Bowsite.com

Shooting Problem - Could Use Opinions

I've been practicing a lot this year. Some days I'm really pleased with my accuracy, other days, not at all. Lately, I've noticed that very subtle changes to the position of my bow hand and wrist have a dramatic effect on the point of impact (left and right). The really troubling thing, is that lately, every single shooting session, my first arrow always flies far to the left of all subsequent shots (2" at 10 yds, 6" at 30 yds). For what it's worth, it seems like the bow jumps a little to the left at the release also. Oh and I'm shooting righty. Do you have any guesses as to what I'm doing different on my first shot versus the 5, 10 or 20 that follow? Obviously, the first shot being off doesn't foster a lot of confidence in a new bowhunter.

I think you're moving the bow left(upon release) to see where the arrow makes impact, it's common.

Hmm. That's interesting. I was guessing it had more to do with positioning of my body. Tonight I'll try focusing on allowing a natural followthrough to occur and see what happens. Thanks!

How you grip the bow is critical to left/right point of impact. I assume you are using a sling to minimize torque. Make sure you hand and wrist are as close to exactly the same as possible for every shot. Also make sure you are drawing the bow the same distance, same anchor point every time.

I had the same issue. The gentleman at overtons changed my grip. Bow should be on the pad between the thumb and index finger. I them make kind of a fist with my fingertips resting on the front of the bow grip. Also changed how I anchor. Those two things made a massive improvement.

All good advice. Maybe do what Ksgobbler did and have someone watch you shoot. This IMO is the best way to get you back on track.

If you really want help please post a picture of yourself at full draw. That way we can help with form, grip, anchor, etc. I would also need to know what poundage you are shooting, draw length, arrow length & spine, and point weight. Many times people have accuracy issues and can't figure it out. Then we find out they are shooting 400 spine arrows out of a 70 lb bow. Or maybe their draw is simply a 1/2 inch long. You will get lots of opinions but until we know your set up it is all just guess work.

Great point about the setup Jeff

It could be any of the above. It could be center shot, cam timing, rest height, etc as well. To start telling a guy why he is not shooting accurately before knowing all the details about his set up is "putting the cart ahead of the horse". But if he has fliers going left, I say the draw length is probably to long to start with. If that is the case, there is only one way to fix it, get a shorter draw mod. Which is why we need a picture.

Yup sounds like your peaking on that first shot. You also have to shoot with a relaxed bow hand, don't grip the bow. I am not a lot of help as I cannot shoot much at all anymore. My left shoulder allows maybe 4 or 5 arrows every few days. I will say it really makes me concentrate on everything as my shots "have" to be good. Shawn

At least your still at it Shawn. I had a bad shoulder for a very long time from my early years of training. Had surgery finally 2 years ago and it’s like I never had an injury. I won’t lie the surgery was no joke.

I need a total replacement, hoping to make it until I retire!! A year and 4 months!! Shawn

I’ve only been shooting for 1.5 years, so I don’t have the experience many of you do. I really appreciate all the feedback. However, I feel like I can eliminate some of your suggestions. I have paper-tuned my bow and used charts to ensure the correct dynamic spine for my rig. I know not to grip the grip. Also, on most days, my point of impact is very consistent, EXCEPT FOR MY FIRST SHOT.

For some reason the first shot tends to be my only flyer. Perhaps I’m tense or overthinking my form on the first shot. I don’t know.

I have been struggling with choosing the best position for my bow arm and hand. All the training I’ve seen would have my palm almost vertical. However, doing so makes for a very small and unstable contact area with the grip of my bow (which tilts forward a bit). I feel like I should let my palm tilt forward to match the angle of the grip and go for even pressure along the vertical length of the grip. I too like to curl my fingers and let them lightly touch the front of the grip. This helps me know I’m being consistent and that I have them away from the arrow head.

Also, the training I’ve read and watched leads me to believe my forarm should be rotated such that my elbow points outward. However, my shooting is much more consistent when I rotate my arm such that my elbow faces downward.

I appreciate the comment about anchor point. While I paid it a great deal of attention in my first year, I think I’ve neglected as I’ve been worrying about other things lately. I think I’ve been more focused on the picture through my peep.

You are anticipating your first shot. Right handed shooters shoot left when anticipating the shot. Put all your focus on your first shot on a good surprise release.

Brick, sounds to me like you actually know the issue. You stated that you are struggling to find a consistent grip. Get that figured out and then you can address any additional variation. I've shot "high wrist" since 1983, it used to be recommended. Read up on wrist positioning and find the one that feels right and provides the best results. And realize you are not alone with fighting form etc. Everybody has, is, or will have some type of issue shooting a bow. Heck that's the challenge and the reward for developing that skill.

