Habitat Improvement guys?
Kansas
I've read quite a few posts recently where people are mentioning their land habitat improvements. I frequent national forums for habitat improvements quite a bit but don't see a lot of participation from KS people. Who out there works the land and what are ya doing?
We have run fence in the middle of area along side existing fence about 40 yards wide and a few hundred yards long. Then we just let nature take its course. Watching the grass and volunteer trees and shrubs come up is awesome. Bottom line is you have to have bedding areas, cover, places to hide. And then dont hunt those spots. Those are sanctuaries
I've planted over 2,000 trees over the years and the sawtooths have by far done the best which is not surprising.They are now bearing and the doe groups have blossomed
I put a decoy out every 100-200yds...just to keep the doe's around. Unfortunately the bucks only visit them at night?
Kidding!
We had our CRP disc'd a couple years ago rather than burning and it came back like gangbusters...can hardly see over it at 6'4". I've also done a little hinge-cutting but probably not enough to really make an impact.
My biggest "fail" project was when I dug a 10" trench from the creek, about 200yds to a water tank. We laid PVC and put the tank up on a stand about 6' off the ground. I could run a pump in the creek and fill the tank.
From there I ran two elaborate sets of drip lines. One to an underground grid that was to be a food plot(turnips/radishes), and the other a long line to a series of sandplum & choke cherry seedlings.
I had tilled the food plot and got everything layed out and planted. Caged all of the seedlings as well. Gave it a good soaking and then put a battery powered timer on the drip system.
Came back two weeks later and a badger had torn every bit of the drip line up in both areas...over 300'...chewed into pieces.
In my opinion, there's plenty of natural habitat as long as the farmers quit taking out hedgerows, and are smart enough to leave a little buffer zone along them. The majority of the farms I hunt do this and it works.
Lol Sit... I deserve that! :)
5.5plus, native is always going to be good! I have 50 acres that hasn't had a cow on it in 3yrs. It's starting to get tall and thick. I wanted to do a fall burn in it this year to promote forbs but never had time while conditions were right.
Genesis - That's a lot of trees. I have lots of Sawtooth also. I think they are a nice supplement to native trees but the drop pretty early to me. What else have you planted? I've been planting crabs, apples, pears, jujube, che, persimmon, SWO, and Concordia oak also. I'm considering ordering mulberry seed this winter as they are great for birds and deer love to browse their leaves. I also stump cut a lot of trees to provide leaf and browse.
Sit - That is one heck of a letdown to build all that just to have a critter rip it apart. That has been my experience also... make plans and do the work just for nature to wave it's finger and say "NO".
We plant quite a few dwarf chinkapin oaks each year, we have the best survival rate with them by far. As soon as we get our house paid off, we're going to take some more of our crop ground and turn it to bedding habitat, not a whole lot, prolly four acres or so. I'm excited to take ground that requires very little prep work and plant all kinds of goodies with shrubs and trees. Right now our main 80 has 34 acres of crop ground, about 2 acres of food plots and the rest is creek bottom and cover. Of that cover 8 acres of it is old hay meadows along the creek bottom that are difficult to access that have been allowed to "go wild" since we purchased the farm in 2013. About 10 acres of that rarely gets accessed, so when my buck died in the middle of it, I got to see what it looks like in there during season, I was amazed at the deer sign. Oh yeah, in the biggest meadow we planted 25 hybrid oaks the spring of 2014; thirteen of them are going strong, I'll have to remove the tree tubes sometime the next couple of years. Unfortunately, I used t posts to anchor the tubes, I'm not sure about trying to pull those out at that time for fear of damaging roots, they prolly won't even come out. One day, way down the line, somebody is going to destroy a chain trying to cut one of those down. :)
I started on habitat in 2010. Since then have planted around 3600 trees/shrubs. Most has gone into a shelterbelt and riparian buffer. About half of the shelterbelt is along the road to provide a screen. The cedars should provide a nice screen in another 4 or 5 years. The riparian buffer is rather secluded containing a rows of NWSG, sumac, American plum and three rows of Oaks. I have planted about 400 oak trees. The bur's have done the best by far. Those that were tubed are 10-12' tall now. Those that weren't are not much taller than when planted. I planted 75 sawtooth oaks in four different places. The only ones that have done well are in an area that floods occasionally. It is a constant war against the thorny locusts. Probably wont win that one but wont give up either. I like to cut and spray the locusts, hinge cut elm in bedding areas. Cattle are run in the creek pasture until June 15, then pulled to let cover grow back. In the process of trimming back the hedgerows (3/4 mile)to put in new fence, then will let them grow back for cover. Fenced off about 10 acres of the creek pasture to permanently exclude cows and provide more cover. Also spray the edges with Plateau to keep brome/fescue at bay and release NWSG. Hedge trees are cut for posts and the stumps allowed to sprout and grow. Finally, I just ordered 300 more ERC to thicken up/screen the bedding areas. Those will be planted in March. I have thought about planting the NWSG buffer strips around my fields but am surrounded by walk-in hunting and am afraid it will just encourage people to jump the fence more than they do already...and may be real hard on the quail.
