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Deer harvest upon NZ ????????

DEC states deer harvest up in the NZ for 2018 ? I’m not buying it. Because of earlier than normal heavy deep snow, many parts of the northern Zone were unhuntable the last two weeks of season. Although, the deep snow drove some deer to their wintering grounds earlier than normal, some hunters were able to take advantage of that. But, I believe more hunters were hindered by the deep snow, than were helped.

It's tough to say I guess. In the SW portion of the NZ, where I live, the conditions were perfect most of the season. Never any deep snow but we had snow on the ground most of the time.

Report is based on what was noted to DEC as kills

Every year the percentage of people reporting their kills goes up. That doesn't necessarily mean the actual kill is going up obviously.

Many of us believe the DEC cooks the books on the deer harvest numbers each year, we all know they use a formula to take in account the unreported deer.

This year sucked.

We all agreed that the report is not correct, so why don't someone come up with a new way of reporting. That should not be a problem, we all seem to have a answer.

No matter what reporting system is in place, I think it is impossible to get an accurate count of the deer harvest. For what ever reason many hunters will not report their kill.

This was my best year in along time, but i decided not much was going to walk by.

Pat, For those of us that hunt the wilderness areas of the central ADirondacks, and the core of the Tug Hill Plateau, the 6 week gun season is not ridiculous. With that being said, you may be correct that politics are at play. There is a deep hunting camp culture in these areas, and that is one of the reasons for the long gun season. I and many others do not want to see it shortened. The early deep snowfall did shorten the past season by 2 weeks for many gun hunters. Does it need to be shortened in peripheral WMU’s ? Maybe. I have advocated for AR in units with long gun seasons, but we all know how controversial they are. Buy at least it’s a compromise.

I believe the management scheme needs to be more micro managed down to the WMU. For instance , the WMU you hunt in is 6K if I am correct ? The portion of 6K your property is located in is vastly different than the northwestern portion of 6 k. The solution is to tweek the WMU boundary. But, I don’t see the DEC doing anything but painting the NZ with a broad brush. Look at the DEC’s plan for wmu 6N, “no deer management objective.”Those of us with years of experience with actual boots on the ground in these units have little input or influence.

All of the NZ was not under deep snow ;we had hardly more than a dusting the whole season in 6A.No doubt the DEC just makes a wild guess on the deer kill and doe population.We are over-run with does and have not had DMP permits for four years.

Squash - Don't forget about the early ML season in the NZ and in some areas there is a late ML season. So it is more like a 7 or 8 week gun season. The NZ hunting camp culture is something that I grew up with myself on the Tug Hill.

They easily could take a week off the front of the gun season and make it bow only without disrupting the core of the gun season. The NZ bow season has to be the shortest bow season in the country? It is less than 3 weeks. Just pitiful.

Wildan, You are making my point, not all of the NZ was affected by deep early snow, that’s why the deer management scheme needs to be micro managed down to WMU specific.

Absolutely true all politics, and the insurance lobby. Who is in bed with the politicians. Unfortunately sportsmans input is really factored in. IMHO.

I agree most of 6K is checker bordered Ag lands, but The northwestern portion of 6K is absolutely big woods. From Swancotts Mills west to Osceola , and south to Empyville, it is unbroken forest. This is why the northwestern boundary needs to be moved south and that portion of 6K should be included in 6N. It’s obvious that The DEC did not consider management dynamics in their boundary selection, the Osceola Road was just a convienent boundary. There are other dynamics involved here, but it would be a lengthy explanation.

I spring and fall turkey hunt in 6A and 6G...not deer hunt. However, there's no better time to deer scout than before leaf-up in the spring. While turkey hunting I see what I see regarding deer sign up there, and it isn't a lot...plus I cover a lot of territory. My bow hunting is in 8A, 8G, 8C and 9N. The northern zone can't compare and, I suspect, never will. There may be micro-managed pockets of private land that hold goodly numbers of deer but I don't hunt them.

As an addendum I know there are a lot of northern zone deer hunters who come down into the southern zone to score as there are a lot of southern zone turkey hunters who travel to the northern zone to score.

Lets stop and aske what about Southern Zone numbers. Its always the Northern Zone

Don’t forget the Ag lobby. As a lifelong NYS resident and deer hunter, the NZ was always considered “ gun” country deer hunting and the SZ was where the archers went. The DEC has it’s faults, but it also is hamstrung by the politicians. Faults and all, deer hunting in my area of 7M is as good as it ever was. More bucks, more mature bucks and a population level that is acceptable. In the 60’s & 70’s you would see 50-75 antlerless deer for every 1 1/2 year old buck.

Not sure about your point, “ gun country” ? The SZ was always gun country as in shotgun, today it is almost all rifle country. Also, there are plenty of bow hunters hunting the NZ.

NYS regulations and season structures are the anti thesis of modern deer management. The list of problems is almost too long to list. But I will take a stab at them.

1) A Regular Northern zone season that runs over 40 days during the peak of the rut, in a region that low deer densities and poor habitat. ****Solution a statewide regular season that runs 10 days starting the first Saturday after Thanksgiving.

2) Southern Zone season that is over thirty days long and during last two weeks of the rut. ***** Solution. A state wide regular season that runs 10 days starting the first Saturday after thanksgiving

3) Either sex muzzleloader tags that may be used in DMU that have low or no quotas for antler-less deer. How in the world does that make sense? *** Solution. Tags are either sex in DMU thats have a quota for antler-less deer. In DMUs that do not have quota for antler-less deer the tag is good for legal bucks only. Or better still issue additional antler-less tags. **** Solution. Have 7 day season that runs next Saturday after the end of the regular season sate wide.

