Yeah it's another damn crossbow thread.
Wisconsin
I don't really like most of the options. But then again I don't know what the answer is.
My opinion after reading through all of the options is that none of them would change the number of times I hunt just the dates that I hunt so instead of spreading my season out I would just hit it harder during the open days. All you would see is the deer kill stay the same they would just get killed on different dates than the previous years. Just my opinion
Since they are looking at all weapons are they going to reduce the gun season also? I mean if we’re truly going to make it fair across the board. Maybe just hunt the Mon. - Fri. and get rid of the weekends for gun season. All 7 proposals are BS in my opinion.
The NRB will discuss this in an open meeting in GEF2 on 1-23-19. The public is invited to listen or to make verbal comments (the time for written comments has passed,...i.e., as of 11:00 this morning). The final decision will not be announced on the 23rd., the NRB will discuss this in closed session and issue a statement at a later date. One of the listed options may be chosen or another option may be selected. Right now, it is all up in the air. If you feel strongly about this issue consider appearing at the meeting, registering, and then speaking. That is really the only way to make your voice heard to the people who have the power to effect change. Venting about an issue, either pro or con, on this forum does little good other than letting off steam and maybe occasionally slightly influencing another. If you want more information on this then Google "January 22 & 23, 2019 WI DNR NRB Meeting Agenda". This will tell you when, where, and what. Click on the links provided and you can get even more information.
DT, they are not looking at all weapons, they are contemplating changes to the crossbow season. But, I think you already know this.
Read the opening statement. All weapons is stated. You can’t just look at one weapon when there is a superior weapon with even higher success rates and I WILL MAKE THAT ARGUMENT IN PERSON.
As a CC delegate I resent KAZ using his position on the NRB to push a personal agenda.
And while we are looking at things all in fairness I’m going to push to shorten the bear season for bait sitters. They have continually had higher success rates the the hound guys. Fair is fair.
"As a CC delegate I resent KAZ using his position on the NRB to push a personal agenda."
What would you have the people on the NRB do? Are they not there make suggestions when needed? Is this not why we want experienced sportsmen/women on the NRB? If KAZ's plan fit your agenda would that be better?
This was shot down in the spring hearings and he should not be pressing this and should be following the wishes of the majority of sportsmen in the state.
If he wants to push it, he should step down from his position and speak as a private citizen.
There is no scientific data that shows there is a need to do anything. There is a huge amount of greed in place by “some” bowhunters to make an unwarranted change.
dang those deamoncrats !!
"This was shot down in the spring hearings and he should not be pressing this and should be following the wishes of the majority of sportsmen in the state."
Crossbows for all during archery season was also shot down in spring hearings. Yet here it is. I really wouldn't care if they left the seasons as they are now. But they really need to put some limits on crossbow speed/technology.
"There is a huge amount of greed in place by “some” bowhunters to make an unwarranted change."
Greed for sure. They should just open up a general deer season Sept 1st - march 1st. Any weapon for anyone that buys a license. Two buck tags, 10 antlerless tags per "hunter". Group bagging legal, night hunting legal and encouraged.
That I would agree and support. On the speed and technology.
I think the speed/tech cap would be hard to enforce. Crossbows are used in other states and I believe manufacturers will continue to keep increasing speed etc. making it difficult for enforcement to decipher speed on a routine check with hunters.
I agree but just don’t know if that’s the answer
I think the speed/tech cap would be hard to enforce. Crossbows are used in other states and I believe manufacturers will continue to keep increasing speed etc. making it difficult for enforcement to decipher speed on a routine check with hunters.
I agree but just don’t know if that’s the answer
No scopes on xguns, and muzzle loaders.
If it goes to 3 totally separate seasons - vertical, xbow and gun. And the numbers show that more deer kills are needed- 3 buck tags per separate weapon seasons per hunter won't be far away either. More license sales is more money and more herd control along with it seems like a win for the dnr
We all know allowing xguns for all in the archery season was a desperate attempt to increase license sales. It didnt work but #s have shown xguns are a superior weapon. Xguns for all do not belong in the archery season, hopefully common sense will prevail finally.
It appears they are only accepting written comments. Kaz can bring anything up that he chooses. The Congress advises the NRB but the Board is an independent entity.
well there going to do something,,,,,, like to listen to what Lobner has to say,,,,,
Wis had it right, with the lessor weapon rule,,,,, should have left it alone
Option 8 Go back to our original Law it served and benefited EVERYONE that want to hunt with a crossgun.
DT, any citizen can attempt to get placed on the Board. Give it a go. If and when you make it, I will ask for you to step down because I do not agree with your position regards crossbows. Sound stupid, doesn’t it?
Just my opinion . I think every time something like this comes up it just makes crossbows stronger .Nothings being taken away from the regular archers so there's really no reason for them to fight against it other the the small groups like on here . But on the other side your give them a reason to show up because there vested in it they have spent 100s to 1000s of dollar for a weapon they can use through the season , your trying to make them put it on the shelf and collect dust . Again nothing is being taken away form your weekend archery hunter so why would they fight for it ? Plus between cell phones , computers and school sports its way easier for a father to get his child into hunting by just getting him a crossbow . Again just my opinion do with it as you want . Plus the over all kill numbers for archery haven't gone up .
Up north you make valid points...... however, I do not have to tell you the history of archery in this state, so their is passion against them......
I am surprised though, that I never thought, nor do I really think, anything was going to change, but after reading the options, it looks like something is going to give
I get the feeling, that these options came from the DNR, but I do not know,,,,,,,
Before regular gun season no crossbows allowed unless over 65 or disabled.
Only allow crossbows for anyone during regular gun season, muzzleloader season, and any archery or gun seasons after muzzleloader season. (including the doe gun only hunts)
Up north, why is it easier to get kids involved because of xguns? Because they are easier to shoot right? That's the point, archery takes time and practice. If a kid has to tag along for a few more yrs so be it. When they are able to be efficient with a bow, kids will appreciate the sport of archery even more. Xguns for all belong in the gun season.
upnorth you sell crossbows correct?
My observations over the years from talking to those with first hand accounts, from reading DNR documentation available online, and from watching video of NRB meetings. These opinions are my own, and are not views of any organization, club or news source.
- 2014 Xbow meeting - Meeting was dominated by conference call with the NRA, and a woman testifying to how she needed a crossbow to hunt deer, thus 'proving' inclusion was needed for additional hunter recruitment. My opinion is that this meeting was pure politics over statistics. Money was talking.
- 2014 Compromise determined to be a separate concurrent season for crossbows AND an analysis of the crossbow statistics to determine the affect on the resource, hunter recruitment, and anything else the statistics can provide. This was key to lending support for the crossbow change, but also to verify it was producing the results promised. The DNR signed on to this. Other groups signed on to this, although grudgingly. You can't blame them, and the 'big tent' support pressure was part of this.
Flash forward to early 2018 - Spring hearings - Crossbow question placed on the agenda after the 2017 statistics where posted(several versions by the DNR, I might add).
2018 NRB meeting - (And you can watch this online meeting video as I did) Kaz asks the DNR if they have statistics to determine harvest timing for crossbows. The DNR rep said yes. Kaz then asked the DNR to provide a report for the board showing kill statistics, which you are viewing now. I would have to review the tape to see if he emphasized buck kill as this requested report's point of focus. But this type of report was something that was agreed to by the DNR at the inception of inclusion. It was also probably justification for the GoWild system. IMHO the DNR dragged their feet on these statistics for several years, but the numbers cannot be refuted at this point. Much smoke is out there, and I think the focus is a bit off.
So, here we are. The stats are what they are. The new hunters are not at the numbers that the pro-crossbow people promised to bring to the table. The numbers are obtained mostly by a shift from other license categories. This changes things quite a bit from the original promises made. Animals killed, public land pressure, quality of the hunt, etc. Many are realizing this after 5 seasons, including the crossbow people themselves. I am sure there was pressure on Kaz to bring the topic up with the NRB, because the DNR didn't seem to have a directive from their side of it to do so. IMHO, they were dragging their feet for too long, and were hoping for an overwhelming pro-crossbow mandate at the CC hearings, but really didn't get that.
In hindsight, I feel that they never should have agreed to allowing a scope on the crossbow in this state, for placement into a early season which is meant for more primitive weapons. The industry is currently touting rifle like accuracy, which will ultimately hurt the crossbow cause. Setting up demonstrations by manufacturers to prove their point, that a 100 or even a 200 yard shot can result in a 3" grouping pushes the technology beyond what was available in 2014. This stuff cannot be ignored in todays environment. And it doesn't matter what you or I think about the ethics of those statements or demonstrations. It only matters to those who may believe in them, and hunt accordingly. You cannot legislate ethics, only equipment. I personally do not like being in the woods before leaf drop around the state with the potential of individuals taking those types of shots. They do not allow muzzleloaders to hunt that time of year, they can't ignore these crossbow claims any longer. So the questions really should NOT be framed as whether more or less deer are shot by crossbows(note they DO harvest more deer and more bucks). But it should be a technological question, and a safety issue of moving so many gun hunters into a time of the fall where it may not be safe to do so. I would further point out that legislating wearing orange will not work, as the general public out and about during that time of year cannot be forced to do so.
The real question should be to the crossbow users, do you want to give up your scopes, OR do you want to move your start date back to a time where total leaf drop has occurred around the state? (My guess that would be sometime after the first week of November.) Do this step first, then again reevaluate the effect on the resources and quality of the hunt factors. JMHO
GH, any effort to even consider any option is due to the crossbow having been placed in its own season framework. Let it live or die on its own merits. Something that almost no other state had the forethought to do.
Of course the options came from the DNR. That's who Kaz asked for the report from.
Amazing how every option comes up with 'approx. 6000 bucks taken'....lmao. Personally, I believe none of this BS and am totally skeptical of any of these stats.
Wisc. deer hunting has turned into the "Silly Deer Seasons".....every 2 weeks we have a separate season for every hunter with hurt feelings. You can tell a lot of this is getting generated out of Madison....the "hurt feelings" capital of the world.
Here is one way I look at it. If nothing is done the crossbow success numbers are only going to keep rising. It won't be long before the gun only crowd gets riled up, and they have the numbers. Next thing you know they look at reducing archery season. All because of one greedy user group.
