Is Bowhunter education required ?
Kansas
Are NR's required to have bowhunter education to bowhunt KS?
Thanks Jack
No but it should be. Too many bucks lost every year.
Says the guy that bragged about hitting a running buck in the head from 400 yards. Or was it 500? Don’t mind our resident rifle hunter Jack. No you don’t need Bowhunter Ed.
He died right there as did the last three bucks I shot with a bow smartass.
If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. No need to get feisty when you get called out, fella.
It should be is right. I took the class with my son @42 in Colorado in 1989. I didn't have to cause I was old then. The youth of today at least around here need it for nothing more that to teach how to be an ethical hunter. I've had first hand experience with this here in my own county. No hunter needs a person without ethics setting a stand with in 50 yards of another hunter and think it is perfectly ok to do that to a another person. How about shot placement and blood trailing taught in BE. State regs. are gone over . Too many know it all in the woods and not enough can do it all . My2cents worth. Besides if you plan on ever hunting in another state you will probably need a Bowhunting Ed certificate.
Todays computer raised kids demand instant satisfaction and results. Too much trouble to do BE the right way.
Now that crossbows are legal and shoot like a rifle, there’s no need for “bow”hunter education. Regular hunter safety will suffice.
They did away with it for one reason, it made it harder for someone to buy a tag. Without BE they sell more tags. Same reason for dropping the age requirement. We should still have both.
West, you should be ashamed thinking like that. sarcasm..........
Cherney- How about You grab a long bow and we'll have us a contest, or how about you stop thinking your a professional because you shoot bucks with milk still on their lips?
I wish I'd have had the opportunity when I started. I was self taught and made a ton of mistakes the first few years. I still remember my very first hunt. I had made a plywood seat for an aluminum extension ladder and painted it camo. I rode the school bus to our friend's ranch and got in the stand with an hour till sunset. I had 3 does come under me in my very first sit but they winded me and left. I literally had no idea how to hunt the wind or that the deer's scapula would stop an arrow. I was 14 and shot a Browning 50# bow.
Bring back age requirements, do away with the "anyseason" tag, require BE (especially because crossbows are legal!), and require harvest reports for data collection.
How about you stop being a little prick? I didn't say anything that would suggest I am a professional..ever. All we are asking is that you stop being a douche. Is that too much to ask?
Some day they will have a person in diapers on film killing a buck. Does this help us all? Small children cannot process what they have just done.
I was just thinking you guys could send each other PM's, but then figured a thread meltdown might be kind of fun to watch. :)
I personally think kids should hunt... every 8yr old should have a Red Rider BB gun, a bird feeder in the yard, and a "no X-box in the daylight" rule! 14yrs is a great age to let them start chasing deer with a weapon in hand and 16yrs is a great age to let them carry a rifle. Its interesting to me that when I was younger and damn near everybody had guns... they weren't considered evil (just a tool), they were proudly displayed, a kid wouldn't worry about having a shotgun in his truck in the school parking lot, etc... that hunting required an age limit. Now that half the nation things guns are the root of all evil and that just owning one can change your psychology and make you prone to murder that lots of states have dropped the age limits to hunting with a gun. When we are talking regulations and politics there's lots of things that just don't make sense.
I started hunting (with a gun) when I was 7. The idea of an age limit is absurd. I intend to start my kids at a similar age. It’s the responsibility of the parent/ guardian to determine if a youngster is ready to start hunting, not the state.
We had an age limit on big game hunting until 2005. It was dropped for one reason.
Well I’m glad it was. Preventing kids from hunting isn’t a good thing.
Got my first rifle at eight but could not use it without an adult till thirteen. All these films now with little kids in blinds with tripods and crossguns don't seem right. Still don't think the really young ones get what they have done.
If thought for a second I was being a prick, then you must be pretty soft. I'll take you seriously when you can kill a mature buck. Now, I'm being a prick.
It did not prevent kids from hunting, it prevented them from hunting big game only.
I guess it is too much to ask. Maybe someday.
I'm proud to say that, even though I was past the requirement age, I took Bowhunter Ed. Both of my boys took it and even after the requirement was dropped, two of my granddaughters took the course.
I started my kids young and wish I would have waited for big game. Both boys hunt but are not passionate about it. My daughter ehh she is a teen you never know. I think a kid should be able to hunt when their parents believe it's time. I also believe a kid should not be able to get a buck tag until Hunters Safety course can be taken and passed. They can shoot does until then, but I bet alot of them would not be out in the field as much.
Matte I think part of the reason we are seeing hunter numbers drop is burn out. Much like little league baseball, youth basketball, youth football, etc kids suffer burnout. And we have burned them out hunting as well starting them at age 7. A 7 year old kid can not process what killing a deer is. Letting them tag along at 7 on a hunt or 2 is one thing. But dragging them out hunting and shooting at something is totally different. YOU CAN'T LIVE THROUGH THEM. Parents don't recognize burnout and are the worst at seeing it before it is too late. Let a kid have a little maturity and decide for themselves if hunting is for them. We have a young fellow on this thread who has already decided that his kids will hunt at age 7 just because he did. Not a good idea. I teach 300 plus elementary students everyday. They simply are not ready in 1st and 2nd grade. A bb gun is a kids best friend, not shotgun, not a high power, not a crossbow that they can't load til they are 16. I didn't mention bow because a kid doesn't have the draw length to hunt effectively until age 12.