Well lets see. Restored 10 acres of brome fescue to native grass. Currently removing trees from the road to my pond to promote bobwhite quail. I’ve planted paw paw, persimmon, swamp white oak, burr oak, pin oak, Nuttall oak, swamp chestnut oak, sawtooth oak, shumard oak (my favorite), some oak hybrids, and deer pear. For quail I’ve planted American plum, service berry, fragrant sumac, golden currant, choke cherry, sandhill plums, and probably some other I am forgetting. I’ve got buffalo berry and button bush coming for this spring. Removing cedar and rotational burning parts of my small acreage. Ill be removing a lot more hedge and honey locust. I’ve tried food plots but don’t have much utilization. I want quail back so that’s what I mainly plant food plots for but I’ll also do a couple 1/4 acre spots for the deer.
Gobbler, good stuff. The shumard oaks I have planted have not faired nearly as well as the bur oaks. The shumard's must grow a lot better wher you are. Also planted a lot of elderberry with no success. What part of Kansas are you in? I am in northcentral. Thanks.
I'm sorry to hear I'm not the only one who fights locust. It's a never ending battle.
East central. The swamp whites grow like weeds. Of the 25 bur I planted when I bought this place the first 2 just cleared 4' tubes this year.
Planted most of the oaks in bean ground. The burs were peaking out 5’ tubes first year. Shumard about half that and lost about 30 percent. Kind of hate to kill the locusts because the deer eat the pods like licorice and squirrels eat a lot also. But locusts sure take over.
Planted CRP, hinge cut probably close to a thousand trees over the years, waste my money on food plots every year, and I can’t even begin to count the trees I’ve planted over the years or the thousands of gallons of water I’ve hauled to them. Sawtooths, red and white oaks, pecans, tons of walnuts, and a few chestnuts. A lot of fruit trees as well. Tubed and caged all of them.
My biggest project was an old rock quarry we purchased... literally 100 acres of bedding and a huge 8 acre pond with several quarry pits. I bulldozed about 3 acres along one edge and planted a foodplot... works awesome. Wasn’t an oak tree on the place when we bought it and I believe I have to 50 living in various places now. I add about 4 or 5 a year now... I’ve gotten smarter. Easier to get 10 to survive than to plant a hundred and have them fail.
I love this stuff.
Orlando, on our quarry there is probably 20 acres of locust. I almost went in and bulldozed the entire patch. Did some research and decided to leave it alone and do a little hinge cutting. It’s an awesome bedding area and the deer love the pods.
One Arrow, sounds like you've put in a lot of work and developed a great place. Just curious if you would share your tree planting/growing process (plant, weed control etc). Always looking for a better process. The habitat improvement thing is a bit addicting for me...I spend most of my time hunting, thinking about where I am going to plant what next. Thanks!
I’ll actually do tree planting prep work starting in the spring. I’ll do a chemical kill in the area I’m going to dig up. I’ll spray it in the spring and then again mid summer. I’ll also dig it up late summer to turn the soil.
I buy all my trees from a good nursery... a good rootball is a must.
I’ll plant them in October. Tubed and caged the same day I plant (learned from a few bad experiences). Do not wait to cage and tube them.... I lost 20 trees in one night, I’m guessing coyotes or coons... they literally pulled them out of the ground!
Give them a good soaking and if you have a dry winter make sure to haul some water to them, even when they are dormant. First year I don’t put fertilizer on... second year a little.
Again, I don’t go too big. I’m down to planting maybe 10-20 trees a year. Used to wear myself out planting hundreds... and most of those died. I will have almost a 90-100% survival rate by taking really good care of them the first couple of years.
Good info. All I have planted are bare root seedlings. How big of trees and what kind of tubes do you use?
I use to plant bare root seedlings and still do on my walnuts. Walnuts are pretty dang tough.
I like the rootball I get from Nativ nursery on my oaks. They seem to do better, but are much more expensive. My fruit trees I get from Stark Bro’s.
I use to plant bare root seedlings and still do on my walnuts. Walnuts are pretty dang tough.
I like the rootball I get from Nativ nursery on my oaks. They seem to do better, but are much more expensive. My fruit trees I get from Stark Bro’s.
I'm a fall tree planter guy too and like said above... don't let them dry out in the winter. For you guys who leave the locust alone, do they not completely take over? I'm good with something that comes in thick (I love hedge trees) but these things spread pretty fast through root suckering and don't kill real easy. Plus they tend to shade out anything else that could be growing there.
