Application explosion
Colorado
Interesting article from Eastman's.
Yup. It will get worse! Wait till you see the explosions on the other species that don’t live in the steep country...
Really, it just puts us in line with most of the other western states on draw odds. Guess a great thing cannot last too long.
Does this equate to an explosion of otc hunters as well? With less guys drawing the tags they thought they "normally" would get, are more guys going to end up otc to fill the freezer ?
Ckapp, I think the CPW is banking on that, NR and Residents getting OTC tags in lieu of drawing a tag.. But in reading this article, what nobody knows and wont know until stats are posted is the distribution of applicants across different seasons. I am inclined to believe that we will for sure in an increase in archery applications, but more inclined to believe the biggest increase will come from rifle applications, especially the units that previously required only 0-2 points to draw. So for instance, previously you may have been able to draw a 4th season rifle tag with 0 or 1 point and now take more points to draw and the odds to draw drop dramatically. So until this new system either changes or levels out, gone are the days of guys hunting the same unit every other year. It could be my archery bias for my theory, but we will see where it all shakes out
I'm awaiting the stats on the elk and deer tags before I form too much of an opinion. I think the sheep and goat apps may be on the high end of the spectrum because the price of entry used to be steep. The OTC system and the cost of a tag for resident elk and deer are affordable so there may not be as steep of an application increase. I can see the non-resident applications going up because of the same price of entry difference.
Yeah- most of the general hunters did not really focus on Sheep, Goat or Moose due to the cost- even as a resident that is an additional $750 per person. Heck, I've taken all 3 and had quit but now put in again as well.
I live in Colo but also hunt WY. They're considering making the same changes to the draw that CO did. I was sent a survey by WY G&F asking my thoughts on whether they should do it, I said "hell no"!
"Roll with the changes"... :)
as we move to the future it will never get easier anywhere only harder and harder. better get your points burned while you can.
I don’t think it will impact deer and elk because the tag was already cheap. I don’t think a lot of people aren’t in a financial position to have the Dow hold their 47 dollars for 8 weeks. Out of state...good luck!!!!
I'm having a hard time getting too bent out of shape about this right now.
The deer and elk assumptions appear to be just conjecture at this point.
I do love the Eastman's work though in general, and they seem like a terrific group of guys.
This is the dumbest thing the CPW has done since point banking was allowed for 1 year. Hopefully they "can it" just like they did with point banking! I don't know any res or nonres that hasn't complained about point creep and how tags are getting tougher and tougher to draw the past 5 years and this has only made things totally worse! I hope the CPW gets their head out of the sand and hexes this stupid idea! I can guarantee the same thing will happen with deer, elk, and antelope....especially for nonres! As Eastman's stated in their article, hopefully the CPW owe up that they have made a HUGE mistake and will reverse what they have done. It's a sad day for those that enjoy hunting Colo on a fairly regular basis! Hopefully Wyo learns from Colos HORRIBLE mistake!
There was also a lot of whining about CPW holding "my money" for a few months with the old system. This move was a huge money saver for CPW, and at the end of the day, it is all about $$$$$.
Jim, from the CPW’s perspective more applicants in the system is a resounding success!
It is meeting their stated goal of getting more people involved in hunting and fishing (read - more paying customers) to bring in more revenue and it significantly reduces the cost of holding and returning money in the draw.
Why would they want to change the system? Other than to increase application fees to get even more out of the resources.
I would not be surprised to see CPW making more revenue on the application process (application fees, institute point fees, etc) than license sales at some point.
Added to the additional increases on all resident licenses (that hit hunters the hardest and was supported by all of our sportsman’s organizations) the best funded State G&F agency will be making even more.
Pretty sure they will continue to spend more than the make - with a lot of that expenditure going toward programs that have nothing to do with the funding sources. Heck, this last bill just rewarded their mismanagement.
It will be interesting to see if all our sportsman’s organizations will do anything to apply pressure on the beaurocracy to make it better for the hunters and fishermen.
This wasn't a surprise to the CPW. The huge decrease in applicant odds was the obvious result. I complain about some CPW decisions but they would have to be absurdly incompetent if they didn't understand what the obvious results would be. Hoping that they were blind sided by this and planning on reversing it will lead to disappointment. The huge increase in applicants either fits their agenda or is acceptable within their plan.
It's a bunch of hogwash if you ask me! The CPW has totally screwed up and they need to fix it....end of story!
I don't like the results either but it wasn't an accident. I think it was the wrong move but it was intentional. I don't expect a fix any time soon since CPW doesn't see it as a mistake.
It’s all about balance. Find that PP fee that gives the desired amount of applicants while still generating the desired revenue. Is it 3 dollars a point? Hell no! Is it 50? 100? It wouldn’t be that hard to figure out.
