Hunting Arrow Weight
Massachusetts
Contributors to this thread:
Dale Rheaume's Link
Planning my new hunting arrow setup (5mm FMJ 340 spine) for my new Bowtech SR6 60lb DW. The linked article by QDMA places greater emphasis on momentum over kinetic energy and speed. Are you guys going with the momentum argument for heavy arrow over speed? It seems to make sense to me, but looking for some confirmation. With my 60lb DW, the author suggests 8 grains per pound of DW. This formula suggests my arrow weight should be 480 grains...heavy! I'm not planning to hunt anything but whitetails with the closer shots we are accustomed to in the eastern woods/swamps of Massachusetts. What is your experience on this topic, and what is your preferred arrow weight for your setup in our local hunting habitat?
My arrows pretty much the same as the authors, around 525 gr..dead is dead with a well placed shot
I shoots Easton Axis 340's at 28.5" fletched with 4" gateway feathers with 100 grain NAP Spitfire Maxx broadheads. I've never actually weighed them, but i'm assuming all in i'm around 400 grains. I shoot a Mathews Halon at 29" and 70lb. I have actually been thinking about either going to the 300 axis or fmj's or adding the weighted inserts based on all I read. I have not had any issues with passthroughs, etc. out of my setup, but keep reading the same as Dale... to go heavier...
I always thought I shoot arrows which are "blending" KE and M... But as time has gone on, I'm realizing i'm shooting arrows which slightly bias KE over M. I shoot a single pin, and just gap things based on experience with the set up. My arrows are 410grns total (Axis with some sort of mech head @ 100grns and nocktournals), just at 91ft/lb/KE and I forget what the actual M number is. I mostly get pass throughs shooting 1.5-2.3" mech heads with this set up.
Having said that, when I get a new bow at some point (getting itchy) I am thinking of going to FMJ's to add some weight, so Ill gain a bit of M there.
One thing I will say, I used to go as light as possible trying to get speed and help with yardage estimate mistakes. Then talking to Brett, at Archery Plus in spencer when he was setting up my wives bow, he mentioned a great experiment. Shooting a lighter arrow, he noticed great speed at the bow, but when he shot through the chrono 30yds down range, there was a much greater loss in speed compared to the heavier arrow.
NOTE: after deciding to play with math, I used the KE/M calculator on the realtree website.
For example, the light arrow was doing say 290 2 yds in front of the bow, but 250 at 30 yds (I dont recall actual numbers any more, just that it was significant, so take this as an estimate). Heavy arrows may have only done 278 at 2yds, but at 30 were still going 268.
In other words, if the energy is there to launch the heavy arrow, it takes more to slow it down. Thus it actually carries MORE energy all the way to the target.
Think of the math. If we do the KE for a 380grn arrow at 290 the KE is 70~ and momentum .49. If you do the same 380grn arrow at 250 you go to KE of 53~ and momentum of .42
If you are shooting a 430grn arrow at 278 you are doing 73~ for KE and .53~ momentum... Now drop that to say 265fps for the 430grn arrow at 30 yds, you have 67 KE and .51~ for momentum.
So the KE is pretty close on those set ups to start, but due to the heavier arrow losing less of it's energy down range, it carries more KE and M into the target.
That realization for me, I'd never considered it... It made me want to err to the middle more for sure... and if I went trad, I think I'd err to the heaviest arrow I could shoot well.
Maybe try heavy vs. Light in a good broadhead target. You will see a penitration difference. Broadhead choice and bow speed are both variables. Im at 486.4 gold tip hunter 300, 125 exodus, 70 lb mission. If weight stacks the odds at practical distances, then for me thats the right choice.
Thanks guys much appreciated. I’m looking at adding Easton’s brass insert at 75 grains with 100 grain mechanical...total point weight of 175. Just having trouble with the Easton spine charts, and all the variables for brace height (6in), arrow length (27.5in), point weight (175) and ATA/IBO bow speed (352fps). Granted I don’t know my exact bow speed as I’m using comfort setting and shorter 28in draw, so she’s much slower. Should I get her on the chrono at the bow shop? It seems I could go either way for 300 or 340 spine. The local archery shop says to go 340, and doesn’t think 300 will fly right. He has a great reputation, but I prefer to be educated in how the determination is made. I might be over thinking this, but figured I’d put it out for discussion.
