HOUSE BILL 294
Contributors to this thread:West Virginia
From: hoppies56
11-Feb-19
I dont know much about this bill , but looks as if want to change how doe tags are purchased, and have a choice tag and 2 buck limit with AR ,does anyone have any knowledge on this HB 2984
From: JayD
11-Feb-19
JayD's Link
From: hoppies56
11-Feb-19
Jayd , i have read House 2984 just not quite sure i understand what i am reading. Looking for someone to maybe explain a little better. to this old country boy, Thanks to anyone who can help me out in understanding this mess as i see it.
From: Babysaph
11-Feb-19
I agree. Heck with that. Lol. All I know is there will not be a reduction in the buck kill.,
From: JayD
11-Feb-19
Just a few highlites of it: base hunting license would be for one antlered deer of any size and 3 antlerless deer.
It does away with extra bow tags, muzzleloader tags and antlerless tags but makes the RG and RGG stamp an any weapon stamp that will sell for $40 resident and $100 NR. It can be use for an extra buck with APR's. 3 points on one side if I recall correctly.
Only one buck per weapon. So you could not kill 2 bucks with either your bow or gun even though it is considered a 2 buck limit.
More in this - trying to read thru it now. They will try to tell you there is no price increase but there is. Its sort of like Obamacare - requiring you to buy certain products whether you want it or not. Such as 3 antlerless deer in the base licenses which covers the cost of the repealed Class N tags.
I could be wrong on some of this but I need to take a break from reading thru it for now. From my understanding more to come on this tomorrow in the papers and quite possibly a senate bill as well to reduce the buck limit.
From: hoppies56
12-Feb-19
So i did understand some of it , that would be forcing a hunter to buy 3 doe tag ? What i dont need 3 doe tags , 2 deer is all my family can eat. My county had 1 class n last year . so does that mean all counties will have 3 doe tags? I am for a lower the buck limit but not at that cost . I have XS CLASS license , ? What a mess,
From: sundaynwv
12-Feb-19
No it doeant.mean all counties have a 3 doe gun limit.
From: hoppies56
12-Feb-19
I guess i dont understand Sunday ,First they force me to buy 3 doe tags . Then if my county only has 1 doe limit , they force me to drive to another county to hunt . What ? I support a lower buck limit but this bill is not for me or any i know .
From: hoppies56
12-Feb-19
Maybe Senate Bill 586 will be a better way to lower the buck limit with out forcing hunters to buy 3 doe tags.
From: Little Bear
12-Feb-19
Why do people want legislator's dictating wildlife management? Do they have Masters degrees or PhD's in wildlife science? - No! Do those who are behind the bill? - NO! Bad idea!
From: JayD
12-Feb-19
Hoppies hold on tight there are being more and more bills submitted - new HB today just pertains to buck limit and does nothing with fees. HB 3053 I think
From: Babysaph
12-Feb-19
Well they have to pay for it. LOL. I told you guys they would not increase the buck kill without an increase in something else. So a lifetime license holder will get a reduction since he wouldn't have to buy the extra tags since the way it was explained are included in the base license. Saves me a lil bit of money. This is going to get real. LOL. Litttle Bear. I think the lawmakers make the laws as was once explained to me. Another bad idea. Cha Ching.
From: hoppies56
12-Feb-19
Little Bear, I really dont like the legislators getting involved either. However that may be only way we get a lower buck limit in WV ,
From: hoppies56
12-Feb-19
Jay d house bill 3053, Gets right to the Point { PUN INTENDED } as long as you know what a Scorable point is.
From: M.P.
12-Feb-19
I have seen commissioners without masters or PhD's in wildlife management shoot down the ideas of the biologists also. I have seen you Ed get behind legislation for issues like the Sunday hunting. What about the biologists in Ohio,Kentucky and Pennsylvania who said it needed to be done and it worked.? A biologist on the Wvba board even says 1 buck will work . Some believe only what and who they want while ignoring others . If we want in the state what the 4 counties have then sacrifices will have to be made in how many bucks are allowed on a license.
