Contributors to this thread:
I have to just say I’ve seen some pretty crazy conversations on this page over the years, but it doesn’t hold a candle to the Kansas Hunting and Fishing FB Page.
One post can have more replies and drama than I see here in an entire week!
I’ve got some opinions on how this all will play out, but it’s definitely interesting to see how these “Social Media” pages will impact the future of hunting. The dynamics of such pages is very interesting.
Kansas Hunting and Fishing FB also has 30,000 plus following, with hundreds commenting daily. Kansas Bowsite? Same ol’ group of grouchy (myself included) few. Kyle, Matt, Thorton, non-residents pissed at Thorton, West, Randy, residents pissed at Thorton ??, me... Years ago when Facebook shifted from teens to adults, Dr. Pearce predicted, “This won’t be good...” Except for her choice in spouses, she is usually right.
I think the only guy I pissed today was the one who wanted to know my duck hunting spot I drove 150 miles to find. I've no idea who Randy is but way to stir the pot as usual Writer
And Sito hates all baiters and Bill Self!!!!!!!!! Good group of guys on here. Be nice to all meet in person. And we have the annual March Madness Bracketology coming up. If we could keep people from posting about deer and stick to upland hunting and basketball it would be a bit more friendly. Rock Chalk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (The Shockers have left me embarrassed)
Randy Smith a.ka. Trebarker.
I hope I didn't piss off Treebarker. I don't recall any off words with him and I've always enjoyed his posts.
Jason... my shots were at guys who just keep picking at you, on and on. It’s silly. You’d know it if you made Randy mad.
Lol, Facebook is far to "busy" for me to participate in, but I do check from time to time to look at the pics.
Bowsite would be included in the Social Media.
I guess what I find most interesting about the FB page is the instantaneous negative comments and how quickly people “dogpile” on an unsuspecting person. It could hours/days on bowsite.
From antler size to an old man asking for advice on when to take his grandson hunting.
The “boys club” and “mines bigger” mentality is strong with that page.
Perhaps it seems more so because of the number of followers, and I know there are some high points and good discussions, but from the outside looking in it I’m not confident the pros outweigh the cons.
I see the same thing with some of the social media hunting apps.
Just find it all interesting...
I thought the commercialism folks, outfitters, land pimps and whiney land owners out to sell the deer were the ones that didn't like me. Lord knows the internet, FB and even BS has it fair share of snowflakes and turd stirrers. Being brutally honest offends most of them.
Always respected the way to made all those trips to Topeka, Randy, and how you spoke with facts, even it did little good, to the legislature. You have a great grasp for what’s happened to deer management in Kansas.
Rite on: and thanks Trebarker, with one e.
My reward was when I got the T-Tags shut down, the rest of the dam burst could not be prevented nor stopped. I was very pleased to see those tags die, they should have never been allowed. No individual should ever be allowed to profit from the sale of a deer tag, nor be allowed to control the distribution of NR tags. People from out of State were making money off Kansas deer tags.
We had the ears of several legislators at that time, they were hearing and listening to the resident hunters complaints. The only reason they were still able to open the border/floodgates, was due to the fact there were legislators with seniority/power positions in both the House and Senate, many of them were involved in commercial hunting operations and wanted to cash in on the deer too. TERM LIMITS at all levels of the government is way past due!
I too appreciate all you’ve done in Topeka in the past Randy. The best thing we have going for us now is Rep. Doug Blex, he is an avid supporter of resident deer hunters. Also, being a retired KDWP biologist helps too. I’m afraid we’re still watching a losing battle though...
Randy, I’m beginning to wonder if the flood gates have opened yet... I fear it could get much worse.
I wonder how many commissioners/legislators have close ties with outfitters or others who profit from hunting? I’m betting most.
One Arrow - as per commissioners, at least, if you mean they vote to better those who profit, I disagree. I made a string of 90 of 95 commission meetings. I can only think of a very few who routinely put commercialization of wildlife ahead of the resource. There have been a number of reps and senators who “got it,” but as Randy wrote, pro-commercialization people in prominent positions basically controlled things. Wildlife and Parks fought the t-tags from the first day they started as did many residents and some key landowners.
Yes, the gates have been opened too far, the flood has already happened. The majority of the legislators in Topeka know nothing about deer hunting, and simply follow what the senior members of the committees support and recommend, as well as what the well funded lobbying groups ask for. Deer hunting issues are not high priority issues to most Legislators in Topeka. If Doug Blex serves on either of the two committees that handle deer related issues, he is one to spend a lot of time talking/working with for sure.
