Contributors to this thread:
Anyone get the dnr survey in the mail this week ?
Not me either - I copied someone’s post that had a picture of the survey and I will be filling it out and sending in as well. Instead of sending out to a few thousand why not put the survey online? Would have thought it would have been less costly - no mailing fee and would it have not been easier to tabulate the data instead of having someone have to read and enter the results now? These are the kind of the things that irk me.
I didnt get a survey either I was just curious to see how many on here received one . I greed JayD It would have been much easier to put it online. , I would think you would get better results as to opinions of hunters that way , Always seems wv never does things the easy way. lol
Edit: deleted. Thought I was posting on the "Anyone seeing any bucks" thread.
Ever think that an on-line survey could be manipulated by the Russians and have fictitious accounts created and used to manipulate wildlife management in WV? It could happen.
Jimmy were those deer eating out of your "bird" feeder? :)
Only the people that got survey will be valid. Copies are not valid. It is controlled by DNR ID#
If they put it online anyone from anywhere could do it and put whatever they wanted in it, no accountability. They send it in the mail so it can be random, not just a bunch of people from one group filling them out, gobbler's right it's by DNR ID number. And the survey papers themselves have a separate ID number on them they check so any duplicates (making a copy of your buddy's) will get all surveys with that ID thrown out, so you'd be screwing up whoever let you copy theirs as well.
No problem - I will still fill it out and send it directly to the director. Online survey would have been best - just have those filling it out put in the DNR id number. Heck I know of no one as it is now that got the survey but those in one certain group.
After listening to this thread I can tell the info obtained from those surveys is not reliable. Not all hunters get them so it can not be accurate. Waste of money IMO. I say give the CO more money and scrap that waste of money.
Jayd, Really? One certain group? Maybe the group is so large that it will have a decent statistical sampling. I didn't receive one not did any administrator.
I do agree that we would have a large pool of info if the survey went out to all license buyers in a year. However, I'm just really glad the survey is being done.
Sunday I was just stating fact the only ones I know to get a survey is from a certain group. I hope others did get it but as of now I know of no one. So please tell me how this statement must Have upset you now?
My neighbor received one , Dont think he is affiliated with any Group, It was my edunderstanding they (dnr) mailed out 6000 survey , i know of no certain group with that many members That could skew the survey I didnt get one and was not upset that i didnt. Iam just happy that Someone within the dnr is willing to send out this survey to get more hunter input.
Hopp - I would not have known there was a survey going on if someone from the group hadn’t told me they got one. Then he said several in the group stated they got one. I asked some other friends who are not associated with the group and no one else has gotten one. Now I don’t think it’s a big conspiracy I think it is just by chance it worked out that way. All I was doing was stating what I have witness so far regarding this but that seems to upset one of your head honchos.
JayD , like i said, i am just glad that someone within dnr is willing to listen to hunters. I am and have always been for 1buck limit. Which i dont think will ever happen in WV. However i did see the dnr has lower bag limit on doe (class n ) to 1 in my home county as well as few others, and in 12 counties hunters are to take a doe before killing a second buck and that carries across different seasons. Happy to see this changes in 2018/2019 REGULATIONS, Sorry that i got off subject of the survey
I would think it would be logical that a group with 18,000 members would receive a few surveys out of 6000 that were sent out.
Oh I don't care if I get one or not.
Gobbler totally agree with you but I would think I would have heard about a few others as well - so hopefully soon others will speak out. And my thoughts on this randomly selected process is it is about as good as the polls before the last presidential election - useless!
Jayd , Why do think it is useless ? It is because you didnt get to give an opinion, I think it is great that dnr is asking hunters opinions. What ever their opinions are. At least they (DNR ) are trying something Maybe just maybe we will start to see some more changes
I didn’t get one and don’t know personally anyone that did and I know a lot of hunters from all over the state, but with 6000 going out statewide I don’t feel that is surprising because it’s out of a pool of over a quarter million people.
So I guess we will see whether or not the hunters that got one want a 1 buck limit or not.
I think Radom surveys or polls or whatever you want to call them come up with the wrong outcome of what the majority of the people really want. If you look at the last presidential election and saw what the polls predicted to happen and it did not. I think Radom pickings can come to the wrong conclusion quite often. Personally I think an online survey and people using their iD number would have been better. I am so glad you are happy with it Hopps.
Gobbler I think you are right again 6000 out of 250000 to 300000 are getting a chance to have their opinions heard - sorry I just don’t like those numbers. So don’t you think it is only right that if some of us who didn’t get the chance to give our opinion that we can send emails or letters, or make phone calls to our director, commissioners and the DNR to voice our opinions as well?
I agree JayD. Sample is too small. Results mean nothing.
A poll is used to ask one question,While a survey asks mutliple questions on a subject. Big difference ,
No, I think only the people that were randomly surveyed should return the survey, copies, or surveys that don’t match up with code numbers won’t be valid anyway. As far as calling or e-mailing people, it’s America, everyone is free to do that anytime they please. People can even call Trump or Hillary if someone wishes to.
Well a sample of 6000 out of 25,000 to 30,000 doest mean much
I hope that they get a good response from the 6000 and not many of them were thrown in the trash or let lying on a stack of other discarded mail somewhere. I hope I am wrong but it will surprise me if 25% of them will be returned. So you never know jr it may only be about 1500 out 250,000-300000 will reply.
Which is still more than the dnr gets to attend sectional meetings and return responses.
It’s amazing how you guys talk about the great numbers of your group and how you want to increase it (which is more than right for you to do) but when it comes to this survey it’s seems your in favor of fewer being better - just seems funny to me.
It doesnt matter anyway. The DNR does what they want. Won't be long til we have an airbow season
JayD, if a small # of people respond and it shows that people want to stay at 3 bucks will you be satisfied with that result or reject it and say it’s not reliable?
Jays, you are consumed with "that group." Just seems funny to me.
What is the group? I missed that.
JR everyone scratches their heads trying to figure out what Sunday says anymore..... JR because I said the only people I know who got a survey except for one other person belong to a certain group ( I didn’t specify or call the group out by name ) well gobbler and Sunday are a big part of the BBM group (Better Buck Management group) - he has taken offense For some reason for me saying that some of the members of a certain group got a survey. The only reason I knew it - was because a friend who is a member of the group told me that he and several others members of the group got the survey - I didn’t say oh it is terrible that members got the survey - just stated the only reason I even knew about the survey at all was because those people got the survey and then posted on FB about it. So me just stating that has offended Sunday. So then they like to broadcast out that they have over 18,000 members and if that is the number of members they have then hey good for them . I just think it is funny they talk about the number of members they have but from all their statements on this post they seem quite content to let such a small number of hunters to possibly have some influence.
Gobbler yes I will question results no matter what because I think it will be nothing but luck with having such a small percentage of randomly(I don’t think there was any reasoning or science behind how those who got a survey was selected was there?) selected people out of a group of 250,000 to 300,000 to come to a conclusion of what a majority would like. Funny thing is just because a majority wants something doesn’t mean it is right either if it continues to take away privileges or rights of others.
So gobbler the question right back at ya - if a small number of hunters reply back and don’t support to lower the limit or even suggest to raise the limit will you support it?
And don't worry. That buck limit isn't coming down.
Yes . Babysaph You sure all right about that , survey or no survey I dont think the 3 Buck Limit is changing anytime soon , so JayD your safe to kill 3 bucks
You see JR this group always has to try to get a dig in at you or the last word. And we wonder why this forum has become almost dead.....
All I ever said is that I do not like a Radom survey of a very minimal number of hunters being done when it could be done online with steps put in place to make sure someone can only vote once. Then many could take the survey if they wanted. I would think any group would favor that approach as they could rally the troops to go and take the survey then but guess I am wrong...
I will get this forum going again JayD. You just wait and see. LOL. It has been boring lately. Here are two things you can count on. A 3 buck limit and an airgun season in the near future.
And I do agree. The survey should be statewide. Would be easier and cheaper to do online. but we are last in everything.
You know JR we just live in a society that needs to have improved technology to make everything easier. I miss the days when I could hunt with my recurve the month of December and not see hardly anyone in the woods and gun season was pretty much over after doe season which happen the week right after the rifle buck season. Those days are gone though - hard to believe with all the seasons now the number of hunters across the nation is dwindling.
I agree buddy. Now will we have to put up with the airbow season. LOL. Wonder how much of the bow season that will step on?
Heck I know of no one as it is now that got the survey but those in one certain group.
You see JR this group always has to try to get a dig in at you or the last word. And we wonder why this forum has become almost dead..... All I ever said is that I do not like a Radom survey of a very minimal number of hunters being done when it could be done online with steps put in place to make sure someone can only vote once. Then many could take the survey if they wanted. I would think any group would favor that approach as they could rally the troops to go and take the survey then but guess I am wrong...
You are able to not talk in code. When you say "that group" you can go ahead and say Better Buck Management.
No it’s ok i didn’t say what I did to bring out any thing about the group just that the only ones I had heard to get a survey were members of a certain group. I didn’t think the word “certain” would be such an issue for some.
Well if most of the surveys were sent to members of BBM looks like a one buck limit will be on the way.
Babysaph , were is this airbow stuff coming from, do you have some inside information . As far as i know there hasnt been any talk of airbows in wv. Not even for the handicapped like Virginia.
If people take the time to read statistics and survey techniques they would realize that a lot of info can be obtained from them. Several companies have them down to a fine art and are usually pretty reliable . Are they 100%? No, nothing in life rarely is . But, I can assure you that 6000 wasn’t just a number pulled out of thin air . The question is was there a fair and non biased representation of all hunting groups and ages ? But idk the answer to that yet. Once I know all the details then I’ll make a decision if I feel it’s a valid survey one way or the other
No airbow in VA. It was contemplated. But, it was beaten down. Unless something has changed since the first of the year. According to google, it hasn’t.
What is the point of the survey? Hunters didn't want to do away with the hunt in Logan county but they did away with it. My point is the DNR and Gubner do what they want. I would be interested to know what kind of questions they ask
JR I have some pics of the survey - I will send it to you in a PM - don’t want people copying it and sending it in. LOL
Gobbler - my questioning of this - is the survey says that individuals were randomly selected. So that sort of concerns me - did they just pick every 42nd person? Did they pick the same number of people from each county? Did they make the selections according to the percentage of which weapon is used by hunters?
