APR's and Technology
Michigan
Over on the MBH Facebook page, there is a pretty raging debate regarding LEGISLATED APR's (not self imposed APR's). I'm not looking to further that debate here, but I am curious about something. It is my UNSCIENTIFIC observation that LEGISLATED APR advocates trend toward "high tech", i.e. well appointed compounds and crossbows. Those of us opposed to LEGISLATED APR's seem to be either traditional bowhunters, or "basic" compound hunters. This makes sense to me...high tech hunters are trying to increase their hunting satisfaction by limiting what animals they shoot. Low tech hunters already have, by limiting our effective kill range. My personal opinion...I probably won't shoot a spike or a forkhorn, but don't tell me I can't.
APR's are just one more restriction that detracts from the common persons participation in hunting.
Pretty quiet, not many real bowhunters left in Michigan anymore. Most are high tech horn seekers with scoped equipment for themselves and or their family members. Closet supporters of ultra modern scoped crossbows, rather than bow hunting.
Sounds like a reasonable point of view.
Regardless of your weapon on choice, hunters are always going to be split on APRs just like hunters are split on most every topic hunting related. We are the most divided group of sportsmen without question.
Some people love the challenge of shooting only older bucks and those people would be in favor of APRs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Some people are meat eaters and are happy with any buck. Those people don't want to be told what they can shoot. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. People hunt for different reasons,
I'm guessing there are traditional bow hunters falling on both sides of the fence. There for sure are compound hunters who fall on both sides of the fence. I personally pass on young bucks but would take one if I wanted to. I don't buy a combo tag. I encourage my son to shoot any buck. I've killed zero bucks on my land in the 4 years of ownership. My son has killed 4 and none are anywhere close to trophies via measurements. They are all trophies to us even as compound shooters.
MI does it well with the combo tag concept or the any buck tag. Of course those are not applicable in the DMUs with forced APRs.
I would guess that high tech ends up playing a big role. Guys who can reach out to 40+ yards on average have more choices than those who want their shots from 15 and in. Also, I'm guessing that the majority of the traditional crowd are older and were never part of the trophy crowd which would not be true with compound shooters on average. Trad hunting is far more difficult and any kill is really an accomplishment.
I don’t see guys over on the Leatherwall talking about holding out for a “shooter” buck much..... And I see a lot of smaller bucks celebrated there. Any deer is a trophy.... and as hard as it is to kill one with a recurve or longbow.... Trad guys get that.
I hunt with a compound..... but own and shoot recurves. I will shoot any legal deer... unless it is too small in body size to get much meat from. I hate APRs and I hate that I cannot shoot a doe during bow season on my own property..... because of the invasion of the technology of scoped crossbows being allowed in bow season.
One more thing. Cut back to one buck only in all seasons in Michigan. Then the guys who care about horn porn will be forced to pass on bucks.
BB....instead of cutting back to one buck, I'd rather see the DNR split the firearms season into two seasons (1st season and 2nd season) and go to a draw. The idea is to reduce the massive hunting pressure the first week (ie...spread it out) and maybe a few more bucks will survive the hunting season and the "orange army" on-slot will be a thing of the past.
JL, I can see your point as a bowhunter, but if I was a gun hunter only, I'd really argue that. There are far more gun hunters than bowhunters and there is no reason they should be "punished". Gun hunting is really the tool the MDNR uses to control the herd. It has worked fine for decades and continues to work. There are many family and friend traditions in the gun hunting camps and they deserve to maintain that. There is no shortage of deer in MI and no biological reason to split the season. We as bowhunters already get a very long season and the gun hunters deserve their time as it is IMHO. Loads of bucks survive the gun season annually.
Good point Roger, I agree. Wont change the bunch you mentioned though. I hunt as hard as I can for my age and enjoy it for what it is.
Surprised various DNR's haven't allowed night hunting for deer, with the tired argument it would help license sales and certain groups of hunters etc.
There is very little conservation minded hunters out there anymore.
"It is my UNSCIENTIFIC observation that LEGISLATED APR advocates trend toward "high tech", i.e. well appointed compounds and crossbows. Those of us opposed to LEGISLATED APR's seem to be either traditional bowhunters, or "basic" compound hunters."
Roger:
For the most part, I would agree with your theory.
KPC
Happy....the proposal I submitted to the DNR a while back to address you concern about the hunting camps was to use a party system. That will keep all the camps together for the respective season. The DNR uses all methods for deer control with the first week of firearms being when the majority of the harvest takes place. I bow hunt, gun hunt and ML hunt so which season I get something is not so much a concern. That said....on public land it is a zoo in my area. I did not gun hunt at all on public land this year....most of my early bow and all of my firearms hunting was on private. I'm sitting with the wife on public so she can fill her doe tag. In three sits at two different places she has only seen one deer.