I haven't been to Commission meeting for some time now. When I was routinely going, they were open to discussion and debate on the issues, much more so than at the legislative level. The Commission at least would listen to the KDWP staff's recommendations, the Legislature told the KDWP how it would be done.
The day t-tags died, the Chair of the joint committee, allowed me to get up and speak at the meeting. For those that have not taken part in the legislative process, discussion and debate is not normally allowed at that stage of the process. I was there in casual street clothes, unprepared to speak, I did not have all of my data and paperwork to read from. When the chairman called me to the mic, I did not know what to expect. He simply asked me what I thought of the proposed legislation, what would I and the KBA suggest be done with it. No other groups or lobbyists were asked to speak. They amended the bill to end the t-tags and voted to send the rest of the bill to the governor. I was glad I decided to make the trip that day to see what happened with the bill, normally I would not have because as I said you are normally not allowed to speak.
The people in power at Topeka at that time, those that had been in the legislature for 15-20 yrs were mostly Western Ks farmers/ranchers that the ag lobbying groups had support from. They are the ones that promoted/pushed for commercialism to happen. If you are a member of Farm Bureau, Kansas Livestock Assoc, or are a major funder of KSU, you helped pay for it to happen.
Considering the commission, I don’t know Mike... honestly don’t. Just a guess based off what I’ve seen over the last few years and a few comments that have been made by SOME commissioners. One in particular who isn’t on the commission anymore.
Legislators... I’m dead on.
Definitely don’t want to throw them all under the bus. I do know there is at least one commissioner that I believe will act with the interest of wildlife at heart, if he don’t I’ll stick my boot up his arse at the next family gathering. Good, God fearing man. Perhaps they all will... I shouldn’t jump to conclusions.
However, I know for a fact that they all have their ears bent by outfitters and special interest groups. Squeaky wheel?
What I’ve seen over the last 2 years has made my stomach turn... saw it coming years before. I am personally at one of the biggest hunting crossroads in my life. I don’t think I’m going to like the road I’m likely to head down, but sick and tired of fighting it.
Considering the commission, I don’t know Mike... honestly don’t. Just a guess based off what I’ve seen over the last few years and a few comments that have been made by SOME commissioners. One in particular who isn’t on the commission anymore.
Legislators... I’m dead on.
Definitely don’t want to throw them all under the bus. I do know there is at least one commissioner that I believe will act with the interest of wildlife at heart, if he don’t I’ll stick my boot up his arse at the next family gathering. Good, God fearing man. Perhaps they all will... I shouldn’t jump to conclusions.
However, I know for a fact that they all have their ears bent by outfitters and special interest groups. Squeaky wheel?
What I’ve seen over the last 2 years has made my stomach turn... saw it coming years before. I am personally at one of the biggest hunting crossroads in my life. I don’t think I’m going to like the road I’m likely to head down, but sick and tired of fighting it.
We’ve had some solid politicians. My senator, when I lived in Newton, Carolyn McGunn helped a lot when she chaired a natural resources committee. But, as Randy said, the “good ol’ boy” network of western Kansas for her removed.
We’ve had some solid politicians. My senator, when I lived in Newton, Carolyn McGunn helped a lot when she chaired a natural resources committee. But, as Randy said, the “good ol’ boy” network of western Kansas for her removed.
McGinn would not meet with me. Many others on the two deer related committees would not even allow me a chance to speak with them as I didn't offer them gifts, donations, or dinner parties. I sent all of the committee members letters with supporting data, very few took the time to respond. There were a few that called me asking for me to come in and talk with them after getting my correspondence and learning that I was promoting conservation of the resource, protecting resident hunter rights and ensuring that youth/future hunter recruitment would have access to hunting like we had all enjoyed pre-commercialism. Most stated that they were under the impression, previous to our talks, that we were simply fighting against NR hunters being allowed into the state, which was not true.
"that we were simply fighting against NR hunters being allowed into the state, which was not true." It should have been, Randy! In my opinion It has developed into exactly what I feared it would. With over run, OVER USE, of our meager public lands pushing out resident hunters, out of state money purchasing hunting lands and effectively raising the price of land to unbelievable amounts, pushing out resident hunters, Seasons that are to long and run together to satisfy the influx of hunters, and as for weapons use what a joke. But man oh man, did it bring in the big dollars, so much that they changed the name of the Kansas department of wildlife and parks to include tourism, so, WAY WAY to late now and don't see any hope for any change, as we all know the money has spoken and to hell with the resident. NO MANAGEMENT OTHER THAN FOR THE MONEY. Last I heard they raised the price for a resident deer tag to $42.50.