MDW I did too. I was in my 30's when I took it. A huge mistake to drop it. Another financial decision by our great legislature towards conservation.
Amen clip I killed quail with a bb gun as a kid moved to a 410 and a 22 rabbit squirrel bulldog etc were on my hit list as a kid. My mom always said if i cleaned it she would cook it haha. Didn't shoot my first deer till age22,
Quail and Bullfrogs are about the best meat there is, second only to Crappie!!!!!!!!! Deer is right down there with Prairie Chicken and Skunk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mmmmm, bulldog! Lol. And you guys nailed it with quail, froglegs, and crappie. Great stuff. Speaking of which... I was catching a ton of crappie this time a year ago. Might have to find some open water tomorrow!
I'm old, it's hard to understand the instant gratification and entitlement generations. I'm fine with telling a kid "no, not until you've earned it...", whether that means waiting until a certain age (driver's license, drinking, military, etc.), until you've passed a test, or until the boss simply says yes. I'm big on progressions in life. Your first job should sort of suck and have low pay. Your first truck should break all the time and drink gas like it's lemon-aid. Your first girlfriend should only let you hold hands on the first date. Etc. Just my opinion though and I may come from a different background than others reading this. I truly feel the state didn't drop the age requirements to create better hunters or help parents.
Haha that's so true bullfrog are almost gone use to pond hop and get fifteen to twenty a day when we were kids you almost never see them now
Jason your so right kids today don't earn anything it's just given to then that's why they have no appreciation do any thing even the animal they just kilked
Hunted Poland a couple years ago. I really believe we should copy their hunter Ed requirements. Years worth of rigorous testing (including a shooting assessment as well as animal age assessment) and must accompany a mentor for 2 years before shooting an antlered/horned animal.
They did recently make a change I would NOT agree with... kids can’t hunt or even go hunting with their parents until they are 18... “Green Party” has taken some serious control of the government over there.
Thanks guys the best I can tell from this thread BE is NOT required, correct?
Jeff, I would like my kids to start hunting at a similar age as I did, but if I don’t believe they’re ready, or they don’t seem interested, then I’ll wait awhile. I started hunting at such a young age, and I never got burned out in the slightest. I understand where you’re coming from though. I just don’t think it should be the states decision on when a child is old enough to hunt.
Hypothetical question then. Should youth have to pay the same as an adult for hunting liscense and big game tags?
Matt, I say yes. And I'll go a step further and say they should hunt the same season's as adults too.
Agree with Catscratch. Even as a parent and as an educator... I see no need for a separate youth season.
Go ahead and argue hunter recruitment. I will not agree that it works until I see statistics from a long-term study. Please advise.
They've been letting toddlers hunt for how long now and hunter numbers are still declining?
But are deer hunters declining?
Thanks for the replies guys/gals .
Purely anecdotal but I teach high school and it sure doesn’t seem like there are as many hunting as when I graduated 20 years ago. Not even close. I’m in a suburban/rural area.
Quailhunter, Maybe it's because of the electronic age. I would bet my money on it. I have 6 grand kids all of which can take their fingers off the phone or I pad just long enough to go to the bathroom or eat.
That definitely has a lot to do with it.
Quailhunter, I started teaching in 2003. For the first couple of years the opening Wednesday of Rifle season might as well have been a holiday. I bet more than 50% of the kids I taught missed at least half a day of school opening day. A couple of years later it started to become rare for a kid to miss school on opening day. I asked several kids who had hunted previous years why they weren't hunting now... EVERYTIME the answer was "dad lost his place to hunt", "grandpa is leasing out the family land", "so and so has guys coming in from TX, Louisiana, PA, Michigan, etc and we can't hunt this year". Leasing killed youth hunting here. It wasn't social media, it wasn't phones, it wasn't x-box, it was leasing plain and simple... when dad lost his hunting ground the kids lost their hunting ground. The transition was heartbreaking. These kids grew up hunting as still wanted to hunt. A very small percentage of KS kids are growing up hunting now compared to 15yrs ago. The kids that hunt now have long term established land and will continue to get to hunt, it's just not a high percentage anymore.
^^^^^^ this is why baiting is so hurtful
Glad we have some fellow teachers on here. I think we have 3 kids who hunt in our building of 300. Having hunter ed as part of my pe classes is something that we have talked about . Hope it happens.
Friend of mine teaches in Natoma and they teach hunters ed
It should be. There are far more things to consider that are not covered in the basic Hunter Education Class and with those being mostly On-line classes with one day of written and on hands learning. There is far to much to be covered.
I believe it's mandatory in OK, all three of my sisters kids(Lenapah area) had to take it and other outdoor courses, should be here as well!
Cherney, I'm not sure I follow. Do you think hunters would drop their KS leases if they couldn't bait? What about guides... would they gobble up less land if they couldn't bait for their clients?