I'm interested in mass plantings of Mulberry and American plum seeds. I've tried direct seeding with Sawtooth but have zero success unless I protect the seed and tree once sprouted. If I'm going to have to cage something I would rather buy a small tree and save a couple of years time. But what about the two I mentioned above, anyone have luck planting them by seed?
I also really like hedge trees -best posts ever, great cover for deer and quail (hawks don’t seem to like to perch in them), drop one and have an instant rabbitat , good for the squirrels, deer and cattle eat a lot of leaves. I’vE thought about mass planting mulberry, but have not gotten past thinking about it. Think they would have to be protected due to browse pressure? Haven’t tried seeding American plum. But, had a pack rat leave a pile of them in the barn...now you have me thinking...
Catscratch I leave the locusts alone in the one bedding area... anywhere else, they get cut and treated. You are correct they can spread, but I haven’t had much problem with them spreading outside the bedding area... at least not to the point where it’s unmanageable.
For Hedge I throw the apples around the pasture where I want them. It's easy and in a couple of years you start to notice them coming up through the grass. There was a study done in OK about native browse plants. I don't remember the exact numbers but Hedge leafs came in high for both preference and protein content.
Mulberry is a close relative to Hedge. I know it's preference and protein is similar. I imagine that it will be like anything else I plant and if not protected will get destroyed. My only hope is that rodents won't find the seeds like they do acorns, and that I can plant enough of them that they can survive (even if stunted from browsing). I wouldn't mind having an acre or two of 2' tall mulberry getting browsed as long as it doesn't kill them. I don't see much use to having non-mast bearing trees that outgrow deer height anyway. There is one other plus to Hedge and Mulberry and that is Che can be grafted to them. Once my Che trees are well enough established I plant to convert quite a few trees into Che.
Do you brushhog around the locust bedding once in a while to keep them in check? I worry about being a bad neighbor when it comes to invasives. I spend a lot of time fighting sericea, Johnson grass, thistles, and locust (especially around my borders). I don't want my problems to become someone else's.
Local nursery has a 12 ft tall saw tooth for 160. I dont want to be accused of putting a feeder out.
Locust took over my place with hedge. Hedge leaves are like 20% protein. 1st thing the quail biologist told me is if you want quail get rid of the trees. That is where I am at. NRCS has a satellite photo of my place in 1981. There were 2 trees on it, both along the creek. Now there are thousands.
Careful bushhogging locusts as they are prone to suckering. I was told by a biologist trees are bad for quail due to providing perches for hawks I don’t think hedge is as bad as some and can actually provide good overhead cover. Sure bust a lot of coveys out of hedgerows. Biggest problem I see with most hedgerows is they are too mature.
I believe quail like clump grasses and clear understory with good overhead cover. Basically anything they can walk/run through and still have protection from above.
I've never tried brushhogging locust, I use chemical. Remedy Ultra mixed with diesel is my go-to for basal spray. I tried gly but had trouble with suckering. The trunks I sprayed dies, but would send up a Medusa of root suckering all around it.
Not sure what suckering is? But I assume it is regrowth after removal? That's what happened when I dozed a bunch of locusts at my farm. I'm going to napalm them this spring
Ks gobbler- get rid of trees? When there were thousands of quail in the 80's we shot them around trees
If you are managing for deer remember Honey Locust leaf and twig fooder is super high in calories which equates to high energy levels. The pods are 5% protein and 30% sugar. The canopy of the tree also doesn't block out enough sun to hinder understory growth if trees are spaces correctly. We have them out west and we thin them out to about one tree every ten feet.
I use Remedy and diesel to basal spray too. Then in spring on small trees, switch to Remedy and 24d for foliar spray (diesel burns the leaves before the chemical can be taken down into the tree). Locusts, if not sprayed when cut will send up new shoots off the roots and can create a worse problem. From my experience, quail prefer a mosaic of cover and food types. Best sections I have hunted have pasture, creek, some good sized plum thickets, weeds, fields of different crops...lots of edge. When it's really cold out, find quail, deer, coyotes etc in the thick cedar patch.
Orlando - I use Gordon's Brush Killer for foliar spray on locust and don't get suckering. It's got 2,4-D, Triclopyr, and Dicamba in it. I believe it's cheaper than Remedy and is pure death... I also use it on thistles in the rosette stage and sericea whenever I find it.
Well, since deer like locust it's a good thing I suck at eliminating them. So far I've only been able to control it's spread from getting out of hand.
Catscratch- the Gordon’s looks good. I will try it. Wonder a little about the Dicamba in it though. There is a lot of litigation re Dicamba drift. Thanks!