From: Babysaph
12-Feb-19
decrease the buck kill. I will just wait until it is all said and done and then read it on here. Too complicated which is how they like it.
From: Babysaph
12-Feb-19
you remember me telling you guys that the lower limit would have to come at a cost. They will actually make more money now because as it was explained on here not many people buy that 3rd tag. They are creative I will give them that. Once they get this going it won't be long until they will add a 3rd buck again and hunters will be required to pay extra for that. They are not dumb.
From: JayD
12-Feb-19
LB you are absolutely correct.
JR you are correct in saying it is going to get real. Another bill to bring in rifle season (2 days earlier) on Saturday has been proposed by some of these same legislators - cutting more and more of bow season.
JR it wasn't that they did not sell many of the rb or rg tags it was that they sold them but not many were used! Hard for some on here to understand that it is called hunting for a reason and not shooting!
From: Babysaph
12-Feb-19
But if they were selling them why are they doing this. As far as rifle season. More time to hunt less bucks. Yea the season is getting shorter but we got more time on the front end and the heritage season. So we can't complain except we lose a few days of the rut
From: hoppies56
12-Feb-19
Gun season start couple days early wont bother me Most seasons my buck tag is filled or i have taken doe or 2 with a bow.
From: JayD
12-Feb-19
They (I assume you me DNR) are not doing this - the legislators are doing this.
My last two bucks have been shot on the Saturday and Sunday before each of the those year's gun season came in. Talk about more bucks being killed - adding two additional days of buck gun season to the mix! Plus - starting something that could go haywire by saying " Hey for a price you can bring gun season in earlier for those of you who can afford to pay!"
Yep so great to let our legislators to dictate wildlife management!
From: hoppies56
12-Feb-19
Jay d, You can still Bowhunt those 2 days if you want . doesnt say you cant. or pay 20 dollars to use a rifle , Right
From: M.P.
12-Feb-19
If the director and commissioners would back this would it be ok then ?
From: Babysaph
12-Feb-19
I mean the legislature. they call the shots.
From: Babysaph
12-Feb-19
It won't effect me I bowhunt all the time anyway. I actually now feel that if I can't kill a couple scrub deer from the end of Sept till the end of Dec and the added Heritage season I might as well give up. I really think now we are going to see the license and fees go way up. Just need more money. I get that.
From: Babysaph
12-Feb-19
I am so glad I bought my lifetime license years ago.
From: hoppies56
13-Feb-19
This bills introduced by house and senate are intended to put pressure on DNR and Natural Resources Comm to make changes. Chris Lawrence Outdoor writer for wv metro news has a good article about proposed changes and the bills dealing with changes.
From: JayD
13-Feb-19
Yes from what I read doesn’t even look like the sponsor of the bill is even going to table it. Is that what you read hoppies?
From: hoppies56
13-Feb-19
Jayd ,That is the way i took it . I guess we shall see where this goes from here . It appears as if Director McDaniel would like Natural Res Comm and DNR address it as well but he didnt go so far as saying he was for or against . DNR and commission meet for meeting Feb 24 2019, Should be very interesting meeting .
From: Babysaph
13-Feb-19
Well why would they want to put pressure on the DNR? They don't make the laws. The legislature does. I don't understand that.
From: hoppies56
13-Feb-19
Babysaph , Dnr AND NATURAL RES COMM, raise and lower doe tags every year , so they can do that with buck deer also . However i dont think dnr and nrc could set the price on what license fees are ,that would have to be done else where .
From: Babysaph
13-Feb-19
Ok. confusing on who does what. sounds like the legislature does some things and the DNR does others. Am I to take from this that the legislators want the DNR to raise fees?
From: sundaynwv
13-Feb-19
3 does on base license under this proposal. Biologist still set county doe limits. Max of does that can be taken with rifle.