I just got my 200gr inserts in and built up 3, 31 1/2", 300 spine Bloodsport FPS Hunters. With 125 grain G5 Montec points I'm looking at a total weight of around 625 grains. Went out to start nock tuning this morning but its freakin freezing so only got a dozen shots in but they definitely hit harder than my standard 525gr. I'm going to wait til Sunday or Monday when it warms up a bit to finish up. Now, for Northeast Whitetails is that overkill? Probably. But it comes down to the old 9mm vs. .45 argument. I like 9mm because theres more of them in the magazine (in normal states of course). But punch does help and I hope I'm only going to be shooting 1 arrow and not 17! I watch a guy on youtube who goes by Ranch Fairy and while he's a couple short of a 6 pack his science is pretty good. A heavier arrow will penetrate better and having a high FOC will mean your arrows fly better. With the average shot up here being, I think, 18 yards, we don't need such high arrow speeds to cover a 60 or 70 yard shot. Anyway. I am a noob at bowhunting but have been shooting most of my life and have a minor understanding of ballistics. If I have a poor shot but can penetrate a scapula rather than have the deer take longer to die from a minor vs. major bleed I'm all for it. Please let me know any advice, comments and criticism from all y'all. Cheers.
I shoot heavy arrows, somewhere around 500 grains all in. Easton FMJ injexions (4mm). Since switching to heavy arrows I have not had pass through issues like in the past. Im not shooting anything over 40 yards and its almost always under 30 so I really dont care about speed.
Wow, what a revelation. This debate/study has been going on for eons. Golf ball vs ping-pong ball, basketball vs bowling ball, which one is harder to stop or penetrate. The bow marketers want you to believe speed is the determining factor of bowhunting success. I have learned many years ago (thru trial and error) that a heavy arrow, sharp broadhead is the best combo for hunting success. My compound bows I used arrows in the 8gpp of bow weight and my traditional bows arrows I used 10-12gpp of bow weight. I currently use a 45# recurve bow sporting a blazing speed of 170fps with a 480-500 grain arrow. This combo has accounted for several pass thru kills up to 25 yards. Momentum kills.
I would focus on getting your arrow setup and tuned and whatever the weight is it is. For deer 300 and up grains are fine. I think mine are in the 360-375 range.
I'm solidly in the heavy arrow, EFOC, cut on contact solid head camp. especially shooting trad like I do.
This thread got me really thinking about what I shoot for an arrow weight. Never really thought of it before because I very rarely don’t get the deer I am after ( last year was an exception ). Most drop within eyesight or hearing distance. So I decided to go and weight my current set up I shoot
Gold Tip kinetic pierce platinum 400 - 7.6 GPI
28.5” draw @ 63 lbs
Spitfire maxx 100 g head
Comes out to 385 per arrow. This is with the nokturnal nock and shrink fletching. Just weighed it in a digital scale I have at home.
I go with spikes vote. These are deer and as long as you have a quality arrow that won’t blow up on a deer everything should be ok. Stay away from the cheap speed arrows they sell at dicks or bass pro. Shot placement is everything on a deer the worst place to hit a deer with a cheap arrow is the shoulder blade. Please don’t ask how I know :(
I switched to a heavy arrow last year and I doubt I'll ever chase speed again. I've got a 564 grain carbon express pile driver, with 175 grain single bevel grizzly Stik upfront and a 25 grain brass insert. That gets me to just about 20% foc. I'm shooting that with a 60#, 28" draw. I've mentioned this here before, but I hit a bear smack dab in the middle of the shoulder blade with that arrow last September. It exploded the shoulder blade, passed through and buried in the ground behind him. I shoot a single pin and set it at the 22 yard marker. Arrows hit within a couple inches of one another from 5-25 yards. It does start to drop significantly out to 30 and beyond, but 30 is probably the max distance I would ever shoot at an animal.
I cant add much to this thread, except to say you came to the right place, it still amazes me the amount of knowledge on this forum! I shoot 5mm fmj 340s and I get great penetration with them. I dont use inserts, although I've toyed with the idea in the past. I think for me it came down to the old adage, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. My arrow weight is right around 420 grain. Fmj's are definitely a great hunting arrow.
X2 on staying away from cheap speed arrows. I went that route one time and had one explode when I released on a deer got a second shot and spined the deer and it broke. When I did the finishing shot that arrow broke on impact as well. These were Predator arrows. Joe, that is a beast set up!
Will's Link
Eastie! What up bro! We should do coffee some time now that you are local and settling in :)
Dale, I'd only worry about chronoing things if you want to really get into the numbers. I checked google after typing this all out, and this article touches on some of what I noted, but with better numbers - may also show I'm not all there on a few issues... consider reading to calibrate my post and your decisions. http://www.bowhuntingmag.com/editorial/3-rules-of-thumb-to-follow-for-consistent-arrow-speed/310532#
Functionally, the speed 352 off the shelf is for 30" 70#. So roughly speaking your losing 10fps/inch if I recall and I dont remember how much weight you noted... So you are at best 332, and if you are sub 70 then it's less... And that speed is for a pretty light arrow, I forget now if it's 350grns total or so... but generally it's close to that. I'm shaky, I havent nerded out on this in a long time. Point blank, a good route, would be to look for Shawn on the MA forum, he pops up on some hunting and most tuning threads, and the guy is like frigging Gandolf with this stuff. Consider PM'ing him.