To me it looks like after reading the cover letter from the survey that people were radomly selected which means to me they pretty much just pulled a name out of a hat. Maybe it is just my take on the wording is wrong - I hope so. I have respect for all of the guys at the DNR and think they do a thankless job but I have to admit the way this survey seems to have been done concerns me. All this stuff about saying - well at least it is a start does not jive with me - if you are going to do something like this make it scientific and make sure all resources are being spent wisely. I think sending out 6000 surveys that someone needs to take the time to tally up the results and then report on - well I just think an online survey with an ID system put in place would have been a nice way to go.
I highly doubt that counties such as Calhoun and Pocahontas have as many participants as Kanawha and Monongalia. We also have less Bowhunters than rifle hunters and even less muzzleloader hunters. Throw in grouse hunters, predator hunters and trappers and it gets complicated.
Rumor has it that more surveys are being mailed out - Gobbler you know anything about it?
Yes, another 2500 surveys should be coming out to hunters.
Maybe that was the plan to begin with. Maybe those who got so upset that they never received one , will get one this time
Jayd, Are you sure you don't want to join back on the page? Greg post on the 24th that more surveys are coming out and you post on the 24th asking Greg if he knows anything about a rumor of more surveys coming out. Probably a coincidence.
Remember, its not a one buck page but a better management page.
LOL someone else texted me that they heard more surveys were coming out and I figured Gobbler would be the one to ask if it were true or not. As to the page lol well at this time I would disagree with your discription of it . But thanks for the offer....
why not have a short survey before checking the deer online or over the phone. make it before the actual check in sequence so they have to fill it out or answer the questions before the check info.
Well that would be great but every hunter would not get a survey. Only the ones checking in deer. It is almost impossible to get a survey to all hunters unless they put in online and make a notice in the regs to fill it out if desired. That way no one could complain they didn't get one.
well, I mean 6000 given out compared to 100k deer killed. seems to me you would be targeting a much bigger base. I understand it would take more time to check a deer in and that defeats the purpose of this new auto system, but if the dnr could incorporate the info they need into 3 questions, I think they would get a lot more info than they currently receive. just a thought.
All anyone wants is a fair, nonbiased survey . When that doesn’t occur it’s a disservice to the license buying hunter and the public at large . It really is a shame the way it all went down. Someone(s) should be held accountable for what was done and for the wasted money. Hopefully, the Director caught it in time and had them send out additional surveys.
Additional surveys do not correct the problem.
additional surveys add additional data that drives the change, or potential change
I guess that depends on who they decide to send them out to. If you want things a certain way you need to survey certain people then sale it off as legit.
No, it doesn’t solve the problem. There’s only one way to solve the problem.
I have found you have to take surveys with a grain of salt. Kind of like asking people who they are voting for. Only certain people return them so the results can be skewed. Just like the last election. I have never been asked to fill out a survey. Any survey.
Well, when a survey is only sent out to certain groups of people and not to the entire spectrum of hunters it is flawed before it is mailed out. That is not acceptable.
Totally agreed. And most surveys are only sent out to a certain group of people. Like I said, I have never ever gotten a survey about anything.
Agree to agree, only filled a couple surveys in my life. Some of the catch and release fishing areas used to have surveys at the trail head. Most ask stupid questions mostly about the money I spent. Why not just ask "what would make the fishing better?" and I tell them how other states do it and which ones I think are successful.
Good point Koogie. They don't care about improving things or how other states do it. As you said the questions are just about money. Our state already knows what it is going to do. I used to go to the regional meetings but found in my area they were a waste of time. The officers usually ended up arguing with the good ole boys in the back of the room. I could tell the officers didn't want to be there and I don't blame them. The lawmakers call the shots based on money. Now when is that airbow season coming? LOL.
Now wait a sec - I got called out for using the word “certain” at the start of this thread and now everyone is using it! What’s up with that??? Rofl - just kidding guys - haven’t been online for a bit - been enjoying the beach and golf courses for a bit!
Jay,D because you brought it up probably before most people had even got the first one. I’m bringing it up now because it was found out later that the deck was stacked from the beginning. When the Director found out he made the decision to have the additional 2500 sent out. What he, and I think most hunters are just asking for is a fair non-biased survey. There appears to be one group that wants to stack the deck and have it come out the way they want. And that, is most unfortunate, and should NEVER happen.
Gobbler I was just making a joke about how I got called out about it and that was all.
But even though I like the Director a bunch - I didn’t think this survey was right from the start and putting out an additional 2500 doesn’t help. Just drove the cost up more for a flawed project in my opinion. Glad to see you are on that bandwagon now though thinking it was flawed.
So which group or groups got sent the survey to stack the deck? I have been out of town for a bit and have missed all of this new information. Heck I was on the cutting edge of this! LOL
The Deck was stacked before the survey was even sent out. Leaves very few options of who can stack the deck.
Wow hunting sure is complicated these days.
It was flawed at the beginning by no fault of the Director. But we’ll see what the final result is after the Director corrected it. My beef is that it was sent out flawed from the beginning, without the Directors knowledge. No matter which side you are on that should never happen. My personal opinion is that it was not accidental.
Same as Always, Political BS !
The person or people who screwed up the survey wasted a bunch of money and in the meantime it accomplished nothing. If the results are not good then fraud will assumed why . I hope they are held accountable for this
Ok I am a little confused here - I have read where several people have stated that the deck was stacked by one group but then I see where it’s stated that it is a personal opinion that it was not accidental- so is there some proof that the survey was rigged by one group and that it just wasn’t a very good idea of someone in the DNR ?
Look forward to a FOIA to find out.
What I want to know is how it was known that the deck was stacked initially? How does anyone know what the average hunter that received the initial survey's really thought pre survey? Do hunters that receive the surveys register their feelings on deer management with the DNR prior to receiving the survey's? OR, did a group of deer hunters that is small in numbers complain about few of their members receiving the survey? How was it known the deck was stacked? Frankly, with what I know, It sounds to me like the deck is getting stacked right now. While I don't claim to know it all, I do see the irony here.
That's just me but, coming on here and making those claims while being hush about them is doing no one any good. It also does nothing to prove what is being charged by the better buck management crowd, including you. And, frankly makes it appear very possible that the intent of the second surveys is to stack the deck to get a more favorable representation of the better buck management crowd.
I don't know that. I'm not saying that is the way it is. I'm just saying from the info on this thread, it is a 50% chance that is what is going on.
W.V. Mountaineer, I can’t get into it now and I know we disagree on things at times, and that’s 100% fine, but I’ve always tried to be honest with you and on this one you are completely wrong. I’m sure it will all come out by someone in the future. While I know I am biased, my duties require that I be unbiased in a vote. I spent a career in the Emergency room doing just that. Although I has biases just as any human does, every one was treated the same whether they were a homeless drugged out prostitute or the minister from a local church, both were treated with compassion and the best medical care I could provide for their condition or injury because I took an oath and when I take an oath I take it very seriously. But I would hope that all sides would want a fair nonbiased survey from the beginning. At this point my opinion is that did not occur and that should be a concern for all that will be affected. It should not be about who wins or loses but whether it was a fair survey that included all affected parties.
I wasn't blaming you or suggesting that was truly the way it was Greg. Read the last paragraph in my post for verification on that. However, I was wandering how you come to that conclusion. Also, Opinions are fine as long as they have the info to make them undeniable facts. Then they aren't opinions. They are facts whether they are poplar for being so or, not so poplar. I'm a facts kind of guy.
I agree, fairness is important. So is a realistic representation. Since you won't or can't share why you think it was stacked, it still leaves in question about how this went down. Understand, I do agree and do not think you are not biased or, are not driven to get what you believe is right. But, I'm not saying you did anything wrong here. The point I am making is either it was stacked or it wasn't. I assume since more have been mailed, it was determined that was the case. All I am asking is how was that determined? Every sportsmen in this state deserves that answer. Not just me.
This is an important matter. More so then any argument or disagreement anyone here has had on the subject. This is an abuse of power however it has went down, from people in the position to abuse it. People need to be held accountable. It is very important the we hunters know what is going down by the people in position to influence our game management. And, it is important that the DNR gets accurate info. Not biased opinions.
It is impossible to say this without sounding confrontational. I am not being that way. However, I have zero intentions of standing aside while people play God. I am pretty sure that everyone here feels that way.
The Director requested the survey and it was the Director that made decisions about the survey after it went out and it was at his order that additional surveys went out. Beyond that I can’t get into it now because the survey is ongoing and issues are still being looked at. I suspect more details will come out after survey is complete and issues have been addressed by Director. I can say there was no outside influence from any group of hunters that had anything to do with what was on survey , or who it was or wasn’t sent to. The first time I saw the survey was after someone posted the survey they had received on FB. I will say I’m not happy with the way it all went down and that’s coming from my non-biased portion of the brain. The Director is out of the office with some personal issues for a bit but I trust that when he returns he will get it sorted out.
Refresh my memory. What was the survey about? This is just my opinion but unless everyone gets a survey then it will not be accurate.
I’m Not sure if I remember now either, might be the bluegill limit survey?
Lol. Funny how those things get lost. Maybe it was about the buck limit.
Ok - I am going to ask more questions now: First from the very beginning of this thread several of us were concerned about this survey because of the minimal numbers of the survey sent out (if it would be accurate picture of what WV hunters wanted or not) and that if it was done electronically it should have made it easier to record and analyze the info. Heck I was even ridiculed for saying the only reason I even knew there was a survey was because a friend told me that members of a CERTAIN GROUP posted it on FaceBook. Gobbler - you and Sunday were leading the bandwagon to say how this was a good thing.
Gobbler - I will say its ok that you took the wait and see approach.
But somewhere around August 7th something happened to change your's and Sunday's opinion on this survey. Here are a few statements and words the two of you used: August 7th - should have been a fair and non-bias survey - someone should be held accountable for what was done and for the waste of money
August 8th (you sort of even turn the heat up some) - survey only sent out to a certain groups of people - flawed , not acceptable
August 10th - Deck was stacked from the beginning -appears to be one certain group that wants to stack the deck
August 12th - personal opinion is it was not accidental
now all of us before were answering or telling the reasons for our thoughts. How about you two telling us the big reason for your 180 turn-around on this survey. Sunday you accused me of speaking in code but I think from my answers everyone here knows exactly what I was saying - how about you two let us know the code that you are using to come up with these changed opinions so we know what may be happening????