From: hoppies56
13-Feb-19
Sundaynwv , Dnr and Natural Resources can lower buck limits just as they change antlerless deer limits . But they have chosen not lower buck limits . Now to bill 2984 . I am for a lower buck limit but not at the cost of 66 dollars and having 3 doe tags forced one me . when i live in a county that had 1 class n tag last year. I have class xs license as i am sure many hunters over the age of 65 do also. bill 2984 would repeal those class xs licenses and force me and others 65 and older to buy new license at cost of 66. dollars. IF bill 2984 would become rule, and dnr would need to lower doe limits in more counties or even state wide , What happens then ? Would a hunter still pay 66 dollars ?
From: hoppies56
13-Feb-19
Just my thoughts, What happens if HB 2984 becomes law , i live in a county with 1 doe tag . what do I and all the other licensed hunters in my county do with 2 extra tags . Do we all drive to another county to use our tags . There were 23 counties or parts of, this past year that had a 1 class n season limit,. Where would all those hunters go to fill 2 extra tags they were forced to buy for 66 dollars ? What happens after couple years when every license hunter in state has 3 doe tags?
From: Little Bear
14-Feb-19
Hoppie, you're a reasonable man that can understand HB2984 is terrible. In my opinion, any bill that ties the hands of the DNR is terrible. That is why the current system works. Biologists make the recommendations and aside from very few or minor adjustments the Commission trusts the professionals to do their job. The fact that 65% of licensed hunters surveyed and 70% of the landowners surveyed stated they were satisfied with deer management in WV. That's a pretty good majority.
From: hoppies56
14-Feb-19
Little Bear , yes i do think HB 2984 is terrible . However i do support lowering the buck limit . I do not know where your survey results came from, but i am sure you have a reliable source. Many hunters are limiting bucks taken in their hunting areas either by limit or age and are having good results. i just think it is time for DNR and Natural Resources Comm to make a change or have the state legislature do it for them . Legislators are getting pressure from hunters to make change , but from what i read and have been told they would rather DNR AND NRC do it. I just think a better way can be found other than HB 2984
From: JayD
14-Feb-19
Hoppies - I cannot tell you this is for certain because I have not witness it myself but I was told by one of the legislators that they are getting 1000’s of emails and calls that are against any of these changes and very few in support. So I tend to believe the numbers LB has stated. There are certain people who think they cannot trust our DNR and any of the info they put out - got several messages yesterday from some of those people. I would ask you to go to one of the regional meetings coming up here in March and talk with some of the DNR guys and you tell me if they are the demons and decievers that some make them out to be. I think you will find out that they are pretty good guys who work hard to make WV better!
From: hoppies56
14-Feb-19
JAYD I have been to couple of those meeting in the past. Only to be talked down to and belittled By some of good guys you speak of . However Myself along with some others are planing to go to meeting Feb 24 in South Charleston. They are getting emails that want change also .Many are like myself in wanting a lower buck limit and think there is a better way than HB 2984 . If HB 2984 is only way to get a lower buck limit then i will accept that. I practice limits on land i hunt and have seen the results , Jayd i will ask you this do you practice any type of buck management where you hunt ,? Have you seen any results ?
From: M.P.
14-Feb-19
Actually Ed ,54.81% licensed hunters wanted 2 bucks or less and 45.19% were for 3 bucks or more.
Landowners were 45.75% for 2 bucks or less while 54.24% were for 3 bucks or more.
Even the wvba members poll showed more than 50% want less than 3 bucks If the dnr wants to change to one of these bills will you support it?
From: JayD
14-Feb-19
Hey MP so if the poll were to ask - how many hunters wanted a one buck limit or a 3 buck limit instead of including the 2 buck limit - think some of those who voted for two would have picked 3 instead? Now if it were 2 buck limit for the year but only one per weapon as this crappy bill does ( must commend you guys in a sneaky way of making this still a one buck limit for a lot guys) vs a 3 buck limit - wonder what the results would have been?
Make it a sensible poll and put the choices (explained fully) against each other and lets see the results!
