue if there will be changes in the near future?