First shot tonight, I focused on a nice, slow and steady release. The bad news, the arrow impacted about 7” left at 30 yds. I felt and saw the bow lurch to the left upon release. The good news, I have a strong hunch about what happened. For my bow hand to jump that much, I think my left arm was not pointing directly out to my side. I think it was angled slightly forward. Then, with the tension across my back it would be natural for that arm to swing back upon release. For all this to be true, I was probably anchoring too far back and perhaps using too open of a stance.

The other good news is I only took one shot. I’ll go back out in an hour and try another first shot. This time, I’ll be mindful that my feet and torso are squared up to the target and that I’m not anchoring so far back that I have to swing my bow arm a bit forward.

Reading this, it probably sounds like I have some really fundamental problems and have no clue how to shoot. In truth, I’ve studied a lot and have been really pleased with my progress in the past year and a half. I think I just got too comfortable and stopped paying less attention to some of the basics.

You might also look into your arrow selection. If you are shooting an arrow that isn’t spined correctly or properly spine tuned, it is like shooting a banana out of your bow. The arrow will flex mid-flight and cause inconsistencies downrange. Software programs like The Archery Program or Archers Advantage can help with making the right arrow selection based on your bow set-up info that you enter. Also helps to have machine fletched arrows Too. Good Luck!

Well. I think that was it. When I forced myself to place my feet and torso perfectly perpendicular with the target and minded my anchor point, my first shot was actually several inches right of the bullseye instead of far left of it. And the best news is that my next 4 shots were in a very tight group with that one. It seems if I get back to focusing on my form I should be good.

Why did this happen? A couple of reasons, I think. In the last month, I’ve been working on my ability to hold my bow steady on target and to not rush my shot. Thinking too much about this apparently made me lazy on my form. Also, with the short axle to axle length of my bow, the angle of the bow string is a little sharper than most and my peep is probably a little further away than most. I think I have a tendency to creep my anchor point back until my peep is close enough that the outer circle of my forward sight becomes visible.

And remember, when you're shooting out of a stand or ground blind you're many times not in that comfortable backyard stance. Practice shooting sitting down and from elevated stands before the season. Good luck and get a big one.

Shoot a Mathews ! Lol couldn’t resist it . Good luck and I’m sure with everyone’s help on the forum you will tighten your groups .

It sounds like you’re on the right track. If you have a quality archery shop around with an indoor range, it would do you some good to take a lesson or two from the shop pro. It sounds like you’ve done your homework, but having a well qualified pro help you with shooting form and technique could be invaluable.

Sounds to me like your draw length is too long. Just a post a pic. I know you say you have everything figured out as far as set up but why not just post what it is. If you are shooting 70 lbs and a 28 inch or longer 340 spine, you are underspined and form won't fix that. If you center shot is off form won't fix that. You also need to tune the bow to your shooting form. You do this by doing a modified french tune, not by paper tuning. That only tells you what a fletched arrow is doing at 3 feet. French tuning is tuning the bow for any torque you have on the riser. French tune, bare shaft tune, walk back tune, and then broadhead tune. Paper belongs in the bathroom. Put a fixed blade broad head on there and see where she groups. I would think that your left fliers will double in length. Make sure your arrow is centered through the berger hole. If you are above or below the berger hole 1/16 of an inch your bow won't group well. You can eyeball centershot by looking at your arrow in relationship to your stabilizer. Most bows like somewhere between 13/16 and 7/8 however individual bow torque will dictate your final setting. Some of the older Mathews seem to like 11/16. How is your cam timing? Are your draw stops hitting at the same time or is it a single cam bow. If any of these things are off your groups will grow as you torque the bow. If your set up is perfect and draw length is dead on then torque is not as big of an issue. Some bows just don't fit some shooters and todays low brace height bows are more critical.

You’ll notice a few things quickly. I’m not a big or strong guy. I don’t have much money to put into equipment.

Draw Length = 27” Shaft Length = 28” Draw Weight = 53# Head Weight = 100gn Arrows = Cabela’s StalkerXtreme 55/70 Bow = Diamond Razor Edge

When I originally purchased the bow, the rest was way off. In fact, it was so close to the frame that it appeared the arrow vanes would contact the cable every shot. No wonder the previous owner said he wasn’t very successful with it. I was pretty diligent about studying centershot and adjusting the position of the rest.

When the archery shop replaced the serving, they told me the cam timing was good.

I’ll try to take a couple photos of my form in a bit.