For a group that has in your purpose that there will be no degrading allowed of other hunters or the WVDNR - well have you seen what some of you accuse our DNR guys of doing? Umm should I post the definition of what degrading is? LOL
From: M.P.
14-Feb-19
I do not know what the poll results would be and I surely didnt write that one .
We boot people and remove threads all the time for being disrespectful. Of course you know that .
From: JayD
14-Feb-19
Would be nice to maybe know how those questions would go though don't you think?
LOL your meaning of disrespectful and mine are totally different! Do you have one thread on your page right now that has not degrading the DNR let alone other hunters? You don't have to answer - I know that answer.
From: Babysaph
14-Feb-19
Just be glad you can go to other counties to hunt the 3 does. They could just raise the license without giving us 3 does
From: Babysaph
14-Feb-19
And I’ve said before just like Little Bear just said that I thought that maybe most hunters were satisfied with the current deer management
From: Babysaph
14-Feb-19
And I’ve said before just like Little Bear just said that I thought that maybe most hunters were satisfied with the current deer management
From: Babysaph
14-Feb-19
Legislators may be getting pressure but like Little Bear said I’d say that the majority likes the 3 bucks
From: Babysaph
14-Feb-19
MP where did you get those figures? I’d say they missed a few hunters. I was never polled. Btw. I’d like to see a lower limit but I’ve alwsys said it won’t happen without money coming in from elsewhere.
From: Babysaph
14-Feb-19
And if you only Bowhunt like I do you can substitute a bow for gun and still kill 2 bucks. Unless they change that too like Iowa where you can’t substitute a bow for a gun.
From: hoppies56
14-Feb-19
HB 2984 , A hunter may only harvest and check one antler deer with archery , one antler deer with modern firearm which would include modern in line muzzle loader SO there would be no substituting bow for firearm, the way i read it
From: Babysaph
14-Feb-19
Well I'm ok with that. I'll just shoot the does like I normally do. I think they will have to say as they do now whether a bow can oe can not be substituted for a gun
From: hoppies56
14-Feb-19
Babysaph , They would need to change the way the bill is written. with that said, I dont think these bills will ever come up for a vote.
From: Babysaph
14-Feb-19
Much to do over nothing.
From: Little Bear
15-Feb-19
If we are going to post numbers, let's be clear and not confuse the issue by combining results of questions in an attempt to show an attitude of wanting change... Of licensed hunters surveyed only 14.9% wanted a one buck limit 39.9% wanted a two buck limit and 40.6% wanted to keep 3 buck limit (not sure how you could get any closer results showing an even split of two vs. three). Of landowners (non-licensed hunters) surveyed only 12.3% wanted one buck 33.5% wanted two buck and 46.6% wanted to keep 3 buck limit. Note: I omitted those wanting 4 buck limit, although there are some who want that also. If one really needs to combine the results of two bucks or less vs. three bucks or more, to make a case, then there was a little over 100 respondents in total in favor of two bucks or less vs three bucks or more; statistically insignificant just like the .01% of all hunters that kill 3 bucks now. For me, this is not about 2 vs. 3 – this is about using legislation or the threat of legislation to get DNR to change the buck limit. IF (all caps) the biologists and DNR made a recommendation for a lower limit I personally would not object, IF it were based on science and not someone holding legislation over their heads as a means to an end. But I've also read the whitepaper and the data seems clear there is no biological need OR benefit to lowering the limit.
From: Babysaph
15-Feb-19
Well that all makes sense. Thanks for posting that. It falls right in line with what I have been saying since all this talk started.,most hunters simply donr want a reduction in the buck limit. The only benefit would be bigger bucks maybe but as you can see by the numbers our state simply just doesn't want that. I've given up on it. Just let it alone.
From: sundaynwv
15-Feb-19
The white paper. Lol. That white paper relied heavily on cutting out the class N stamp.
And yes, both one and 2ltwo buck preferences are lower limits than three.
From: JayD
15-Feb-19
Thanks for posting LB!