From the very beginning I have not tried to be a smart-butt about this - truely the only reason I said certain group was to mean that only thru post by members to their FaceBook page is the only reason I knew there was a survey. In know way was it to say something fishy was going on and even stated that. Now you two have implied something fishy happened - so spill the beans on this and let us know what you know.
I agree. It was the best thing since sliced bread. Now it’s not. The rest of us are just hanging here on the unknown.
I understand some of us have connections the rest of us don’t. But, we all deserve to know why such a great thing is deemed such a horrible thing now. Like I said, to ensure we aren’t justifying a personal agenda versus truly doing the right thing.
That’s my thoughts. I won’t apologize for them. And, no one here is above that critically after the way this happened. No one. Including the director.
This smells like something. Which way it favors doesn’t get to be decided by a few that want to change things. At least not if reality is a big priority. That goes for either side of this buck management debacle. Yes, it has turned into that.
The Mountaineer QDMA slogan "Patience Pays" certainly applies to this subject.
As I said before, I think I know all the details and what I know I don’t like but before I say what it is I want to confirm it. I haven’t been able to because the Director had to take personal time and I’m going to respect that. If that doesn’t fit someone’s timetable and demands I’m sorry
Had that been described in any of your previous Posts, none of the others would have followed.
The Director must go. LOL, Or at least be suspended for a while. Heck they even do that at Ohio state.
Mountaineer, it’s a fluid situation.Some Information came out literally 4 days before the Director had to take personal time off. If that hadn’t of happened I’m sure all would have been known by now. It’s like if I called you one day and said I’m going to call you tomorrow and tell you something and then that nite my cell phone dies and I can’t call you. It’s not my fault. It’s just an uncontrollable event.
JR, I think the Director is a fair man. He doesn’t have do this but I think he’s trying to do his best to improve the DNR and make changes to help ensure the future financial viability of the DNR and make it more attractive for sportsmen and make the State Parks more attractive for tourism. He is constantly on the move to promote the DNR.
I understand now and do not mean to sound as if I don't believe every thing you are saying. Nor am I trying to come off in an ungrateful way. I apologize if that is the way it seems. I don't think you are responsible for any of this. I only know you are the guy that can give us the answers on it. So, I'm not trying to hound you to death or bust your butt over it. But, if this has indeed happened, regardless of the side it favors, heads need to roll.
I'm a data freak concerning our deer herd. And, I base everything about my stance on that data. If someone is deliberately misrepresenting that data, then not only does that make our data flawed, it fouls up real life management objectives and information. That's why I'm taking this so seriously.
No problem, I understand and agree. I take it serious also . I don’t think it’s a surprise to anyone that my personal bias is for a lower buck limit, but my professional view is that , whatever the outcome is, I want to see fair nonbiased data and data gathering and that would include hunter surveys. I’m 100% confident that the Director feels the same way .
Gobbler - I will agree with you I think the director is a good guy and is trying to do what is best for the DNR.
I guess where some of us are confused by what has happened - it seems like you and Sunday started posting about the deck being stacked at the same time - I guess as Sunday said in a previous post it was coincidence that you both did - so Sunday how did you find out about what happened ? Maybe you can give us a little more detail?
JayD, if you go back and look at dates it corresponds pretty closely with the last Commission meeting
I went back and read this whole thread. Every single post. I'll say this. It is going to be interesting to hear how this went from a good to a bad deal. It is going to be interesting to hear how the director found out about the supposed bias and why he felt mailing more surveys randomly would fix that bias. It is going to be interesting to hear how the key players of this found out about the bias. And, it is going to be interesting to hear why there was a suspected bias to start off with, what was done to offset it, and how that affects reliability of information.
I was just kidding anyway gobbler. I don't know anything sbout him but I do know I wouldnt want his job trying to satisfy all of us whiny hunters. He will get it straight
I know , I think he will too
Aren't the minutes to these meetings normally made public? So its not like it should be highly classified material - at least I wouldn't think so. So Sunday I am assuming you were at the meeting - how about informing us what happened????
Yes, I was at the public.meeting advocating for better buck management. Yes, I found out information from a credible source. Yes, you can ask for minutes or even attend the meeting.
If by a click of a button, I ask all registered democrats their position on abortion will I get pertinent information to the feelings of all Americans?
If I ask bait fishermen who keep their daily limit of trout what they think of additional catch and release waters, will my survey come back relevant or siding on my desire to not have any more catch and release waters?
What if I only ask members of the wvba their feelings on a peak of rut,3 day rifle hunt? Will that tell me how rifle hunters feel about it?
Maybe I could only ask people who buy a trout stamp if they want to see trout stocked or Muskies stocked.
Sunday more power to you going to a meeting to advance your cause. You and everyone here has the right to do so.
Ok so since you heard it from a creditable source - I take it that this matter was not brought during the meeting but basically just something you heard from someone either with the DNR or maybe one of the commissioners?
And from other things you said - I take it that the survey was sent to ether hunters or fishermen that really don’t deer hunt or something? I don’t know how it could be sent out to hunters who only side with being pro or con towards lowering the limit because how would the Dnr get that info?
Inquiring minds deserve to know the reasoning behind the bias claims. If there truly was, and I’m not saying there was or wasn’t, it should be rather easy to defend either stance.
I know what it is beginning to appear like what happened. And, it doesn’t appear as cut and dry as first insinuated way back up in this post. Time will tell I suppose.
God Bless men.
JayD, I think you take it wrong. With the new ELS and e-check and the data it’s generated the last 3 or so years it’s pretty easy to narrow things down. Just for example let me pick a hypothetical situation , let me pick something out of the air, uh , ok, for example all the people that bought extra buck tags versus all the people that didn’t could be found with a few clicks of the mouse . Theoretically , access to information like that could be used to decide who to send surveys to and who not to . Of course , this is all a hypothetical and theoretical example of how to use data to affect a survey.
Sunday you hit the nail on the head which is why all of these surveys are a total waste of money unless everyone gets one.,
Sunday you hit the nail on the head which is why all of these surveys are a total waste of money unless everyone gets one.,
Well gobbler I guess if you really get down to if they really did something like what you said was possible - guess it was not too much of a random selection process as stated. But what really confuses some of us is at first you and Sunday were all behind this survey. And again I will state like I did from the very beginning the only reason I used the words certain group was that if it hadn't been for someone I know telling me about he saw where members of your group got the survey - I wouldn't have even known about it. Well until hoppies posted on here. Besides the people in the group I know of only 1 other who got a survey and that was a family member of someone on here who pm'ed they did. I even stated that I didn't think it was anything unusual or a conspiracy that it happened that way - just that is how I found about it.
Which what I stated above even confuses me more that if the deck was stacked or only surveys were sent out to people who bought an extra tag or whatever - how comes members of the certain group got surveys??? I mean I still don't think it is rigged just because I only know of one person other than those from BBM who posted that they got a survey. I cannot even tell you if he is not a member of it because I didn't ask.
I have to admit I am a big supporter of our DNR and I really like the director - but what you and some others are stating now and in the past - I am asking you as one of the commissioners - do we need to be concerned about what you and some on here are stating? I think this is serious if you are telling us that this survey process was rigged! I think it is serious if one of the commissioners gives our dnr a very low grade on a public poll on grading our state that was posted on here earlier this year. I think I am right by saying that I thought you gave them an F or D on deer management which may not be everything they do but it is a big part and I would take a guess to say the money maker for the DNR.
You seem to be a man who holds true to his ideas and values - such as resigning from your lifetime membership with WVBA - I know we disagree quite often but you seem to stick behind your ideas and opinions. Just look at this post when you thought I was making a statement about the BBM members getting the survey - you stuck up for the group and said something like - you would think with a group of 18,000 it would be logical to think a few would get some of the 6000 surveys sent out. Again I was not making a statement that i was upset that they got the survey just that because of them I found out the survey even existed. So you and Sunday are very quick to defend them but in return you resign from WVBA and you have been very quick at times to condemn the DNR - which again concerns me - because is this just a simple case of where someone from the dnr came up to you sunday and said - hey something fishy may have happened with the survey? Or could it be some of the results were coming in and it didn't favor the way you all would like it to so you are now thinking that the survey was not very reliable?
None of this questioning would be happening right now if certain statements like rigged or deck was stack were not made by the two of you is all I am saying.
JR remember you and I and others made the call about how reliable this survey would be and if it was truly cost effective when it first came out - now I am concerned with the bigger picture - if something fishy is going on - because I think most of us hold our DNR in high esteem for the job they do, how they do it and for many of them with not enough pay and many hours put into their jobs. When people who hold an office (commissioner) and people who spend a bunch of time with the DNR on issues (such as Sunday hunting or thru groups such as BBM) start raising issues of something being rigged or giving our DNR a failing grade on public polls - then I think we all need to be concern about it... JMO
I read gobbler’s posts to be pretty clearl that he felt everyone should want a fair and honest survey regardless of which side of an issue you stand on.
As Mountaineer said, I think it would be a good idea to wait on facts to come out. Then, if it is proven that there was any wrong doing associated with the survey, it should be addressed with DNR officials.
For the record, I rarely post here and am not a member of any “group”. I am simply a West Virginian who likes to hunt.
I was excited about a survey. Because, if done right it could finally put to rest the question of if people wanted things to stay the same or if they wanted a lower limit. We would finally have data as to the hunting public’s desire and maybe this whole thing would end.
Second. To this second, I don’t know a single result of the survey and have not been told a single result , or which way it may or may not be leaning, except where 1 person I don’t know put a picture on FB of the survey and how he filled it out. I do take some offense suggesting that I may have received some info about how it was going one way or another then suddenly became concerned about it, but that’s fine. I don’t care. What I do care about is that it is a fair nonbiased survey that reaches all segments of the Deer hunters in an equitable manner. I believe that is the directors wish also.
Yes, I am concerned about the survey and how it all went down but I don’t know all the answers yet. So, again I say I’m going to wait until the Director gets back from his personal leave and let him figure the rest of it out. I will say the additional 2500 surveys that went out were NOT part of the original plan and those additional surveys went out through an order by the Director.