Sounds like your on the money with your arrow spine. I shoot 53 lbs my self with a 27.5 inch draw. My arrows are 400 spine. You are good in the category. If you could have someone take a picture of yourself at full draw it would help. Get a pic if both sides. Then we can tell if your draw length is correct and how your form looks. It really sounds like you may be stretched out a 1/2 inch or so. If that is the case adjusting the draw module is what you do. However you can shorten your D loop and also shorten your release. Many new archers end up a little long on the draw without ever realizing it. Do some research on doing a modified french tune. I think it will really help you. It will adjust your bows center shot to your form and grip. It is really easy to do. I think it is the most important part of tuning. Also if you want take a picture of your arrow on the rest in relationship to the berger hole. If you are shooting a drop away, make sure the timing is correct. If your rest doesn't fall to quick or to late. Sometimes simply adjusting your cock vane up or out can make a difference. I love setting up bows and would like to help.

I’ll look into French tuning.

Please tell me if you see any glaring problems with my form or draw length.

In the spring, I had reached the point where I was pretty pleased with my accuracy. I felt like I could shoot about as well as I can hold the bow steady. It’s only been recently, when I started trying to hold the bow steadier for longer that I began to get the flyers. I’m really thinking it’s because I started focusing more on the sight pins and less on my form.

My opinion for what it's worth. Looks like you have lots of hand in contact with the grip. Consider medium or high wrist to minimize contact. You'll have to loosen your sling if you do that. And you mentioned focusing on your pins, don't do that. Instead focus on your target and let your pins blur.

I've never understood form or cared for it. Most of the deer or turkeys I've shot with a bow I've had to lean over, crouch down, shoot from a knee, balance on a limb, or flat out wing it just to thread an arrow past a twig. The times I missed or hit a tree limb was usually because I forgot to take off my face mask which alters my point of aim.

"Form" must be maintained throughout all of the awkward positions you may end up in trying to take a shot. The basics of grip, T form and anchor have to be consistent or your arrows don't end up where you want them.

BowhuntKS, I fully agree. As I have been trying to figure out the source of my flyers, I have intentionally made some subtle changes to my form with dramatic effect to the point of impact. It has been eye-opening and really reinforces that once I find what works I need to get locked in.

Been watching this thread evolve. You mentioned that you got the string re-served. Did you start noticing the flyer(s) after that? Depending on the thickness of serving string the shop put on, yout nock fit may have changed. Your nock fit may be too tight or too loose. Also the d loop looks pretty tight up against the nock, may be getting some nock pinch. Do you each of your arrows have a different number on the vane? If you are getting the flyer(s) with the same arrow(s), there might be your problem. I agree with some of the other posts about too much hand in the grip and focus on target not pins. Are all arrows fletched and nocked the same? From the pics you posted, you may be getting some face contact with the arrow fletching. One more thing then I'll be done. How's your peep height? Draw the bow with eyes closed or close your eyes before you find your anchor then open your eyes. If the peep is not there you are likely changing anchor each shot to find your peep. Hope this may help.

This is only my opinion but there is to much palm contact on the grip. I much prefer a slight bend in the elbow instead of locked out elbow and shoulder as well. Are you pulling hard against the stops on the cams? There is a fine line to me between holding against the back wall on the cams and trying to pull the string off the cam. If pulling to hard against the cam that can cause left and right issues. But again that is just my opinion.

Good ideas. The string was re-served right after I purchased the bow. The issue I'm having now appeared more than a year later. The problem also does not seem to follow any one arrow.

I think I really need to research the best position for my grip hand. I'm confident that I'm not actually gripping the bow. However, by the amount I allow my wrist to bend back, I can vary the amount and position of the contact area between the back of the grip and my hand. I don't know whether to match the angle of the grip so that the full length of the grip is resting across my palm, or whether to choose a different angle so that just the upper or lower portion of the grip is contacting my hand.

I'm very comfortable with my peep height. When I first got the bow, I got the rest positioned where I thought it needed to be, then the D-loop. Then worked on a comfortable anchor point and set my peep sight from there. If I draw with my eyes closed, then open them, my peep and forward sight are very near aligned with my eye.

I would have to disagree somewhat on that. Years ago, I snort wheezed a 130" 8 pt into 15 yards and he walked below me from right to left. I was at full draw and had to stay at full draw while I maneuvered the bow from one side of the tree trunk to the other. It was a dead calm misty morning and he was jittery looking for the other bow he thought was there. When I released the arrow, my left arm was bent in a "U" shape and it was everything I could do to keep my peep lined up with the sights. I had not planned to shoot from the left side of the trunk due to the limbs and trunk itself. He only ran 50 yds.

When I grip my bow the only that contacts the riser is between my thumb and forefinger. No other part of the hand touches my riser. I don't have any left and right issues just getting myself to get the pin either up or down into the spot. But that is just me and what works with my setup. Sounds like you r getting some great ideas here though.

Agreed with Boothill, only contact I have is between thumb and index finger. I have read that grip issues are 80 percent of accuracy problems when shooting a bow.