Too bad Kansas quit selling sawtooth,I just bought some the other day from Cold stream.I usually buy most of my saplings from Missouri forestry.Anyone wanting to plant alot of trees can contact kansas forestry and borrow the 3pt tree planter and with 2 or 3 guys you can plant thousands of seedlings in a day on prepared ground.Some of my burs produced before my sawtooths and I will be moving some big bur late fall I hope to better locations.My all time favorite wildlife plant is sandhill plumb.I think these provide the best cover and some good food for about anything that walks and is great quail cover for protection against those dang hawks.gobbler I did that on a few trees,I worked a deal with a nursery to buy some balled oaks about 8ft tall,and planted a couple years ago.Some nurseries you can buy them fairly cheap if to crooked to sell.
Orlando - I've hand-sprayed quite a bit of Gordon's and haven't any issues with drift. I thought the same thing and was worried at first but I've had no issues.
Habitat - My dad used that tree planter to plant treerows into black locust, choke cherry, and cedars. Worked slick and like you said... was able to plant several thousand trees in a day.
Some really good info here, and a lot of hard work...thanks for all that you are doin fellas!
You can also rent a tree planter from your local NRCS office. I’ve bought trees from Kansas forest service. But they were a lot cheaper from MDC
I like the variety from MDC. Id like to have some concordia oaks. There are some big bur oaks along the road just south of me. I gather the acorns and dump them on my place and let squirrels spread them. Ive got a pin oak growing in a draw that came from the local methodist church tree. Its a prolific tree so we gathered a bunch of acorns and dumped them. I also found a shumard seedling in my tree clearing mess I didnt know was there. I like to let those bushy tail devils do the work. Part of my place floods and stays that way for a month so its difficult to manage.
Anyone have a picture of the tree planter? Minimum horse required? Thanks.
HP depends on the size of the planter. I have seen them advertised as low as 30 hp minimum and up to 70 hp minimum. The one time I used one, we used a 140 hp tractor as that is what was available. I would have preferred something smaller where we were planting.
Alot of the NRCS offices don't have tree planters,just the no till grass drills.If interested in getting a tree planter from forestry email dennis Carlson
he will help you out.It helps to disc the ground in winter and then broadcast or plant heavy crop of wheat and leave till spring then burn down with roundup day or so before planting.My tractor is a 30hp and I have no issues but my ground is sandy loam.May need alittle more for black dirt.Also order some of the crystals to mix in bucket so you can dip the seedlings roots in them.Letting the roots of the seedlings dry even some can make a difference on life of seedling.Think real hard about using tubes also.They are worth it.I actually tested tubes for USDA before they would cost share on them and after 2 years with tubes I had around 75% survival.I would suggest tubing at least every other. For you guys that spray that are trying to erradicate, do you spray in the spring or fall. I have found fall spraying right before a tree, poison ivy, honey suckle goes dormant to work the best. I use a skid steer with a brush hog type attachment in the spring for anything left. Seems to work well as it can be angled to disrupt root systems.
Thanks guys. Matte, in the Fall if I can, better absorption obviously.
I basal spray in fall/ winter and foliar in spring when the leaves are on. I also put the absorbent root slurry on when planting to help if they don’t get a good soaking. As for tubes, I won’t plant anymore trees without them. Attached is a picture (I hope)of oak trees. Note the difference in the ones tubed vs non tubed between. All were planted same time 2010.
Also, tubes make it a lot easier to walk along with the backpack sprayer and give a shot of glyphosate without hitting the tree.
Orlando......I see some of your trees are caged and some are not. Is there a reason for that? Experimenting possibly? Also, do you run into problems with voles/rodents girdling your trees inside of the tubes? It’s a problem here in Iowa.
T-Roy, due to the expense, I made cages out of remesh and selected the best trees for the extra protection. A buck will occasionally work the tree tubes over without it. Voles/ mice are an issue here also. Keeping the bottom of the tubes buried seems to help as does keeping grass and weeds short. I did worry about the trees not hardening off in the winter. But, that has not been a problem. I used weed mats initially and found the voles loved digging under them...major pain. Finally pulled the mats and threw them away. Nothing better than going through all the time, money, and effort and seeing that little bare root seedling you planted go all Superman! (Pic was upright until loaded...grrr)
Another thing. EQUIP dictated the tree spacing expecting the need to thin the trees when crowns start competing. I will not plant that many that close again. Like One Arrow said: Work Smarter...not harder.
t-roy - I use aluminum window screen around the trunk of the tree to protect from rabbits and other rodents. It's cheap from Walmart, can be cut with scissors, and is very effective. I haven't had a problem with voles so can't recommend how well it works against them.
