Contributors to this thread:
Well I contacted the man in charge, with questions about my deer area in the UP, the idea of deer coming from the lower across the bridge to the upper, habitat, doe tags, baiting , crossbows etc
He answered me right away, and it resulted in a conversation about a lot of topics.. I was very impressed, and think MI has the right guy, calling the shots, that he can,,,,,
How about sharing some of what he said?
KPC
When can I shoot a doe in the U.P. again ????
Okay I will get back to my e mails with him and share what he said...... I want to do this, so I quote him directly.....
He explained to me, that he agrees with my assessment of an area of Iron County that needs does to be taken out, as well as some others. However, after suggestions are made, it does not make it thru the NRC,,,, he is confident it will change this coming season...........
He told me, that their assessment and security reasons for the bridge, is a reason they did not demand, deer, being boned out, coming across, not enough hunters from the UP, going to the lower to hunt, they do not presently see that as a problem.....
Baiting,,,, at this point it will not change in the UP. He said, there is a need to keep the kill up and participation in the hunt, and baiting is very popular in the UP, and at this time they have no plans on changing it......
Habitat,,,,, this he agrees is the key,,,, they are working aggressively on all state lands and have a coop program with the feds, going, to get the work that is needed done, as much and fast as they can.......
He invited me or any others to contact him direct with their areas or concerns if they can not get help from their local wildlife managers.......
He did not address registration,,,, I think a call in system, would give them more data
I told him, I would like to see during bow season, a choice to take either a doe or buck, with the one tag system......
"Baiting,,,, at this point it will not change in the UP. He said, there is a need to keep the kill up and participation in the hunt, and baiting is very popular in the UP, and at this time they have no plans on changing it......"
Interesting, to say the least.
KPC
Baiting..... Why couldn’t you say the exact same statement for the lower peninsula.....??
Big Bear,,,, I think because of the heavy presence of agriculture and food plotting would be my guess....... Personally I think we would be better off without it, and I would like to hear more saws, but I realize its a social thing........
I thought baiting was bad and that is why they made it illegal. It is either bad for the deer or it isn't.
Jon:
That's why I said what Mr. Mason said was "interesting, to say the least."
In my opinion, eliminating baiting has always been more of a political/societal issue than a biological one. Same with APRs. However, the proponents of both learned early on that in order to get what they wanted it had to become a biological issue.
KPC
again, I believe, that he thinks, that if they get rid of baiting, they will lose hunters, that they need,,,,,, to me that is a sad comment on todays hunters, but on the other hand, if baiting caused CWD, the UP should have had it a long time ago, because baiting has gone on forever........
I do not bait, but do not buy the comment it causes cwd,,,, deer are social, in the yards, etc,,,,, just do not buy the bait argument, that its the cause.... just not the way I choose to hunt........
If I were to attend a meeting I would ask him to explain that if baiting is so bad, why are they allowing it in the U. P.
I could very well be wrong but I think the DNR is going to have a heck of a dilemma on their hands.
Because of CWD, just when they are going to have to keep hunter interest, hunter numbers, and kill numbers up, all three are likely to drop due to the elimination of baiting.
ground hunter:
I don't think anyone suggested that baiting "causes" CWD, but they are concerned that baiting will help to spread CWD.
At least that's what they are saying for the LP. There must be a different kind of CWD, or a different kind of deer in the UP, because apparently that concern doesn't apply up there.
:)
KPC
You guys can do that very easily ,,, just e mail him
I have ground hunter, a number of times.
KPC
Thanks for sharing ground hunter.
The sad comment is that he is keeping baiting open in the UP to retain hunter numbers. The hell with the deer. Thats of course "if" baiting contributes to the disease.
The disease is very selective it won't infect the deer in the upper eating from bait piles only in the lower.
I personal dont have a problem with baiting. We cleared a small plot planted alfalfa and beats but they get destroyed. Most of my property is is such heavy cover without food/baiting it creates a kill oppertunity. Everyone has their own opinion and there is no magic cure. All I know kill or no kill shot my kids love sitting in the blind just watching them move around. But I guess baiting has helped peak my daughters intrest in hunting.
