Grasshopper's Link
The CPW Big Game Season Structure setting process occurs every five years. The CBA board, and our members view BGSS engagement as critical to the future of bowhunting.
I took time out of my archery hunt this year to testify at the September Parks and Wildlife commission meeting in Glenwood Springs. On the agenda was a finalization of the scoping for BGSS topics.
Prior to my testimony the CPW staff originated scoping options specific to the west of I-25 archery elk season were converting some either sex archery elk licenses to bull only, limiting some or all OTC elk hunts, or going to OTC with caps archery elk licensing in existing OTC units. All those options will be on the table moving forward as “in scope”, and potentially impact all of our abilities to acquire elk hunting licenses. There will also be discussion of the archery and muzzleloader overlap. Status quo or no change is also typically always an option for the commission to adopt. Remember, these are just options on the table, and the public outreach portion of BGSS will not start for several months. We are still early, no need to get upset but definitely time for all of us to be aware of coming discussions, engaged, and lodge comment prior to deadlines.
I testified both in writing and in person on behalf of the board requesting the topic of an earlier start date to a west of I-25 archery deer season be added as “in scope” for BGSS topics. The commission response was understanding, open, and gracious. They directed staff to include evaluation of adding an earlier start to archery deer season west of I-25 to the “in scope” BGSS alternatives. The board is not suggesting shifting all archery deer hunters west of I-25 to an earlier start date, but offering some earlier deer season opportunities which could create a quality, high demand deer hunt, and potentially shift some participation from the existing season. Our recent survey suggests support for this concept, and also shows concerns over growth trends in the existing OTC west of I-25 season.
Also in scope for BGSS will be an alternative for a Sept 1 start date for archery elk season. 71.4% of our survey responses support for this shift in dates for the elk season. There was also some discussion at the commission meeting of a late archery elk season, so keep your eyes peeled to see what future proposals show up.
Other BGSS topics will include a citizens petition from the Muzzleloaders asking for OTC licensing for elk and pronghorn, moving the eastern plains deer rifle hunt out of the rut, moose season changes, and more. Check here for more BGSS details: http://cpw.state.co.us/thingstodo/Pages/SeasonStructure.aspx
I also testified on an issue that was escalated to me from the SE region of the sportsman’s roundtable which I serve on. Several years ago CPW introduced an early rifle season in unit 61. Immediately after introduction, it took 19 points to draw this tag. Because the commission 5 or more years ago set a policy to freeze moving any further hunt codes from a 65/35 allocation split to 80/20, this hunt in one of the most sought after elk units in the states allocates 35% of the license quota to nonresidentsinstead of 20%. Furthermore, the hunt code is not a part of the hybrid draw, because the current policy is based on calendar years 2007, 08, & 09. I asked the commission to update and revise their policy on license allocation splits. License allocation between residents and nonresidents is typically discussed in BGSS. It is not currently “in scope” for this BGSS cycle. If you feel license allocation policies should be updated or revised, you should write the Parks and Wildlife commission to lodge your input.
In terms of CBA next steps, I have scheduled a membership meeting for Wednesday October 17th 6 pm at the Fort Collins Archery Association clubhouse to discuss BGSS, and seek member input. You are welcomed and encouraged to attend. I will also be scheduling a October meeting Denver too. I am open to suggestion and invitation from members in other regions for additional CBA meetings, give me a call if you care to talk. Additionally, the CPW BGSS lead has agreed to hold a meeting with CBA members on January 16th in Denver as a part of CPW BGSS public outreach so all CBA members can provide direct input to the process.
Let me know if you have any specific questions I can answer. If you need to join or renew your membership, you can do so at: www.coloradobowhunting.org
Steve Hilde CPW liaison, CBA Board of Directors
I'm so fed up with all the crap that I'm actually glad I may be looking at my last elk bowhunt, very soon ( as in - perhaps next year). Once my points are gone, I probably will be too. My sons - also avid/rabid bowhunters at one time, are finding other/"better" places to chuck their money. Neither of them hunted this year. An unfortunate reality that seems to get lost in all the "better approach" planning. There appears to be far to many "other" distractions with greater appeal. It was a good run. I suspect they will be recalling their "hunting days" long after I'm gone.