$10 app fee is the legislative limit for residents. I don't think they can charge for points, at least I can't find it in the attached Act, the word preference occurs once. Since they just passed a bill, legislative changes are unlikely unless sportsman find a sponsor and run/pass their own bill. It took 3 years for CPW to pass this one. They could abandon pay later, if sportsman convince the commission to go back to spending 3 million on refunds and merchant fees.
Why 3 dollars? Is 6 so expensive nobody would apply? They could double their money. How about 20. Even if 6 out of 7 stopped applying theyd still make about the same money and I don’t think 6 people are going to decide 20 bucks is too much.
This would be for non residents of course assuming 10 is the max.
Apps will be $10 for res and $20 for NRs in the blink of an eye. Get ready for it.
It is more money in the bank for CPW, so why in the heck would they back away from that? They tried twice to raise resident fees and have failed so far, so I see this as a new tactic to make money.
Do I like it? NO! But you have as much chance to get this reversed as I have to get them to stop raising NRs fees
Looking at the draw stats for bighorn, desert bighorn and goat there were 47,179 new applicants (R & NR) in 2018 vs 2017.
At the current $3 application fee that equates to $141,537 additional just for those species without accounting for tag fees.
At $10 per application it will be $471,790 - a difference of $330,253.
You can rest assured that the vast majority of CPW employees are upset at the loss of that $330,253 in free money this year! The application fees will certainly take a big jump to the maximum they can charge.
Y’all are gonna be shocked when the rest of the stats come out! Bet that there will be similar (or greater) increases in applicant numbers for the rest of the species. The increases for Moose applications will probably make a lot of us guys on maximum or close to max points totally ill.
I want to see how much this one little change impacts CPW’s revenue for the year.
You can also bet your bottom dollar that they will immediately jump all license fees to the max for next year.
Actually, I was told by the chairman the PWC did not recently raise NR fees by the CPI when they could have, so you never know. Like eastmans said, write the commission with your opinion.
I have and will continue to. Massively frustrating.
Pref pts have just been diminished....really don't mean a whole lot. What it will hurt the most is deer, elk, and antelope tags that used to be drawn every year or 2! Everyone that hunts limited big game in Colo be prepared to wait more years to hunt unless this nonsense is changed! Right now would be the time to raise cain with the dink-heads that promoted this! The quicker this is eliminated the better!
Doubt it is going to be changed back, thousands of people apparently liked the change.
Colo is the prostitute of the west for big game hunting and now applicants! If hunters don't draw big game tags elsewhere they join the mob of OTC elk hunters. Nothing to loose applying for big game in Colo when it only costs a matter of a few bucks to apply.....join the party!
jims, you seem pretty bitter, grab a cold one...
Now, as someone who was only putting in for 1 of the 3, I can now afford to apply for all 3. Maybe an opportunity that I, and others, may not have had. Does it lessen everyone's odds the way CPW rolled this out, well yeah that's not rocket science. Could they tweak it a little, of course they could as no system is perfect.
As a resident, the system should not be prohibitive. That comes with a price. There was no guarantee that anyone would draw a tag, just the opportunity.
I for one am happy to have the opportunity, whether I ever draw or not isn't the end of the world as we know it.
With all due respect, you have the "opportunity" to apply in any state. Drawing the tags you want in a reasonable amount of time is everything. I say that while always being full of gratitude for everything I have. I also say that because I expect a similar application explosion for every species of big game we have in this state, and that OTC elk hunts are something I gave up on a longtime ago, not wishing to go back that.
All I can say is, I'm glad I'm getting older. If I were just starting out, I would lose interest in "trying" to hunt every year and watching everything turn into a ridiculously difficult and expensive pain in the neck. It absolutely amazes me that the CPW can't understand why hunter recruitment is tanking, while making the whole process insanely complicated.
Hunter recruitment tanking? They just recruited thousands into the “draw game”.
It's funny, "we" as hunters complain about declining numbers, but when a change is made that may increase those numbers, "we" complain again.
Lose/lose situation.
Declining numbers don't bother me one bit.
"I for one am happy to have the opportunity, whether I ever draw or not isn't the end of the world as we know it."
It sort of is for me as far as sheep goes. I have 14 weights and I'm going to be 72 years old this season. I have two more years to draw before being run over from behind by the creepers.
"...OTC elk hunts are something I gave up on a longtime ago, not wishing to go back that."
Going back won't be easy. The increase in applicants is going to force more and more of us out of the draw units and into the OTC units. The pressure will grow and grow! And, what will be the eventual solution? Fewer OTC units until ALL units are draw!
"It's funny, "we" as hunters complain about declining numbers, but when a change is made that may increase those numbers, "we" complain again."
All this pressure is happening and going to get worse ALL THE WHILE THAT HUNTER NUMBERS DECLINE! This situation is not recruiting hunters, it's only recruiting applicants.