Yes I sell crossbow but more regular bow haven't sold a crossbow since November and can't figure out why. The one that start the kids on crossbows say they don't have the time and they want the child to harvest a deer and think they have a better chance . Basically a little lazy . I have shown a bunch a kids how to shoot a compound bow and with modern equipment they usually catch on pretty quick . Have never taught a person under probably 18 how to use a crossbow , so far its never come up .My business is built around my indoor range believe me I would rather sell a person a compound bow then a crossbow . A guy can buy a crossbow on line have it sent to his house have his kid shooting and ready to go . But my league shooting is up a little this year and was up almost 30 % last year regular compound , no crossbow league there allowed to sight in and practice on bags if they come in . If the want to shoot the 3d range I tell them it has to be offhand not rested , haven't had any 3d shooters in years on the 3d targets .I am not here to argue with a customer , when a person comes in for a crossbow I found if I try to change there mind I either piss them off or they leave . So all I say when someone new comes in is can I help you . I am here to sell product and teach shooters , what they shoot really doesn't make a difference to me , because I won't take a side I usually have them pissed at me one way or the other its a battle I can't win if I get real evolved .
6.8% higher success rate OMG the sky is falling.
So Case said the time for written comment had expired. Then I read from another that they are only taking written comments.
What a pathetic attempt to deceive people.
Sorry for the length of my post above. Thought maybe it better longer than back and forth. Just a different angle on the topic.
Just go back to the 65 or disabled rule. The DNR really mucked it up by opening the season to any weapon choice for the full season for any age. Now they have to backpedal because they think more bucks are being taken because of the crossbow. Some of those would have probably been taken with a compound or stick bow but the shooter decided to use his crossbow that day. I have both a compound and a crossbow and interchange them regularly. Personally, I would like to see a limit on the fps (say, 380 fps max) and eliminate the use of mechanical broadheads all together.
How many of those 6.8 % still would of got a archery deer without a crossbow . I shot one deer in Wisconsin ( small buck ) and one in Missouri (doe ) with a crossbow during black powder just to take one with a different weapon my 6th different weapon . Just guessing but I think the people you should complain about are the ones that jumped from a compound to a crossbow , Could be wrong but I think the number of new people that went into archery because of the crossbow isn't that big . If the gun hunters decided to hunt both seasons then there would be a big problem could be another 200,000+ archery tags . To me its about how many total deer get killed not what weapon they took it with , as long as its legal .
DT, it is a rate. Apply that to rising numbers of users. Basic math.
With regard to shortening the crossbow season and the Janunary 22 - 23, 2019 WI DNR NRB meeting, the statement that the WI DNR NRB is only taking written comments is inaccurate. It is false, it is not true. Further, the time for those written comments has now expired. To confirm this call Laurie Ross, NRB Liasion - Office of Sec of WI DNR, at (608) 267-7420. Also, she can relay the details of how to provide in-person, live, verbal comments. All this information is also available on-line. It is very clear. Not hard to understand. Straight forward. No attempt at deception. Just look it up and read it.
"To me its about how many total deer get killed not what weapon they took it with , as long as its legal ."
Then just have one season, use any legal weapon!
Kind of extreme and a little dumb , and off the deep end but really if they did that and the overall kill didn't go up do you think it would effect your hunting . Let the best person or lucky person win ( was going to say man but guess that's not right anymore ). If a big buck gets shot early he's more then likely already breed in the prior years so he's still in the gene pool . Kind of done with this getting a little stupid .
Bear, and spring turkey hunting are already that way. One season, use any legal weapon.
This is agenda item 4B for this week's NRB meeting and is subject to written testimony only.
I see your position, Jake. The only problem with that is todays crossbows CAN be shot without a scope. Most of todays compound bows CANNOT be shot without a release.
They could fix the one mistake they made that will also provide political cover, safety and technology advancement. Those positions are hard to argue, especially with the general public. And that correction is to eliminate scopes if they want to keep the current season dates. The crossbow industry and crossbow users created the current situation. They can't now act as if they are not responsible, and shift blame to others that may have forewarned of this coming. An evaluation after a trial period was agreed to at the beginning. Amnesia is no excuse, nor is blame shifting. Decisions weighted too much on politics seldom stand.
More proof that real bowhunting with bows and arrows is in serious decline. Not going to be many true bow and arrow hunters left, but there will always be a select few.
Jake, and there you go. You accepted the compromise to give up the scope. That should flatten the kill curve, push off the technology edge, help with safety, and allow the crossbow users to hunt the moderate weather of the fall like everyone else. That one thing.
I understand the differences in the scope types. My position is to go to pins on crossbows like the compounds. The big technology advantages of crossbows involve scopes. Same with muzzleloaders. It is mostly about scopes. Colorado leashed their muzzleloaders this way.
On more 'improvement' they should make. When purchasing a patrons license, questions should be asked if the purchaser will be using a crossbow, and/or a vertical bow. That would help keep the DNR from playing games with statistics. I pointed this out to Wallenfang at the WBH convention last March, as he seemed to indicated they added all patrons to the denominator for success ratio calculations, as at present, they couldn't tell what to exclude. I told him fix it. He just looked at me sorta blank like. A check off box should be included to indicate potential use of any primitive weapons, muzzleloaders too.
I also took an informal poll at a little archery club that I belong to. It is about 1/3 young guys, 2/3's middle aged and old duffers. At that meeting, six carried patrons licenses; only one actually used a crossbow. And he used a crossbow before full inclusion under the disability waiver. I know of other crossbow users in the club that were not present at that meeting, but you get the picture. Try that little poll at your own archery club. Many xbow users do not join clubs, but it points out the error in including all patron licensees as xbow participants in statistics.
skookumjt - apologies to you. Your comments regarding written testimony only at the upcoming NRB meeting are correct. The original DNR NRB meeting agenda allowed citizen, verbal testimony (along with written) and that is what I based my comments on, i.e. the "old" agenda. Now I see the new agenda specifies written comments only, I only saw this by clicking onto your link. This is something new. This agenda has been changed within the last 24 hours. Surprise. Surprise! How are we citizens supposed to know how to deal with and how to plan for interaction with the NRB when the rules change at the last minute? Quite disappointing. Again, apologies. No disrespect meant to you.
Missouri, you been in a coma? It’s been weeks since we heard that the end is near!
" From: RutnStrut 19-Jan-19
"This was shot down in the spring hearings and he should not be pressing this and should be following the wishes of the majority of sportsmen in the state."
Crossbows for all during archery season was also shot down in spring hearings. Yet here it is. I really wouldn't care if they left the seasons as they are now. But they really need to put some limits on crossbow speed/technology. "
Excellent idea, so limit speed to that of compounds, like about 400 fps?
Which tech would you like to limit to compound tech? cams? sights? what?
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that some day in the future, when I come home to bowhunt in WI, that I will be required to wear blaze orange because of full inclusion of xguns.
Bear, and spring turkey hunting are already that way. One season, use any legal weapon.
Not apples to apples or remotely close. Bear and turkey hunters are far more limited in numbers and tags are limited by draw. Everyone can buy deer tags and many at that. If gun hunters had the same amount of time to kill a deer as we archery guys do, the success rate would be through the roof and the population would be quickly decimated.
To me its about how many total deer get killed not what weapon they took it with , as long as its legal .
This is actually how I feel too. So far, the overall kills have stayed pretty static with the numbers just being varied during the seasons.
“DT, it is a rate. Apply that to rising numbers of users. Basic math.”
And apply that to decreasing numbers of user group.
Basic math.
What it boils down to is >1% in the state are grumpy and trying to push their weight around. Basing off of 250,000 bowhunters and 2,500 WBHA members and I’m confident that not all of them support the push.
I do apply that to a decreasing group. Thanks for supporting my argument.
Even if any of these options were enacted how do they enforce it? There are quite a few on FB groups stating that they will keep using their crossbows.
DT - "Basing off of 250,000 bowhunters"
Crossbow hunters are not categorized as bowhunters in WI; if they were, they would be licensed as such in the general archery season. Loose the scopes, then you might be able to support that argument better. But that is their problem, not everyone elses.
BTW - crossbow hunters let their organization die last fall. What happened to their support of the weapon they care about as recent as 2014? Very few are carrying that load now, really. And NO hunter organizations are flush with members, NONE. Hard to make any such statement about licensed hunter support for much of anything these days. The ONLY organization that is growing is the BackCountry Hunters and Anglers. And they appeal to the millennial age bracket. I have heard that they number around 30,000+. Impressive for such a young organization. They drink beer at gatherings at micro brewery pubs. Maybe that's the ticket?
"I see your position, Jake. The only problem with that is todays crossbows CAN be shot without a scope. Most of todays compound bows CANNOT be shot without a release.
They could fix the one mistake they made that will also provide political cover, safety and technology advancement. Those positions are hard to argue, especially with the general public. And that correction is to eliminate scopes if they want to keep the current season dates. The crossbow industry and crossbow users created the current situation. They can't now act as if they are not responsible, and shift blame to others that may have forewarned of this coming. An evaluation after a trial period was agreed to at the beginning. Amnesia is no excuse, nor is blame shifting. Decisions weighted too much on politics seldom stand.
"
I have never held a bow that couldn't be shot without a release. In fact, I have never held a release.
Is it legal to use optics on an V bow?
"On more 'improvement' they should make. When purchasing a patrons license, questions should be asked if the purchaser will be using a crossbow, and/or a vertical bow. That would help keep the DNR from playing games with statistics. I pointed this out to Wallenfang at the WBH convention last March, as he seemed to indicated they added all patrons to the denominator for success ratio calculations, as at present, they couldn't tell what to exclude. I told him fix it. He just looked at me sorta blank like. A check off box should be included to indicate potential use of any primitive weapons, muzzleloaders too. "
Patrons have the authority to hunt all types. Same as anyone who buys any specif lic or more than one. They all get included in the denominator since they all have the lic auth. weather they hunt or not. DNR knows who shot what with what weapon. What further refinement do you seek?
That blank look was he couldn't believe you didn't understand.
Would it matter to you if a hunter bought the bow option?
All a patron would have to do is check all the boxes. I for sure would, no matter what I actually planned to do. Why should I relinquish any authority for which I paid?
" From: RutnStrut 20-Jan-19 Here is one way I look at it. If nothing is done the crossbow success numbers are only going to keep rising. It won't be long before the gun only crowd gets riled up, and they have the numbers. Next thing you know they look at reducing archery season. All because of one greedy user group. "
LOL someone goes out and legally harvests a deer just like you can and now they are a greedy user group. Can't make this stuff up!
Get rid of fiber optic pins for virtical bows. Not needed anyway unless your a poacher shooting early or late.