I would be all for earlier deer start (more time to chase bucks in velvet) and later elk start. I’d like the elk season to go later like to September 30th. Our elk season is too early right now I think.
I also would like to see the 4th season rifle Deer Season cut. So some big bucks can grow up.
Grasshopper's Link
The link has meeting minutes, and more: http://cpw.state.co.us/learn/Pages/CWD-Advisory-Council.aspx
I have a lot of catching up to do, but from the surface their strategy of killing more older age class bucks seems idiotic.
There are many areas that could stand significant improvement in the season structures in Colorado. After watching this circus for many years and seeing most of the seasons structures get worse, particularly for bow hunting, I have little faith in any improvement.
Steve, THANK YOU for all your hard work!
Grasshopper's Link
My arm-chair quarterback guess is that playing with harvest won't have any real effects on CWD prevalence.
Treeline's Link
Particularly with the following:
1. Overlap and timing of archery and muzzle loader hunting. This is not as big of an issue as all the rifle hunts now overlapping archery. Get all the rifle hunters out first, then figure out a solution for ML. I would be for leaving the timing as is and adding a week of archery earlier or later.
2. Moving the 28-day archery season to start in September. Might be a little better for elk, but totally sucks for deer hunting. Particularly with all the early rifle high country buck tags out there now. Would really suck and limit the time to bowhunt treeline mule deer even further.
3. Exploring options to address the growing numbers of hunters in archery seasons. This one is going to be a mess. Residents will end up getting limited along with Non Residents most likely. I would rather see 100% drawing for Non Residents with caps. Most other western states severely limit NR's, while Colorado residents allow CPW to keep overloading us with NR's. Why?
4. OTC options for ML elk and antelope will cause more crowding issues.
Moose
1. Establishing an optional second rifle season to increase harvest. This makes absolutely no sense. Increase the tag numbers and/or lengthen the season!
2. Allowing moose license holders to hunt any available moose season for their unit(s) during the applicable method of take. The season structure needs revision to eliminate the conflict with archery and muzzle loaders. Start with Archery for 2 weeks, then Muzzle loader and Archery for 2 weeks, then Any weapon for several months. Hell, these are once in a lifetime tags! Hunt till you kill one. Start the season September 1 or even August 15 for that matter and run it till December 31!
Bear:
1. Explore ways to increase bear harvest without affecting crowding such as creating multiple September RIFLE seasons or creating a bear combination licenses. This will increase crowding in archery season (not to mention the numbers of elk killed by a "lead arrow"). Rifle bear hunters are a plague in the archery season and there should be no rifle bear season in archery. For bowhunting, bear licenses should be statewide and OTC rather than unit specific. Archers would kill more bears without having to worry about getting shot by a rifle hunter and having some flexibility for where to actually shoot a bear.
Deer
Need a bullet to add a week earlier in Archery to give us at least a little more time before the gun hunters show up (unless the early rifle tags go away). After the early rifle seasons, those bucks are gone from the high country. Other states start mule deer seasons much earlier and also do not have overlapping rifle seasons.
Year Number of weekends
2020 4
2021 5
2022 4
2023 5
2024 4
2025 4
2026 4
2027 4
2028 5
It is also interesting when I talk with various archery bow elk hunters, especially out of staters' on how many bow hunters now exits and how large the Colorado elk head actually is. Many believe that the elk head is over 300,000 (320,000) as advertised in the early 2000s. We now know that the Long Term Objective of the CPW is 265,000 elk and in most cases (DAU), that objective has been met. So we have 50,000 less elk in Colorado than 18 years ago. And we now know that 48,000 archery elk licenses (not sure if this includes and extra Class B cow elk licenses) are purchased by bow hunters.
I will not hunt elk in August again
I also agree with many that say bulls are easier to kill earlier before they get with a bunch of wary cows.