I don't see how everybody thinks that this new procedure is going to change resident draw odds for the cheap animals, elk, deer, antelope. It's a big deal for the non residents , but then again I foresee a bunch of people not having the money when the draw is done and some will make out on the leftover because of that! I fully believe it will make a big difference on the expensive tags!
Old goat agreed. If you can’t afford for the dow to hold 40 dollars for 3 months you’re probably not hunting.
I hope you're right, goat. I
It's more than 40 dollars. You need, it's $87 for a deer and an elk tag. If your wife and kid who like to hunt, it's x3. If you have a few kids, it's more. I bet there is a huge increase in deer and elk for residents, a bet I hope to loose.
Probably not as big of an impact on resident lower price tags, but when you reduce the price of something in demand by 90% you can expect to sell more. I know the money was only held for a while, but for folks on a tight budget it mattered. I think it will have an impact, I don't know what to guess.
Im not seeing where the increase in OTC will be? You dont need PPs to hunt OTC.
All the people that applied are probably already hunting OTC and draw areas
My guess on OTC participation increases.... it is happening naturally in archery seasons at a clip of 20% over the last 5 years, so 4% a year.
Also, when todays zero point limited draw elk units start taking 1, 2 or more points, OTC participation will increase....so either this year or next? Maybe we jump in archery from 4% per year to 6, 8 or 10%? Another 5,000 archers per year in OTC, and then compound that over 10 years? Ouch!
Im wondering what will happen if the CPW goes thru with adding 'BULL ONLY' in some OTC areas
Good question, would you move from the spot you hunt if it became bull only?
If your willing to take a cow, and the bull to cow ratio is 20/100 the numbers would suggest (calling aside) that 83% of the elk you see afield will be cows, and success rates will be much lower in bull only GMU's.
Would I move from my spot? No.
But I probably would change my method of take
Here's another twist to application and pref pt fees. What do you guys think? http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2018/June/Item_10-Director%27s_Comments-June2018-PWCMtg.pdf
Looks like 100 per species per point that might slow the big three back down a little
Thanks for pointing that out Jim. The CBA board met last night and discussed the massive increase in applicants, and we will contact other conservation orgs to try discuss options.
On the proposed increase, I have asked CPW to clarify. If you read page 2 of the big game brochure, on PP fees, this $100 fee proposal may only apply if you do not buy an annual license, like a fishing license. If that is the case, I doubt many would be required to pay it. We will know more soon.
I couldn’t get the link to work, Jim. What was the reference?
http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2018/June/Item_10-Director%27s_Comments-June2018-PWCMtg.pdf
Just copy and paste, can't just click on it.
As long as the keep the rule that you don't pay for preference points if you have a license from the previous year, those of us that hunt every year will be fine. They better not change that one!
I was able to find the director’s letter by going through the Wildlife Commission site.
It is very interesting to see the difference of perspective. He is very focused on increasing revenue as much as possible.
Particularly interesting, given that Colorado has been and will now definitely continue to be the highest grossing state for hunting license revenue. They obviously want more and are focusing their efforts on raising fees on hunters to grow the bureaucracy.
Definitely no mention of any improvements to efficiency of operating CPW nor improving services nor quality for their customers.
Looks like they are going to aggressively increase all our resident license fees next year (hitting hunters the hardest - to pay for fish hatcheries and dams - with no concern to improve the overcrowding or quality of hunting in the state), are considering raising application/processing fees to the maximum of $10 resident/$20 NR (even though the new application system saves them several million dollars a year versus the previous system) and possibly implementing preference point fees up to $100 per species (see the Wyoming model).
Expect to pay a lot more to hunt in Colorado! Yay.
Pretty sure they can only raise licenses up to the CPI rate, which usually isn't that much percentage wise, so not overly aggressive. However, as NRs have found out, yearly raises add up over time.
The new bill allows them to raise all license fees and application fees immediately - which equates to 2019. That will happen.
Then, they can raise fees in 2020 and future years based on CPI.
They can also charge up to$100 for points. Expect that to happen next year for moose sheep and goat.
Kind of upsetting as a resident to see CPW continue to allow unlimited bull elk hunting and all the associated overcrowding and reduced hunting quality while getting charged more for it.
Please read the first paragraph of the first page..............
And the start of the second: "While it is time to celebrate, there is much to be done......"
Pretty ominous from our point of view. Of course, if you trust government to do the right thing when it comes to money, we have nothing to worry about
There's a wise old saying - "You can only spend someone Else's money until it's gone..." Government has found a way around that - just raise the debt ceiling and spend the money they haven't got yet.
even bear apps exploded. Went from 17,000 1st choice apps to 32,000. Cripes.
"Declining numbers don't bother me one bit."
They will when the hunter influence means nothing. Ask CA residents.
I know a lot of CA hunters, everyone knows CA has been a lost cause.... even if 80% of Nor Cal is composed of hunters the off setting SoCal will still out vote them.