No bait means less mature bucks on camera (and likely less killed)...less mature bucks on camera means less interest in $3,000 hunts on marginal pieces of ground...less interest in $3,000 hunts on marginal pieces of ground means more marginal pieces of ground for youth and dads to take their kids out on to learn how to hunt...
I can see the logic in that, but not sure I think it would actually happen that way. The land I bowhunt was leased (for rifle season) for quite a few years and they never once brought a bag of corn with them. They were die-hard hunters who just wanted a chance at something they couldn't find in their home state. They would hunt from sun-up until sundown the entire time there were here, which was always the better part of a week. Nice guys and hard hunters. I think the lazy would step out or cheat, and the others would fill in.
There may be as much interest. I could be wrong that baiting has an impact, but I know several outfitters that sell 10+ hunts a year and lease 3,000+ acres each. That's a lot of land being claimed up that is now off limits to local guys. I'm not knocking the guys trying to make a living or the farmer/rancher for increasing his income, it's just that I selfishly don't like the end result and I don't believe they would be able to sell that many hunts without the bait, and if they can't sell as many hunts they likely wouldn't be able to lease as much ground. Like you said, individual guys may fill in those gaps by leasing 160 acres each instead of paying the outfitter for the hunt.
The trailcam logic makes a lot sense! No way to advertise giant deer would make a huge difference in how valuable the hunt was.
You'd still have extremely skilled guides, guys like Thornton, that kill big bucks every year without it. They'd probably still have thriving businesses and a good chunk of leased ground. But I bet there are a lot of outfitters who are bad hunters, like myself, who couldn't kill big bucks without bait no matter how hard they tried.
Not a requirement here unless it’s changed but quite a few schools have incorporated it into their outdoor ed programs as well as making the hunter safety course part of it.. Archery in schools program is actually pretty popular in Oklahoma and the ODWC has done a good job helping that get off the ground. I’ve taught high school for 18 years. They’ve changed a lot since I started. I’m back in my hometown and there aren’t very many that hunt anymore.
I think I’m the only one in town hauling around bird dogs.
If leasing and access are the huge problem...why are hunter numbers also dropping in states with huge amounts of public lands?
Because baiting is illegal on public lands, right Sito? Probably cost of equipment. It cost $150 for youth football now. Cell phones take priority.
I'd still bet on it, would take a few years...but quite honestly I hope I'm wrong. When people learn to actually hunt again they'll enjoy it so much more, whether they fill a tag or not!
Decrease in family size, urbanization, cost...
Not everyone was a trapper or mountain man. I think numbers for all types of land based sports and entertainment have decreased by huge amounts. Entertainment places from golf courses to Xtreme Gocart tracks are closing teams are hosting open try outs to fill roosters as not enough youth are joining. Youth football participation are down 38%. What will this mean to the NFL in 20 years? Believe me they are worried as much as we are about the future.
People are born with less testosterone these days.
Sito do you use robo ducks?
I don't own any but I've hunted over them, why? I do have a "Mojo" dove decoy. Is this supposed to be on the waterfowl thread Matt?
No. The way you rail on people for using corn and not hunting the right way is the same way alot of hardcore waterfowlers feel. Just tired of listening to you be a hypocrite.
Dude, you can't eat a decoy...use your brain.
Use your brain. Just like corn it gives people like your buddy Mike a chance to be successful without any skill. Just like corn. Only difference is you don't hold ducks in the same regard as deer so you will happily sit with 2 spinners wings flapping and brag about it. You are a fucking hypocrite and this is my last post on this site. Oh here is your buddy wanting to know why his remotes wont work. Its cool to have gadgets on remotes help you kill stuff huh? http://refugeforums.com/threads/baby-mojo-issue.1043533/
Cherney is right on about baiting and outfitters.
I had to laugh when someone mentioned some local outfitters on this page a few weeks ago as “reputable”.... we farm some of the ground they lease. You won’t find a tree stand that doesn’t have a Moultrie feeder strapped to a tree within 20 yards of the stand... guaranteed. The other dumps piles as high as the stand. I have never understood the enjoyment in any of that.
I’d venture to say 90%+ of outfitters bait heavily rather than actually scout/hunt... unfortunately, it has forced a lot of people into using the same tactics. When an outfitter leases extremely marginal (or very poor) ground next to awesome ground and pulls multiple deer off with bait to be killed(many bucks from 3-5 years old), leaves a horrible taste in the other guys mouth. “Can’t beat them join them” mentality... to which I have fallen victim.
Always knew there was something just not quite right with you Matt, safe travels.
P.S. For the record, Mike didn't have a decoy out when he killed his buck so I'm not sure where that came from. Also, Mike studied wind and stand locations more than anybody I've ever taken before...anybody. He's a brilliant guy, and a nice guy, and he doesn't have to come here and defend himself from someone who would act in that manner.
Be a man and come at me if you have an issue with me, if you feel you must use profane language send it in a PM...just be a man.
I’d venture to say that a lot of great outdoorsmen don’t regard a lot of wildlife the same as the whitetail deer.