As far as WVBA, as an American citizen I’m free to join or quit any organization I see fit. But, if u remember there were a number of members that quit around that same time.
First off Gobbler if you read what I said I wasn’t bashing you over the WVBA resigning but saying because u were a lifetime member that you were a man who seemed to be true to your ideas or values. Also mentioned how when you get behind something like the BBM group you defend it - so for me you do not have to give me a reasoning for doing so and you are darn tooting it is your right to do so. My point to all of that was that you have been pretty quick to say some things that have given me concern with the DNR.
You were the one who gave them a bad grade - you were the one who after saying you liked the survey and defended it at first - who then later said it was flawed from the beginning, the deck was stacked By one certain group and it was a waste money.
I am sorry again those things concern me very much coming from two guys who are as close as you are to this matter. Probably would have been better for you to not say anything about it until you were fully ready to disclose what you know about this and why your opinion changed on the survey.
I mean you have to know something in detail for you to say it was flawed and stacked from the beginning.
Again wasn’t bashing you over the resigning - I would assume you had to think long and hard over resigning being a lifetime member - you believe in your convictions. So I would think you did the same in this situation before you posted some of the things - so hopefully now you know why some of us want to know what’s up.
Here is my take. Unless all hunters have a chance to answer the survey it is worthless. Kinda like the surveys stating Hiliary was going to win in a landslide.
So I take it that the survey was to find out if the WV hunters wanted a lower buck limit. I'm just guessing but I would say they don't. I would also say that anything that could reduce revenue for the DNR will not happen.A reduction in money from extra tags would surely have to be met with an increase somewhere else.
Let me be very specific for you. 1) The survey itself is a great idea
2) Manipulating who gets the survey to attain desired results is not a good idea.
3) Its ok to initially have faith that a governing agency would offer a fair, unbiased survey.
4) its ok to change your mind about a survey when you find out It was not fair or unbiased from the beginning.
5) If shady things happen you probably deserve some condemnation. Too many years of getting away with such shenanigans.
6) Its ok to wait on a FOIA, OR EVEN SUBMIT YOUR OWN, instead of demanding answers on bowsite. Too easy to sit back and criticize the doers of deeds could have done better.
Gobbler and Sunday,
I don’t think once I have said that you can’t be for the survey and then against it. The point I was making to both of you is that you all were for it and then something happened to turn your opinions on it. And that is perfectly fine and dandy.
But then both of you started throwing out words such as rigged, flawed , deck stacked, people should be held accountable. I am not saying I disagree with you at all because I don’t know. What I am saying is you come on here and start these accusations but don’t give any details and you accuse me of speaking in code! And I really don’t think ianyone is demanding anything of you - I think people have requested of the two of you to tell us why you are making the statements that it was flawed, rigged, stacked, someone should be held accountable. You all were the one’s to make those claims - no one else . I totally agree with what you have stated in your last post except for you last response #6 - I think it is wise of the rest of to ask these questions - instead of allowing someone to come on and make serious accusations about a cause that we all take serious and hold close to our hearts. To be truthful with you I don’t know why we are even arguing over this because I would hope all of us want a fair and properly done survey! How many times before have each of you posted additional info to back up your stance on something - for some reason you don’t want to on this cause - I will state again I just don’t think this is highly classified information. Maybe littlebear was right and it was the darn Russians!
JayD, I’m going to say one thing again then I’m done with this post until I know more, and is what I said to Mountaineer earlier on this post. That shouldn’t be hard to find since it seems like you have a dairy of every thing I have ever said. Literally less than 4 days of hearing about the reason for the second wave of surveys the Director had to take personal time off. I was not able to reach him during those days for follow up. So, some information was available then the spigot was turned off. I can’t turn it back on, I have to wait for it to be turned on again .
When I wrote what I did at the time I fully expected the full story to be coming in a matter of days. As it turned out that didn’t happen. I don’t have a crystal ball to predict the future . Had I known that the spigot was going to be turned off I wouldn’t have said anything at that time and waited but I didn’t , no one did. I hope this satisfies your inquisitive mind because it’s all I’ve got. If it doesn’t then that’s your problem not mine.
Well I agree . Let's hold them accountable. I guess we should ask for the Director's resignation.
I think it time for this post to end until results of survey are released. Archery season starts in 30 days . Who is ready for nice quite evening in a tree stand .
JR, If u knew what was going on right now u wouldn’t say that even as a joke
I will say this and be done until the answers to how, when, who, etc.... are answered. I have been plain here. Everyone here knows my stance as I made it clear from word go. I want to point out that the reason those were possible concerns was the not knowing of the details. And, words in the past on this subject. I have heard the commissioner claim change was coming to our deer management. After becoming a commissioner. That is about as agenda driven as you can get. I've seen those posts on this site disappear after doing so. I read here where this survey was such a great idea. Then read where it wasn't, based on opinions. But, the most confusing part to me was just hearing that this survey's intent was to tell the DNR how the hunters of WV felt about Buck management. I surely hope that wasn't a literal statement.
Look, we can argue about things based on opinion. But, I don't want to base my deer management on what 8500 surveys say. Nor do I want a biased survey directing it in anyway. I want the science behind it and I'll learn to be happy. Getting it right for all facets of deer hunting's future in this state is important to me. Not just getting it my way. I've come to the conclusion that doesn't hold true for everybody. So, please understand I refuse to take the word of my mother about this until i can see the reasons for these claims and, the reaction's of our DNR to it.
Cory, since you seem to have a source not privy to the rest of us, share with me what needs to be put on the foia submission and I'll gladly file one. But, you haven't shared any names, give any indication of anything except you got a tip from a credible source. I think you are a credible man. But, I'm not taking your word for it either. So, share the "source" and I will gladly submit my own if you'll guide me through it. Suggesting anything else isn't an option since you and Greg are dealing with a different set on info then anyone else seems to have.
I mean no disrespect here. So, before anyone gets mad and tears into me remember, that I haven't said one word about anyone here that they themselves didn't say first. So, understand where people like me are coming from. Claims of bias? Maybe you are right. But, until it is proven I don't think anyone here can expect the other side to believe that just because it was said so. There has been to many prideful statements and declarations to not feel this way.
So, I will now wait on the director to return and the FACTS of this all to present. That is not a knock against anyone. I'm sure if I were setting in a privileged position on this versus any of the BBM crowd, the feelings would be mutual. Based on the same reasons. So, don't take it personal. God Bless men
Well I'm not joking now. If he is the boss and he drops the ball he is responsible. I guess we will find out if the DNR is responsible. We live in a world now of transparency. Being secretive doesn't help with that.
And it's mt last post on it too. I really don't care. Too old to worry and argue about it. Going to shoot my bow.
"Being secretive doesn't help with that" - you nailed it JR
I agree time to shoot the bow - hope this heat moves out of here!
JR, I can personally assure you with 100% confidence that the Director did not drop the ball on this . He’s on sudden personal leave and that doesn’t mean he’s at Disneyland .
Ok one last question for you gobbler and I don’t think this should offend or upset anyone. So with the additional 2500 surveys sent out - how was it determined on who should get these surveys? Was it the same as the first 4000? Did they have a new selection process? If the initial process was flawed what was done to assure the additional 2500 was done in a way to please everyone?
[Let me be very specific for you. 1) The survey itself is a great idea
2) Manipulating who gets the survey to attain desired results is not a good idea.
3) Its ok to initially have faith that a governing agency would offer a fair, unbiased survey.
4) its ok to change your mind about a survey when you find out It was not fair or unbiased from the beginning.
5) If shady things happen you probably deserve some condemnation. Too many years of getting away with such shenanigans.
6) Its ok to wait on a FOIA, OR EVEN SUBMIT YOUR OWN, instead of demanding answers on bowsite. Too easy to sit back and criticize the doers of deeds could have done better.]
Ok someone please tell me how this is being specific? Just looks like the accusations being made again with no facts. All I am saying is - don't say this stuff unless you back it up with the facts. Because you just make the rest of us want to know what is going on and again this should not be classified info that has to be locked up in a vault somewhere . Myself personally - I think using the Director's leave to say you can't say anything makes it look like he had more to do with the issue and will make someone like JR say hey maybe he needs to go. And gobbler we can both agree that we both think the director is a good man.
[I do take some offense suggesting that I may have received some info about how it was going one way or another then suddenly became concerned about it, but that’s fine. I don’t care.]
[because is this just a simple case of where someone from the dnr came up to you sunday and said - hey something fishy may have happened with the survey? Or could it be some of the results were coming in and it didn't favor the way you all would like it to so you are now thinking that the survey was not very reliable?]
I am sorry you take offense to this I was in no way making an accusation - which is a charge or claim to get the definition of it right. Because some on here have made accusations which they are not supporting at this time with the facts. All I did was start throwing out some hypothetical situations and asking you and Sunday if this is what could be going on?
Who cares about this ? enough is enough
No it isn’t. I imagine everyone here cares about it. Or, they wouldn’t talk about their preferences.
You can act like this is no big deal. That’s your right. But, from what We’ve been told in this thread the potential for foul play here makes it a huge deal.
Of course Cory could clarify one end of that by sharing his credible tip info so I can file an FOIA request. We will see I supppse.
LOL a dingleberry comment on another forum you care about and beat the death out of it but accusations made on a government agency and we are suppose to forget about it? As with the dingleberry comment was meant to mean - seems foolish to me.....
JayD, IDK the answer to the question about the additional surveys. If I did I would tell you. I do know they were sent out after the Director had a meeting with Wildlife , which was a couple of weeks after the first round went out. . As I mentioned above the procedure was that he was supposed to have a meeting with biologists to see and approve the survey before they were sent out, but I was told they were sent out 2 days before the scheduled meeting. Which, at least for me , IF, that is indeed the case raises a red flag because procedure wasn’t followed. For at least the 3rd time in this post I wasn’t able to get followup. I can’t tell u or anyone something I don’t know yet.
Ok so all ya know as right now or can confirm is that some procedures were not followed. So looks like to me then you all went off a little prematurely about things being flawed or rigged and this could be a big stink about nothing. Then Cory has heard from some Deep Throat person who is creditable that something happen so we have some more Hearsay.
All I would ask for is that before posting things like flawed, rigged, shady, years of shenanigans, deck was stacked - is maybe getting the evidence or facts first might help before getting everyone worked up over something that may or may have not happen. Its one thing coming from some ordinary Joe doing that but some of us on here (even though we do not agree with you 100%) do try to take what you say serious.