Chief Amen! The first crack in the foundation was the early muzzleloader and an unwarranted amount of doe tags. Then the gates opened for a flood of changes from 95 on.
Everything you described has occurred Chief, as we predicted and told them it would by the way they have allowed it to happen.
One of the biggest reasons it happened the way it has, was because so many of those with the desire to completely lock out the NR hunters, those not willing to allow any in, those that previously fought against commercialism before us were not diplomatic about it. That had worked at the commission level, that is until the legislators got involved. It also didn't help that there were only a handful of residents willing to get involved in the process. We were out numbered, out of our league financially, unable to provide a solution that made sense politically to stop it.
So true Randy! I am definitely one of the ones that wanted to never see any out of state license tags. Although I knew it would happen, I just find it demoralizing to the extent it did.
Ok gives out a ton of deer tags nr. and res. and seem to have a good herd. I don't know why you guys are so pised off. The deer are down in ks yep. Everyone keeps talking about twenty yrs ago well your right, but the whole world was get over it boys different day different time
If Oklahoma has such a good herd, mass tags works so well there, why are there so many of you willing to shell out nearly $600 to hunt in Kansas? Let me answer that for you, that type of wildlife resource management has ruined the quality of your herd.
Chief and many others from here, myself included, remember what it was like when even seeing a deer was something special. Our quality deer herd will be mediocre just like surrounding states if they continue as they are doing now.
Great memory, Randy, and accurate as usual. Frustrating times. I’m sure you remember broken promises and BS information stated to be facts. Speaking of facts, Chief, tourism does little, if anything, to promote deer hunting in Kansas.
They are killing bigger bucks now than I can ever remember. The only reason I hunt is is because we have land to hunt and I don't in ok. I also remember when seeing a deer was special now they are every where
Come on Michael, really, dig a little deeper. I believe that the Department of Tourism sure does like the money that is generated by folks (legislators) that are pushing for a sustainable or increasing money flow. Be it directly or indirectly. Can you tell me why tourism was added to a fish, and game management departments name? Just for kicks I bet. Tourism department probably see No money in their coffers, ha ha ha. You have, and I understand it (in the position you had,) had to tread lightly with you thoughts and words about the KF&G department. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti Fish and Game, they do a great job with everything but deer management. If I missed something in their management efforts please fill me in. One thing, T Tags are gone.
If a couple of you guys had your way and there were no NR tags in Kansas then every other state was going to bar Kansas residents from hunting in their states. You might not care about that but there's a lot of Kansas hunters who travel out of state and do care. Your vision was and still is completely nearsighted.
Facts again, Chief. Tourism gets no money from Wildlife and Parks. It ranks 50th in the nation for overall funding. It was pulled out of the Department of Commerce because it was all but nothing there. It didn’t even have its own budget, only crumbs from commerce. With a tiny budget, and entire staff of only nine, tourism can’t stand as its own department. It was added to Wildlife and Parks because outdoors is what most people want for leisure in Kansas, both residents and visitors. Search engine research proves that, and it’s far from just hunting. By far, tourism works with state parks more than wildlife or fisheries. I’ve been with tourism for a year as their Outdoor Content Manager and I’ve done about zippo to promote deer hunting. Mostly, it’s state parks, trails and eco-tourism. We do have limited sponsorship with three outdoor tv shows. The shows are not allowed to do episodes on Kansas deer hunting because the resource is already saturated. “Tread lightly”....you mean like attending 90 of 95 commission meetings when at the newspaper? You mean like standing up and asking a secretary if he was invested in a guide operation? Or how about calling out two commissioners who set waterfowl seasons for their personal preferences? Or, do you mean writing an article that went viral about when game wardens (who were following the letter of the law) shot a “pet” mule deer with the family watching? OK, let’s say you’d gotten your way and non-residents had never been allowed to hunt deer in Kansas. Would you have been OK with the eventual loss of millions in federal excise tax money because we descrimated against non-residents? I know you’d have had no problems with other states refusing to let Kansans hunt deer in their state because it wouldn’t impact you. Would you have contributed to the legal fees from the law suits that would have come? It had to come, but nobody in the agency saw it as it is now. Randy has repeatedly, and very accurately, explained how we got to where we are today, which is the heavy hand the legislature has in Kansas deer management.
Glad you cleared up your involvement. I missed those articles in your paper, about you standing up and asking questions. You gave information that I did not know. I apologize. So you now work for the department of Tourism, I did not know that either. It was a not so funny joke around our camp fire, when we would say, the tourist have arrived.