I’ve hunted just about every species of animal that Kansas has to offer (excluding mule deer), love them all, but the whitetail is the top of my list of favorite game to pursue. I’d rank elk right there with the whitetail, but my chances of ever doing that again in Kansas is slim to none.
Ray you need to hunt more pheasants. A black dog chasing pheasants is as fun as it gets. You can do it all day long, not just dusk and dawn. If I never shot or seen another deer the rest of my life I would be fine with it as long as I could hunt pheasants with a labrador.
West, it’s been years since I’ve been. Used to go every year when my grandpa was still living. My dad, brothers, grandpa and a bunch of his friends would go. We’d stay at an old farmstead... great breakfast, tons of laughs, a thousand memories. Probably some of my favorite memories honestly... don’t miss the pheasant farts though. I would love to go back, but wouldn’t even know where to start honestly. I was a kid when we went and I have no connections with landowners like my grandpa did. Guess I need to put in some groundwork.
Ducks... can’t seem to get into that for some reason. Been a few times with good success. I’ve got some great places to go, but I really don’t like to eat them.
Used to love to quail hunt as well. We had a great Brittany... a lot of fun to watch. There’s so few of them anymore that I just can’t bring myself to kill one. I think they are getting better though.
Gonna be a long off season...
What’s Missouri doing correctly Writer? The 1/8 of a cent sales tax? Purchasing more public land? Managing for opportunity over quality?
Why is it we always see hunter numbers are dropping? Is this stance related to per capita? Looking back in time it seems numbers have risen.
Ray, you have connections. Just let me know if you want to shoot a few sometime.
Dare you to click on that link lol
If there were more hunter ed instructors that might help also,I taught for years and putting on classes wasn't issue it was driving across state to to get recertified to teach.They have some online programs now and I should get back in it
Oklahoma forum is boring as S! Glad there's entertainment up here to the North. F bombs, pricks and more... nice!
Was on the first year it was offered and taught for 20 years. Don't remember having to recertify. The young'ns now want instant gratification on line, don't want to waste three evenings.
There would be less wounded deer for sure. I was self-taught and had my share of poor hits. I wish it was mandatory for any first time bow hunter.
How is missing a deer cleanly a problem due to brush? At least I'm not shooting at the tiny deer you kill.
Thank goodness you guys are here to keep me and Rick entertained. Our site died years ago. I’m only 45 minutes from Kansas so I’m settling in here.
Thornton,
Did you shoot at the pond dam before or after you tried to shoot through the brush at that GIANT buck? Are you going to be at the KBA Banquet? Maybe we could laugh about it over a beer?
Quinn, if you followed my hunt, I practiced first. Maybe I have learned my lesson about being transparent on my semi live hunts? I'm glad I missed him due to getting a much larger and older buck late in the season. I also figured out how to sneak in that ravine with a south wind that day, something I'd never been able to do in 20 years on that property. As for the beer, I'd definitely take one
A little confused here since I used to teach BHE. If I understand this correctly, it is now ethical to take low percentage shots as long as it is a trophy quality animal, or you miss cleanly and harvesting of non-trophy quality animals is something to be ashamed of?
Since Chad is buying Jason a beer, I'll buy you one, Frank.
Thanks Patrick, but I am not a member of the KBA. If you are ever in the Miami county area let me know. But I drink Crown Royal Special Reserve:-)
Dave, if I remember right, the recertifying only came about AFTER bowhunter Ed. got lumped in with regular hunter ed. The last three times I was to re-up, the class was on the other end of the state. They finally dropped me.
Ethical is relative Frank, and it belongs to an individual's beliefs and capabilities. I missed that buck in the ravine clean and my windage was near perfect midline despite having to compensate due to no release. The best of the best miss bucks all the time or cripple them. I suppose all the deer that the trad guys miss shouldn't have been shot at due to them being "low percentage shots"? One of the Wensel Bros had that happen this year. I had a perfect shot except for the twigs and I was still more accurate than when I started 25 years ago with no sights on my bow. Everything is a guess. How do you know how to lead a crossing pheasant at 40 yards? 3 feet? 5 feet? Half the long range sniper shots have several misses before a connection. I only replied to a jab and I honestly don't care what Cherney shoots. I hope he gets a big one this year.
Jason,
Maybe you believe what you just wrote, I don't.
I don't miss or cripple bucks "all the time", and don't hunt with anyone who does.
Trad guys, who are ethical, are skilled and practiced so their shots are no more low percentage than a person with a crossbow. The only deer I ever shot at with my recurve, a doe, I did not recover. I never hunted again with that bow, I consider it unethical for me to do so. When I release an arrow from my compound today I fully expect a dead animal.
One of the justifications for unethical behavior is to point out others do worse actions. If this was an acceptable approach all of us could justify just about anything by pointing to Hitler. It is not acceptable.
Like everyone, I have failed to live up to high standards on occasion. Glad I have folks like my wife who help me do better.
A 40 yard shot through brush without a release, even though practiced a few times, what do you think young BHE students would say? How about antis or the general public? And to be frank with you, where you think that arrow flew is probably different than where it actually did.
That buck, by your own admission, was not top end. If you would have killed him your buck season in KS would have been over. Would you still have ground to mock another hunter? That jab you took is not the first time you chided him for size.