Its your choice to get worked up about it.
The evidence is there. You are just concerned that YOU don't have the evidence or knowledge of such.
Cory if you have this evidence then whats the big deal with not telling us? Heck this is one thing we all can agree upon that we want it to be done properly.
I heard someone in the legal profession once say - "if the glove doesn't fit you can't convict". SHOW US A GLOVE THAT FITS! Then everyone will support you to the fullest! It doesn't get any freaking easier than that!
Does the offer still stand on me being able to join the BBM group again? Lets get this conversation started there and see how many of your members won't stand with some of us here for you two to spill the beans on what you say you know. Sounds perfectly fair to me. I am going to get on Facebook now and rejoin. Man you work hard by being secretive as JR would say to get people to rejoin your group I will give you that!
Cory that is not nice to invite me to rejoin the page and then block me so that I cannot.... why?
I don’t understand why you would not want you members to know about the rigging of the survey?
Wow to many secrets here it must be the Russians or Fake News....
Cory, are you going to share your credible source so I can access the same evidence you have?
Cory didnt block you. That would be me.
WOW. I hope some day we can all meet and talk face to face. I'll buy dinner.
Actually, it was........
See how easy it is to have misunderstandings. :^)
LOL I really messed that one up but at least you knew where I was going with it! too funny
Cory I apologize for thinking it was you who denied the request and blocked from the group. Guess for some reason somebody has a problem with discussing the issues
Cory, I know you have read my repeated requests? Why the silence?
I hope the director is not off of work for to much longer. This thread could go on forever.
I know. Isn’t it terrible that our deer management has shady characters trying to get things their way.
It is terrible. The best thing we can do is to keep a positive attitude and hope everything works out for the best. It also never hurts to stay on top of situations like this so that it is known what is being done by certain people to get the results that they want.
Agreed it is terrible if something is going on - it was nice when most people on here use to back their claims when posting. Guess from here on out we can post anything on here we want. Heck on their site you get blocked just because they think you may do something not because you actually did something!
Ok so I am going to come right out and ask this - why are you all making these accusations about the DNR on here but on your BBM Facebook page you have not mentioned it? I have asked several of your members this and they seem pretty confused about why you have not informed them of this matter. It would seem to me that your 18000 strong group would be totally pissed about a rigged survey. Wouldn't they???? Why would one of you invite me to rejoin but when I say I am going to rejoin and let the rest of the members know of something that may be totally wrong that happened and the survey was rigged against what they may believe in - I get blocked from joining? Is this a conspiracy gobbler? LOL Curious minds would like to know. And this is not me being a butthole or dingleberry and calling you bad names - this is someone asking you reasonable questions.....
Probably just a case of the cart before the horse. Things will shake out in due time.
Mountaineer, shady characters, LOL, now that’s funny! Good one! Do you think it would be terrible also if the license buying hunters (customers) that actually fund the DNR finally got a fair chance to voice their opinion thru a fair nonbiased survey?
Greg, It was a euphemism. But, the fact that you find it necessary to respond to such as a comment as directed towards you might be more telling then anything I have asked or, you have said so far. Let me be more clear so you do not misunderstand me anymore in this thread. I have stated all along that I do not know with certainty what is going on. But, to answer your question: It is terrible. About as terrible as that same customer to expect a commissioner of that DNR, who just made serious accusations about the DNR's attempt to conduct a survey, to give us the facts as to why he says the survey was rigged or, the deck was staked against the so called customer. Don’t you think?
And as mentioned for the 5th time in this post, after the Director is back and is able to finish dealing with the issue more information will be coming out I’m sure . I did call his secretary today and had her review the minutes from last Commission meeting because I thought I remembered him saying something during the meeting. And in the minutes He did say during the meeting that one of the reasons that the additional 2500 surveys were being sent out was due to what he felt was a disproportionate amount being sent to landowners that didn’t buy licenses. Don’t ask me percentages because IDK. But he is an astute businessman and he has shown me no reason not to trust his judgement. As I’ve said before, all classes of hunters should be surveyed but in a fair equitable manner. And just to be clear with the new system it’s rather easy to tell which landowners have a lifetime license or which ones buy an annual license or not. That’s the only new info I have and I got it by having the secretary go thru the minutes. I do not expect to have any additional info that I can confirm until the Director is back in the office and is able to get caught up on multiple issues. It would be nice for everyone to chill for the weekend and enjoy the football game and holiday weekend. Remember, I don’t get paid nor take any available reimbursements for having the honor of this position and the time and thought I put into it. I will not be responding to anymore posts regarding this issue until I have and confirm more information. Go eeers!
Awrsome. That amount of input would have saved a hundred posts and a bunch of your time. When you ask me a question, expect an answer. That’s communication 191. Up to that point, it’s real clear who I was talking to with the posts I made.
And as I’ve made clear here about 4 times now: I’m going to ask Cory a simple question. Who was the source so I can gain the same info you have and, file a FOIA request as well?
My source doesn't want to be known by unknown individuals on bowsite. Why do you want to file a FOIA on the same information?
Mountaineer, I couldnt get it until it got transcribed and put on paper . I can’t just call her up and ask her to listen to 2 hours of tape to hear something I thought I remembered. The minutes still wasn’t officially done but she found it for me.
Ok, here’s a question, what’s WVU going to be ranked Monday? And I want the answer right now! I understand that the game hasn’t been played, and that the result will depend on all the rest of the games being played , then a bunch of guys have to hash it all out before the announcement will be officially made. But I want the answer now, so could you get it for me now. If I don’t get it I can come on here and post every 2 hours and ask you for it if you want.
The game will be over by 7 or so, so you should know right after that . Or, I can wait and let the weekend play out, let the people do their work and wait for results to be announced like an average person, but I want to know sooner and I just know that if you work hard enough and make phone calls you can get it sooner. I have faith in you .
Ok I said I wouldn't reply but I lied. Why don't all hunters get the survey? How do they know who the landowners are?
Well gobbler and Sunday the two of you should have known better to post what you did without having all the facts! You can’t sit there and say someone rigged or stacked the deck and then not offer any proof - which you still have not done - I mean so what one group got more or less that happens sometimes in a random selection process. That’s the reason most of said we did not like it from the beginning. When you make claims that it was rigged just tell us why because to me and others you have made it seem like someone in the DNR did something illegal and heck you even got it to the point where some thought the director needed to resign. Just don’t sound the alarm until you have the proof. Then you come on here at act arrogantly about the matter. I for one will be highly upset if someone did rig the survey no matter which way! One thing we can agree upon is - LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!!!!
I am going to call the DNR and get a survey
I don’t think it was ever insinuated that the Director did anything wrong. Everyone knows JRs sense of humor. Yes , the people that got the survey was supposed to be random, but the type of hunter as I understand it was supposed to be equally distributed throughout all types and age class. Maybe you are misinterpreting arrogance with frustration by being asked the same thing 3 times a day after it was explained 5 times as to why I didn’t have any additional info at the time and that if I had a crystal ball I probably would have waited because I didn’t know certain events would delay the flow of information. To prevent this from happening again, I will just stop posting any news that I hear one way or the other on bowsite.
Gobbler as to JR’s sense of humor I totally agree and I think most of us enjoy it but look at the pic I am posting of what he said - pretty much states he is not joking.
As to arrogantly commenting - you post the stuff like the score and rank of the mountaineers seems at least sarcastic to me.
Yes things have been repeated here many times but the only answer I think most of is wanted was why did you state it was rigged and bias or that a certain group of people wanted to influence the survey . Then you stated it was not an outside group of hunters which implies to me that it was members within the DNR. Again I cannot imagine you would post such things on a public forum if you do not know some info right now that you did not need to clarify with the director. Ok so maybe there is additional info you need cleared up and that is fine and dandy and you should do so. But what info did you use to post on a public forum to say that certain people who were not from an outside group of hunters (which again means it was an inside job) rigged the survey?
Again I did not really like the survey from the beginning so you give me the details that you used to be able to support your post saying it was bias, unfair and stacked by certain people on the inside and I will be right there with you in the complaint line.
Again I told you - you must be a man of your convictions for resigning your lifetime membership to another group - I just really think that had to be hard for you to do. And I just don’t think you would have made public such claims as it was unfair, bias, deck stacked by an inside group if you didn’t have some pretty major info already.
smart move. When you can't tell the whole story one shouldn't start the story.
Yea I was just messing around. I am sure he did nothing wrong. Where have you been mountain william?
Yea I was just messing around. I am sure he did nothing wrong. Where have you been mountain william?
Hiding It is safer that way. Know nothing about the survey and not going to get upset one way or the other.
Just wondering. Hadn't heard from you in a while.
Wow JR you had me going then - when you talked about responsibility, transparency and being secretive I thought you were being serious there.
Greg, no one is badgering you over what you have said. We all know what you have said. You don't have to repeat it because the problem isn't with that. You don't have to assume I'm talking about you when I post either. Because when I have addressed you I made that very clear and intend to keep doing that.
"My source doesn't want to be known by unknown individuals on bowsite. Why do you want to file a FOIA on the same information?"
I want to know for several reasons Cory. The first reason being there is a lot is riding on this source's opinion of bias. Secondly; you stated earlier for another poster to file one to receive the information. I assume that offer stood for anyone that wanted to do so. Also, I have no idea if he intends to do that but, I sure did after I read there was information available to determine if their was a bias. The final reason is I have been fed just enough to be told something with no pertinent information to analyze myself. Like I told you back up in this thread, I think a lot of you. But, I don't form opinions on anyone's word.
You fellas made the claim of bias. I'm frankly concerned that you are right about it being a rigged survey to favor someone's opinion versus what is best for deer hunting in this state. I'm not concerned at all that the director has done something shady either. However, I make a living based on statistical representation of real world data. Knowing the confidence interval with such a small sample size would be so large, there would be no realistic way to say it represents anything accurately with a random survey. Being the intent of these surveys were to carry a lot of weight with the direction our Deer management program was going to go, I'm quite frankly miffed and alarmed that 6000 surveys were thought to have been enough to represent what the deer hunters of this state want. I'm concerned that want is potentially driving future management. I'm also concerned hearing it was potentially fouled with. And, I'm also right on board that 2500 more wouldn't fix the problem, after bias was determined to be an issue.