I wouldn't say gun hunters are being punished. The idea is not to manage the deer so much but to manage the mass influx of hunters who shoot the deer. By spreading out the hunters it will spread out the harvest and make for a better experience for everyone. If ya hunt public land....you can definitely appreciate that. This isn't a new idea of course. Quite a few states manage some of the hunters/harvest that way and they do quite well. Iowa and Kansas come to mine.
this APR argument is getting very tiresome
it's unavoidable and everywhere
I agree with Rodger on this .
There is a large ad, in the November Woods and Water, showing the majority wants it, in the thumb.............
A large ad....... paid for by QDMA no doubt........... I have news for QDMA in Michigan....... the DNR is about to declare war on deer to drastically reduce their numbers...... antler points be damned........ due to CWD.
Big Bear I think your are correct on that........
Where I live in NWL we have had the 3/4 Aprs for 5years now. The herd has drastically declined in numbers wich is sad. I haven't seen any plus to this, in fact more guy's are dropping out because of it.
Burly....I too live in the NW12 and you are spot on. I have tracked the deer vids I've got since about 2011 and on public land where I hunt there is without doubt a decline in overall deer numbers and bigger buck numbers in the areas I'm at. Last year I had decent doe numbers and poor to fair buck numbers with those mostly smaller ones. I had a nice 8pt that was tall that I would like to have gotten. The year before that I was getting good doe numbers and some decent buck vids. This year on public land has been the worst for doe numbers and total buck numbers since APR implementation. I prospected some new areas in August and Sept and nothing to speak of on cam. I still have 4 cams out taking vids on public land as we speak. So far since October 1st with 4 cams working, I have three small 8pt's on vid. One was a regular and the others were passing thru....never got more than one vid of them. I have one 7pt that just showed up and six 6pts with three of those passing thru. The wife went out 5 times and couldn't fill a doe (or buck) tag. She seen one doe the first day by herself and I sat with her the other 4 times...no deer sightings. Prior to APR's and I think for the first year I was getting some nice 8's and a couple of 10's on vid. In my area it might be time to consider dropping the doe tag numbers and ideally getting rid of APR's......ie...go back to pre-APR doe tag numbers and regs. Private land in Osceola County is much better for nice bucks. Does are a little scarcer though but when you're only filming the same area of land that might be expected. With 9000 private land doe tags this year it will look lean down there for a while as the bio is reducing the deer numbers. The bio said the deer there are bigger there due to the ag and the soil is better for the deer.....not so much in GT County.
JL:
That has been my experience in the NW12 also. The first couple years after APRs were passed, we saw more older bucks, but fewer deer over all. Now we are seeing substantially less deer overall, including bucks of all ages.
This doesn't surprise me though, as I think as far as the DNR is concerned, it is actually accomplishing what they set out to do. Let me explain:
When you take younger bucks off the table, you increase the pressure on the does by those hunters who are just looking to fill a tag for meat. In the past, many bow hunters that wanted to fill their freezer left the does alone and killed a younger buck. Granted, this prevented that particular buck from getting older, but it only took one deer out of the future herd equation. By shifting that pressure to a doe, you eliminate her and all her future offspring, which may be 6-8 deer over her lifetime.
So in reality if you look at it over a 5 year period, if you shoot one buck, you eliminate one deer from the herd. If you shoot one doe, you eliminate 6-8 deer from the herd.
And it's not just bow hunters. In my county alone, they issued so many antlerless permits that there were still some left to be purchased over the counter well into the firearm season. In my county alone, they issued close to 5000 antlerless permits between private and public land.
Combine plentiful antlerless permits with the fact that every archery tag sold in MI, combo or single, can be used to shoot a doe and you have the makings of what we are experiencing now.
The DNR said from the beginning that they wanted to put more pressure on the antlerless segment of the deer herd and they have been successful.
If you happen to hunt great deer habitat, you are probably not going to notice much difference because whatever deer are left will naturally gravitate to the best habitat. If you happen hunt marginal habitat, both private or public, you can literally experience a deer wasteland. I never wanted to be a farmer but for many in northern MI, unless we are willing to become one, or happen to hunt an area with an abundant natural food source, we better get used to the new reality.
Now with the threat of CWD spreading state wide, I suspect it is going to get even worse.
Hang on, it's probably going to be a bumpy ride for deer hunters in MI.
KPC
Kevin....the hunting pressure has shifted to the 3pt+ pool. That is what those lucky folks who happen to harvest a buck are filling their tags with vs across all point (age) classes as it use to be. As you know...some of the DNR bio's said the herd did not have a problem pre-APR's. I mentioned this before but I think with baiting eliminated starting next year you will see more hunters get impatient and switch from still/stand/blind hunting to driving the deer. I think that will create a conflict with those that want to sit tight in an undisturbed location. If the deer drives do become more popular (or necessary) during firearms season, I'll speculate that will make things harder for the ML and late bow season folks as the deer will go nocturnal or hold tight and not move much. I can see some hunter complaints and continued dissatisfaction with the deer herd and DNR mngt start to increase.