3) Either sex bow tags being used in DMU's that have no antler-less quotas. **** Solution. See above

4) Transferable DMPS? Who in their right mind thought this was good idea. You have guys drawing DMPS in units that have no intention of hunting in hopes that the can trade tags on line. ***** Solution. DMP's should be person and DMU specific.

5) Crossbows during the peak of the rut. We take a weapon that isn't archery and insert it into our archery season and then place in the peak of the rut were its already increased success rate will impact harvest the most. *** Solution. Make the first two weeks of the archery season concurrent with cross bow season.

6) Two buck limit state wide. Nothing except the season dates and lengths are as big a detriment to NY having a quality deer herd as the two buck limit for different weapons. **** Solution. One buck tag that maybe used in any season.

All common sense solutions, unfortunately there isn't much common sense when it comes too deer management in NY state.

Much of what Trial stateted is common sense, but some of it is not. Not all of the NZ is poor deer habitat, the St Lawrence , Black River, and Champlain Valleys are excellent habitat. Even some parts of the ADK’s and Tug Hill, where there is active forest management, have excellent summer range.

Those that advocate for a shorter gun season in the NZ, I question if they even hunt there ? Trial’s suggestion of a 10 day season opening after Thanksgiving makes me think he has never hunted much if any in the NZ, especially the central ADK’s or Tug Hill ?

I do not hunt the SZ, but do gun hunt in some of the wilderness areas of the ADK’s and the core of Tug Hill. I don’t think I’m going out on a limb saying you will receive little if any support for a shorter gun season in these areas from any hunters who hunt there. Should some of the WMU in the NZ have shorter gun seasons ? Maybe, but not all. That’s why again I say, deer management needs to be WMU specific.

Much of what Trial stateted is common sense, but some of it is not. Not all of the NZ is poor deer habitat, the St Lawrence , Black River, and Champlain Valleys are excellent habitat. Even some parts of the ADK’s and Tug Hill, where there is active forest management, have excellent summer range.

*********I concede that there are limited areas, rather fragmented pockets of better habitat. Thats tends to be true in most larger densely forested area. Those areas not only have a higher deer densities they also tend to have higher hunter densities. All the more reason to have shorter a more concentrated deer season. Limits stress on the herd and still provides ample hunter opportunity.

Those that advocate for a shorter gun season in the NZ, I question if they even hunt there ? Trial’s suggestion of a 10 day season opening after Thanksgiving makes me think he has never hunted much if any in the NZ, especially the central ADK’s or Tug Hill ?

I have spent significant amount of time deer hunting the northern zone spread out over the 24 years I have had deer licenses in NY State. East of Schroon Lake, Indian Lake, Speculator, Minerva( I killed my first northern zone buck in loch muller), The five ponds wilderness area. And to the north I have hunted in Malone. I have also ran hounds in the central ADKs, near watertown, and fort drum as well as all through the ST Lawrence Valley. I started running hounds in 1996. And while I don't profess to know all things Northern Zone, I think I have fair experience base to draw from an opinion.

I do not hunt the SZ, but do gun hunt in some of the wilderness areas of the ADK’s and the core of Tug Hill. I don’t think I’m going out on a limb saying you will receive little if any support for a shorter gun season in these areas from any hunters who hunt there.

I know for a fact that NZ hunters by and large wouldn't support it, based on conservations with some of those I hunted with, however that doesn't mean that we shouldn't make changes. If we are happy with a sub par status quo then by all means keep doing what we are doing. But if the goal is in fact to improve then we need to start looking at different model to draw upon and hope to garner different results.

Should some of the WMU in the NZ have shorter gun seasons ? Maybe, but not all. That’s why again I say, deer management needs to be WMU specific.

I wont even going to the logistical nightmare, unintended problems and budget suck that would happen if NY had DMU specific seasons. Suffice to say I disagree with the premise.

Pat. I agree that there is no reason to have closed coyote season in NY. We have an abundant population, very little trapping and hunting is negligible.

I also agree that its disingenuous to open bear seasons state wide with hopes of an increased harvest yet not give hunters the means to accomplish that end. We have advocated extensively for both baiting and the use of hounds to hunt bear. Both present a sporting fair chase endeavor that is proven to be a sound use of the resource and has history of good management from a biological perspective.

Well I stand corrected, you apparently hunt parts of the ADK’s . Although , Watertown and Fort Drum are not , central Adk’s, neither are encompassed by the blue line. Central ADK’s I think would be Blue Mountain Lake, Long Lake, Newcomb, Moose River Plains, etc.. I hunt the West Canada Lakes wilderness, Black River wild forest , as well as the 30,000 acre Corrigan TLP Tract on Tug Hill. All these areas recieve little hunting pressure a quarter of a mile off the road.

, WMU specific is how most of the western states manage big game, and even though it may be a logistical challenge it does work. I have also hunted self guided for many years in Northwestern Ontario near Dryden and Kenora, and there too it is unit specific, with different regs per unit. Not that confusing if one can read and navigate a map.

I did say that maybe some areas of the NZ need a shorter gun season, so some of your comments make my point. However, I agree, I don’t see anything changing in the near future with the DEC management scheme. But, more and more gun hunters are passing yearling bucks, so that is a plus. Good discussion though.

Unit based management is excellent where it has public support. The pit fall in NY and all of the Northeast for that matter would is historical use. The idea that a hunter in NY that they might not have buck tag for their hunting camp or favorite hunt area, or that same tag may not be also good behind their house down in Putnam county would be met with outrage from NY hunters. At this point I think the DEC would look at it as an insurmountable task to change historic use of the resource.

I hate to say it but over the last decade I have become so sour on NY hunting to the point of being unreasonable, or unfair. I guess when I can go out of state a hunt 10 days and see more deer/bucks in that time then I see in NY in ten years it changes your perspective.

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