Based on the comments from boothill and BowhuntKS, it sounds like I should tilt my hand forward a touch to decrease contact. with the grip. Now I’m suspecting this is also what was meant by that comment about a medium or high wrist.

As this will move my bow forward just a touch, it seems like I will have to compensate with slightly more bend in my arm or by moving my anchor point forward slightly.

Medium and high wrist are discussed on the internet. Read up on it. So yes it might lengthen your draw slightly, but don't modify other parts of your form to compensate. If the bow now draws short you might need it to be adjusted. Or you could increase the length of your d loop. You have to be comfortable and be able to repeat the process.

Please read the attached link. You are a tad long on your draw length. Just rotate the mod to shorten. Whatever you do, don't increase the length of of your d loop. You are leaning back in the picture, which is an indicator your draw is too long, especially with that left arm locked out so tight. Shooting a bow is like shooting a free throw, just relax. You are stretched out to far.

It’s for all the helpful comments everyone. I’ve gotten rid of the first-shot fliers and I’m back to shooting 5 arrow, 4 inch groups at 30 yards. That’s about as good as I’ve ever done; to be honest, I can’t hold the bow any steadier than that.

I got back to basics: paying more attention to anchor point than sight picture.

I’m comfortable with my grip once again. My wrist is a little higher and I am making less contact with the bow.

I do think I may need to shorten my draw length and will try that later today. With my anchor point where it should be, I really have to push to extend my bow arm enough.

After all this, I think I’ll need a larger peep. Now that I’m not anchoring so far back, I can’t see the outer ring of my forward sight at all.

This was a very good post overall no negative comments and I learned some stuff thanks caliper for all the help I realized last time I bought arrows my spine wasn't Heavey enough

I meant cliper darn phone

I don't use a peep anymore. Just something else on the string that can move at the wrong time. They are not a hunters friend during low light. More negatives than positives when it comes to a peep. I would get that string touching your nose when you are at full draw.

Good deal, sounds like you got it fixed.

Cliper have you ran into sight problems yet just turned 61 and I'm wearing trifocles can't see close or far at dim light I'm a mess. Having a hard time puting it togather from string to sight to target. Maybe it's better because I'm starting to shoot more instinctive

P.S. I'm shooting and hunting without my glasses. Can't shoot with them

I'm turning 61 in a couple weeks. I've worn bifocals for many years. I get separate single vision glasses for shooting out of tree stands.

Well going to the eye doctor Thursday cause I can't see anything close. I think 25 years under the florescent lights at school has caused some it, then there is the computer, and then age. It sucks. That was part of the reason I did away with a peep. I have had a couple of bruisers come in late and I could not see through my peep sight so I did away with it about 10 years ago. I shoot just as good without it. Did not loose any accuracy.

What are you wearing near or far what prescription Scott

This old s#i# sucks I remember when I could aim at a hair now it's rt or lft of the shoulder

My single vision are for distance. Can't hardly read my watch in the stand, but I can live with that.

So I take it you practice with them?

I have not been able to read my watch in years without a pair of 175 readers. Keep my font at 125 % plus the readers.

Yes I practice with my hunting glasses however I seem to be able to shoot off the ground with bifocals ok. The single vision allow me to see deer below me with no problems. I seem to be looking right through the bifocal line when wearing that pair.

Are you shooting without glasses clip

My wife's grandpa used to tell me, "don't get old...you won't like it" he was right.

At least we got some good memories of being young. I lost a lot of friends young that didn't get to get old and beat up lol

I hear that in low light, opening your other eye can help a lot with seeing and aiming at your target. I occasionally practice like this around dusk. I haven’t had a chance to try it when it really matters though.

I actually shoot with both eyes open, even though a peep. See Brick you thought you had problems, we can't see what the heck we're shooting at.

No glasses when shooting.

What are you seeing at impact clip hair or mucsell

My eyes are closed!

Hahaha I love u you're the most honest guy in this site I meet a lot a people like you back in the 70s up around Beverly when huntin was fun

What you see is what you get!

I suppose, as long as you can still distinguish a deer from a Sasquatch, just keep doin’ what works for you.

I saw a Sasquatch hitting a scrape but that is a whole different thread.

I took my bow in to a shop for a larger peep so that I can simultaneously have an appropriate anchor point and a good sight picture. While I was there, They asked about my kisser button. To be honest, I had forgotten I had one. It has always been so far off, that I have completely ignored it. The employee moved it to the correct position for me, free of charge. Between these and my previous changes, I’m shooting better than ever. I just put 5 arrows into a 2.5” group at 30 yards. I don’t have a clue how this compares to other new archers, and frankly I don’t care. It has restored my confidence heading into archery season.

That is good shooting in my book. Now just make your new found form automatic, cause shooting at hair is different. Pick a spot and good luck this season.

Register here to reply to this topic