I agree with you that BHE should still be required, but for a different reason. I disagree that wounding deer happens all the time. Get a different circle of friends if it happens in your group. What probably drives a good portion of wounds that do occur are people wanting to be heros and have bragging rights sitting behind a big set of antlers wearing a smirk.
Agree with Frank.
I’ve heard of too many people taking risky shots because of rack size only to wound the deer. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. I’m pretty sure ethics are not subjective.
If I miss a buck it’s not because I wasn’t prepared for the shot or wasn’t using the equipment needed. I don’t take low percentage shots. In my mind, when I release an arrow that arrow will hit its mark. That comes from confidence built through hours of practice and knowing my equipment. Absolutely no guessing when I release.... none.
Side note - Recently I’ve heard a couple “hunters” bragging about trying to hit a buck with their truck because it was a monster. They obviously had faith in their equipment and truly believed it to be ethical.
I don’t hang out with such people.
Frank, I'm tired of you and your remarks that make you look like you're trying to be some sort of elitist, Mr. " I drink "Crown Royal Special Reserve". The best of the best on here have wounded multiple elk, and/or deer. I would have gladly tagged that buck, and I spent considerable time moving into a position of a shooting window. I did not blindly release an arrow into the brush. I'd really like to see you stalk a buck, or any buck for that matter. My guess is, you sit in a tree, therefore you can pick your shots long before a buck walks by to your probable bait pile. Cherney has been making jabs for over a year now and that was my retort. Feel free to scroll backwards to see that he made the first jab.
Jason,
Glad to see your comments here are more tame than the two PMs you sent me. So only elitist drink CR SR? Probable bait piles? Winning more friends and influencing people I see:-)
Yes, I like tree stand/blind hunting, but not over bait piles. I could stalk deer and attempt 40 yard shots through brush, but I don't because I believe it to be unethical and that is without being without my release.
Once again Jason you attempt to make your way the Superman way. You shoot bigger bucks, you stalk, you are so much better.
I hope you don't tire as easy hunting as you do debating. I seldom post on the KS Forum. You would have gladly tagged a buck that was no bigger than the trophy photo posted by Cherney that you spanked him for shooting small bucks?
Your next move will no doubt be to challenge me at something. If you send it in a PM I will post it.
So I will challenge you first, try and be more ethical yourself when hunting instead of pointing out how terrible everyone else is at wounding stuff. The best having wounded multiple animals over decades long careers is not the same as wounding and crippling all the time. The best would know it was time to quit if they did that.
As predicted, here is the response;
"Frank, you're a fat POS that really wouldn't say a word if I met you face to face. I didn't tell you that for you to feel sorry for me. Quite the opposite, it was your warning to leave me alone and that shows just how much you think you know about me. You're old, you're fat, and I won't tolerate your bullying behavior. Cherney and I spoke in PM like real men rather than your stupid tactic of jabbing in order to get your buddies on board. I have 3 hunting partners I met on here I hunt with regularly and I don't care to join your good ole' boy club. I'll continue to outhunt you and post my hunts so assholes like you can just sit back and be jealous . I'd be glad to best you at any weapon including long bow.
Yes, I am old, and over-weight. But I will say anything I have said to you here or in a PM to your face. You are not threatening me physically are you Jason? I never warned you to leave me alone, you did that to me and I can post the PM for proof if you want.
I bet you could out shoot me with any weapon, probably beat an old man up as well;-) At the end of all that all you will do is prove what I already think.
Jason,
There are no buddies to get on board with what I have said. One, ONE, person PMed me in agreement and I have no idea who they are or what state they reside in. I can care less about what others think, I posted my own opinion without checking with anyone. It's called being a man.
There is not a hunt you can post that will make me jealous. I don't measure happiness with a tape, but the experience I have had. I shot a button buck in the cold and snow and posted it on the main Forum. The experience was great! A lot of guys chimed in and said they enjoyed it and wished me well. Others just think differently than you do. What gets old is your threats whenever some one disagrees with you or criticizes you.
You took a highly questionable shot at a buck that you have mocked others for shooting. After this you post how others need BHE because they cripple deer all the time. Like one other person I found it to be hypocrisy. That other person I have never communicated with, other than their post offering to buy me a beer. The CR comment was in fun. Besides being old and fat I am a diabetic who doesn't drink.
Once again Frank, you are spineless. You post everything to gather support for your cause even though you threatened me several months ago on the nat'l forum when we disagreed and you called me a punk first before I ever said anything negative to you. I stand by all my statements and could honestly care less what you think. I'm curious if the institution you teach at would wonder what's up with your online attacks while you're on the clock?
Another threat Jason? I am not on the clock. And I see no attack here, just my opinion and facts. Everyone can see who is threatening who.
I don't remember an exchange on the main forum, but from your behavior in this exchange the descriptive seems warranted.
I am not trying to get anyone's support. Can you not understand that I stated my opinions? Posting questionable shots on a major blog and stating that many hunters cripple and wound deer is the norm does not help our cause and alienates folks needlessly. I, nor hunters I know, wound and cripple with any regularity. Quite the opposite, it is unusual when it happens.