Tubes - if I have a choice I'll pick cages over tubes every time. My experience is that trees grow really fast upward in a tube but then stalls on height while trunk diameter catches up. Tubes also create some problems with wasp nests, aren't great protection from a buck wanting to rub, and deer tend to want to nip the central leader of the tree once it pops out of the top of the tube. I know it's a little contradictory to what others have posted and it's completely based on personal experience... but I prefer cages when possible. The drawback is price. I can tube a lot more trees than I can cage.
Persimmons
Persimmons
I was out quail hunting today and snapped these pic. The sawtooth you see hanging 2 ft out the top of the 5' tube was 18" tall last year.
Using 5’ tubes, I did not have problems with deer reaching over the top. I did have issues with the tree growing out the top and wind damaging it due to having a thin stem when using rebar for stake as the tube would not flex. I changed to driving a 30” stake to 12” and sliding a 4’ pvc pipe over that, then tying the tube to the PVC stake. The stake flexes in the wind which stimulates girth. The occasional 40 or 50 mph wind will pull some of the tubes off the trees requiring a little work putting them back. Wasps can be an occasional issue. But a quick shot of spray usually takes care of that. I may try caging a few of my untuned trees and see what happens. KsG- what kind of tubes are you using?
Ever have problems with the top edge of the tube rubbing the bark off your tree as it blows around? Maybe I don't have tall enough tubes or flexible enough stakes.
https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/products.php?mi=16231&itemnum=17142&title=Protex® Pro/Gro Solid Tube Tree Protectors
I use fiberglass stakes.
Awesome thread. This is bringing back memories of doing this as a kid. We now enjoy the trees as they are 30 year old stands, but I have a few ideas in mind to get my kids involved on this as well. The tree planter was pretty slick and we used our old Alice Chalmers so the question asked above about how much horsepower is needed is really not much. I've had good luck with the K-state trees from Kansasforests.org site, but will be looking into these other recommended above.
I think I used Tubex Combitubes. They were flared a little at the top but still rubbed some on the tree. It was not a problem once the rebar stake was replaced with flexible PVC. Also found out how much deer like to chew on the ends of the plastic zip-ties. The removable zip-ties became non-adjustable.
It’s amazing that a guy spends all the time and energy to plant, and protect these trees, and every stinking varmint out there seems to take great pleasure in trying to screw things up, one way or another!
I planted about 25 potted 4’-5’ Dunstan Chestnuts a few years back. Put them in 5’ tubes and staked the tubes with either a 2” diameter cedar post, or a 6’ long stick of 1/2” steel electrical conduit. I put landscape fabric around the base of them, then a layer of mulch. The friggen coons dug through all of the mulch and tore up all of the fabric, looking for grubs! The bucks rubbed on about 5-6 of the tubes and, pretty much ruined those trees. Either voles or mice built nests in several of the tubes out of the leaves that were inside of the tubes and girdled another 4-5 trees and killed them. Out of 25 trees planted, only about 10 of them are still alive.
Now, when I plant any new trees, I cage every one of them with woven (hog) wire, stacked double, which makes them about 6’ high, with a 5’ diameter. I stake them with 2 tee post. I’ve even had deer reach in and tear up the cages until I staked them. On one of my farms, there was a big pile of rolled up hog wire, so it costs me nothing, plus it is heavier duty than remesh. I tube them the first year, or possibly 2, then I pull the tubes off. I also wrap the window screening around the trunks, like catscratch suggests. I generally go up 18”-24” here in Iowa. Sometimes the snow depth will allow rabbits to be able to reach up higher on the tree. Not sure how you’re fastening yours catscratch, but I just wrap it around the trunk with with several inches of excess screen, and use a plain old stapler and staple ends together. As the trunk expands, the screening expands with it. You might have to restaple it every couple of year, but seems to work good for me. There was a bowsiter on another thread a couple of years ago that said he has good luck spraying the trunks with flex seal type rubber coating and has had great success with it. I haven’t tried it yet, but seems that it would work. I would think white would be better than black to, hopefully, prevent sun scauld. I’ve heard of using white latex paint as well.
Orlando.....I like the idea using the rebar and pvc pipe. What size pvc pipe do you use?
Lol, I can't kill what I don't want... and I can't keep the critters from killing what I do want!
On attaching the window screen I used to use staples, but now I just fold it over on itself and put a crease in it.
I worked on a USFWS prescribed fire crew for 5 years so fire is one of my favorite management tools. Timing and intensity can vary the results to match your needs.
T-Roy, no doubt nurturing trees is a labor of love...that can be maddening at the same time. I’VE often thought about getting out the ol’ conibears and waging war on the coons because they climb inside cages and tear up tubes. As difficult as it is to grow a tree, it’s amazing any ever make it on their own. Dang critters can destroy overnight what took years to grow.