Bows the Way,,,, I think that is great. I know a lot of young hunters, who love to bait, get involved in picking the spots, etc, and just enjoy it.....
I like to hunt for the most part spot and stalk and on the ground. sometimes have a decoy attached to my bow... but I am retired and have lots of time,,,, but yep you guessed it, there are guys that hate that too, you must be sitting in a tree, or you are spooking their deer,,,, ha ha
I know a guy who just bashes everyone who baits,,,,, he controls lots of land, and puts in lots of food plots,,, oh by the way, when he goes to Canada, that baiting is different, he says,,,, LOL
Interesting info.
The baiting issue will continue to play out like it has for years.
I guess even though you don't usually have 5-10 deer on a bait pile at once continually that you can have multiple deer on a bait pile at once very frequently so if their close together more often in a small area that the odds of CWD spreading go up exponentially?
If there are no small bait piles all over the place then will that help curb the spread of the disease? The deer would be spread out more frequently and the odds of a deer with CWD spreading the disease would go down because said infected deer wont go to an easy small short term source of food?
I have not had the chance to follow this debate on baiting and CWD so whats the thought process on baiting and CWD as it pertains to its spread by the use of the 100's of thousands of bait piles that are used short term?
Long time no hear from Hammer. I hope all is well.
Hey there Happy. All is well here. Hope all is well with you too.
I think it's a choice just like APRS. If someone wants to bait or put in food plot go ahead who am I to say anything. Just like APRS i feel if you buy a tag you should be able to put it on whatever makes you happy. I personal dont think baiting which is short term maybe 2 o3 months contributes to the spread of CWD. If a feeder spreads corn out over a 10-20 foot diameter how is that different from someone who plants a 20-20 food plot of alfalfa. Both will attract lots of deer to a smaller area.
I am not against baiting at all. After all, it is the UP way. I would bet that 99% of the people in the UP bait. But, food plots are very different than baiting in regard to the possibility of spreading disease - IMHO. The biggest difference is size. The smallest food plot is typically 1/4 acre with most being close to an acre or more. That spreads the deer out far more. Second, most browsing is done above ground level as the deer are grabbing the plant from higher up and not mixing saliva on the ground. There has not been any proof that deer pass CWD via bait sites. Deer lick each other all the time and I'd bet they pass the disease more that way.
Imo mineral sites would be more concerning them a bait pile.
I would agree with mineral sites
The question that I have regarding the ban is with regards to its effectiveness at controlling the spread of CWD. We (the DNR) did the very same thing when TB was first discovered in the northern lower peninsula. To this day the decease is still present in the heard up there. It will NEVER be eliminated and it is my belief the same will be said for CWD. It is here to stay and halting the use of bait isn't going to change that. My understanding is it can be transferred thru urine also so unless we can potty train our deer herd banning the use of bait is another futile strategy.
Humans trying to control mother nature! Another fruitless exercise.
After I came back home (LP) from the Army, I baited only to see it rot. I asked myself why bait when I am sitting over fields of bait, soybeans and corn. I found the deer's bedding areas and their travel routes to the foods source. I never baited again. I have no issues with hunters that bait. Yes you will see deer on a bait pile but how many hunters have really killed a good buck over bait? After I moved west to Wyoming, there is no baiting in the state not even a salt lick. My son and I have done alright hunting out here. But we put boots on the ground and hunt. Many road hunters out here, and they will say there isn't the bucks that use to be here. I think deer learn from our behaviors. When I lived in MI I heard of CWD but that was something that was in deer out west not in MI. As far as I know there was never any baiting allowed in WY. There still is CWD in the heard out here. Don't know what the answer is to getting rid of this. Sure isn't eradicating all of the deer. They tried that in the TB zone and there is still TB in that area. Stupid to cut the baiting out in the lower but allow it in the upper. Where is their thought process on that? Michigan could be one of the best deer hunting states and would compete with the others, Iowa, Illinois, Missouri I won't mention the state to the south (GO BLUE)! If they would only manage it correctly.