"Would you have been OK with the eventual loss of millions in federal excise tax money because we discriminated against non-residents?" Yes, and I say that because it has turned into a complete no management mess. As I thought it would.
Never had the money or the desire to cross state lines to hunt anyway. Selfish, I guess.
"Would you have contributed to the legal fees from the law suits that would have come?" "It had to come," maybe! maybe not. But hell no!
Overheard a high up Department of Fish and Game official, say , 20 years ago. " we are going to bust their bubble, talking about resident bow hunters. That has stuck in my craw for 20 years now. Glad he is now gone.
I fully understand what Randy has done, or tried to do, for the Kansas Resident Deer hunter. I think everybody realizes that, and that the Ks. Legislators have a heavy hand in what has turned the Department into non functioning when it comes to deer management. So many things could be tried, but I bet any vigorous deviation from current status quo, would result in all hell raining down on the department. As I see it the department might as well turn all deer decisions over to the legislators, oh wait, never mind.
And as I said in an earlier post it is Way, Way to late to change now, the income of money is Hugh. So, what I think don't mean a fart in a wind storm anyway.
I'm relatively new to this site (kind of post once in a while and kind of lurked for a couple of years). I'm just now realizing how in-depth some of you have worked to continue the great hunting in this state. I want to personally say thanks! Very few actually put themselves into the process to get something done or fight for what they believe in. Thanks to those of you who have done the work, I'm impressed and thankful.
It's really funny we bird hunted ks. for over twenty yrs and @ he people of Kansas that we met were so helpful an giving. Now that the law has changed and we can now draw a deer tag it's like we are scum, if you read these post as a nr you would think the whole state hates us and I know that's not true. Some of guys need to get the he'll over it. I met some of the best people in the world bird hunting up there what makes a deer any different
For one, I don't think there would have been lawsuits. #2, it is way more than just a deer body man. Its freedom itself. We lost tens of thousands of acres to wealthy assholes that don't let locals hunt and they've driven land prices up so high, the blue collar family cannot afford a small farm to raise their kids on.
Jason its the same thing here and every where else not just kansas so blame the wealthy assholes not the normal hunters. I've said before hunting and fishing has become the sport of the wealthy
I don't think I have ever read where anyone on here blamed a NR. The blame lies within our own state. Deer hunting seems to bring out the worst in people whereas bird hunting will bring out the best. Not a lot of pheasant poachers and pheasant hunting doesn't seem to have everyone wanting their own special season.
Law suits??????????????????????
Always respect your opinion Jeff its just when you read these threads, from a out of stater it seems like your getting bashed alot.
It's not the people Fran, it's the legislation...many of us also hunt out of state ya'know. I think if you lived here, and had seen these "laws" being implemented, and then the resulting effects on the deer and now Pronghorn as well...you might "sing a different tune".
Frank, why don't you have land to hunt in Oklahoma? Is because it is all leased up and you cannot outbid those that hold the lease? It's that way in all the other states too right?
It's kind of ironic that I took up archery deer hunting back in the 80's because most of my favorite upland bird hunting spots were being leased up and or posted by the wealthy and by guides. I was sick of getting turned down on spots I had hunted with family and friends for years because of the exact same thing that has happened with the deer hunting. My local friends talked me into trying bowhunting, few were doing it, land to hunt on was readily available for the asking.
Commericialism/leasing/and $$$$$ ruling the day is what resident hunters are against. Telling them to get over it and get used to it because other states stupidly manage their resource that way is not going to make them like you more.
Is it working out the way you thought Ray lol
My father has quit hunting. He hasnt bought a license in 2 years after all the places he quail hunted got leased for deer and turkey. Even the upland bird hunters noticed an uptick in leased property this year over on ultimate pheasant.
I never knew a bowhunter growing up.
Randy that is what I said it is the same here and almost every where money buys deer
Slate - The truth will set you free.
I’m done.
Yeh,not just Ks by any means.Where/when I grew up we could grab a gun and walk from town shooting about anything legal but primarily waterfowl,pheasants and rabbits.Go anywhere without worry. Now you would have to drive 45 minutes to find an open public area there.I moved but you can't outrun the situation. Sadly it is only going to get worse and our 'conservation model' is slowly going to degrade.If young,doubtful your grandkids will hunt IMO. Should add:see almost any State Forum on this site and the issues are the same.Just checked our SoDak site and most threads could be placed here or just 'dittoed'.