I also feel that compound hunters should fall same season frameworks as xbows. If we’re going to go back to a more traditional hunt let’s do it and quit screwing around.
I don’t want to hear any damn excuses.
Not sure about min speed, what is the number?
DoorKnob - Not sure about the legality of various optics on vertical bows, but new range finder combination optics like the Garmin Xero are relatively new. Entirely possible those types of things may be considered over the top. It looks like compounds are not quite done evolving either. But I do not object to pins, and they do not use pins. I would have to give the Garmin Xero a thumbs down. But I have a few questions about those things. Do they pickup on twigs between the shooter and the target?
Doorknob - Patrons licenses. The check box idea is only to clarify hunting possibilities for statistical reasons only. I would not ask patrons to pay additional nor relinquish any rights granted by a patrons license. I will note, however, that not all hunting tags are included with the patron's license now. But you either own a crossbow, vertical bow, traditional bow, or muzzleloader or you don't. If you do, then you could be that type of hunter whether you actually venture out with that weapon or not. Even if you first did not check the box at the time of purchase, registering an animal with that type of weapon under a patrons license would indicate to them that you changed your mind. The DNR will not have a leg to stand on concerning weapon statistics if they cannot straighten out the patrons intentions to hunt by weapon. They cannot read your mind. And including all patrons in the denominator is not good enough. Getting 53,000+ hunters info statistically wrong is relevant to any biologist. They can do better under the new licensing system. They know that.
First it was an extra $3, now possibly a new season. Like any craze, someone will find a way (this time the dnr) to make extra money off of it.
"LOL someone goes out and legally harvests a deer just like you can"
As they could prior to 2014 and the easy button. What's your point?
"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."
It's so sad to see the xgunners unable to refute the numbers and attack compound bows. Poor debate skills. Sad.
Drop Tine, for decades we had a archery season with a bow and arrow. Now a superior weapon has been lumped into the archery season. Now everyone is realizing the xgun kill is going to increase dramatically every yr and changes need to be made. You constantly support xguns for all. Please go to xgun nation and stay there.
Myke, you might be missing the point.
Harvest by weapon type and authority is well known to DNR. It is included in the registration. For example, 2 years running I harvested 2 bucks both ate broad heads. How do you want that counted?
The statistic is success rate per license authority (hunter with weapon type). Every license holder is counted for the authorities held and is registered by weapon type AND authority.
It has never been anything else. What exactly do want to see? and how would that help anything. That is the buck thing. Buy a license and you are a buck hunter statistically.
When it comes to antler-less it gets very iffy. Automatically issued tags ( like 5 per lic authority = hunter weapon and each type- this year here) are problematic. You may notice the stats thrown out by success per tag (not hunter = lic) Now that generated very low success rates for Door county antler less even though the numbers are closer to 100% per Hunter over all.* If they gave me 10 doe tags (like they did) and I wanted and harvested only one it looks like 10%. But for me it feels like 100%
I didn't look up the numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if there were more deer harvested in Door than actual hunters (people who were licensed and tried regardless of weapon type or multiple tags). Some peeps don't take any or don't even care to. Some take several (guilty as charged) Very few here did not get all the deer they wanted if they put forth reasonable effort.
The stats are used to argue against population and other things. Not sure that is righteous.
Most of those stats do not stand up well to application on the weapon debate.
From: RutnStrut 20-Jan-19
"LOL someone goes out and legally harvests a deer just like you can"
As they could prior to 2014 and the easy button. What's your point?
Had you not truncated my post the answer to your question would have been self evident. Shameful tactic.
RJN
Why? I hunt with my Bowtech 350. I’m a “bow Hunter” I just look at the whole picture and not get caught up in fantasy and trumped up statistics.
Also your argument is a mute point because the overall harvest all weapons combined has not increased.
Just use a selfbow, own your reputation.
You guys that are pro xgun are in favor of the air bow also during the archery season right? Its shoots bolts so its archery right? Lol We need to get back to what the archery season was intended for, bows and arrows. Jake- I dont know your dad and have never seen a pic of him. I think Alzheimer's is setting in. Lol
cross bows simply need to be in a gun season only,,,, what is the problem,,, oh what is the issue,,,,, get a compound from 35 to 40lbs with 80 percent let off, plenty of power to kill a deer,,,, oh yeah right, you would have to practice, and take some time off your life....... what a joke
For next season, I suggest that all vertical archers spend the extra 3$ for a crossgun option and just register their kill as a crossgun kill whether one was used or not. Let’s help their cause!
jake I am sure you and I would get along great in a deer camp like most guys here, but change is coming,,,,, I do not think in all reality that xbows were an issue, but with the industry, pushing the bs stats, of what can be done with them, and some pencil heads in Madison reading that,,,,, your your own worst enemies....... stay well
Jake- I have absolutely no clue what your talking about with your dad. You might want to get your noodle checked for dementia.??
In terms of importance to hunter buck success rates and overall happiness weapon type is easily eclipsed by the following (in no particular order):
1) Group hunting for bucks 2) Current population management 3) Lack of age sex structure management. Right now that issue is left to the individual hunter. 4) Access 5) Violators 6) Disease
Now, if all of those things were properly addressed today, the 2019 season would be better for everyone and starting with the 2020 season hunters would be so happy they wouldn't mind you hunting with a bazooka. Put you efforts where it will make a positive difference.
Busiest thread I've seen on bowsite for quite some time and it's no surprise that it's about crossbows. The regulars here sure love talking about crossbows, they must be pretty great, maybe everybody should get one to see what all the fuss is about. Then if you enjoy shooting your new crossbow maybe think about deer hunting because from what I hear most areas of wisconsin are still well over population goal with deer so much so that forests are suffering so taking a few deer out with your new extremely fun to shoot crossbow would be a great benefit in the overall picture.
There are too many deer in many areas, ......extend the rifle season, more doe tags, and one buck would get er done.
there is no biological reason for one buck rules,,, those that advocate that are more interested in political science and not wildlife science
DK brings up a very valid point on group hunting.
How can bowhunters call for shortening a season for a lesser weapon when gun deer hunters enjoy the free for all in the gun season with group hunting?
Seriously, crossbows are the problem???
The fear of the x-gun crowd (Crossbownation.com) is the advertisement of the Raven ad that it is the next rifle, their youtube ad shows the accuracy at 100 yrds with the new improve Raven. Take that ad and hit the NRB hard with it, shoulder ,scope, trigger fired is just like a rifle and the increase of buck kills with the rifle season tags decreasing, this is the best time or never to get the x-gun season restricted to a short time period, preferable after the rut that runs with the gun season. Remember Ted Nugent claimed that if you did not bait you were a punk ( I am a punk) but reverse this to the x-gun and I agree if you are physically healthy.
I have said for years here and other places ditch group bagging and it would be better for everyone. Too many whine asses in this state for that to happen though.
Sorry the auto fill on my phone kicked in and I deleted the k rather than the n.
Group bagging is good if there are too many deer.
Jake- I've never posted a pick of anyone's dad and I've never pmd you. Honestly, make the appt with your doc first thing in the morning. Lol
Not gonna lie, I honestly wouldn't mind the woods to myself either. But now wanting to take away group bagging from gun guys who have done so since before I was born? What little difference could that really even make? This site is really turning into a anti other hunter forum more and more. Seems the general idea on here is "we" want less deer killed. Meanwhile the dnr keeps adding seasons to get kill numbers higher. If we limit kills by others we might be forced to wear orange from September through January yet
"Group bagging is good if there are too many deer."
That's not why most groups do it. If they made group bagging only legal for antlerless deer, most wouldn't do it.
Seems to me that in order to get accurate statistics on bow versus xbow kills the DNR needs to sell two kinds of archery licenses. Bow or xbow. Then 'bow' hunters can only purchase one or the other license. During gun season they can only use a gun if they bought a gun license. If they bought a bow or xbow license then they can only use what they chose, bow or xbow during gun season. Or use a gun if they have that license.
Hunterrrrr, tell us your definition of what “goal” is. We may as well use yours as the herd is no longer managed by herd goal numbers.
" From: Missouribreaks 20-Jan-19
Group bagging is good if there are too many deer. "
For bucks. Buck do not play a role in "too many deer". Population control is not about bucks.
I guess I just don't see the big deal are the crossbow folks stealing deer from compound and trad gear guys? Or is it that people just don't like crossbows? I don't like egg salad sandwiches so I don't eat them but I'm not going to try to get them outlawed or regulated differently
What I find sickening is hunters under attack from other hunters. I know many of you are gun hunters and we have leadership in the capital coming up with all kinds of ways to get your guns at this moment.
That’s where your efforts should be focused. But knowing this bunch here.....
DT, you talking red flag?
When did "group bagging" become bucks only?
Dt and chief- Are you in favor of allowing air bows for all in the archery season? If not, why? Dt- this bunch are bow hunters since you need to be reminded.
Wasn't going to get back to this but . You have cameras so you get to hunt a deer that before for wouldn't know existed , ozonics to cover scent , all kinds of spray scent killers , had a guy show me that his camera would show the heat signature of a animal that had walked through or there before light ( 6000.00) , night vision scopes getting cheaper and more available , all kinds of deer attractants , hearing aids , drones , plus other things I probably missed . And you think crossbows is the main thing that will get more deer killed . most of the people I know that say they use all this aren't crossbow hunters In another 20 years you probably won't have to leave your house to harvest a animal will be able to do it on your phone or computer . Have a nice day just got my new bow in need to get it sited in for league tomorrow . By
Hope you get it "sited" in.
Upnorth, a guy in Texas already tried to have a (shoot deer from home via computer) business. As soon as he started it, it was shot down and made illegal in all 50 states.
" From: Missouribreaks 21-Jan-19
When did "group bagging" become bucks only? "
Never that I know of, what causes your confusion?
RJN
No I am not in favor of the air bow. It doesn’t have limbs or string. Nothing about it is a bow except the name.
Dt- so your saying the reason you support xguns is because they have limbs and a string even though you look through a scope and they shoot bolts?
Air bows are no different than scoped crossbows. Neither one is bowhunting so if one is allowed in archery seasons, may as well allow the other.
Bow and arrow hunting is declining.