To me, ML inour sept season is way more damaging than bear hunters, HC deer hunts, sheep goat etc.
ML’s absolutely change the mood of the elk. Like anything we are more focused on what affects “ME”
A guy should be able to make the most out of it.
Hell, make it 4 or 5 months long! There’s not much pressure due to the low tag numbers, but it doesn’t take much to make it tougher for killing one with a bow.
Having the same opening day for archery and muzzle loader stinks.
That said, specifically for elk and deer the CPW will most likely continue to support the maximum number of weekends included in the Archery deer and elk season regardless of start date and regardless of the disposition of user input and or requests for changes ( I hope I am wrong ). With a large portion of the financial benefit coming from nonresident license sales, I fully see the CPW continuing to support and motivate nonresident participation and maximum number of weekend and weekend start dates are a big part of this approach.
There have been split deer and elk seasons in the past, I see no reason this approach cannot be re investigated. Meaning start deer season the last week of August to allow the early high-country hunts to occur. Then having archery elk start September 1st each year for 30 days regardless of what day September 1st falls on. This would be my preference if any changes were made.
Specific to muzzle loader season. My preference would be this be a separate season; however, I analogize this to pulling bricks out of a foundation. Most likely archery season would suffer.
Bear season should match this same season structure. To start archery bear season later then archery elk and or deer makes no sense. If the true intention is to increase bear harvest, then this needs to be reviewed. I am sure many hunters passed on bears this year during elk season while waiting for the September 2nd start date and had long sense left the field prior to the bear season close.
Bull moose licenses should be changed to “season choice” tags allowing the recipients the maximum time to fill their tag. With this being a once in a lifetime license there should be every opportunity for the recipient to fill their tag. In addition, archery and muzzle loader seasons should never start on the same date. This absolutely needs to be reviewed and implemented.
Finally, archery pronghorn starts on August 15 and ends on September 20th every year. This is a proven season structure. The only difference is the financial impact / motivation.
Thank you CBA for representing ALL Bowhunters throughout this process. Thank you Steve for the time you have invested.
Lifer here
Steve, you're my hero. Thanks for all you do!
Moose: Moose is not a once-in-a-lifetime hunt. Many hunters have hunted and taken more than one. It's a once-in-a-lifetime bull kill. Never the less, it's a very limited opportunity. As such, there should be NO non-resident licenses.
There is absolutely no need to lengthen any moose season. Success rates are already near 100% for moose. Especially for the early season, moose are very predictable and relatively easy to pattern. No matter the length of the season, you can scout for months before hand, and can be pretty confident on finding them once the season starts.
Perhaps it should be a true once-in-a-lifetime OPPORTUNITY for any moose. This would remove at least some from the the application pool and allow those who haven't drawn a tag, a greater chance to hunt.
If there has to be an overlap with archery and ML, it should be at the end of the seasons, NOT the beginning.
Some (many?) of our moose habitats now open for moose hunting are in very popular areas used by the non-hunting public. We have already seen this conflict, notably at Brainard Lake, with additional restrictions on hunters. I expect more of the same in other areas. We should be more forceful in protecting our recreational opportunities. Most other outdoor activities that may be in conflict are not restricted to a very short time period, as is hunting. That should be taken into account when these conflicts come up. It should also be noted that it's NOT hunters who have a problem with others' activities. If other outdoor enthusiasts don't want to see us hunt, THEY should be restricted.
Bear: We need to have greater bear hunting opportunity. Ideally, we need to be able to bait them - if not in the spring, then in the fall. Bear tags should also be good state wide and rifle hunting should be removed from archery season.
Elk: I've long been a proponent for a September 1 start date instead of a weekend start. However, in the past our members have not been in favor of that. This is the first poll where there is a majority for it. Since it appears that the CPW has some interest also, we should jump on it.