I was 100% transparent in my hunts all year including my mistakes and I stated very plainly I would have benefitted from bowhunting education. I'm not sure any of that is hypocrisy. The numbers don't lie, bowhunting wounds 18% on the low end. Other surveys indicate up to 50%.
Maybe being less transparent about shooting 40 yards through brush without a release after knowing with practice that your impact at 30 yards was a good 7" off would be a wiser choice? Just say you missed for you what is normally a chip shot by unseen twig that interrupted the arrow's flight. Still true, and not providing any ammo to those who hate our activity.
JMO, please don't assume anyone agrees with me or that I am trying to get anyone on my side. And no need to threaten me, I concede you are the better shooter, hunter, even younger and not fat;-)
I'm done arguing. I stand by what I did, and I'm still glad it was a clean miss. I could hit a leaf at 30 yards adjusting for not having a release. It's hard enough to get in range of 1 buck in open country let alone 3. It was one of best stalks I had all year even though I missed. Several others on here who are very respected including the owner who crippled a bull and got a helicopter to look for it, the 170" 2 years ago that took hours to expire because of a bad hit, the guys asking for hounds, and the list goes on.
Is anyone else tired of this crap!!! Do it all on PM's. PLEASE
Probably best for everyone to stop arguing. As the late great Mark Twain said....
This is how my students solve their problems.
Icould hit a leaf at 30 yards adjusting for not having a release.
I think you can too. You hit a twig at 40 yards which is smaller than a leaf, so there's the proof.
;-)
Geez, and all these years we thought Kyle and I were the biggest jerks on Kansas Bowsite. We need to step up our games!
Who you taking shots at writer?
Thanks, Frank. That's a relief.
Chern...mostly Kyle and me.
All is good Mike. I accepted being called a fat, old man so I hope you know I am kidding. Just what I grew up with, the guys I hung around and still do. We bust each other's chops. I try to give as good as I receive. Humor like that works better in person but I figured enough of you know me by now.
Chern, the shot was at myself and Jason, but Mike didn't realize he launched a boomerang;-)
Dave, I see you are still spreading your good cheer!
The Jerk is one of my all-time favorite movies
No, Frank, I'm pretty sure I know my intentions. Kyle and I have joked (humor) about being the two biggest jerks on the site. We both can be very good at it.
Kyle, hope you're still enjoying your special purpose. I haven't gotten a new phone book in years.
Well that escalated quickly.
This thread needs a little of this!
Only a few weeks away from Bracketology and we can get this forum back on track! Sito will be focused on the NIT.
Cats won’t even be in the CBI
Haven’t been excited about Cowboy basketball in a long time....
Great school, just not consistent in athletics.
agreed. Saw some good basketball when I was there.
3 weeks and I will get the link posted again. I think we should have everyone pitch in $10 to enter this year. Winner would have enough for a nice dozen of arrows.
What's up with WSU, Jeff? Don't get to watch them since we're in NE Kansas.
I would have to disagree. I feel Hunter Education and Bowhunter Education are very beneficial and could save a lot of new and first time Hunters and Bowhunters from making mistakes that many have made. Bowhunter Education is also required in some states for bowhunting such as Alaska.
This website gave some data for deer lost to archery, and tool to help find them. Oklahoma did a study that showed much higher loss rates. I believe if bowhunting education was required, these number would be much lower.
https://pro-tracker.com/923-2/
Is that thing legal in KS? I would venture to guess that it would lead to more injured animals.
Copied your link here Thornton.
This is an ad for a pro-tracker? I find a 50% wounding rate simply ridiculous! And if this were true we have a bigger problem than BHE not being taught. I killed 5 deer this year and last, all dead within sight, all archery. I don't remember 3 years ago but I believe I had one buck wounded that I did not recover, and it had been awhile since that happened. That was one of 8 or 9 deer taken that year.
Not trying to be a jerk Jason, I just don't know anyone who has that kind of wounding rate. Three other deer were taken on my farm this year by friends, all archery. We had to track one for about 70 yards as it was early season with lots of cover and the hunter is hard of hearing so did not know if it fell or not. The other two fell within sight of the stands. At least 6 deer in the previous two years taken on my farm by others, so that makes 1 out of 27 or 28 deer, less than a 4% wounding rate.
No bait allowed in MO, just guys who hunt that are not tempted to take low percentage shots no matter what is on their head. As threads on the BGF allude to, head gear makes people do funny things.
My solution, make the rut for deer and elk exclusive to traditional equipment and the rest of archery season available to all string powered projectiles. As a compound hunter I would not be able to hunt the rut, and would be fine with that. Late season is just as productive on well managed properties. That would be a win-win IMHO.
Frank, you have already established that you, and anybody you hunt with is a superior bowhunter.