I'm with DT on this one, no one said you have to have a scope and you can call them bolts but they are just short arrows, crossbows are not CO2 powered their string powered. Not making an argument for you to get one just answering the question you asked RJN
RJN -
I have seen scopes made for compound/vertical bows. Also, can you explain the specific difference, other then length, between a modern compound arrow and a modern crossbow bolt? Thank You
Chief- what % of xgunners do you think are not using scopes? I know arguing about xguns gets old but any weapon that threatens the archery season is a concern to me. Technology is getting out of control and hopefully something will be done.
Missouri do you ever think that maybe bowhunters are the reason for the decline in bowhunters? I bet if you embraced the changes and got to know some of the young crossbow folks you could impart a lot of trad and vert bow hunting knowledge and maybe spark an interest for them instead of alienating them. Pushing people out is what keeps them crossbow hunting
The scope is a aiming device no different than a multi pin bow sight. It has a multi line rhetical (sp?). You still have to guess or range distances and use the correct dot same as a bow. No different than powered lenses and clarifiers for bows.
RJN I'm guessing the number would be low, but like I said it is an option
The majority of scoped crossbow shooters are former compound shooters. They left bow and arrow hunting by choice, they were not pushed out.
Probably but the new kids coming into the sport would immediately get shunned by a lot of folks in this group if they even had a dream about a crossbow, too many hunters fighting each other over things that have little impact I have no more interest in arguing just to argue id like to hear some realistic options for possible changes to the archery / crossbow season
I thought the "New DNR" was going back to science to manage our resources?
Kevin@Wisconsin said; "It's so sad to see the xgunners unable to refute the numbers and attack compound bows. Poor debate skills. Sad."
I haven't been on much since a certain member here decided to drag my non hunting family into the discussion by posting their pictures online.
What numbers would you like me to refute? I believe the crossbow is a more efficient weapon and success rates prove it. I don't believe the advantage in success rates amounts to a hill of beans though. Your total archery harvest went down last year, if I am not mistaken? The real difference in success rates is between crossbow/compounds and traditional bows.
A national trend is less people rifle hunting. As less people rifle gun, more deer need to be taken in archery seasons to meet management objectives. Increasing archery participation is a good thing as less are rifle hunting. As hunting comes under attack more and more in this country, strength in numbers is also a good thing. If all of those that archery hunt would stick together as one, we will be stronger together facing attacks against archery hunting moving forward.
I see the whole anti crossbow resistance being based not on increase harvest or true resource concerns, but a resistance based on a threat to the "brotherhood" that some vertical archery enjoy. As our aging hunter population is replaced by younger hunters, and more of them choose the crossbow, archery clubs will be hurting for membership. Those that want to keep hunting with traditional gear or compounds will certainly be able to do so as long as they wish, but they have an issue with fewer other hunters doing the same. Attempt to decrease crossbow use for others to preserve a particular hunting culture for themselves.
That is what it all boils down too.
With the suggested excess of deer and loss of hunter participation why not expand the general rifle season, allow air bows, increase antlerless tags, allow group bagging in archery season and expand Native Amercan opportunity?
Hunting isn't all black and white and numbers. There is some thought put into hunter sentiment as well.
dpms, you keep reffering xguns to archery, it is not . We are all not archers.
Chief your completely wrong . Crossbow bolts are NOT short arrows . Crossbow Bolts must be thicker ( they cannot flex like our vertical bows ) The dia is larger . The side walls must be stiffer . Theres documented accidents with people using arrows in crossbows .
Would you use a 30in arrow rated at 50lbs & cut down to 20 inches ib a crossbow rated at 175lbs ?
Please be carefull of what we say on the internet .
MO, I disagree. I believe most crossbow users are gun hunters who have found an easy way to hunt in a primitive weapon season.
You may be correct Captain. I know 7 scoped crossbow shooters, all were formerly compound bow hunters. I am certain though many gun hunters have also become scoped crossbow hunters during the archery season. Still, many on here claim there are plenty of animals to go around, unless of course the DNR wants to reduce the herds for CWD reasons,..... then they have ruined the herd. Laughable!
I simply said they look no different don't try to tell me what I can and can't say, did I say go out and try it no, no I didn't so don't get your panties in a bunch Ruger
A crossbow is a shoulder mounted weapon that is not held at draw with human assistance that is easier to shoot and master. Period. There is another thread on here with the question about scopes on vertical bows and the correct response in that thread is how unstable a magnified scope is. A cross bow has three points of contact to stabilize it, the off hand to stabilize the forearm ( or the fore grip of the crossbow rested on a shooting rail or stick for even more stability), the shoulder to stabilize the butt of the weapon, and the strong hand on the grip. A vertical bow of ANY design has only two points of stability , the off hand on the grip/riser and the strong hand/wrist drawing the bow and holding on the chin/cheek. The vertical bow shooting stance is a much more unstable open stance with the off arm outstretched and the strong arm using the back and upper shoulder holding the bow back, even if a bow had 100% let off this posture/position is much more unstable than the more compact three points of contact stance to shoot a shoulder mounted weapon.
The answer is simple, a shoulder mounted weapon should not be used outside of any established firearm season, the only exceptions are crossbows available for those over 65 or those unable to draw a vertical bow.
Most of the crossbow hunters I know are not new to the sport but converted bow hunters that use thier crossbows for chip shots out of thier enclosed box blind guns stands or shooting railed ladder stands.
Jake I hunted with a crossbow all of last season out of necessity. Shooting it from a rail in a ladderstand, while leaning against the tree, or from a shooting stick in a blind are extremely easy. I do have a lot of trigger time with various rifles and shotguns so that may have helped. Even shooting free hand would have been fairly easy had I not had a shoulder injury. I am so happy to be shooting a real bow again.
Good post Gusto.
Lighten up Chief . Your quote , " You can call them Bolts but they are just short arrows " . NO. You talk some good stuff on here but I came down hard because I don't want some kid thinking he can use up those old arrows in the garage with his crossbow . Nothing personal .
Crossbows ? I'm setting up 3 of them for hunters as we talk. 1- 21 years old . Tried a compound but didn't have time to pratice . 2- 45 year old gun hunter . Never bowhunted.
3- 58 year old . Bowhunts . Gunhunts. Just wants to try it .
I guess Ruger pretty well stated what the issues are...... I don't have time ,,,,, geesh
maybe that is why we had 2 seasons to begin with,,,,,,
I think the genie is out of the bottle, never going to change,,,,,,,,
Ground , When Grampa was on his deathbed at 85 years old , I asked him if he was scared of dieing . He smiled & said ," in 85 years everything changes so dramaticly & not to your liking that your glad to leave .
I have 12 years to go .
;-)
you have longer than that my friend,,,, I wish you well
dpms - I find it interesting that you come on this WI site from Pennsylvania, telling us how we Wisconsin bowhunters feel threatened by crossbows, and you do this by trying to sow the very seeds that you accuse us of - divisiveness. I find that you are perhaps attempting to serve your own motives rather than ours. Perhaps that is prevalent in PA?
I am not necessarily a "big tent' theorist, as many times special interests hide under that cloak. That was one of the mfgr's sales pitches early on. Frankly, they just took their money from our state and ran. Reference how the Wisconsin Crossbow Federation folded last fall. I am not certain why, and I thought it kind of funny with 89,000 licensed users, surely an organization like that could not find enough members? Did the manufacturers move on to another state to conquer by pulling funding? Once again, it seems to be all about the money.
No weapon of any kind, should not be scrutinized when it causes such a shift in numbers from one category to another. There are many issues here, not just one of kill numbers of deer. It seems to be what everyone dwells on, perhaps because that is what is easiest to quantify. (Perhaps there lies an answer as to why younger people don't join hunting groups-too often on the surface it appears to be only about the kill) I do not necessarily agree with the current situation, or the statistical proposals as presented. But there will be a meeting soon, and it will be discussed. I doubt they will make any immediate decisions, but it is part of the process. But crossbows have a separate season for a reason; when the season was established - those stakeholders that participated at that time agreed that this day would come. But if something needs to be reined in technology wise, then that is what they should do. Technological advances concern me with that weapon, as with any weapon. It can lead to short cuts in ethics, and you cannot legislate ethics, only equipment. A simple solution is to pull the scopes, leave the seasons alone. They should have done that in the first place.
Your point makes sense Ruger regarding the arrows / bolts my wording could have been a little clearer
I am a little confused by the argument of "take the scope away" or "make compound shooters not use a release". Do we really want people choosing a weapon to use for hunting deer, and take away accuracy improvements in order to "save" deer? People who use an "easier" weapon for harvesting a deer because they are lazy are not suddenly going to practice more because of no scope or no release. They will end up wounding more and recovering less. People who get it practice regardless of scope, release, etc in order to be the best they can be. Change dates, or whatever, but don't take away things that allow you to be more accurate, and up your chance of killing, not wounding. BTW, don't come back with "rifle with scope is more accurate that any of other weapon so any weapon anytime". My statement revolves around having the different weapon seasons, but not modifying current allowed accuracy devices of those weapons in order to lessen the harvest.
Ron sent this to me, note that crossbow hunters shot more bucks by percentage of hunters than gun hunters did.
There are 7 options, one of which will be selected to SET (not shorten) the WI crossbow season. Let that sink in. The WI crossbow season IS NOT BEING SHORTENED, ITS BEING SET. I think that is the part that has the most folks confused. The duration of the crossbow season was only temporary while data was gathered so the NRB could set the duration based on usage and success rates. A far smaller number of crossbowers (compared to bowhunters) killed bore bucks than a far greater number of bowhunters and because the trial years of the crossbow season ran the same length as bowhunting, it was a very fair way to find out just how impactful crossbowers would be.
The buck kill success rate for crossbowers is not only higher than bowhunters, its actually even higher than gun deer hunters. This is because of the long crossbow season (since it mirrored the WI archery seer season during the trial) and the effectiveness of the crossbow. Now that the trial years are over, and the data gathered, its time to set the crossbow season length (not shorten the crossbow season length as some are pretending).
This super high success rate for the crossbower was achieved with 2014-2018 technology. In 5 years, the crossbows used today will look like a joke. The crossbows of 10 years from now will make today's crossbows look like old recurves. All the while, bowhunters are limited by their own human strength to pull back a bow only as powerful as they are strong. This is why the success rate for bowhunters and gun deer hunters has remained static in the last few decades. Crossbows and crossbow technology is in its infancy for the modern crossbow hunter. Some have exceeded the 500 FPS barrier but are holding back as some states have a power limiter.