Never once did was there an issue with other bear hunters, only lots of archery elk hunters
Some of you better get used to others hunting different species in your sandbox
Hence my statement that archery hunting quality is never going to get better. We can only expect more crowding, smaller and fewer areas to hunt, and more pressured animals. If your idea of quality is learning to deal with these issues, you'll be right at home. Like everyone who hunts, I have learned to adapt over the years with these issues, BUT I sure don't enjoy it as much as 20 - 30 years ago.
I would add to elk in my previous post, that I would welcome ALL limited access if they managed it for quality (fewer hunters) than quantity. I would rather have a more enjoyable hunt every few years than more crowded hunts every year. But I would also guess that I'm in the minority on that.
Just curious cnelk, how many bears did you have an opportunity or close call to kill? My wife also had a bear tag for her moose area. We never saw one bear nor any bear sign, even after checking 3 different moose gut piles. Meanwhile, they're running all over our property this year due to a good plum crop. Something that is unpredictable and infrequent.
I have finalized dates and times for 3 meetings, all are invited to attend. The intent is to explain what I know based on attending commission meetings and one on one discussions with staff and commissioners, and then take input to share with the board. Ultimately, the board will vote on what the CBA supports based on survey, input, discussion of facts and speculation on likelihood of adoption.
Meetings are as follows: October 16th , 6:30pm Fort Collins Archery Association Clubhouse CBA Big Game Season Structure Update meeting call 970-222-2492 for more info
October 24th 6:30pm, 6060 Broadway, Hunter Ed building, Denver CBA Member meeting, Big Game Season Structure Update meeting call 970-222-2492 for more info
January 16th 6:30pm, 6060 Broadway, Hunter Ed building, Denver Joint CPW & CBA Public outreach session for BGSS input call 970-222-2492 for more info
I have invited both Chairman Howard, and commissioner Mcdaniels to the meetings, but have no confirmation they will attend.
Hoping for a good turnout of bowhunters at these meetings, it is always good to see you if you can make it
I'm with you, Ziek!
I saw lots of bear sign and saw one about to cross the road in front of me. Others saw plenty of them in the area. But the 'bear repellent tag' did its job at the 9000' areas.
I also hunted opening of ML weekend. There wasnt ANYONE toting a ML around, so I still dont see the hubbub of removing that season from archery. And I hunt a large area of 100+ sq miles.
It is also quite apparent that many 'look thru a straw hole' when it comes to hunting. I like archery hunting as much as the next guy, but I also have more rifles, shotguns and MLs than I do bows.
This is what the CPW has to balance - ALL users. Not just a specific group that wants this or that.
Elk going to 'All Draw' = aint gonna happen
I dont enjoy many things I did 20-30 years ago either, and not just limited to hunting. But Ive adapted. That's called progression.
One complaint we frequently hear is that archery season is so long. But in reality, rifle hunters have a much longer period to hunt, considering all species. They can hunt bear all September, pronghorn in October, deer in September, October or November, and elk in October, November or December. They can space out their hunts to concentrate on one species at a time. For species that are OTC, or relatively easy to draw, archery hunters have only September, and a bit of August.
Those 10 units have plenty of archery deer and elk opportunities during the same time.
All the CPW has to do is create more seasons like that. Easy Peasy.
If the CPWs desire is to increase bear hunting participation, extend the season - start it Aug 15 when bears are active during berry season, and have it run thru Sept 30.
As to the those units, cnelk, I also noticed they can continued to be used during rifle hunts for those with a RIFLE tag in at least one concurrent unit. AND they can bear hunt for an extended period of time. Sorry, but I don't want to hunt elk or deer during rifle season for additional opportunity to bear hunt. Where's the equivalent opportunity for archery hunters?
Zeik you missed that the rifle hunters can hunt elk in September as well. There are several September elk rifle tags - on top of all the other rifle and muzzle loader tags they have dropped into the season formerly known as archery.
Muzzle loader hunters in the field with archers for deer/elk - leave em alone, they’ve never hurt my hunts. If anything help them by giving them time in the field when the rut is more active. That’s a pretty tough method of take too.