As much as the state's deer management has been hashed out over the last 6 years on this board, I can't imagine everyone not sharing these same concerns.
Well 6000 surveys are not enough to tell what the hunters of this state want. It doesn't matter anyway.,when will you guys realize that this state simply can not reduce the buck kill without raising the license fees or tags a lot. Do you guys really think that most of the Hunters in this state want to kill less bucks and be charged more money for it? We will see how it shakes out however
JR, most everyone would agree with the amount of surveys not being sufficient.
Personally, I truly believe that most hunters in his state would gladly pay more to deer hunt in this state. And, I don't believe the majority would support a one buck limit either. I also don't think it has anything to do with a certain fee increase that causes that either.
Its due to most hunters being multiple weapons hunters. Many hunt in areas that do not allow doe harvests during rifle season. Many hunters also associate rifle season with heritage. And, a good bit of us do not measure trophies by inches.
With all that, what any of us wants deserves no relevance to the best management for WV's deer herd and its future. Yet you can't convince many hunters of that regardless of what they feel about buck limits.
JR you know you and I both agree about the number of surveys sent out. Heck many of us thought it was flawed but not by any illegal doings.
The problem some of us see now is that people who should know something about it have made some accusation about the DNR that should upset us all us if it was rigged!
wVMountaireer is right - it should be about what is best for our deerherd. Heck we have some farmers and insurance people who would love to see the deerherd reduced to minimum numbers and then you have the other extreme where as in the Park hunt where people convinced our governor to stop the hunt. So should we really be relying on polls or surveys?
Is there anyone out there trying to change the buck limit that is willing to speak up? Is anyone here willing to say who the source is? It's been stated above that not many of the BBM group knows about the bias that has been claimed. I know many of you here are in that organization as well. Is that true? Are only the bowsite member's privy to it? Are you all in the know or did you just develop a not care attitude towards the situation? I do know this though; not in the history of WV bowsite has anyone in favor of the lower buck limit been so quite with so many opportunity's to talk about lowering the buck limit.
This little deal is shaping up to be quite the story.
Well we won't have anything that decreases the revenue. I'll psy more to hunt. I know guys that won't. You don't have to worry . There will be no one buck limit.,
Well we won't have anything that decreases the revenue. I'll psy more to hunt. I know guys that won't. You don't have to worry . There will be no one buck limit.,
The only thing that worries me about the 1 buck limit JR is the fact that not one piece of data we have says it will be very effective at increasing the herd health of deer in this state. The only thing that is going to increase with a one buck limit for certain, is the cost of hunting leases and hunting ground. Restricting people from participation in the future. Like it has EVERY singe place antler size is running herd management.
However, if the data showed we were killing to many extra bucks on the second rifle tag, ensuring the doe harvest to decrease out of simple demand for deer meat, then I'd be on the BBM side's trying to ensure we were doing the right thing for the herd.
I think a one buck limit would increase the health of the deer herd but that doesn't matter as it would decrease revenue which we can't afford.
The survey was just that a survey nothing more . Anyone who knows anything about wv DNR knows that they are not going to lower the buck limit to 1 ever in this state . I stand for one buck limit and practice it where i hunt but i know wv dnr is not going to chance anything .
Hoppies - agreed - survey is just a survey - but accusations of rigging, stacking the deck and many years of shady things or shenanigans is a different story.
That should be much higher on our radar than a survey. If they are happening or if it is someone reaching over the line making the claims both are just plain wrong...
I mean many of us when we first heard of the survey and the way it was done were a little irked and thought it could have been sent to more hunters or that it could of been done electronically making it a little more efficient in our view but I also understood that the DNR has to work with what it has and I still think they are all good hard working people - the accusations sure do paint a different picture though..... JMO
JR, the only component that lower buck limits influences in WV deer herds is buck health. However, a buck to doe ratio fixes itself naturally very quickly. You want better bucks, make better habitat. Shoot more does and protect your habitat if you want a healthier herd too. It is a win win since the DATA the DNR has says bucks aren't being over killed.
hoppie56, the following quote was from Greg, the commissioner, on August 29th, 2018.
"I was excited about a survey. Because, if done right it could finally put to rest the question of if people wanted things to stay the same or if they wanted a lower limit. We would finally have data as to the hunting public’s desire and maybe this whole thing would end."
It appears that Greg had different feelings about the value and future use of that survey. I'm betting everyone else would share his feelings if this survey was indeed intended to carry that much weight. No, I KNOW the DNR director and most every deer hunter in this state would say they disagree that is was just a survey along those lines. Or, they wouldn't have done it initially and, the claim of bias would have never been made.
Well I agree shooting more does and not shooting bucks will create better bucks. We are both saying the same thing. I just don't think hunters in our state will let a buck go in favor of a doe. I know guys that kill their small bucks every year and are considered low life sissy's if they shoot a doe and not a buck. Seems that some hunter think it messes with their manhood to shoot a doe. I shoot does in WV because I use the meat. In fact I am eating some deer jerky as I type this. I have stated before I go out of state to hunt nice bucks. The more I think about it the more this survey makes me mad. The DNR will not lower the buck limit to one so it is a waste of time. Money that could have been spent on more officers etc. But this thread did get a lot of replies so it must be a hot topic.
The survey questions didnt just pertain tag limits , some where general questions about season dates and length . I think it would have been a great idea if more surveys would have been mail out or done by your DNR number , but that didnt happen like most things the state does, sad to say. I just cant understand why one buck limits work in other states like Ohio Illinois , Iowa Ky, Pa , Kansas Mn , are all those states doing it wrong they all seem to have healthy deer a herd and much better buck to doe ratio than WV , What makes wv different ?
Wv hunters want to kill more bucks. The other states have it right.
True Babysaph , Most hunters do but no all, Most dont have a clue what it is like to hunt where their are older and more healthy bucks and buck to doe ratio isnt 5 to 1. The sad part is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. and the state could add a crossbow stamp among other things to offset the loss from extra buck tags.
JR and Hoppies what about the states such as Iowa (believe you are wrong on it being a one buck state) , MO, WI pretty sure there are several others that allow more bucks than one - that rank right there with your one buck states? Heck look at some of the areas in Maryland that produce monsters! Not going to rehash our debates on this matter but a one buck limit is not needed to produce the results you would like to see. Just be prepared for other things like higher licenses and high priced leases! JR so a one buck limit will work on your place in the mountains with the good old boys? It will work here in the eastern part of WV about as well as it did in PA before they put APR’s into effect - that’s means it won’t do squat!
Good idea . Crossbow stamp.
Well there will be slobs that kill more than one buck just as they kill 5 or 6 now. But if most people don't shoot more than one we will have better bucks. You are right though we have been there before and it won't happen. Neither will 2 IMO.
But it does run up the posts on this otherwise boring site. LOL
JR agreed site has gotten a tad boring or slow - I just started a post about squirrel hunting and if I remember correctly you had a couple of pretty successful hunts last year where you posted some pics. How about posting pics agains and give a few tips!!!
Ok so someone asked a few days ago where WVU would be ranked and I told you guys it would be 14. Saw in the paper this am we are 14 in AP poll. I also predicted we would not have a reduction in the buck kill in 2017. I am also predicting we will not have a reduction in 2018. I will go out on a limb and say there will be no reduction in 2019 either. LOL. :)
Yes but will you kill your droptine spike this year is the question everyone will be waiting to be answered this year!
Doubt it. They are as hard to come by as 180 class bucks
JayD, I didn’t read all your posts but a buddy said you talked some guys out of investigating me for killing a bear a few years ago. I think you should have agreed if they thought I did something illegal. If it was just your buddies in Calhoun and Logan counties wanting to try and discredit me over something they THINK I might have done then anybody is welcome to report anyone but it would have just been a waste of time for the officers and that’s a shame because they have real poachers to deal with. But if it’s a real concern then call and report on anyone. The Monroe county officer, the District Sergeant, Lieutenant, and Captain come to my farm to rabbit hunt and doe hunt. They have keys and have 24/7/365 access to my farm anytime they want. They stop by from time to time for dinner. I would be stupid to kill an illegal bear not that I would anyway .
Since he talked them out of investigating you, what's the issue with Jay D?
It should not be up to a private citizen to screen who gets investigated and who doesn’t . All suspected cases of poaching or illegal hunting should be reported to NRP. They are the ones trained to evaluate complaints and follow thru on them if reliable.
Is Jay D high in the DNR? Or carry special rights we don't know about? Did he stop an investigation of you?
This whole thread and, the accusations made in it are so confusing. I'm simply so confused. Are you saying Jay D hurt or helped you? Why do you think he should have agreed with his "buddy's". Are they CO's? Remember, you have been operating through out this thread on information only a few seem to have. And, when you say things like you did concerning how Jay D should act, it is even more confusing as to what you mean.
JayD has connections high up with the commissioner.
Its really not that confusing . If they thought I did something illegal they should have reported it to LE. Just the same as anyone should report something they think is illegal . I have no thoughts one way or the other about it because I didn’t do anything illegal.
Mountaineer , have you ever had a bear hunting violation? I haven’t had a bear or any other game or fish violation in WV, any other state, or internationally.
LOL Wow have not been on here for a bit and it seems like a lot has happened. So i am going to list out a few things:
1- As to my buddies - except for maybe being on a few different forums and talking back and forth between threads or a few PM's - hard to imagine any of us can say we are personally close except for maybe a few of you. Heck guess the closest person I could say I am buddies with would maybe be JR and that is just because we went to the same school - he graduated I think about 4 or 5 years before me. Oh - he was one heck of a basketball player! My way of talking to them was that i typed in that I remember you killing a bear but couldn't recall that you ran feeders as well. Funniest thing about this is there were more than a handful of people who I remember had concerns over that and from what I remember couple of them are a few of your BBM buddies. I can only go back on the search history on this site so far (it won't allow me to search more than 80 or 100 post back) and I don't fully remember everything. I totally agree it should be up to someone to report if they think something illegal was done but I also like to give the person some reasonable doubt before I judge them or even ask them about it. Heck i remember just a few years ago you were with me on something we both thought could be a mistake - I hope you don't mind JR but it was you when you made a post about killing a deer the previous day or something like that but it was a few days after the season - i can't remember if you were making a joke about it or what the occasion was but if I recall both Greg and I said something to you so you could clear it up which you did immediately. Heck I knew JR would not do anything and that it would be good to tell him that it looked to me like his post made it sound as if he did something wrong - I said something to him so that he could clear up any doubts. Heck that may have been when the "internet police" term came up. So I guess where you said it should not be a private citizen who screens things should go towards you as well - guess you should not have said anything to JR about the incident and just let it run its course. I though will continue on here or any other forum that I participate on that if I see something that looks questionable I will say something because I think most are honest and maybe just posted something like a date or something in error.