This season setting is proactive and in keeping with the text of the bill that created the crossbow season. That bill rested the authority of season setting for crossbowers to the DNR through rules promulgation (not requiring the legislature). This is why we worked to have that wording inserted and to totally separate crossbowing from bowhunting because we saw the history of crossbow success in other states. The goal was to prevent punishing or limiting bowhunting because of the successes of the crossbower. That is why there is a total separation and why crossbow hunting is in no way linked to bowhunting.
Here is the usage and success rates as of Jan. 15 from the DNR for both bowhunters and crossbowers. (the season is closed to both in most of the state as of Jan. 6 but a few counties still have bowhunting and crossbowing for 9 more days so that data is pretty much complete and I doubt any new licenses will be sold this season.
What is striking is that it takes so many fewer crossbowers to kill more bucks than 1.6 times as many bowhunters.
Crossbow licenses sold in 2018: 88,895
Archery deer licenses sold in 2018: 138,600 (1.6 times as many bowhunters as crossbowers)
but look at the kill.
Crossbow bucks: 25,883
Archery bucks: 21,605
Crossbowers also killed more antlerless deer as well
Crossbow does: 20,979
Archery does: 18,543
Crossbow buck success rate per lic. sold: 29.1%
Archery buck success rate per lic. sold: 15.5%
Gun deer hunter buck success rate per lic sold: 22%
As you can see, the crossbower today (and it will be bigger next year and the year after that and so on) has the highest success rate (even higher than gun deer hunters) because of the long crossbow season during the trial years. Now the season duration is being set based not on emotion of bowhunters throwing a tantrum but based on usage and success for crossbow technology in 2018 and thinking about crossbow technology in the future.
I wish we could see % of wounded deer crossbow vs vert bow
The answer is very simple . Each new generation ( most not all) want ( IT ) quicker & easier . Its that simple .
This new GEN. Wants it now . If its a gun they want gun, scope, case , sling, ammo & sighted in .
Crossbow . Bolts, quiver , scope , Cocker , pratice & hunting tips. Tuned & sited in . They want to walk out the door & hunt.
Scary to think what the next GEN will want for weapons .
Chief, I believe percentage wise, a lot more are wounded (Hit and not Found) with X-guns than Vert bows. A lot of the shots with a vert bow are not even taken because of issues with drawing and being busted, etc. Lots of story's heard by me and others from the shooter who have lost multiple deer with a x-gun (thinking they have a rifle?) Ron's message to Jeff above is correct, the season is being "set" for x-guns. There is NO set season right now.
Some serious word-smithing was used above. Today, there is a crossbow season. It runs concurrent with the archery season. If the changed crossbow season (2019) is shorter than the current one (2014-2018), then the season was shortened. Likewise, if the changed crossbow season is longer than the current one, then the season was lengthened. Not sure how that could be argued. Seems like simple math to me. It was once set to run concurrent with the archery season, then analyzed, and now it will be changed (likely shortened from what it was).
But, to keep the word-smithers happy, I think the season in 2019 will be "set" to less days than it was in 2018. That totally works for me and makes sense. I hope though that does not impact those who are disabled.
MI does not allow xbows in the UP after gun season in the late archery season. They are not even allowed under the lesser-weapons law during the muzzeloader season. That was good foresight by MI. I'll be curious to see how WI shortens the xbow season.
Thanx Ron and Jeff for the Post,
Of the 25,883 bucks killed by xguns you have to wonder how many made it to the P/Y book? I had a bear client this year that shot a 350'r with his xgun. He did not in anyway shape or form want his picture taken with the xgun. Hmmmm I know of others that keep switching back and forth between their vertical bow and the their xgun in the same season.Whats Really unusual is every time they kill a buck and it makes the P/Y book its with their vertical bow. Makes One Wonder. The tant will always be there. I will be surprised if they do anything with the xgun season. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
"I wish we could see % of wounded deer crossbow vs vert bow"
How would you even find accurate data on such a thing? Not bashing you by any means, I'm curious. There is a guy with a tracking dog that shows his tracks on youtube. The Callie Chronicles. He lists all the info of the hunt/hit before each video. I think his tracks this year may have leaned more to crossbow hunters. But that's just going off my memory. Even if that is correct it is by no means a "scientific" poll. But I do believe that talking to guys with tracking dogs and seeing which weapon was used may be about the closest thing to "perfect" on this.
Here's what the wdnr said. Rrrrrrrrrrrrr !
Comparing the success rate of a gun season that’s 9 days. To a season that’s 5 months long is ludicrous. Pick any concurrent 9 days of that 5 month period and then tell me the success rate is for those days.
There is so much chit being spewed on pure speculation in the above comments. WOW
Hunting with a bow and arrow( bowhunting) is in serious decline. Crossbow hunting is on the increase.
Does anyone still not believe me, lol,lol,lol?
"Comparing the success rate of a gun season that’s 9 days. To a season that’s 5 months long is ludicrous. Pick any concurrent 9 days of that 5 month period and then tell me the success rate is for those days."
So you are saying archery season should only be 9 days? Or are you saying gun season should be 5 months? Maybe that crossbows are superior weapons and should only get 9 days?
Rut I was just saying that would be interesting info not that you would ever be able to get it haha
Rut
Not looking at shortening anything other than the timeline data on success rates being used.
This study is a little dated but looks like 18% is the wounding rate and is equal between the two.
DT, you do not seem to understand what a “rate” is.
In fact, between 2008 and 2013, the average annual archery harvest, with vertical bows only, was 90,000 deer.
From 2014 through 2017, with crossbows included, the average harvest declined to 87,000 deer.
This season, through December 18, bow and crossbow hunters combined bagged just over 82,000 deer.
Those numbers are from the arrow's link he provided from above. If one actually looks at that data with an open mind, you'd see that the sky is not falling. Even with the higher xbow kill rate that Jeff pointed out, the total overall bow kills is lower than when xbows were allowed by all. It is those numbers that have made me not despise xbows the way others have.
I don't believe xbows belong in the archery season. They are a far superior weapon. But, to me, it is what it is, and the numbers have shown no detriment to deer hunting in WI at all.
Round and round and round and round we go. New numbers same ole logic. When wrist rockets came out they were superior to a sling shot, but they were both sling shots. There is no compairing a xgun to a compound. Completely different weapon.
Completely different weapons also
Maybe sticks should get the long season and crossbows / compounds get two shorter seasons and we can cut the deer harvest in half oh and I get to be the only one that can hunt all 3 of those seasons
Happy, it is the buck kill that gives me pause, not the overall kill. I do not believe the crossbow will endanger our deer herd, I believe the crossbow had the potential to affect firearm hunters perception. At least the crossbow can be judged on its own merits and not commingled with the archery season.
Chief, you and Jake can “what if” all different scenarios. However, facts are acts and the fact is that the crossbow season is the one being looked at.
I'm being honest, verticle, hand held, drawn by the power of the user, shoots an arrow, no scope,not pre- loaded, or shoulder fired. I am sure I missed some but if we are being "honest" we all know what they are, don't we. They don't need repeating.
Thanks Cap I like asking the what if, it helps to not get railroaded by zealots
Monarch - "Accuracy should not be taken away" So you are saying 'pin sights' cannot allow someone to be accurate out of the box/pro shop at 40 yards? Seems to suit compound people just fine. What about the people who say "I would never shoot out to 100 yards anyway"? Then why do you NEED a scope? And realize that the ads about "your next rifle" have no bearing on arguments anymore by removing the scopes? The 100 yard shots will be FAR LESS likely to happen without a scope. AND it does leash the rapid advancement and the edge crossbows have over the others weapons in the field. Who cares if a crossbow shoots a deer at 350 fps at 30 yards or 470 fps at the same distance; pins still put one in the boiler room. But it does make a difference for taking an ethical shot, and for evening up the technology between pinned compounds and scoped crossbows. And someone earlier inferred that a crossbow scope offers little advantage with magnification, mostly grid sight adjustment - I don't shoot a crossbow, but that is a bit hard to swallow. Pins tend to cover kill zones completely at distance, apparently, crossbow scopes do not if they are shooting 3" groups at 100 yards and farther. If a piece of equipment is allowed, it will be used. I said it earlier, you can't legislate ethics, but you can legislate equipment.
happygolucky = 'wordsmithing' - No it is not wordsmithing when you realize that the crossbow season at enactment was agreed to be analyzed after 3 years of harvest. It is being overlooked regularly and / or ignored. So the DNR in 2014 agreed to that analysis, dragged their feet on timing (3 yrs vs 5 yrs of data), got called out on it by the WBH(who take the heat for that, I might add), and finally then the NRB frames reasons for change based on kill ratios. DNR statistics should be considered a bit suspect, but the trend on crossbow activity is overwhelming. (I think they have tried every which way to flatten the curves between the weapons) It is tricky business, and fast moving. Look back on statistics with a grain of salt, but look ahead on technology changes too.
Gun hunters are shifting into earlier time frames via the crossbow, and in some cases, abandoning the gun season altogether. That brings a lot more people into the woods early on. Any accountant can tell you overall units being equal is one thing; but a big change in the mix within the total can make a big difference in operations.
Jake compounds aren't as easy as you make them out to be. If they were they would be the weapon of choice for the elderly/handicapped. But they aren't, crossbows are.
Jake, is a compound easier...yes. I can be honest. Is it a whole different concept..no! And like Captain stated above and I stated in the last x gun thread, this is not about stick or Compound its about the x gun season. You have the same 2 cents worth you had two months ago. Same talking point over and over..stick vs compound. Thats not what the debate is about. Its about. Its about after 5 yrs of testing,having its own results, it is time to finalize its seasons time frame. For me I would comprmise for #3 or #5 of the above. How about you?
The wounding rate is 18% and is equal between bowhunters and crossbowers based on a study conducted in Maryland.
Article is at the link. Bottom of page 32 has the chart. Does that number apply in Wisconsin, I have no clue.
This is from Pritzl
But first, one must acknowledge the trend that began more than two decades ago in Wisconsin's woods.
"More of the harvest shifting to the archery season and out of that 9-day traditional gun season," says DNR Regional Wildlife Biologist Jeff Prtizl.
That trend peaked in the mid-2000's when bow hunters harvested more than 100,000 deer in three different years.
Then, from 2008 to 2013, archery hunters harvested between 99,000 and 83,000 deer, depending on the season.
In 2014, the use of crossbows became legal for all hunters statewide.
"There are certain trends that we're capturing now that we're five years in," says Pritzl.
According to Pritzl, license sales data reveals the number of hunters pursuing deer during the archery season has stayed about the same since crossbows became legal, but the choice of weapon continues to shift.