If I was to mentor any new hunter I would tell them to hunt with a weapon you are comfortable with. I would tell them never settle on the land you know it's always better to know more than less. Having a map that you can list when and where you have seen game and update it all your years. It will be like a stock which value only goes up with time. Last but not least life is short if you are not having fun and enjoying what you are doing, do something else.
The list of new hunters will continue to shrink year by year. Leasing will be the demise of hunting in America. I remember a thread on here about 10 years ago where Frank Syracuse and I had a disagreement on how leasing is bad for hunters in Kansas. Wonder if his feelings has changed since?
I agree that leasing is killing the chances of our youth getting into deer hunting. It'll get worse as the state and hunting shows continue to pimp the KS herd and unscrupulous outfitters take control of more land.
People coming in from out of state don't want to lease 80 acres they want to lease 8,000. Some outfitters lease well over 30,000 acres. It adds up quickly. Hunting shows don't hurt deer hunting, but the people who watch the shows do.
I can see outfitters becoming a thing of the past as this continues to morph into Europe.
I can see outfitters becoming a thing of the past as this continues to morph into Europe.
I could list half a dozen farms within minutes of mine that have been purchased by non residents just for hunting.
free country and free market capitalism
"I could list half a dozen farms within minutes of mine that have been purchased by non residents just for hunting." I welcome that around me.Habitat vs plowing every sq inch possible and destroying the dwindling native prairie.
Didn't Spook buy his property after he poached his deer? NR are buying cheap houses so they have a place to stay, but in return they are buying resident tags. I turned a fellow in for that back in October. He bought a house and 14 acres and thought he could hunt on a resident tenant tag even though he was only here for 2 weeks of the year. Game Warden told me that is a huge problem they are fighting. They really need to find a better way to sell licenses and tags. Courthouse and KDWPT offices only. Several forms of identification and mandatory bowhunters ed. Never did think they should have did away with the bowhunters education. Part of that should be a section on the qualifications and procedures of obtaining a tag.
Kansas residents have lost. It will never and I repeat never go back to the way it used to be. It was a very hard thing for me to comprehend that I would lose every piece of private ground I grew up hunting quail ,rabbits ,Squirrels and deer on. I now lease 2 of those spots out of about 20. It was either lease them or lose them to non resident hunter's and outfitters. I have about 240 acres left out of about 20000 I used to hunt. I feel very sorry for the younger generation coming up. It will be very hard for them to enjoy what we did growing up. I will most likely quit deer hunting in Kansas soon. It's really not worth it to me.
Hey clip a nr can't live outastate and draw that tag leagle HES A POACHER. Look were all in the same situation it's just the sign of the times
I had a similar issue this year with a NR... lied through his teeth. Bought a tenant tag because he “helped” bale hay for the landowner. Finally found out just recently it was confirmed he lied.
Game wardens don’t mess around when they hear a NR is buying tenant/landowner tags illegally.
Interesting discussion. I see myself moving out of this state sometime - live in the Topeka area now S of town and it's an upland wasteland from what I've explored within 2 hrs drive of here - have to drive 3-4 hrs or more to get into any decent bird habitat or places you can hunt and let a dog stretch its legs and actually be able to find birds.
To the poster that thought letting out of staters buy land for "habitat" purposes is a good idea - thats quite laughable - a lot of times when it's purchased for "deer" hunting they let the prairie grow up into a jungle that nothing wants to inhabit save for deer and aviary predators such as coon, oppossom, perches for owls, hawks etc.
I introduced a buddy of mine about 3-4 years ago to bird hunting and he's somewhat gotten into it - I feel bad as I haven't been able to take him the past couple of years due to a life/career transition I made a year and a half ago and started the wheels in motion a bit before that (involved moving from Wichita to Topeka area) I'm hoping the weather and his schedule cooperates and he can join me on a hunt out west at the end of the month.
But yes the tide started changing when the state went down the wrong path and emphasized deer hunting. They'd have benefited far more people, communities, saw increased tax dollars if they would have held steadfast on deer and capitalized on upland birds - I say that not as someone who loves chasing them - simply the econimcs and economies of scale you gain going that way. It only saddens me my son wont be able to experience what I did as a child but hopefully I can find something similar in SE Colorado, NM, AZ, or NV involving Antelope, Quail and Mule Deer. Pheasants are fun but we've lost all the habitat for them and unless we get it back and farmers get over the mind f*ck Monsanto and other chemical companies have put on them we'll never see them like we did a few years ago and many years before.
I agree Shane. If farmers brought back the old practices we would have more of all game. I've found deer like tall grass as good as a patch of cedars. I fear we are seeing the last days of some species as they fade into the history books and others take their place.