You guys are making me nervous...I better go check tubes and see if any critters have taken up residence I use the 1/2” ID pvc.
KsGobbler - what kind of burn plan do you use and what plants are you trying to promote? I have always burned CRP according to NRCS guidelines (they dictate burn timing) which was always late winter/early spring. I preferred to burn a little later to help knock back the cool season grasses. But, timing is usually dependent upon proper weather conditions (wind speed, direction, humidity etc) I believe NRCS has added some summer burning to the mix but have not researched what the advantages are.
I think coons are only a problem when they are trying to get to a wasp nest (to eat larvae) or in for a mouse nest. I like to pull my tubes in the fall, clean out leafs and nests, check window screen, and prune any laterals that started to grow inside the tube. I don't ever have problems with coons after that.
It does seem like a miracle that any tree survives. I've had great luck "saving" native trees. A little pruning and a cage or tube can take a tree that already has a established root system and give it the chance it needs to really shoot up. My favorite natives to save are Burr, Chinquapin, and DCO's... but a well placed Red/Pin oak is nice too.
Same here, I would like to know when you would suggest burning for maximum forb production. I wanted to do a fall burn this year but conditions were never right when I had time.
Early spring burns are best for forbs. If you have a lot of sericea this can be counter productive. If we were trying to beat back the brush we shot for a fall burn. New research is showing a late summer burn to be excellent for sericea control. You’ve got to forgo burning in the spring to allow the fuel to build. Sept 1 seems to be the magic number being thrown around. I was going to do it this year but we were in drought. I have a portion of mine set aside this year. I am going to run fire through it late September and see how sericea responds. One thing I am working on is fescue/brome eradication. You get several options. Early spring burn. Fescue will come back first then hit it with herbicide. Growing season burns mid summer will put a hurting on it, but it is a thick smoky mess. Can do a fall burn to expose the fescue and they uptake chemical better in the fall. You can also use weather to your advantage. Higher humidity lessens fire effects so if all you want to do is clear dead vegetation cool temps, and high humidity will be your friend. THere are a lot of ways to put fire back into your rotation. I’ve burned on the 3rd of January when it was so cold running the SxS I was begging for engine duty. There are Prescribed burning Coops popping up.
I know it seems like the entire state is burning the first 2 weeks of April but really as long as the NWSG is dormant you aren’t going to damage it. KSU is trying to get that info out but you are more likely to get ranchers to change churches than change when they burn. I think we are going to be forced to change how we burn through the courts.
Thanks for the explanation gobbler. The reason I had planned a fall burn this year was due to sericea (we've probably read the same studies). I may do an early spring burn on this same pasture since I didn't get to do the fall burn then spray cool season grasses to help forbs. I can then do a fall burn a year or two later after fuel has built back up.
I use the treepro tubes and if you don't need large quantities try to find someone to share an order through it saves alot because shipping is huge part of cost.In my area if you don't tube an oak it will get rubbed.I usually tube until the trunk gets around a 1/2 inch from tube then cut tube off and build a cage that is 6 inches bigger around than tree.These will be removed when tree gets bigger but I barely fasten so that if forgotton the tree will pop the wire
Been out all morning slaying hedge trees. I run the saw so much I get tennis elbow. Only 10 more to go in this little area.
I haven’t read all comments above but tubing is a mistake.
A better use of money is to establish a caging program where your are caging the apical dominant trees every year.You may have to use two rebar the first year but then only one is usually needed as deer learn the game.
I even ran out of rebar and have many that I didn’t rebar at all and only every now an again are they messed with.
Tubing is costly and for the same money and time you can just stick more trees in the ground and just cage your best ones every year or if not that many cage them all.
Tubes will fill up with leaves ,tubes cause fast apical growth leading to breakage and they are unsightly .Dont tube .
Ksgobbler - did you spray your hedge after cutting it or are you letting them stump sprout? I get a lot of deer usage on the hedge I let stump sprout.
I treat it all. What it the price to cage? I can tube for about 2.55 per tree. I wait a minimum of 2 years from when the tree comes out of the tube and you can interconnect 2 tubes as the tree grows.
Genesis, what is your weed/grass control process on caged/no-tubed trees? I like the ease of spraying around tubes. Cleaning leaves is a 1x/yr job and doesn’t take long. Only problem with breakage is if I used inflexible rebar to stake tubes. And then worst breakage is on sawtooths.
Costs me about $8 to cage a tree and it protects for the whole life of the tree. I have problems with tubes that I don't with cages so as long as I can afford it I prefer cages. With that said I use tubes too because of cost, I just prefer cages. For weed and grass control I spray gly on a calm day with my nozzle set for a course stream (and low pressure) so there isn't any drift.
What’s everyone’s go to for cages? I have been buying 150 ‘ rolls of 5’ remesh and making cages out of that.