Bowhunter Magazine An article entitled “Bow Wounding Losses THE BIG MYTH” by David Samuel states: It is disquieting to know that we probably wound one deer for every animal harvested. Samuel also states: The only reason I can think of is that bowhunting is difficult, more so than gun hunting. Some non-thinking bowhunters apparently feel it’s better to say that they at least hit a deer than admit they didn’t harvest one. That’s really dumb logic and every time someone says they wound a deer to anyone else, even a bowhunter friend, it gives the wrong message to anyone who is listening
Here are some studies:https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVlcmZyaWVuZGx5LmNvbXxob21lfGd4OjQ0MDY0NzAyOTc2NzE5ODA
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVlcmZyaWVuZGx5LmNvbXxob21lfGd4OjdmMDAyNjljNjA2NGQzZmQ
Jason,
You used other examples such as the owner of this site having wounded a deer. But, how many years has he been posting live hunts in multiple states and that is the only non-recovered I remember reading about.
Maybe stand hunting and waiting for the right shot leads to lower wound/loss rate?
Sorry if I offend anyone here for having this discussion instead of talking BB or ripping someone for baiting;-) Just seriously opposed to putting false information out there that antis can use as a weapon against us by saying something like "even on hunting sights they admit to 50% or higher wounding rates." It's highly inaccurate, at least for ethical hunters.
Jason,
I have never even implied I am a superior bow hunter. I cannot even be but a base member of P&Y because I have limited species I have harvested with a bow, whitetail deer and black beer to qualify for the club. Superior would be like Jaq on the BGF and others who have extensive experience in multiple species and countries. I am at best average.
You continue to miss the point IMHO. Our participation here should be about helping each other get better. I would like to hear any support other than from you about the process of holding off the kill zone of a deer because you know your bow is hitting several inches off of where you aim. I would like them to explain how a few practice shots without a release at dirt will equal trying to pull the same consistency off on a live animal.
What I do think is it is more ethical to have a standing deer at close range using equipment I am totally confident with and place the pin on the kill zone than what I described above. And whatever insults you want to throw my way will not change that. Maybe write the author of the article you cite above and get their opinion?
And I made and sometimes continue to make mistakes. Friends point them out to me and I try to improve and I typically thank them. Peace brother!
Jason's link
Often cited, but very older study not sure it applies today. Maybe even encourages people to take unethical shots since there are so many others in their opinion doing it.
Traditional equipment.
Jason,
Just take the 's' off of the https and copy it in to the URL/Link box and it will provide the link for you. Thanks.
18% wounding rate here, more recent study. Did improved equipment, better ethics play a role. I bet at least a partial yes to both. That's why we have these discussions, to move the wound rate into a much improved data column, again IMHO.
The numbers don't lie, but I suspect many hunters reporting cripples do. It's an epidemic, and the state needs to make training mandatory. In heavily hunted areas, one study showed the retrieval rate was higher, due to other hunters finding the deer. Some studies show a higher crippling rate with modern equipment probably due to hunters overestimating their new bow's performance.
I think maybe the first step is stop letting kids and women shoot deer with 30 lb bows and train them right.
I gave up on Dave Samuels years ago.
Thornton if it wasn't for a 30 lb bow my daughter would not have received the young bowhunters award from the KBA 8 years ago. A light weight bow is the best way to train them right. This isn't 1980. Todays bows at 30 lbs are as fast as yesterdays bows at 50 lbs. My daughter shooting 38 lbs has never wounded a deer. How about you at 70 lbs? The first step is bringing back the age restriction to 12 like it used to be and requiring bowhunters education. The second step is dropping the any season tag. You have people who are not really interested in bowhunting buying a bow or crossgun just to hunt the rut. Drop the any season tag and you will see a big decrease in hunting pressure during bow season as these hunters will go back to gun hunting. These hunters don't care how many deer they wound, they have the gun season to fall back on.
Habitat that is a terrible idea to limit rut hunting to traditional only, and I am a traditional hunter(who shoots around 38-39 lbs at my draw by the way Thornton). Limit it to traditional only, and everyone will be shooting a Black Widow bow. But I would support traditional only during the rut as long as the any season tag was dropped. Then at least, people would have to choose what season they preferred.
Writer WSU can't make shots, especially from behind the arc. I like Marshall but can't figure out why he keeps playing Sherfield. The kid offers nothing. He can't shoot, can't handle the ball, can't defend, and is slow. But he continues to play him, and starts him. He must be a hell of practice player to earn those minutes he gets.
Dumbest thing I've read all day: " These hunters don't care how many deer they wound, they have the gun season to fall back on." Congrats on your daughter killing deer with a bow. How many has she shot? One of longest veterans of bowhunting on here lost a 230" nontypical back in the 70's he shot at 7 yards. It's been said, the more you bowhunt, the more likely you will lose one. I suppose you have never lost one, seeing how all of a sudden, everyone replying to his post has a superior aim and shot placement?
Last one I lost was in the late 90's. Bet you buy the any season tag. "Dumbest" thing I have read was the cat fight you had with Habitat. Now that was "dumb", for both parties.
I don’t know much but I’m betting in bowhunter education they would teach you to not try to “thread an arrow through a small hole in the brush” when you were knowingly at a disadvantage by shooting without your release. So which one is it? Do you want less crippled deer or do you want to admit it was a mistake to send that arrow? I don’t think you can have it both ways.
I absolutely love the idea of bring minimum age back (it was 14 in my younger days) and doing away with the anyseason tags. Been saying and wishing for both for a very long time.