Limiting the number of out of state hunters in the field - absolutely, the little bit of “quality” hunting land that is still available to hunt (not leased/outfitted) has shrunk down to almost nothing. We do know that this will not be considered though.
Keep fighting team.
When they opened an additional elk rifle hunt in October, they could have solved two problems instead by making that season liberal for ML and getting them out of archery season. ML were in favor, and bow hunters were in favor and it wold have met any "management" objectives.
Management objectives are often short term and variable. Additional rifle hunting once instituted NEVER goes away.
Why would they change anything for the better now? so many on here took the bait and now they have free reign to do whatever they want
The Archery and ml seasons were never meant to be management tools. They were considered "recreational" seasons. Maybe they are considered management tools now. With the increasing number of hunters in both seasons there must be a management impact.
When addressing crowding in September it's hard not to consider the 800# Gorilla in the room. Specifically, the ever evolving effectiveness of archery and ML equipment!!!!
Exactly. Strange how since Bowhunters in Colorado have over doubled in the past 20 years, and the success rates have hardly wiggled.
That’s why rifle seasons are an important tool.
Straw hole effect is alive and well.
Has this perceived increased in "effectiveness" actually been observed by a change in success rates? My understanding is that the rates really haven't changed and therefore this increased "effectiveness" is a myth.
All manners of take
Bulls- 21,330 Cows-15,564 Calfs- 1661 Total- 38,555 Success % 17% #of hunters- 223,269
All rifle seasons Bulls-16,038 Cows- 13,503 Calfs- 1441 Total- 30,986 Success 19% #of hunters-163,781
ML season Bulls=1351 Cows-623 Calfs-74 total-2054 Success-18% #of hunters 11,696
Archery Bulls 3935 Cows-1430 Calfs 142 total-5507 success 12% #of hunters-47,727
% of total elk taken by bowhunters ==18%
% of total bow hunters to total hunters of elk= 21%
Archery Bulls 18%
Cows 9%
Calfs 9%
% of total elk taken= 18% of total
There are now more bow hunters, twice a many as 25 years ago and also less elk than 20 years ago. The numbers of elk taken by bow hunters, even with an increase in participation has not increased much and the success % may even be a couple of points below the level of the early 2000s when the elk herd was nearly 320,000, now close to 265,000. A reduction of over 55,000 elk in the past 20 years statewide.
Are bow hunters part of the management of elk in Colorado???
My remark was directed much further back in time. Remember, I stated that the seasons both ml and archery were meant to be recreational and not a management tools. Paul's stats tell the story of success ratios after we arrived at pretty much the end of the equipment evolution for both types of take.
While I addressed the management tool aspects, the gorilla of which I spoke is regarding the increased and increasing rates of participation and the overcrowding issue.
When the bow/ml seasons were created the equipment was less high tech with fewer people wishing to engage with it. That's a major source of crowding. The growth of bow/ml hunting has increased a lot throughout the country and it's no surprise that so many come to Colorado.
I'm not saying "we gotta do something" but rather that a clear historical perspective helps us understand the present and the future. Hunter numbers in our bow seasons are going to continue to escalate. Probably ml hunters too.
As far as the management perspective goes, Paul's stats come from CPW so they will decide what they mean and what to do.
It costs a lot of money to manage wildlife in Colorado so if we want less crowding we will probably have to accept limited NR tags along with license cost increases or limited archery licences across the board like deer tags.
I didn't mean for the discussion to take a detour. Just adding perspective.
The Flat Top units use to be OTC and that changed to Limited draw for bow hunters. Units 54, 55, and 551 use to be OTC but that changed to Limited draw for bow hunters as the CPW staff was convinced (studies) that too many bow hunters and yes, the MLs also, were pushing elk onto private properties or into area where rifle hunters could not successfully reduce their numbers for management purposes.