"For the first time in 2017, actually, more animals were harvested with a crossbow than a vertical bow, just barely, and this year, we're not finished yet, but that trend is running about 54 percent crossbow, 46 percent vertical bow across the board, all deer."
As for the crossbow impact on the overall statewide harvest during the archery season, it's very little.
In fact, between 2008 and 2013, the average annual archery harvest, with vertical bows only, was 90,000 deer.
From 2014 through 2017, with crossbows included, the average harvest declined to 87,000 deer.
This season, through December 18, bow and crossbow hunters combined bagged just over 82,000 deer.
While some in the hunting community feel crossbows give hunters an unfair advantage at harvesting trophy bucks before the gun season, Pritzl doesn't envision any sweeping changes involving the use of crossbows moving forward.
"I think ultimately what we understand is that these are based on values and attitudes and those shift or move slowly, so I don't anticipate anything radical happening in the near future. These things tend to, if you look back, they've adjusted over time. Those adjustments will continue in the future, and it tends to happen pretty slowly," says Pritzl.
I don't predict much change if any......Just wishful thinking.
Jeff thanks for looking that up about the wounding rate I think is interesting for sure!
To me a scope on a crossbow isn't the better accuracy . Its that a person can sit in his stand much later then a guy with a peep sight , actually if there's snow on the ground and a partial moon they could probably sit there all night . Also if a person takes one out during gun season you don't get to hear that late shot after shooting hours like you do with a gun .
It is the poachers dream weapon now that all can legally have them in there vehicle.
Actually a poacher is going to use a weapon that is easy to use and quiet. Do they want to pull back a bow, no, do they want to fire a gun, no, that leaves the ultimate poachers weapon, a xgun.
I think the crossbow has a use. Until a few years ago, it had an appropriate season when it was legal for those over 65 and also legal to use in the firearm season under the lessor weapons rule.
And because I hate trolling while fishing I think they should only allow one line per license.
The crossbow season as sits is just fine and Pritzl thinks the same.
I would have been fine with xbows being added for people 55+. I believe that was part of the discussion at first.
Given how the total kills between archery and xbows combined has actually decreased in average from the 4 years prior to xbows coming into play for all, I think it will be a tough argument to get the xbow season changed. The xbow organizations (are there any outside of the NRA?) have good statistical information to use. The stats showing a larger buck kill rate (what was it in the 4 years before xbows?) which amounts to a few thousand bucks with a herd of say 1.2m-1.5m, really carries no weight overall when looked at realistically. It will be interesting watching it all play out.
I think you have to remember it's only 4 yrs and the #s have increased at a dramatic rate. Why not put an end to this or at least restrict the use of a superior weapon in the archery season. Option 8 is the best, 65+ and disabled only and gun season for all. I've been reading a lot of facebook post from different groups lately and you would not believe all the xgunners who want to decrease the days of the archery season. Xgunners will have the #s and just because xguns were allowed into the archery season we are the ones who will pay. I would really like to pound nots on those xgunners heads who mouth off on those sites. :)
Xbows were not allowed in the archery season. They have their own season that runs concurrently with bow season. Just like some small game seasons do also.
I do not believe it is always about numbers. But if it were, what is the threshold for change? If we like it or not, politics are involved and as most of us understand, politics is much more driven by people’s perception than it is by pure fact.
Since the crossbow season started the take of the two combined weapons was 88,000+/- prior to that the bow only take was 100,000+
Where was the concern then?
These numbers are all out of whack . Some of your are useing # from the old system . Tag'em & off the Reg station . A lot more Deer are being killed north of 29 than the DNR knows .
Problem # 2 . I hunt 100% public land . I never saw a crossbow in the woods until prime Rut time . No surprize there .
Some of you are going to be shocked at the Deer dynamics 5 years from now .
DT, do you not understand what I said about perception and politics or are you not responding to me?
So now we are worried about perception? Of who??
It’s all about numbers, if not why are there quotas and registrations? In all the CDAC meetings I have been to I have never herd the word perception referenced.
Also why deflect from my question. Where was the concern when bowhunters were killing 100,000+ deer a season?
"A lot more Deer are being killed north of 29 than the DNR knows . " how do we substantiate this?
DT if it weren't for your wife's situation. What would your view on crossbows be? That'll be hard for you to answer, because you just can't blank it from your mind.
DT, apparently you are not well informed on rules and laws. The legislature makes laws and that is who implemented the crossbow season.
Deflecting.....
Where was the concern when bowhunters were killing 100,000+ deer a season?
Why do you live in the past? Your argument has no validity and is not relevant to the issue. You are fighting from a losing perspective. That you persist only highlights the shallowness of your argument.
Capt. take a look at years 1991 - 2013 where was the concern then???
I want to hate xbows. I really do, other than for disabled hunters of which I have 2 friends. But, I can't get past the numbers and do believe the numbers are telling the story. Prior to xbows coming into WI, I researched what happened in Ohio and MI, and the results were quite similar to what we're seeing. That is why I have never got to this hatred level that most have acquired. I'm just not seeing the negative impact. Is that still to come? Perhaps.
It is really hard to make a valid argument when the numbers show less deer killed with archery and xbows combined than previously with xbows only. That is across 4 years so not just a fluke year.
Again, it will be fun to watch it all play out. I still think that somehow the xbow season will be "set" to less days than exists now but a very compelling argument will need to be made. As Captain Mike pointed out, it is political and about money and that is what won the 1st time. If the NRA takes a back seat, a reduced season would be a possibility.
Jake, because you repeat it does not make it relevant. Rather, it tends to make you irrelevant.
Come on Capt. dont bandy words. Where is your answer??
If you want to talk numbers. Why were crossbows rammed through to begin with? Numbers as in money.
If we are going to screw up perfectly good archery seasons with a superior weapon, let's not go half ass. Better open it up to any weapon choice. After all who cares how someone else hunts as long as it's legal. Sept 15th-Jan 1st every year any weapon you want. We don't need no stinking bow season.
DT,
You are missing the point about the numbers. It has to do with buck success rate. The archery season was set to mirror the success rate of the two user groups. Typically, the success rate between archery and gun was between 32-34%. Now you have a user group with a success rate approximately 10% higher than the other 2 user groups. The way to equalize this is to shorten the xbow season until success rates mirror each other. . As xbow user increase and technology advances, this rate will increase. This trend was shown to happen in several states after full inclusion.
As for technology in VB, really name one advancement in the last 5 years which increased speed or accuracy. Crossbows have just begun as the money is pouring in.
That discussion belongs on one of the other crossbow threads. This one is on justifying adjusting the crossbow season and I’m waiting on a reply from Capt.
DT I'm not speaking for Capt Mike. But the big numbers argument isn't as much total number of deer taken by xbows. It's the buck success rate and how quickly that has risen. Common sense tells us that it won't take long for gun only hunters to get riled about the steadily increasing buck kill by xbow hunters. Once the gun only crowd gets riled, they have the numbers to get things done. Don't forget it was mostly gun hunters squawking that got EAB abolished. Do you think they will just want xbow season reduced? NO, they will want all of archery season reduced.
Of course you know all this. You are only digging your heels in so hard due to a personal situation. I get that and don't blame you a bit.
Geitz, again, I'm looking at numbers open minded. Please correct me where I am wrong. The increased buck success rate accounts for what, a few thousand bucks overall. How many of those would still be killed by a compound hunter or gun hunter who switched? A few thousand bucks means nothing with a herd the size of the WI herd. The overall kills are down. If anything, the overall herd size has most likely increased the last 4 years.
Well duh. The herd was devastated for two winters in a row? immediately prior to crossbows. The herd had nowhere to go but up.
Good points Geitz.........
“Well duh. The herd was devastated for two winters in a row? immediately prior to crossbows. The herd had nowhere to go but up.”
2011 - 44,000 Bucks harvested
2012 - 45,000 bucks harvested
2013 - 41,000 bucks harvested
The above numbers don’t correlate that statement.
If I understand the crossbow haters, it seems as if they are mainly worried about someone else shooting their buck, or a lack of bucks parading by for them to choose from. Is it possible that what's really going on is lack of effort to put on a few miles and actually hunt deer? Maybe the bucks have smartened up and are avoiding some of these heated box blinds on food plots overlooking a few kernels of hand shucked corn that compound users hunt from, causing some hunters to think that crossbow users are to blame for the lack of buck sightings rather than understanding that their personal lack of success could be nothing other than self-inflicted?
It's hard for me to believe that the crossbow season will be shortened from what it is now (taking days away from the number of days there currently are in the season would indeed be considered "shortening the season") based on a small group of guys who apparently don't want to play nicely and share their bucks with others. Of course stranger things have happened.
Well duh. The herd was devastated for two winters in a row? immediately prior to crossbows. The herd had nowhere to go but up.
An increased herd size makes the combined xbow/archery kill decrease even more perplexing when you compare it to a "devastated" herd size.
Another clueless xgunner.^^
DT, are you a politician?
Doorknob . No techy Data on my comment . Just an opinion based on " stuff " we hear around Bars , Gun clubs , Gunshows , & so on .
How much of a problem is it ? Just a guessing game now .
Happy, I am not following you point. The crossbow hunters have an advantage over bowhunters and gun hunters, i.e. a longer season than gun hunters and a further range, no draw needed compared to bowhunters. So if all the crossbowhunters used a compound during the bow season or a gun during the gun season they would kill thousands less bucks. That is what this whole discussion is about. Not sure how else to state it.
“DT, are you a politician?”
Ouch, such an insult.
Glunker
All said and done though. Bowhunters killed more bucks in the years leading up to the crossbow season than the bow and crossbow hunters combined are killing presently.
DT, one last time. It is the efficiency and range of the crossbow that has made buck killing easier than any other weapon during our present season structure. You are comparing kills from years that have large population differences among other things. So if 200,000 compound hunters kill say 50,000 buck on an average year, then100,000 compound and 100,000 crossbow hunters would kill 58,000 bucks. But looking at trends more bowhunters will switch and crossbow hunters are just learning their sport, as they gain experience their kill will rise. As crossbows are still evolving they will gain more efficiencies [further range, quiter, faster reloading, lighter mass]. Compounds have plateaued as to large efficiency gains. Gun hunters are more affected than bowhunters in the future but I am not saying bowhunters are will not be decisively affected by our present crossbow season/regulation.
The winters of 12/13 and 13/14 were the bad winters. I believe the first year of crossbow inclusion was '14. So the years you reference don't have any bearing.