Well for those of you that want to get your information out, on the upcoming deer rule changes, now is the time. They are asking for in put. In the latest Water and Woods magazine, Russ Mason has a short piece on deer changes, and in a nutshell, he says, that we should be concerned about what is good for the deer herd, and not so much for ourselves.
I agree with that premise. Where I believe Russ is missing the boat, is not allowing the choice on does or bucks with archery, in Iron County. From what I read it looks like there will be some doe hunts allowed, but more for the CWD effective zones.
I will forward my thoughts, and maybe in July some things will change. As far as baiting deer, I am not one to bait, but I do believe, that in the whole scheme of things, it does not lead to the spread of CWD, in any major way. I think that what the MDNR is afraid of, is less hunters etc, which is less license which is less revenue, coming in.
Also the economic impact on buisnesses etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my only contention is the full inclusion of cross bows, for healthy hunters under 65, but that is a game that I will concede I lost........
So forward your thoughts to the open process right now, as they are asking for.
"If a feeder spreads corn out over a 10-20 foot diameter how is that different from someone who plants a 20-20 food plot of alfalfa."
Or a white oak dropping acorns, or an apple tree dropping apples, or, or, or...
KPC
https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/271186/1-s2.0-S0167587713X00121/1-s2.0-S0167587713002894/main.pdf?x-amz-security-token=AgoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEM3%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCIQCe1nbtzy90tmekcAr%2F6xtb5S%2FskGHdlQTkxUmhg9dibgIgWzN2DMdlpS8uK6S7t1xEEeox0728mEksjRLMVprS06Eq4wMI1f%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARACGgwwNTkwMDM1NDY4NjUiDOLB3x%2F8nnSx1UzIjiq3Ax%2BBHbZJiV7VjB5Z7h2qc5f7X6zG0FMISy%2F8dIkSPfmEHvyas2cKN3GTfxnb1q5TNqnSJRtql4XcBnpDCfWuE9a1yjFGWR%2B01MgJdJUFUHMkC7wbcOcihLIzbnlHEk%2BD3Clm0kTSu0LexkcQmK%2BAc%2BElksmMZi2%2Flp%2BIDPYB2JYvIHAieQAE5mT4RmLLY28i%2ByAplguU%2FsXJSFyAdOvYm6qb7X2E8mdhyT6L0TT89DAw3jYiNady1ETJZfJ9JkYDTxMUYbs3Hr00xNOOIF9GZOGHiWoouTco1gM5McWk3ZzwP2Iu0hlMN%2F84WWLzECl%2BzNeweXaz2CGgKKGmvACoZEdPSsOR8bIJGomQCifYn5rvog60ikY6AILjEr3hh%2FHbDxi9n9CLboNv8GUKjkS3oD%2BQIVeKb7JBikYfWg1amxN0S9nC8wGG0G24Lnq4DzezV50bh%2FQ2VMStdbAmieR7RQWm85SQTsmg21b6ty%2BFFn4Y6ULiUpV46lwAE5qnuQyINCvxkp13WGkjhe4Zj%2Fz70n3jrSy9T6SGCu1SINsDj%2BUoeIJrHMb2Lg1We3nHTsMvHuaQw0P0l5cwz8Kf5wU6tAE0pUDifxPZgcTfJKKl6%2B1ytme8PLLEhmLr3h12EzCiiAWMb6wlBHRnytzY%2FDse9wA9V6EmunoWekH%2F5YkwpRKQOiOONQKyLoQo6Xj9a4dn%2BE15aEMkvooJAW8Ql2jlEyM2grv1%2F4PC5lrRZjqyEc2sfbYE0KKe9SCcwpusPNQsr5fNPlRhAh0pnvoiQa22X7UPklLxYD5LF8paiRUnZl9tkHCG0WGyGFGrc16lkOxrX0A4yuo%3D&AWSAccessKeyId=ASIAQ3PHCVTYYXK7ZNFE&Expires=1558706622&Signature=z1eIbmYpDK9A11DsOnQdgOBJWxA%3D&hash=ef89523ea9db7d595df5d67af5a3e0650bfb11ade13892c0948c2673a03c9c2d&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S0167587713002894&tid=spdf-09bbd2b0-6149-4634-b8c3-bfccf86d3650&sid=393f4d6386066640701bb6a001a92738dbe0gxrqa&type=client
Sorry for the long link, but an interesting article nonetheless. The best thing we can do as hunters is to read scientific articles such as this. Don't rely on your buddy's opinion because of what he heard from his/her buddy. This is just one of the many articles out there about CWD and there will continue to be more published. In this article, the authors make the point that public support for CWD management programs will continue to rise as data makes itself more available.