I purchase the any season tag but only bow hunt. It allows me to hunt during rifle season and since I am on private property I feel safe.
I bow hunt during rifle season in MO but have to purchase the firearms tag to do so. It gets expensive!
Harvested a number of deer with bow wearing orange.
The Archery only tag allows you to hunt all season as well Frank, the "Any Season" should be eliminated.
Kyle,
Is that new? Or maybe I just thought it was that way because of MO? Thanks.
Clipper,
My wife tells me regularly I have dumb ideas;-)
I just don't get the guys who hunt for racks mainly. Getting kids started is difficult enough, but when they believe they need to kill something impressive it makes it much more difficult.
I just love to be out there, that's what it should be about. Any animal taken, especially with archery tackle, is a trophy IMHO. We should teach kids exactly that.
Kyle's correct. Both styles of deer permits allow you to bowhunt through firearms season. Been that way since the "any season, any weapon," whitetail permit went into place.
Federal studies are pretty clear on the importance of getting youth into hunting by about the age of 12. Anybody who has raised kids knows how fast they start getting into other activities after that. What our kids have done really isn't a fair comparison because they were raised in such high-focus households. That said, personally we didn't want our kids killing animals until they were mature enough to comprehend what they were doing. Five and six-year-olds seem young to me, but I've gotten thoroughly torched on other sites for saying that.
Adrenalin is one of the main causes for poor hits. Shooting great at targets doesn't always equate to being good at shooting game, especially with a bow. Not a lot bowhunter education can do about that. Individuals who help mentor newbies probably have more impact than any class. A kid I'm owrking with was taking 25-45 yard shots at walking turkeys and deer and, thankfully, missing. He never had really thought about how low his odds were for a lethal hit versus wounding the animal. In his mind they were targets. Now he only has one pin on his bow, out to 20 yards and no further. I also talked him out of being an instant trophy hunter and to concentrate on making a good hit on whatever kind of deer offered the good shot. Not rocket science, I know many of you have done the same with beginners.
Part of KDWPT's purpose is to keep hunting regulations as simple and easy to understand as possible and make it as easy as possible for hunters to stay in the field. Even though they do a pretty good job, some smart people still get confused.
Writer so are you saying that "regulations are simple now compared to what they were prior to 1995"? Tell me that is not what you meant or I will have to call you a Thornton! It used to be cut and dry. We had an archery and we had a gun season. You made your choice. There were 2 tag options. Now that was simple. No muzzle loader season, no antlerless 2 day season, no antlerless tag, no any season tag, etc. It is anything but simple.
My bad, I did not realize you could hunt through rifle season with an archery tag, but I have been hunting more on the MO side since 2007. Thanks Mike and Kyle.
FTR, I have no qualm with folks who rifle hunt, I used to do it back in the day. I guess I am too lazy to make sure the rifle is sighted in. Thanks again!
Jeff - never said, "regulations are simple now compared to what they were prior to 1995"? Those are your words, not mine, but I get your drift and can't argue with it. And the muzzleloader season started in 1989. There were whitetail-antlerless-only permits in the late 80s, but that was the one and only permit. It was a way for people to rifle hunt every season. The January season and two-day October season was to appease the legislature, though one biologist was in favor of an October firearms doe season. But you are correct in that things aren't as easy as they used to be. I got paid to keep track of seasons and changes, and I still had agency people call me from time to time because they were confused.
And please don't call me a Thorton. I don't have the brains to work in an E.R. nor the energy to run a full lawn care business , too.
Those antlerless tags first started in chatauqua county I believe and we're only valid on private land, which it should be now. The other was a joke by the way.
In CQ county, that was the first January season. At a commission meeting several landowners all but begged for the special season and tags....the next day the same ones announced it would cost $50 per hunter, per day to come shoot those nuisance does.
And so it began...
We hunted some big WIHA in CQ back in 2009 and only saw a handful of deer on several thousand acres. First doe season in the late 90's I sat on a hill in Greenwood Co and watched 111 deer leave an alfalfa field and go into the hills to bed. Within 5 years of that doe season, 30 was a big number. If I remember right, I got 5 doe tags and 2 buck tags one of those years and filled them all. Now, I rarely shoot does.
The first few years there were the extra permits, many hunter thought they "had" to fill them. I was running beagles in Ottawa County and a crew of 5-6 hunters were bound and determined to fill them all. They did, and regretted it. We still don't see the deer on our around Quivira we did pre-drought. 40-50 was common on a wheat field next to the refuge. Now, a dozen is a lot. I did see over 100 along a stretch of creek bottom south of Alma about a year ago.
.
Yep, I was part of that. Had too much land to hunt, lots of deer drive buddies and plenty of deer. I'm more of a conservation mind now.
Conservation and hunting have to go hand in hand. Can't have one without the other, if you don't have both you have the mess we have now. I wish that the KDWPT would change their name to the Kansas Dept of Conservation, then live by it.
Grand idea, Clip, but as long as the legislature thinks they know more, that's going to be tough.
I see Missouri sportsmen are fighting to keep their legislature out of MDOC affairs. Sure hope they're successful.