Long story short... You are going really heavy up front, so the "functional" spine is going to flex more on the arrow you choose. Thus a stiffer shaft may flex the way a less stiff shaft would with say, a 100grn head only up front. Does the shop guy know you are thinking of going to 175? It may be, that at your arrow length and draw weight the stiffness of a 340 will be plenty! That may be why the shop is suggesting 340. (shorter, functionally increases stiffness)
My mentality here, would be to see If I could buy a couple 300's and a couple 340's and play with each set up as you plan to use them. What fly's better? There's your answer. It will take a few extra bucks to buy the arrows, but I bet it gives you the BEST answer for your set up, and an answer you can carry into the woods with a LOT of confidence.
Drtfrmabove, your 385g arrow from 63# equals 6.11 grains per pound of bow weight. That's on the ultra light side. A heaver arrow will quite the bow, tune better, have more pass-thrus, (with the right broadhead) be more durable and won't blow up if it hits a twig. It might be a tad slower, but use your rangefinder and you will be fine.
Thanks fisher. But I am not worried about it. 2 of the last 3 deer I have shot have been passthroughs. Only one that wasn’t was the shoulder hit deer but I know I blew through the blade and buried the shaft deep in him. High high so the blood was sparse at best chest cavity probably filled up with blood and died from suffocation. The arrows I shoot have the insert in the front and a shock collar also. Damn durable arrows. Haven’t blown one up yet and have shot through 2x4’s. If I was shooting a less durable arrow then I would consider a different weight.
Thanks for the link Will! That’s exactly what I was looking for. Based on the rules of thumb, I’d be in the theoretical vicinity of 285fps or a little less (IBO352:60DW:28DL:485GR). The 485GR puts me right at 8gpp for plenty of knock down pass through power I can be confident with. Good suggestion to try both spines then decide.
It warmed up. Bare shaft tuned at 20.
450 grains (125 grain thunderhead)
Shrek - I've seen folks talk of that, but never did it. Iv'e just done paper, walk back, BH tune... Do you piggy back bare shaft on other strategies? How does it compare to other strategies in your experience?
Shrek. Impressive!!!! I don’t even think I can group that good with vanes on
I think i am probably too light on my arrows currently. BUT, i don't have a problem with pass throughs, etc. I shoot 70lb and my arrows weigh approx. 400 gr. all in. I don't have any issues at all. I am thinking of going to either 1. a heavier spined arrow (going from Easton Axis 340s to 300s), or 2. putting the weighted brass inserts in my next set of 340's. I may go to FMJ's next when I get my next batch of arrows as well.
Ungie, you sound about like you are shooting the same set up as me. Same arrows and questions at least... I'm erring towards going heavier on my next batch, if for no other reason than helping get through tough sections of deer. I've not had a problem with that, but if I make a positive change with minimal change in accuracy or dealing with gapping the aim point like I do, then that seems like a win.
This is the first time I have ever done this. I was surprised how easy it really is. Got the vanes and broadheads on and they shoot well. I paper tuned first but out at 20+ yards things are a bit different. My understanding is Bare shaft is more about nock tuning and arrow flight than the rest set up. Like I said before I'm a complete noob when it comes to bowhunting but I'm trying to give myself the best possible chance.
Exactly Will. I have shot this set up for 3 seasons, going on 4. I have killed 9 deer with this setup, so I can't complain about it!
I just made the switch to Easton FMJ 340s. My bow has never shot better or more quiet. This added about 50 grains to my arrow. The bow is so much more quiet now and my arrow flight is amazing. I wish I had done this sooner.
Yeah, fmj's are definitely awesome! Hidden benefit, they pull out of 3D targets much easier than your standard arrow. I still find myself contemplating brass inserts to get a bit more foc and beef up the weight. Does anyone have any experience with this?
I love my heavy arrows, not fmj's, but piledrivers. My cheapo bow is dead quiet with the added weight.
Eastie, I have 25 grain brass weights screwed in behind my standard inserts. I had to add a little glue to the threading as they kept unscrewing behind the insert and rattling inside the arrow. I've noticed increased accuracy with the higher foc.
Eastie I shoot the gold tip kinetic pierce platinum 400 with the insert and brass collar up front. Micro diameter arrow with hammer strength. I don’t know much about arrows and all the technical crap but I can tell you that these arrows don’t break easy. The added weight of the insert and the shock collar make these deadly. If you are ever down my way come take them for a test drive on my target in the backyard. If I remember right ( which I usually don’t ) we should be pretty close to draw length. I am at 28.5”. If that is close I don’t mind sending you a couple in the mail if you can’t make it down here. The inserts and collar make a big difference compared to lighter foc arrows
I can't wait to blow one of these FMJs through a deer's ribs!
They are great arrows, I shoot the 340's also, no problem through ribs and then halfway into the ground too! Lol
Shawn, your exactly right, same draw length. If I'm ever down your way I'll definitely swing by. Thanks for the input guys, I'll be tinkering with arrows over the summer for sure.