Orlando..... I’m not a big fan of the remesh. It’s not as stiff as the hog wire, IMO. I like the 5’ tall 2”x3” wire mesh fencing the best, but it’s a little spendy. It keeps rabbits out. One of the farms I bought had a bunch of hog wire rolls in a pile. I’ve been using it by stacking one hoop on top of the other one and tying them together with hog ring pliers. That makes them 5’-6’ tall and I make them at least 4’ in diameter to discourage the deer from trying to reach through the grids. I then use 2 tee posts or 1/2”-3/4” electrical conduit to hold them in place. Some guys say they don’t stake their cages, but I have had issues with the deer occasionally pushing them over trying to reach through to try and browse the leaves/buds.
Orlando - I buy the exact same thing. I have some that I don't have staked down. If they can make it though a summer the grass grows over the bottom and holds it down pretty well. Staked is preferred though.
I also have quite a few like t-roy posted because the wire was free. Free is nice!
I have put up hundreds of tubes and you can tell the difference between the trees after 15 years,the ones that weren't in tubes are very small compared to the normal looking trees that were in tubes for the first several years of their life.Tubes do require some care such as removeing when tree gets big enough it almost touches the tube.I then cut them off and put a 24 inch diameter cage around tree but you don't have to stake it just discourages deer from rubbing.
Habitat - I suppose once you remove the tube, they are big enough that rabbits, voles, mice etc don't bother them?
How's habitat work going guys? I've planted a real nice Chestnut tree (thanks to Habitat), and 2 new varieties of Jujube. Also have lots of seed ready for barley, wildflowers, pumpkins, carrots, okra, and maybe beans. Beans will only go in if I can come up with an electric fence to try to protect it them with.
Anybody else gearing up for spring habitat work?
I've been doing more than usual. Burning grass to get rid of blackberries and small locust. I'm experimenting what stimulates regrowth of bluestem grass more, burning, discing, or mowing. Found an awesome new spot for a stand on a hill next to a food plot. I haven't decided if I'm going to plant now or August.
Chestnuts are like fruit trees, think you need more than one.
So far this year we've planted several dozen dco's, chinquapin oaks, and sawtooth gobblers. We also removed tree tubes from some burr english oaks we planted back in 2014 and put cages around them. I weedeated down to bare dirt around the new plantings, in hopes that when the neighbors burn off their wheat stubble and it inevitably gets on us, it'll spare the new plantings. The grass should be green and lush around them. Btw, Wildlife Group is a great place to get bare root seedlings of all kinds of oaks, they're pretty reasonable too.
Anybody on here ever plant switchgrass or Egyptian wheat?
I've planted Egyptian wheat before...
Did the deer and quail use it?
Here's my take on Egyptian Wheat: It grows tall and makes decent cover, but for deer I see much more usage in a food based plot (beans, winter wheat, clover, etc). I suppose that if you needed cover and already had food it might be different. It does produce seed above the deer's reach which can be good. When I plant other (shorter) sorghums the deer eat the berries at the doughy stage and there usually isn't much left for the quail by winter. EW it grows high, then mid winter it tends to break in half and put the seed at ground level which is good for quail.
Ever try Broom Corn? It's an interesting plant.
I have 640 acres in west central ks Grass from 6” to 5’. I’ve put in a small solar well that pumps into a 50 gallon ground level tank. Had two small ponds biilt, they hold water year round, except in super drought times. Plant food plots, milo, 10-12 acres divided into four different plots. Planted about fifty cedars in groups on 3-4, mostly for pheasant cover in extreme cold snowy periods. This is really phesant hunting property, but I have arrowed three bucks in the past four years and rifle shot one, on this property.
Thornton.......if you are interested in info on planting switchgrass, there is a TON of great information on iowawhitetail.com. Go to the Doubletree forum and pull up the “switchgrass “ thread.
I’ve planted EW a few years back for a screen and it worked well for that, but it didn’t hold up well with a moderate snow load. Don’t know about the pheasant or quail aspects, as we don’t have any quail where I’m at, and very few pheasants, due to the close proximity of timber to my plots on my farms (predation from raptors). You can go a mile to the east of me (open prairie) and there is a night and day difference in the pheasant numbers.
As for catscratch’s question, I pulled some soil samples this evening from several plots. Still have 4 more plots to take samples from. Also cleaned up a bunch of brush/trees on about 3/4 acre gas pipeline crossing that was recently cleared by the gas company, in preparation of putting in a clover plot there. Frost seeded some more clover into a couple of existing plots as well. Doing a bit of maintenance on my corn/bean planter. Lots more stuff to do! Just getting started.