What would have been interesting was to put each limit up against just one other choice. As in 1 buck vs 3 bucks- would have been interesting to see which way the 2 buck limit voters would have went. JR there is no research that proves a lower buck limit would mean larger bucks. It’s only theory that some guys would pass on small bucks to hold out for a bigger one. There is research that shows APR’s have tended to increase the number of mature bucks - but you have quite a few hunters who think you are limiting their choice to shoot a small buck under that plan.
From: hoppies56
16-Feb-19
Little bear , W here do you obtain the numbers you post , you never seem to tell your source of information.
From: hoppies56
16-Feb-19
WV Natural Resources Commission will be having a meeting Feb 24 2019 @ 1 00pm it will be held a DNR Headquarters , in South Charleston . I am sure buck limits we be up for discussion. DNR Steve McDaniel would like the commission to take a serious look at bag limits .
From: Little Bear
16-Feb-19
Hoppies, my source is no secret. I request the information from DNR. Despite being swamped during legislative session they are willing to provide information. This is information they have presented in public meetings. Anyone can request it and it doesn't require a FOIA. Out of respect for their time, I attempt to keep my requests to a minimum.
From: hoppies56
16-Feb-19
Ok thanks, Little Bear,
From: Jack Whitmrie jr
16-Feb-19
When you have people in place making decisions for poloitical reasons ..................
From: Babysaph
16-Feb-19
JayD you are right . If as you say that there is no one killing 3 bucks then you are right. Our state is different. However in most circumstances killing less bucks would mean more older deer. Why would any hunter vote to reduce from 3-2 bucks if that vote would not result in bigger deer? And why would the state want to do that? It would mean less money and would serve no benefit. It will never happen like I have been saying.
From: Babysaph
16-Feb-19
And APR's would work. I you had to say kill 6 points or better in order to kill a buck then yes that would result in more deer. You have to understand that in our state there is big pressure to kill a buck . Any buck. So hunters won't like that idea either. I'd like APR's.6 points or better
From: Babysaph
16-Feb-19
Just mention 6 points or better. That will go over like a turd in the punch bowl. Lol
From: hoppies56
16-Feb-19
Bill 2984, states , AR on second buck shall have 3 score able points on a side excluding brow tine. Much like Pennsylvania
From: Babysaph
16-Feb-19
And that will not be well received either although I like it.,
From: hoppies56
16-Feb-19
As much as i would like to see a lower buck limit. It all about money. and until a reasonable way is found to offset cost of losing that 3 buck tag , that no one uses but still buys it will never happen ..
From: Babysaph
16-Feb-19
Agreed.
From: Babysaph
16-Feb-19
Agreed. Think about it . How can the DNR lose? People are buying extra tags and are not using them.
From: Little Bear
16-Feb-19
Little Bear's Link
From: JayD
17-Feb-19
JayD's Link
From: hoppies56
17-Feb-19
Again i ask and i cant seem to get any answers. How many on here practice buck management on their on land or hunting area ? Have you seen any results.
From: JayD
17-Feb-19
Sorry Hoppies, but I have seen many people answer that question and most have been pretty darn good answers in my opinion. My questions to you are why do you think buck management needs to be dictated to us by of all people - legislators? And a question I have asked many times - why do you think lowering buck limits is the only way for better buck management when there is no research to back it up? There is research out there that supports APR’s help to promote more mature bucks but none for lowering the limit.
From: Babysaph
17-Feb-19
I practice it and have seen some results., but that is about all we can do since we wont have a reduction of the buck numbers or AR's
From: Babysaph
17-Feb-19
Nice article Little Bear. We don't need legislators making the decisions but havnt they been doing that in WV for a whole? I have 3 days left to work and then I'll be completely retired. I'm going to hunt and fish and I'm not going to let these continued disagreements get me down. Our deer herd is managed for money. Plain and simple.,I am for an increase in licenses fees.,our conservation officers need it.
From: Rutbuster
17-Feb-19
I practice Buck management on my place and have seen good results. The results would be much better in my opinion if there were a few guidelines set by the state. JMO.