2- as to knowing people in high places - well yes I met the Director last year and played golf with him. I think I explain that story already and won't go into detail about it anymore. I think he is a great guy but I don't think we would consider ourselves close personal friends.
3- Now Greg I am going to tell you what I think about your's and my issues. With the bear issue - seriously I don't recall you posting on here that you ran feeders on your place or not but I do remember you posting that you killed a bear. I want to say I may remember that you saw him a little ways away from you and you got out of your stand and stalked him if I recall but I can't be for sure on that either. Pretty sure I congratulated you on it thru your post. So you say you didn't do anything illegal on it - I would think most of us would take your word on it because I know I cannot go any further back on this site to see those post - heck wasn't it like 3 or 4 years ago? So I know you killed a bear - did you run feeders at the time? I sure as heck don't recall if you did or not and I told others that when they asked if I remembered that. Now I won't say who the handful of others are because it was thru PM's and I will keep others private messages to myself because that is what they intended to be - private.
With the WVBA - i have no problem with you quitting don't get me wrong I hate seeing someone quit a group like that but you have to do what you feel is best for you. I even stated you must be a man who truly believes in his convictions because you were a lifetime member and did so. More power to you and you have every right to do so. I do remember you posting one time that if anyone wanted to know why - you would pm them and deal with it that way. I know I sent you a PM asking why and you didn't respond so I dropped it and didn't ask you anymore you had every right to do that as well.
Now I will tell you issues I do have that I have problems with: this thread extremely bothers me - you made some serious accusation against a agency that is very important to most of us on here and you did so being a commissioner of that agency. I would not think you would have made these accusations on a public forum before knowing the details in full. I most certainly tried to give you every chance possible to explain yourself but your only answer was to say you had to wait until the Director came back. Me personally - it made it seem like you were stalling behind the director's absence (I may be wrong on that but that is sure what it seemed like). If you would of told me - "hey maybe I got carried away a little bit and spoke before i should have". I would have said no problem we all have done that before, but you stuck with the issue and said it was an inside job. To me that means someone inside the DNR did the stacking of deck. Maybe I read something wrong?
Next I do applaud anyone who accepts a position like you did - I am not positive but I do not think you get paid anything to do it except for maybe being reimbursed your expenses? Now with saying that and I know I am one who would not be able to hold back on being bias towards my beliefs if I were in a position such as this. Well to me sometimes it seems as if there is some bias when it comes to the BBM group. Again that is what it seems like to me others may disagree with me and that is fine. To me it seems that you get agitated when someone says anything that may go towards that CERTAIN group and then you defend that group pretty strongly. I am not saying it makes you a bad or terrible person and again you seem like you are a guy who sticks by his convictions. Being a hunter and fisherman and citizen of WV it does concern me to have someone tied to a state agency that sticks heavily with a group and philosophy that quite a few of us West Virginians do not agree with. Again may be I am wrong on this as well. Quick example on this - will go back in this post - I did not mention the group just said hey only way I found out about this survey was because some members of a certain group post about it. Next thing I know you are saying something like well don't you think it is only reasonable to think a group with 18,000 members would get some of the surveys. Why nothing I said was detrimental towards the group but you were there reasoning why they should have. Again you stick by your convictions and that group is one of your convictions. I just sort of feel that for having a position on a state agency a person might not want to show such strong feeling towards that group or philosophy. Again I may be wrong on it but I don't think I am quite as hard or express any bitterness towards you as you and some of your BBM buddies do towards some of the other DNR commissioners.
I will say thank you for your time for being a commissioner - I know it is not easy and you will not please everyone. You have stepped up to the plate though and you should be commended on that...... now those our my two cents on this subject.
Now on to the BBM group and then I am finished. At first I thought that it was going to be a good group even though I know there would be a difference in opinions. Going to put it out there yeah i went to another site and called some of you dingleberries for wanting DNR policies to be done thru our politicians instead of our biologist. Again look up the word - one of the definitions for it is foolish people - it does not just mean piece of crap! I think it is pretty petty when you follow your members to other forums to see if they have said anything about you (sad part is I can name off about half a dozen others you have done that to as well!). Think it is pretty bad when you invite someone to rejoin and then deny the request to join and then literal block them from even seeing the site. When I was a member of the group I did debate sometimes but if ever I thought there was a problem I would private message several of the administrators of the group and talk to them first and I would never post anything until we all agreed it would be ok (Cory you were one of them!). Heck I can't even post on this site with out your members saying how could I give the DNR a certain grade or whenever I post the number of bucks I see being called a liar by your members! And I am the one you block from your group! It is almost laughable. So enough said on this except - to BBM members please just do not respond to my post and leave my name out of your conversations and I won't mention your certain group here anymore. I think that should be simple enough.
First, thank you , I do not get paid a penny for being a Commissioner . Yes , Commissioners can get reimbursed for travel, lodging, and meals for meetings . I don’t know what all of them do. I will say that I have never sent a receipt in for reimbursement . I also have McDaniels secretary keep my name seperate from the DNRs masterbill for the meetings so I can pay my bill myself. As for the FB site itself , I’m a member but have no control over who gets in or out. If I understand it right that is determined by a group of administrators. Yes, I support BBM, I also support QDMA, RMEF, and am life members of both. I support NWTF and am a sponsor member each year working toward a life membership.
I said previously that I wasn’t going to post any other news I heard about survey . I have seen a copy of the FOIA request and response that was sent to DNR about survey(and no, it wasn’t Cory). I’m sure the info will come out in time .
Wish i had never asked the Question about survey. When i started this thread. It seems to have taken on a life of its own. sad to say. Hey guys bow season starts next weekend better get those rb tags if so inclined . I like to use them on doe my self Have a good season everyone.
I remember that JayD. I can't remember it exactly but the internet police had the DNR call me about it. It was ove me commenting about killing a spike. Evidently it was assumed I killed an illegal spike. It was cleared up with a phone call. But the internet police officer was revealed. Lol.
I remember that JayD. I can't remember it exactly but the internet police had the DNR call me about it. It was ove me commenting about killing a spike. Evidently it was assumed I killed an illegal spike. It was cleared up with a phone call. But the internet police officer was revealed. Lol.
Did the director ever come back and clear things up?
Yes, I was written a ticket for killing a bear whose eye tooth was too short. That's what the ticket was written on. Not weight. But, you knew that I had been issued a citation. I guess your source forgot the details so, you just had to ask. I've openly talked about it here before though. I have nothing to hide. I did nothing wrong. I simply don't know why you play semantics. This isn't about me, you, or anyone personally. I had done no wrong. I killed a legal bear. And, that was confirmed by the facts in a court room. The ticket was dropped.
Now, since you brought it up, Did the stand you were setting have a feeder on it? If not, how close was the feeders to this? You forgot to answer that earlier I assume. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Wouldn't you say?
You are right, none of what I or you just stated and asked is confusing. But, what is confusing about this whole thread is the innuendos you drop instead of just saying it. You stated Jay D shouldn't have talked those men out of investigating you. For Pete's sake Greg, what power does Jay D have here? He isn't in the dnr. He isn't an under cover spy. Hes a guy that heard people had it out for you and stated he didn't think that was right. By your own words. Except you are using it as a gotcha point. Which makes no sense what so ever. Add that in with the inside job comments and the accusations you've made, it starts becoming real clear how confusing all this is to anyone not in the know.
This Wednesday , the 26th will be his first official day back in office.
Mountaineer, I typed out exactly what happened, then I deleted it. The stand does not have a feeder close to it, besides I got out of stand and went after the bear I saw 200 yds away .
Fined for a tooth being too small?? As far as I’m concerned if someone does something and gets caught , accepts responsibility and takes the punishment or if Case dismissed then it’s over unless it’s a repeat offender.
So how long do the teeth have to be? Lol.
Yes. I was fined for the tooth being too small JR. Of course in the court room that charge stuck about 3 minutes. I’m not sure of the length required. Because the only laws outlining a legal Bear were in the regulations. At that time it had to weigh 100 pounds. The next year after my trial was when the regulations changed.
Greg, I’m aware that you got out of the stand to stalk the bear. I applauded you then and still do for the hunt. What’s debatable is did your feeders influence the bear being there. Of course in your mind they did not. But, anyone who’s tried baiting in bear country knows, that’s not a claim you can realistically make if there’s a feeder any where close to where you kill one.
We all know bears will travel long miles to get to a food source. Doesn’t matter if it’s natural or man influence. It wouldn’t be hard to clarify the question. But, you seem to be avoiding that after trying to smear me personally. It’s pretty simple Mr. Commissioner, how far was the closet feeder? If there was no potential for wrong doing, that should be a question you look forward to answering.
How much did the bear weigh and what was the reason for the tooth measurement ? I had never heard of a short tooth being illegal. Another reason to worry about shooting a bear I guess.
Its up to the officers discretion on what constitutes baiting. Some will say its ok past 100 yards and some will say outside the effective range of the weapon . I have heard from one that if the bear can't pick up the bait from where you shoot it its ok .The best bet is to talk to the local officer in the area you are hunting in and get their opinion . More and more bear sightings now so if you spend time in the woods there is a good chance to see bears .Just know the local law before you shoot and it should be ok .
I’m not going to answer your questions simply because I don’t want to. It’s none of your business . If you want to make a complaint to DNR LE feel free.
I think the guideline is bear size and not tooth size. I bet there are not many bears in the state bow killed that don't have corn in them.
I think it would be impossible to tell if a feeder is in your area. What if your neighbor had one on his property that you didn't know about? It could influence the Bears movement without you knowing about it
That’s my point JR. I guess we have to measure a bears teeth and read a bears mind before it can be shot:^)
I have however, been working on a special bear tooth length enhancer that can be sprayed over food plots. This will ensure adequate length of the Bears teeth . Look for it in stores soon.