So now your changing your statement “immediately prior to crossbows”
Are you a politician? LOL
Glunker I appreciate the reply. But all said and done Bowhunters killed 44k, 45k, and 41k bucks in years 2011 -2013 and there was no issue. Crossbow hunters kill more than bow hunters and now there is a issue.
Lets just make it one long season only 1 buck tag per person and 2 does archery type equipment always (most people don't eat more than that anyway) any weapon you like on the weekends (which means blaze orange) from 1 Oct to last weekend in December, would reduce the overall stress on the herd and hunting pressure, then we can all shut up and just focus on providing useful hunting info and lessons learned instead of all this hippy dippy bulls**t
Here you go folks. The crossbow discussion starts at 2:45:00 and ends at 3:16:00. It gets quite interesting. For those of you that are older than 65 you should know, it is mentioned that because of the way the legislation was written the DNR cannot go back to the 65 and older rules. Kaz tries to refute that immediately and Eric states, the DNR's legal counsel advised him that this is in fact the case. I'm unsure if that includes handicap as well. I didn't notice if it wasn't mentioned.
"All said and done though. Bowhunters killed more bucks in the years leading up to the crossbow season than the bow and crossbow hunters combined are killing presently."
Well no shit there were no separate categories then.
Way to go fellas picking on the elderly and disabled. At least I can say I fought it.
“Well no shit there were no separate categories then.”
Exactly, there were no crossbows in those seasons and bowhunters on their own merits killed more. Thanks for proving my point.
DT, you either suffer from comprehension issues or go to great lengths to attempt to justify your wife’s choice of weapon. Whatever it is, you have shown yourself to be difficult to discuss anything with because of your refusal to stay on topic. Jake, as I told you in a PM, I am away on vacation so I am not willing to get into long drawn out discussions about issues not pertinent to the issue. Have anice night.
"Exactly, there were no crossbows in those seasons and bowhunters are on their own merits killed more. Thanks for proving my point."
You have to be a liberal. Only a lib can look at something that is obvious as hell and twist it to be their own imaginary tale.
Nope but I’m not biased and blinded by greed either.
Well on the upside its only 235 days until we can start chasing deer again
"Way to go fellas picking on the elderly and disabled."
Do you really think that when the season is set, they will not reinstitute the elderly/handicap part?
Rut read my post. The way the legislation was written they legally can not revert back to old rules. Per The DNR’s legal council.
Thank the crossbow zealots for that.
What ever makes you feel good Capt. If this is indeed the case and come true I can see discrimination lawsuits being filed. I guaranty Kaz is shitting bricks right now with the can of worm he opened. He instantly tried to refute it when it was brought to his attention and was just as quickly shut down and legalities explained.
They will take care of it.
DT, it sounds like you are off your medication. What currently makes me feel good was a nice evening meeting with outfitters from around the world at a Houston SCI event. A nice meal with drinks also helped to make me feel good. Sorry to burst your bubble but I completely forgot about the trauma regards the crossbow conversations on this site. LOL!
Lets try this link... If this won't work maybe someone that has the WSJ can link the whole story.
Jake didn't you call RJN a jerk in a thread? And he isnt even the one who put your buddies dads picture on here. Could that also be deemed belittling? You surely are infatuated with Capt. and it is starting to take on a resemblance of jealousy maybe? Soon you will have your friend's like splittoe and the xbows gang here to try and thwart the negatives in having the crossgun in the archery season. Did you mean boast or did you indeed mean boosts?
Good luck on your trip Mike. What is funny you got a guy defending cross guns but at the spring hearings he blasted the use of scopes on muzzle loaders. What a hypocrite.
Happy, I am not following you point. The crossbow hunters have an advantage over bowhunters and gun hunters, i.e. a longer season than gun hunters and a further range, no draw needed compared to bowhunters. So if all the crossbowhunters used a compound during the bow season or a gun during the gun season they would kill thousands less bucks. That is what this whole discussion is about. Not sure how else to state it.
I concur 100% that xbows are a far superior weapon. I also concur they should not run concurrently with the archery season. However, I continue to struggle to get past the overall kill rates which combined, are lower than when xbows were not allowed by all.
I feel that some of the kills by xbow hunters would have happened anyway by some people who converted. My 2 disabled friends who hunt with xbows now (and wish they could still shoot their compounds) used to get their deer every year with their compounds.
Now, if every archery hunter were to convert to an xbow and the season stayed the same length, I think there would be an issue. That is not happening.
RIght now, the numbers continue to tell me a story that says they've been a non-impact; surely one far less than people predicted. It is due to that, that I don't hate people who shoot xbows that way most here do. When the numbers change, then my opinion most likely will too. Luckily, with separate seasons, changes can be made and it looks like will be.
I do believe one of the recommendations to "set" the xbow season to less days will be implemented. I'm in favor of that although the numbers don't warrant it. None of them in all actuality is a big give for the xbow people other than the one where they could not hunt on any weekends. As I noted before, xbows are not allowed in the late season in the UP or as a lesser weapon in the smoke pole season, so that option would be what I would choose.
Happy- why wouldn't xguns be allowed in the muzzleloader season? That's where they belong, in the gun seasons. Also more hunters are passing does to manage the herd and only shooting bucks. The result is more bucks being killed with xguns because it's easier to kill them. I'm not from the north but I'm guessing if the deer #s were high like some areas of the south, xgun #s would be much higher. Time for a change.
Jake, you too are laughable. Arguing a moot point might be great entertainment for someone with nothing else to do. I simply explained why I could care less about talking about a point that irrelevant to the conversation. “Kaz is shitting bricks?” Think about how foolish that statement is. It is only you and DT that attempt to continue a non-starting point.
Thanks Buck, was hoping to enjoy a little warmer weather but woke up this AM to 33 degrees outside.
Happy, I understand your points about the significance of the numbers but as I posted earlier, not all laws and rules are made purely from raw numbers. Hunter sentiment is a very real issue that politicians pay attention to. And as you noted, this action is being done to set the season, after the trial period has ended. Some folks here do not seem to be able to grasp that concept.
Happy, think about all the times hunting during the rut you have seen that true trophy animal come through out of bow range and no hope for a shot. I can honestly say it happens to me at least twice a year and some years many times. I know for a fact, most of those animals would have been shot by me if I had a x-gun in my hands, no doubt. That will be the biggest concern. The x-gunners call it greed of the bowhunters and are grasping at straws with that comment. It is the conservation of the resource that we have in WI. The resource being the trophy whitetails that exist in WI. If I was a gun only hunter and really wanted to gun hunt trophy animals, I would drop the bang gun and use the x-gun and hunt the main part of the rut. It would be a no brainer.
Jake, you are a broken record, still turning but making nothing but scratchy noise. Your point is irrelevant and your persistence only further marginalizes your opinions.
Jake, My kill ratio has not changed since I went from a compound to a stick bow. Just an FYI.
Happy- why wouldn't xguns be allowed in the muzzleloader season? That's where they belong, in the gun seasons. Also more hunters are passing does to manage the herd and only shooting bucks. The result is more bucks being killed with xguns because it's easier to kill them. I'm not from the north but I'm guessing if the deer #s were high like some areas of the south, xgun #s would be much higher. Time for a change.
Good ? as to why they are not allowed as a lesser weapon. I'm guessing it is because they want to allow more of the woods to the smoke pole people. xbows can easily be used in the condos which are prevalent in the UP. They are not allowed in the late season in the UP because they are a superior weapon and when the deer yard up (which happens earlier in the UP), they could really impact the rates. This was a good rule made by MI - IMHO. I'm sure there are far more xbow hunters than ML hunters so they erred on the safe side I'm guessing.
As for the buck kill rate - when I look at the real numbers, a few thousand bucks means squat when the herd is probably sitting around 1.5m critters. Bucks don't really impact the herd and that is why we are still a 2 buck state. I do agree with Capt Mike in that the buck kill part is mostly about hunter sentiment; mostly though with the gun hunters. The archery hunters and xbow hunters have to be careful not to be greedy and try to take away from them because if they ever unite, then our archery season can be impacted.
"When compound hunters give up their releases (because it is an unfair advantage over stickbow shooters) I will give up my scope." ???
How about giving up your trigger mechanism? The argument is not distance, FPS or accuracy. It a weapon which it's energy is stored, much like a gun, and is release with the pull of the trigger. Whether a release is used or not, a bowhunter must pull back it's energy and physically hold it until it is released. This advantage is huge
Jake, it's dedication and passion. Good huntin to you.
There’s less deer where I hunt then there were as of 6 years ago based on cam pics. DNR has no clue on population of deer, bear, wolves, cats, turkeys. Maybe that’s why harvest numbers are same or less.
Harvest numbers are down the last few years. Online/call in registration the last few years. Coincidence????
Yep rut. I’ve known of a few hunters who don’t bother making the call. Shot a 167” in 16’. Best call I’ve made to date.
I think a lot of people forget to call in/check it in online. By the time they remember they are afraid there will be repercussions. Going to the check in stations was automatic for most.
Or they forget they shot it with a bow and register it as a crossbow kill.
Could be a reason why the success rate doubled in 2015 from what it was in 2014.
xbow shooters can skew the numbers in the other direction. $3 is all it takes. I bet this is already happening in both directions.
Jake you are really fishing on that one. Nobody from the WBH is advocating that deer get registered incorrectly to taint the other sides statistical results. Good grief, they don't have that many members to even make a dent in the differences.
Jake dont cross gunners meet and talk at bars. If you know something turn them in
Jake the only thread you comment on is cross gun threads. You come here as an advocate and we get it. You are a strong soldier in your beliefs, we get it. Im sure your fellow cross gunners are proud of you and your defiant stance. But seriously it is tiresome. Thank you for your efforts with your repeated compound vs. traditional arguments. Please go back to Nation full time and leave bowhunting site to bowhunters. Take care and happy hunting.
Yeah, like after their monthly crossbow federation meetings? Lol!!
God, family, one's job, friends...
I think the debate is on the dates for use of the crossbow but if I'm not mistaken they didn't change for this year although there were some pretty good options put forward
We can only hope they shorten it way down.
As hunting technology of all types advance, hunting opportunity with all weapons will likely decrease. This may be in the form of shorter seasons, limited draws, quota seasons, fewer antlerless tags, one buck per year, etc. In fact, this is already taking place. Wisconsin bear tags are an example when compared to 25 years ago. Whitetail deer populations do better than almost all other managed species, but in many areas their numbers too are not unlimited.