Where this all goes in the near future, is any one's guess but I bet the CPW has some strong convictions on how to make changes during the up and coming BGSS with or without public input.
my best, Paul
So while we early season hunters may not have much impact from a harvest perspective, many in the CPW are convinced we are impacting the management goals in other ways. Plus, as rifle elk hunting becomes more difficult for aging hunters, more will drop out. (I just read a USFWS report that said hunters overall are decreasing at a rate of roughly 3% a year. That's real money).
Elk revenue is the goose laying the golden eggs. So unless an increase in bowhunters compensates for a projected future decrease in rifle hunters, its possible that blame fingers will be pointed at us early season hunters, whether valid or not.
I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying CPW is worried about revenue. Obviously if they can sell every tag no matter what then there is no revenue concern.
Those are huge "ifs". There doesn't seem to be any data remotely indicating that revenue drop will happen. Demand for tags is increasing, not decreasing. Just look at the threads on this and other forum and others of people frustrated by point creep. The increasing point creep is caused by increasing tag demand. We all know CPW doesn't care about point creep (no one said they did) but it is a real issue and big concern for a lot of hunters because it is real and is happening (unlike revenue drop).
But if you insist that the demand for tags is going to drop then that's great because it's impossible to have point creep if the demand for tags drops as dramatically as you indicate. It's good to hear that we don't need to worry about point creep anymore.
Total elk hunters: 2005 = 146,521 all manners of take. That number steadily decrease by 5,000-8,000 hunters per year from 2005 to 2011 (9/11) when only 211,392 elk hunters came to Colorado. Since 2012, ie, 215,392 hunters the number has increase by 1,000 to 2,000 per year to the year 2016 where 223,745 hunted elk by all methods. The loss of 23,000 elk hunter over the 10 year period is substantial. What the future of total elk hunters in Colorado is unknown but the trend seem to have flattened out (less bow hunter numbers) as the elk head decreases, less cow elk licenses, and the cost of licenses has increased and success percentages has also decreased.
Rifle elk hunters, from 2005 to 2016. In 2005 there were 197, 089 rifle elk hunters. That number decreased to 159,000 in 2011 but has remained somewhat steady around 161,000 to 163,598-- in the year 2016. A decrease of 33,000 rifle elk hunters over the 10 year period.
Bow hunters: in the year 2005 there were 35, 628 bow elk hunters. That number has steady increased to 41, 967 (year 2013) and then to 47, 721 in the year of 2016. An increase of 12,000 bow hunters since 2005. I remember when I came to Colorado as a non resident in 1998, there were approx, 20,000 bow hunters then.
Over all, less elk hunters, Less rifle hunters, and more bow hunters. Rifle hunter numbers seems to have leveled off around 163,000 hunters. Bow hunters have increase most every year. Will bow hunter numbers continue to increase or will the demand decrease? Will demand for rifle elk license remain the same and decrease?
It seems that there are still hunters Nation Wide, that still have a dream to hunt elk out West and in Colorado regardless of decreasing elk numbers, decreasing success percentages, increase cost of licenses, and increased in cost of the over all hunt.
Treeline's Link
Seems like they are making more money every year.
They are still #1 in hunting license revenue and more than double any two western states.
Unfortunately, that revenue tends not to go toward improving hunting (access, game populations, game age class, limiting non residents, etc) but rather toward expanding the bureaucracy. The bureaucracy needs to be reduced and the goals realigned to improve services for their primary customers - hunters.
Certainly appears, from the total hunting licenses sold each year, that hunter numbers are increasing.
Smoke and mirrors (BS) by CPW to suck more money out of our pockets?
The big increase in elk hunters has been contributed to the increase in Bow Hunters. The year, 2005 there were 35,700 bow hunters hunting elk. That has increased to nearly 48,000 last year. If is was not for the increase in elk bow hunters, total hunter numbers would be flat.
Less hunters or more hunters buying licenses out of state?
The data does not seem to indicate that. There has to be someone that could pull that data down and make some very interesting points from it.
One that is very interesting is that Colorado brings in such a high revenue versus the number of hunters. Heck CPW blows away states that sell 3 times or more the total number of licenses! Impressive. So why keep jacking up the fees?