Have 'developed' many properties over the years but may be starting my first in Ks soon.Great info here,thanks. I'm a tree freak and have planted many thousands.I agree on cages vs tubes.Spendier but worth it long term. As to food plots for pheasants,consider checking into the SD Game Fish Parks seed mix they developed about 3 yrs ago now.Science based and it works. Also,if it will grow,consider popcorn.Plant a strip of regular corn next to a similar sized popcorn strip-i know where the majority of pheasants will be.
I'm glad you mentioned soil samples t-roy, I had kind of let that slip from my mind and need to get it done.
I've got too much seed for the area I have to plant. I need to plan some more plots.
Forgot,saw the reference to Dicamba and litigation.I see Round Up is getting roasted by juries despite most good science seeming to say there is no cancer risk.If that 'science' is wrong,all future generations will die anyway.It's sadly used like water around here.Got a neighbor who likes to pick up a handful of dirt and ask you to smell it-or try to find a worm or anything living in it.Scary.
I've always wondered what actual research shows about gly and microbes. I know you can find internet stuff supporting which ever side you want it to. I use gly... and worms/soil insects are never in short order. I don't till though and I try hard to keep the surface from ever being exposed with either living plants or thatch on top.
I didn’t read back through all of the posts, sorry if any of you already covered it. Has anyone tried planting Allegheny chinkapin shrubs?
Good stuff. Been busy clearing out some of our cedar patches that started invading oak timber stand. We are fortunate enough to have natural supply of chinkapin oaks and many young ones were not getting open canopy to thrive. We also have burr oaks mixed in but predominantly chinkapin.
It's going to be a several year project but my boys and I spent all of last weekend working on about an acre of timber and I was very pleased with the end result. Did some removal of undesirable and treated and also hinged a few for some bedding cover mixed in.
Wish we didn't have sports every weekend as I could do this every day and have plenty to go. On to the next and I also have native grass stands that we wanted to just let go about 20 years ago. Bad idea. They got so thick with cedars it is really only best for predator cover. I really thought the deer were using it pretty heavily for bedding but have noticed now that it's so thick and nothing else grows, there isn't much more value other than the cover and I see the beds all up near the oak timber on the fringe of where the hardwoods meet the cedars. Going to remove cedars again and allow the native grass to come back and possibly leave some skeletons of cedars for cover and possibly one small section in the middle. The cedars invading the oaks will be a bit tricky and I may have to leave a lot of those skeletons too, just so I don't damage more than I need to on the younger oaks.
I have a few that I planted a couple of years ago. They haven't done well. Deer hammer them if left un-protected and the protected ones seem to be either diseased or very weak growing. Most that I planted died. I tried to grow them in both cages and tubes.
I'm trying to relocate a new study that I read. It was all about how food plots and supplements are less than 10% of a deers diet. 90% is still natural vegetation found in their home range.
I talked to a couple orchards that I’ve had luck with in the past Cat, they said you have to really baby them the first couple years and then they will toughen up some. If you can just get them established they will really take off. The fella I talked to highly recommended mulching the the first year or two with pine straw. We have a couple giant pine trees in our yard and we’re always getting rid of needles seems like, might work out pretty good. They said absolutely don’t plant them in an area that holds water.
Thanks ksq. I'll keep babying them until they either all die, or they start to take off.
Some asked about a tree planter. Here is one that I borrowed from the KS ST Forest Service to plant 1400 cedars, wild plum and shumac. This one had two seats, one on each side of the trench and they took turns dropping in the bare root trees. I have a John Deere 1050 4WD that is just over 30hp. It was a load pulling it up hill so we ended up driving around and planting down hill.
This is what it looked like after we planted the trees.
They also had a machine that laid the fabric. Someone had to sit on it, cut a slit and pull the tree through the fabric. It was all a pretty slick operation with very simple equipment.
How far apart did you plant,I planted fragrant sumac and sandhill plums in fabric several years ago and now I can't get it cut off.I am going to build a hoe type tool with a blade to cut it.Love using the forestry planter instead of a dibble bar
We planted everything 10' apart. Each tree was put in at 10' and the rows were about 10' apart and staggered. It's been about 5 years and I should probably pull up the fabric on the shrubs so they can fill in. The plums and sumac did very well but I lost about 1/3 of the cedars because of he drought. I went back in over the next few years and filled in the cedars. Everything is doing very well now.
I just found a knife hook in a new catalog I received from A.M. Lenonard supply that should work great to cut fabric in those shrub plantings.I did however ride right up on deer laying between the rows of the sandhill plums that were planted in fabric while checking last spring
JSW very neat.The planter looks identical to the one we can use owned by the County here in SoDak.The fabric machine is a bit different. Sure beats hand planting!Soon to be a rut runway.
Along these lines......
https://biggeekdad.com/2019/05/from-wasteland-to-dreamland/