As hunting technology of all types advance, hunting opportunity with many weapons will likely decrease. This may be in the form of shorter seasons, limited draws, quota seasons, fewer antlerless tags, one buck per year, etc. In fact, this is already taking place. Wisconsin bear tags are an example when compared to 25 years ago. Whitetail deer populations do better than almost all other managed species, but in many areas their numbers too are not unlimited.
Please take your arguments about crossbows off of Bowsite. Bowsite is for archers and any debate about crossbows can be handled on crossbow websites.
No one under 65 that is healthy and wise needs a xbow..... if your in good shape get off your ass and shoot a bow..... that is why its called archery season//// I shoot a long bow, most trad shooters are full of bs...... pull a bow back its archery
If you want to talk cross bows, go to their forum,,,, if you think this is your place your wrong......
NO one hear could care less about xbows, just more bs
I don't like this topic so I have tried to stay out of it...but recently I bought a traditional bow and have been doing a lot of shooting, so I thought I could give a better opinion than before when I was just shooting my compound. I will say there is a difference between trad and compound, but to say that compounds are not real bows is either ignorance or someone is just doing it to troll. The differences between compound and trad are far less that the differences between a compound and a xbow, its really not comparable. Now I don't have a ton of xbow experience or expertise but my dad does have one (he is 71 yrs old with a bad shoulder) and it has gotten him back into the woods in the fall and I think that is a great thing. I helped him sight his xbow in when he got it and I was amazed. It took about 4 shots to get it punching dimes at 20 yards and about 6 more to get it absolutely dialed in out to 50 yards. This is all with an old man with bad shoulders and poor eyesight shooting it. I don't know of many people who could do the same thing with any compound, much less a guy with bad shoulders and bad eyes. I am not here to bash xbows because I think for people over a certain age, weather its 55 60 or 65 and for people with handicaps they are awesome! I will be the first to admit that when the day comes that I can no longer effectively use my compound I will not stop hunting, and therefore I will use a xbow. It is just my opinion that xbows have their place and that is not with able bodied individuals using them all season.
I think some of these issues would be solved by just separating the season for use, I shoot both xbow and compound I've got bad shoulders from the army so some days I can pull it back and some days its not ethical I could care less which days I can use which weapon just like heading to the woods gives me something to look forward to
Compounds are at least hand drawn.
Xbows can be hand drawn, just gotta lift some weights first
I can’t believe you numbskulls are rehashing this once again.
Jake, so you do agree able bodied hunters should not be using xbows?
Missouribreaks 08-Jun-19 - "Compounds are at least hand drawn."
Holy Crap, with 80% let off and with a trigger release, that is a game changer. Does a drop away rest and a lighted pendulum sight make it more difficult also?
I said "at least ", not endorsing them in any way. Scoped crossbows are the next logical progression from the latest compounds, not a whole lot of difference other than the short hand drawing.
The acceptance of compound bows and their ever increasing let off by the archery community, and the constant caving by the P&Y club paved the way for the modern scoped crossbow. There is no turning back, we are there. Real bowhunting is in serious decline, scoped crossbow hunting is on the increase everywhere they are legal.
For those that keep saying crossbows are in the archery season that is not true, crossbow users have their own season, a separate season. That way if the powers that be decide crossbow users are killing too many of the compound users deer crossbow season can be shortened, while leaving the archery season just as it is. hahaha hard to say that without laughing as if it'll ever happen hahahaha.
I'm a stick bow shooter and embrace compound usage because they are a bow.
Gun hunters embrace crossbows because they are kin and not a bow.
I thought the thread on "Nuts?" Was about Jake and the crossbowers but mistaken.
Brewers just won again! Go Brewcrew!!!
You must still be making money off of custom stocks for cross guns?
You are correct. I don't need to harvest a whitetail. All the guys using cross guns are done in the first week since it's so easy. I have no ego to feed killing one. Plus they (crossgunners) need help in processing them all.
Wow.. you resort to being stupid with response. Musta touched a nerve. It's all good Jake. No need to call your boys for support. Happy shooting cause you ain't bow hunting.
Paskyinhell - If you are going anyplace today, you better get a designated driver.
Dang ... he called one of his buddies.
HeLlo ScEniaL SHooter err I mean old hunter. I'm waiting for my uber driver now. Because of your handle , I'm assuming your old??? I know your muscles are weakened with age but you can at least you can exercise your trigger finger without much effort.
Are you really split toe? He was a gem.
Jake do you use a jig saw or a band saw when you make those stocks?
That are called stocks ike a firearm aren't they? Cause they ain't risers like a bow.
I use a crossbow and could process your deer no problem
I believe your referring to two different components stocks vs limbs better to be correct for arguments sake. And also anyone could be done in the first two weeks if they can shoot worth a pi** and don't care what they kill
Hi Chief - first let me say that lab pic was awesome. I had to put my black lab down and was as hard as burying my brother at 45 from heart attack. She was my girl.
Not sure how old your are or if disabled so will refrain from commenting. Limbs are limbs and a riser is a riser on a bow. cross guns don't have risers they are stocks like a firearm.
Gotta get up at 3am for work and my Uber just showed up at the bar. So signing off for a awhile. Later Jake and your entourage of cross gunners!
Jake, are you really an adult? Very difficult to tell from the crap that you type.
Little Jakey, get off of mommies computer. It is making you believe you are a tough guy when in fact you are just a little nothing. Nitey night!
The likely trends will continue as they are today...... Scoped crossbows will grow in use and remain the dominant weapon during the archery seasons. The use of compound bows will continue to decline except in states where scoped crossbows are not yet legal for all hunters. Stickbows will enjoy the small niche they occupy today and remain about neutral in their use as a primary hunting weapon during archery seasons. Simply owning a stickbow for targets and antlerless deer does not make one a primary stickbow hunter. Very few are hunters with a stickbow as their primary archery weapon, but there are some who are so dedicated.
Real bowhunting as defined by the P&Y Club is in decline and record book entries have become tainted, make bowhunting great again!
Why don't you out of state wanna be archers just go to a crossbow site
Are all Wisconsinites as immature as these guys. Must be in the water here. Are there any adults here that can provide any insight to future real bow, compound bow or cross bow seasons?
Unfortunately Slicer, the name calling is a very common theme in these parts. Some people are able to have big boy conversations and state opinions allowing others to the same and others just sling insults. The WI board has a terrible reputation on the Big Game Board. xbows are a very touchy subject here.
I have an unpopular opinion here that bowhunting is still alive and well. My son and I really enjoy our time in the woods shooting our compounds and don't judge others on their weapons of choice. People want the misery loves compound mantra and I have found no reason to fall for it - yet.
Crossbow became legal for all in Ct in 2013. I've been bowhunting since 1991. I use a compound. I have not noticed a difference in deer numbers or any other catastrophic result from allowing them. At first there were some people that rushed right out and bought one. But then they found out that warm weather hunting wasn't for them and the added challenge was not fun. Most of those people gave it up. Steady as she goes... the sun will rise even with crossbows in the woods.
with all due respect "this is not Ct" a whole different world
CT is correct, the sun will rise with crossbows in the woods. Ground Hunter is also correct. We harvest 30x more deer than CT.
Slicer - Sad to say, but if you were to read and follow all the threads on bowsite since 2013 with the word crossbow in it, you will find that all the insulting starts with the anti crossbow crowd. Bottom line is that no crossbow hunter is telling a compound hunter that they can not hunt with a compound bow, but the compound hunters are telling the crossbow hunters they can not hunt with a crossbow. A crossbow hunter might shoot "their" Deer.
It is unlikely scoped crossbows will ever substantially reduce population numbers. This due in part to decreasing interest in hunting.... and mostly to the fact game managers regulate the harvest by reducing tags, shortening seasons, quota systems, limited drawings, limiting female animal harvest etc, etc. Therefore, populations will do fine. Where scoped crossbows are legal for all hunters, for certain expect decreased opportunity at every level..... especially for big game species other than whitetail deer in high density states and invasives such as hogs.
Scoped crossbow threads do well here because most on the Wisconsin forum use them, or have purchased scoped crossbows for able bodied family members. Kind of strikes a nerve with many!
Awwwww Yawn.... Wake me up when this conversation is over
Scoped and triggered crossbows at 100% let off were the next logical step from the 85% let off and triggered compounds. Were those who endorsed the ever increasing let off compounds the enablers to the scoped crossbow? How did we get here? Yawn.
What decade did you stop being relevant, Missouri?
The P&Y club altered their stance on compound let off on more than one occasion. If the P&Y score is to honor the animal and not the hunter, why does method of kill matter? Is it the scope?
I can’t believe you guys are going to spend your whole summer rehashing this whole thing again and again. Wow!!!
With the exception of a couple here I’ve lost about all respect for the others.
Sooo...... who has a scoped crossbow in their family for those with no medical reason to use one? Please come out of the box blind (closet).
What decade did you stop being relevant, Missouri?
LOL at that. The doom and gloom is so nauseating but he spews it on many boards on Bowsite. Misery needs company and he gets no love here because too many people still enjoy bowhunting. I'm thinking some compound hunter stepped on his dick once and he's still holding a grudge.
"Some people are able to have big boy conversations and state opinions allowing others to the same and others just sling insults." Then a few days later this was posted, "I'm thinking some compound hunter stepped on his dick once and he's still holding a grudge." Not sure how to reconcile this?
There should just be a thread for fellas to go on when they are feeling punchy missiouri seems dead set on continuing to stir the pot with these crossbow threads, let's just let him fade into obscurity and get back to whats important
Well Mike, what I said was not an insult. No name calling in there at all. I'm trying to come up with some potential reasons why Missouri is always so miserable and completely negative about everything hunting related. I was simply speculating. There has to be a good reason - right?
No, it is not an insult, but it is derogatory, at least to me. Having an idiot like Jake respond to it only marginalizes it even more, though that is none of your doing. I certainly have been one to use less than stellar comments so not throwing stones, just wondering. And, I agree that he repeats himself fairly often but I also agree with his point. So, is it that terrible that he continues to say it? I sometimes think that by allowing another perspective to be forwarded without rebuttal leads to a belief that most are in agreement when they keep silent. In extreme cases I call that apathy.
It is important to remind the new viewers here what real bowhunting is, just in case they care to try it. I heard Dicks is no longer selling guns, they must have been stepped on too.
CaptMike your right. But it gets old when these wanna be archers leave come back different name then play the dum card.