JL:
It's been my experience that "hunter complaints" are just part of the game, but I believe we are now, and will continue to experience the (un)intended consequences of what on the surface might seem like a good idea, but in practice might not be as good as expected...especially when the desired outcome might be based on unrealistic expectations.
A recent study (see link) has shown:
"Average antlerless harvest in the NW12 increased 13 percent in the three seasons following APR implementation compared to a 16 percent decline in the surrounding counties that were not subject to an APR.
There were always two parts of the APR equation (decreased pressure on young bucks and increased pressure on antlerless deer), and that is by design.
Unfortunately, a lot of people might have only considered the less pressure on young buck element.
KPC
Kevin Iagree with your thought on this as well. Wexford county ( at least by me) sucks for deer numbers. I have a few buddy's that live west of me that are having a good year, but they have prime private land along the Big river that has always had good hunting. Public land out my way is a disaster.
Kevin....those increases in doe harvest would be related to the increase in doe tags. I had a bio tell me it was to offset the expected decline in buck harvest and to help soften criticism from the APR critics. I also think the unlimited, uncontrolled hunter numbers doesn't help either. Of course so goes the does....so goes the bucks in the pipeline.
Burly.....IMO if you have a fair amount of decent private land to hunt you may not feel the pinch the public land hunters feel. For a couple-three years I had some private land in GT County that was decent and held some nice deer during the spring and summer. I was the only one hunting it. The owner sold the property so I got the boot. Two years ago I finally accepted an invite to hunt some other private land in Osceola off of M-115. It's like night and day between that and public. I know it's not reflective of what other hunters might experience on both private and public but I think it's a good thing to get a taste of both. Did you see alot of folks camped out on public land this year?
Yep, there are quite a few hunters in my area. Several camps pop up during bow season and some camps come back for gun opener. Seems to be crowded around here for the most part.
The point I was trying to make John, is that whether it is due to more antlerless tags, more bow hunters filling their tags with does, or a combination of both, the result was intentional and expected.
There was always two edges to the APR sword (more bucks live and more does die), and combined they result in a much smaller deer herd.
KPC
Burly....yup...had some camped out in areas I was at too.
Kevin.....I would agree more does getting shot eventually begins the decline in deer numbers. The extra doe tags was intentional in the NW12 to appease the hunters because the DNR expected a decline in the buck harvest. I don't know the history behind the doe-bow option. Another possibility to consider for this year's herd numbers, or possible lack of, was the toll last year's winter took on the herd.
I posted on the MBH thread until a ding dong on there kept spewing his garbage so I quit posting and cancelled the MBH facebook site BUT. My observation over the last 4 years or so is that we have been seeing more deer, bucks and does and seeing larger bucks. It is not scientific, it is just a fact. Can't help it is what it is. You can say that seeing more does has nothing to do with APR's if you want and you can say that we are seeing more bucks has nothing to do with APR's but we just are. I expressed my thoughts to Chad Stewart (no relation) by phone and told him what I just wrote and thought that in my area, where I hunt, it has improved our hunting.
This is coming from a primitive archer that makes is own bows (self bows),own arrows and uses stone points that I knap. I don't use or own a crossbow and don't use the compound that I own.
I know many are upset over the APR's but unless you make contact with the DNR either by phone, in person or by letter you really have no complaint. Now with all the above being written they can do away with the APR's tomorrow and I am fine with that also. You have to be upset with the state as they are the ones that made the change in the law not the hunters that approve of the APR's.
I disagree with your last sentence Jon. The NRC makes the laws. They often times ignore the recommendations of their deer biologists and take a vote from hunters on what the laws should be..... much like what is happening in the thumb right now; or in the U.P. Not allowing does to be shot in bow season..... against the recommendation of the biologist. Yes,,, I have talked to her.
Jon, do you hunt on private land, public land or both?
We hunt both. Most if not all the deer come off around 30,000 acres of public land that adjoins mine. We get loads of public land hunters coming in and hunting our area so the the hunting of public land is not exclusive to my family. Our property is pass thru land from the farmers fields to the bedding areas. Big Bear then it is the NRC that people should be mad at not hunters like me and others that like the APR's. AGAIN, they could change it tomorrow and I would care one way or the other AND I did not fill out a questioniare on this issue. When the DNR sends me those things I toss them.
I know it is tough in the UP. My dad in Crystal Falls for 28 years. He said many times if a hunter moves to the UP to hunt he moved there for the wrong reason. But when I did hunt there I would see deer most times.
Oh believe me,,, I am more than mad at the NRC. They have ignored the recommendations of their paid deer biologists and kissed the back side of the gun hunters in the U.P. Whitetails Association..... and made it illegal for me to shoot a doe on my property in the UP and across most of the UP....... for the last several years. I’m more than sick and tired of the NRC and their politics.......