Unfortunately/fortunately (depending on how you look at it), the data only makes itself available when programs such as government culling or bait bans are executed. We won't know if they work unless we try, and I think that is the point we are at here in Michigan, and in every other state where CWD is. There is no known cure for CWD, and every state has their own way of dealing with it. Continually collecting data on these programs and how successful/unsuccessful they are is the only way we will find a cure or prevention.
I am not naive to the public concern for a reduction to the deer population or loss of interest because baiting makes hunting easier, but at this point, the data suggests that using culling or preventative options like bait bans are the best ways to control CWD.
Don't be afraid to voice your opinion, but also don't be afraid to study the scientific data about why these regulations are being put into place.
I agree with you, but I just put in some small food plots, and what is the difference? Someone has to show me where bait bans had any affect to control CWD,,,,, I have yet to see it...................
I also have land in SW Wis, ground zero for that state for CWD, why there is so much of it, in Iowa County no one knows, and they culled heavy, for awhile, with no effect to the issue, except a deer slaughter
Now Wis wants to put a bounty on deer, they want to pay you, for any deer testing positive for CWD????
In all the years of hunting MI has never sent me a survey of what I killed and where. If I do not volunteer the information to the Crystal Falls office, they would have no idea, someone has to explain to me, without registration, how they ever know what is really shot and where......
I am in their corner, I like MDNR, but I have to wonder at times
I do believe in wildlife science and not political science,,,,,,,, someone should tell that to UP Whitetails
Interesting article catchindeers24, a lot to digest there.
Thanks for posting.
KPC
Ground Hunter,
Do you hunt in the new surveillance area in the UP? If not, that's why it's unlikely that you receive a survey. The surveys are sent to only a fraction of the Michigan hunting population. Unfortunately, it's 1) expensive to send a survey to every Michigan hunter and 2) the response rate is extremely low. That's just the nature of surveys, no matter if they're wildlife surveys or surveys about your opinion on government candidates.
So that's where voluntary information about every harvest is valuable. The more information they have to work with, the more vigilant they can be about concerning issues like CWD. In your case, checking a deer wherever you hunt even if it's outside the CWD surveillance area is still valuable. It will be especially valuable if in the coming years if new, quicker tests or do-it-yourself tests for CWD become available. But for now, voluntary harvest checks still help.
And to your point about wildlife vs. political science...I'm not sure anybody has an answer to that. You've already heard my opinion...if more people listen to the wildlife science, more people will politically back it. But political power has a lot more say than wildlife science does, and not enough people have enough knowledge about wildlife science in my opinion.
We all fight in the same corner, we want what is best for the deer herd. But it's definitely a tough battle.
KPC,
These scientific articles are always a ton to digest. I've read hundreds of them and still have to reread every time because of the complexity.
Which brings up a point that these articles aren't meant for lay man's terms. I think that's why many people aren't educated about the true science behind all of this. It's just too damn hard to read and understand for most LOL
Thanks
simple answer to me, is to have registration, I never understood, why they do not....
"Which brings up a point that these articles aren't meant for lay man's terms. I think that's why many people aren't educated about the true science behind all of this. It's just too damn hard to read and understand for most LOL."
I agree. Unfortunately, the complex nature of the "science" also makes it ripe for those willing to manipulate it in order to advance a certain agenda. We saw that VERY clearly during the APR debates. CWD is no different.
KPC