I didn’t think you would Greg. Being the Class act you are. Just like always, you take pots shots at people, then hide from the actions by rolling it into a caring attitude due to your position. Only that’s called cowardly when properly titled. Not unsuspecting.
From the erased posts to your continual assurance you want to do the best job you can to represent the hunters and fisherman of WV. They are just punch lines you use to cover up your arrogance and your agenda. Say it ain’t so and I’ll post hundreds of posts containing as much to prove you wrong.
I have no earthly desire to try and have you investigated. You seemed to miss that in your attempt to discredit me. All because I asked what your problem was with Jay D. I’ll say this though. You are consistent in your actions here. From your bravado declaring change is coming to buck harvest, to your continual condescending messages about anyone that doesn’t fall in line with you. It never changes. And None of it is admirable, truthful, or conveys what you routinely claim about yourself since becoming a Commisioner.
If I were you, I wouldn’t answer the question at this point either. It would only open you to the same scrutiny you attempted to put on me. Something you don’t want. You are wrong about one thing though. You made it everyone’s business when you posted your story on the World Wide Web. Multiple times.
I find it routine that this thread went this way. Not ironic in the least. From the safety of your position you constantly imply everything I’ve said. You do this In Other ways too. Like smugly asking something you already know the truth too, then play it off as unsuspecting to try and slander a person. Yep. You are First class. Acting exactly like an appointed game commissioner should. SMH. It has been sad to see You disgrace that position with your childish antics and cool club mentality.
Mike, I didn’t have a game scale to weigh the bear on whole. But, The hide and head weighed 56 pounds. That I could verify by standing on a scale with and without it. Not the gospel but close enough for me and the courts.
The tooth charge is not statute. Funny thing is when the CO wrote the ticket, I handed him a copy of the regs and asked him to show me that law in them. He couldn’t. To this day I do Not know why he wrote the ticket. I truly don’t. But, I knew what was right. Which is why I fought it.
Will it enhance anything else, Dr. J.R.?
It might Jimmy. Havnt tested that yet. Lol
It’s America, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
"It’s America, everyone is entitled to their opinion."
Yeah, and there's not rule that says any of us has to have a clue what we're talking about before we express those opinions. God Bless America! :^)
Dr. J.R., how about hurrying up with that testing--PLEASE.
Jimmy tried to send you a PM. Says file not found. Send me one to see if it works. J.R
I’ve been at large for a couple days. Not having the time to revisit the thread. But, after doing so, I’m just left shaking my head.
“Local laws”? We have only statewide laws concerning bear harvests. No local ordinances. Only the regulations.
The WV DNR defines bear baiting as area. Not site. AREA. What that encompasses is no doubt left upto interpretation. Where conflict arises is when interpretation of the CO is different then the hunters when there is bait in the AREA.
That is not opinion. It has to be fact or you would have been written a ticket for killing a bear in an AREA that bait was placed.
As far as opinion on your character. You are right. Those are my feelings. Some will and will not agree with that.
In other words it is what the officer says. I wouldn't kill a bear in WV if he was carrying a sack of $100 bills on his back. They all have corn in their stomachs.
Yep. It leaves all interpretation up to the CO. And, no not all the bears in this state has corn in their bellies all the time. But, you can bet your bottom dollar in years when soft and hard mast fail, you'd be had pressed to find them anywhere except where feeders are present.
This is not to start this post up again but to hopefully put it to rest. I got a phone call from the director yesterday - still think he is a pretty good guy.
He said he was absolutely certain that no one within the DNR rigged or stacked the deck on the survey. Seemed like the only reason additional surveys were sent out was because of the landowner issue (for me that is not much of an issue since landowners are classified to be hunters whether they pay or not - according to that way of thinking are senior citizens only a fraction being a West Virginian because they use the homestead law?) Must admit coming from the highest source it made me feel better knowing NO RIGGING, BIAS or STACKING OF THE DECK did not happen, but I was almost 99.9% sure that NO RIGGING took place anyhow. For the men and women I have met who work in the DNR - all I can say is we have some outstanding people there! Can some improvements be made - sure they can - but tell me one government agency that cannot be improved upon. All I know is I think the DNR is in very capable hands and I think it is sad that we have some who give them a F in their grading - especially when under their own admittance things have been improving for 10, 5 and even 2 years!
We go from a stacked deck to non paying landowners being the reason? Wow. I don't see the relevance in the way this was made out to be by the Commissioner. Anyways, I too am glad to hear the director has faith in his agency's employees and, all this appears to be no issue in the scheme of things. Would have been nice to hear that from the Commissioner that made the claims. The Statistician in me still can't see how sending out survey's to an intended audience is fixing a proposed bias but, if the director is happy, then I am happy.
Thanks JayD for the update.
No, there was a survey sent by the DNR to like 4000 random hunters at first - then something happen where the director had 2500 (it was either 2500 or 2000) more sent out. It include several different types of question such as: regarding the limit and the start of gun season for deer. Some on here made accusations that it had been rigged to come up with certain results I guess. The survey in the voice is different but make sure you fill it out and send it in. It always helps to give the DNR as much info as we can - it does help them but as the director told me yesterday it all needs to come down to what our biologist recommend - they are the experts.
According to a FOIA, our biologist sent the survey out to landowners and ONLY licensed holders who bought an ADDITIONAL DEER STAMP OF SOME SORT. Randy Tucker, also sent the survey out two days before they were supposed to meet about the survey.
If there was no initial bias, why send out more surveys?
With such a small sample segment, how did McDaniel and Commissioner Milne both get a survey?
How did i miss this jewel...........SMH.
Were the tags purchases including doe tags? Or extra bow tags? Or only an extra rifle buck tag?
I am a lifetime license holder. I buy extra tags and I am a landowner - if I kill a deer on my place I normally check it in as landowner - I received no survey - sort of seems random to me. Plus I have talked to and sent emails Mr. Tucker in the past - would have thought he would have made sure I got something if it were bias - just have a hard time believing that!
So why send it out two days before you meet with your boss about it?
I will be hopefully seeing the director here in a few weeks so I will be sure to ask he that question. Hey Cory is the invitation to rejoin the page open or still closed?
I'm not so sure that you not receiving a survey makes the survey random.
Your only intention is to stir. As long as that is a fact, the answer is no. You can go to Basnett Outdoors, wvsportsman, and Kenny for that.
Cory did I ever stir before - you and I both know the answer to that. So don’t sit there and tell me what my attentions are! You actually do have some really good people on the page that I like listening to and converse with. Shame that you allow some to make snide remarks about the rumored drinking problems that a certain member may or may not have. Oh what about those that put down others for shooting a small buck whether it be a child or adult hunter or those members that come on this page and call others liars - yea keep those types on your page. LOL How many times did I contact an administrator there before I posted something or to point something out? Glad to see this is how you treat people! Now we do know who stirs here. Oh and Who is Kenny? And if I were to stir the pot can’t you just kick me off? Seems like you just don’t want other points of views or the facts to actually be posted.
I do like to ask questions and promote many avenues of deer management not just one dimensional lower the limit or better yet a one buck limit. But I guess you would prefer not to actually discuss all avenues that promote deer management. For someone who doesn’t like someone to stir the pot - you sure do like to point a finger. Hope you have a great season - I just pulled my cards out of the cameras this afternoon and it sure is looking promising here!
So, was surveys only sent to landowners who purchased extra buck tags? Or did it include doe tags and extra bow tags?
I’m not trying to stir the pot either. I just can’t wrap my itty bitty mind around why that would be unfair unless it was only sent to landowners who purchased only extra buck tags. For the life of me, I just can’t.
sportoutfitter - I like to point out the facts and it is hard to promote an idea when the facts don’t support it!
WV Mountaineer - some people just do not trust our DNR and it is pretty evident who they are on here. Good gracious now they are even singling people out by name. I have spoken to Randy Several times and he has always been great to me and very helpful! Again I think highly of all of the DNR personell that I have met or spoken with.
Me too. The few I’ve met. But, if Cory or someone else would just clarify what the FOIA said. Was it just extra buck tags. Or was it all tags combined? Seriously. I just can’t see it as even relevant unless it was mailed only to people who bought just an extra rifle buck tag.
I am a landowner and I didn't get a tag. Seems they would want all hunters to get a survey
Well, let me try it this way since I can’t get an answer.
Greg, do you truly believe it was rigged? Is the only reason bias was suspected was due to only landowners who bought the extra buck tag receiving surveys. Or was it just extra deer tags.
With all the auto correct on phones now, I want to make sure I’m reading everything as it was intended to be written.
I meant I didn't get a survey. Sorry
( sorry for the wrong number depending on what page of which type of respondent - the number was different - I was in a hurry to leave for Morgantown and did not receive the right number) I am hoping to get the results from the survey here soon - I am not posting to debate just give the results:
Now this is just what I heard so far but will know for sure when I do get the results but what I heard so far is that ## are supporting keeping the limit at 3 bucks. If someone heard differently please post. Hope to have the results soon but I am headed to Morgantown shortly to take daughter back and then return tonight as well. So it may be late by the time I get anymore numbers.
Try again. Hope this one is better
2 bucks or less 54.81%
3 bucks or more 45.19%
non license holder
2 bucks or less 45.75%
3 bucks or more54.24%
The survey was also sent to out of state hunters who bought license in Wv.
Well I guess I am the only hunter in the state that didn't get one. Lol. They sent them to non license holders? How did they determine which non license holders got one? I think it's odd that they send them to non license hunters and not all of the license. Holders. I still think it will be 3 bucks.
I am assuming the non-license holders are the landowners. It’s late and I just got back from Morgantown - am I corrected in seeing that the number of people who responded is around 2100 -2140 out of the 6000 or 6500 hundred sent out? I sort of think that is sad that more people didn’t return them no matter how they replied! I think in one of my first post on this I was afraid this would happen that people would not participate.
Yes, less than 2200 people returned the survey . I do not know why my pictures are so blurry and sideways but this one shows where the surveys were sent. My guess is that the out of state people would want a more buck tags also .
Good stuff M.P. Thank you.
Thanks MP. Not enough participation to draw any conclusions from it. 2200 hunters out of all the hunters in WV? just shows the apathy in our state.