2. When asked for why he was against it, he said because it couldn't be done and that there was to much money to be lost. When alternative ideas were presented on how to off set the loses and actually have a surplus I.E. $5-10 across the board license fee or a $5 Lifetime license /landowner tag, he played both sides, 1st saying leave it to the commissioners , then when presented with facts, said it would have to go thru the legislature.....
3. He kept saying to let the biologists make the decisions not the legislatures , but when the biologists there said that decreasing the buck limit and killing more does was what was needed....He then tried to change the subject ( Both biologists said, they need more does than bucks killed, but they didn't want to get into the political side of how to do that,like an either sex tag included on a base license). They both just kept saying we need more does killed than bucks.
4. When asked why, if the biologists say they need more does than bucks, why include 3 buck tags in the base license? why not throw in a doe tag or either sex tag? He again stated that that had to be done thru legislation , not the Commissioners. When pressed for how it went from 5 to 3, he said it was before his time and didn't know.
And here is the kicker, when i asked him how he could be for a 3 buck limit , coming from a 1 buck area, he said that he had big plans for the bow only counties, that he was trying to increase the buck limits and he hinted at more, gun Season???? I dont know, but he did say he was in for more buck tags issues in those counties and was trying to get it passed. When i quizzed him on the loss of resident and NR tourism not going down there, he said it wouldn't affect it that much, as that really wasn't a destination that NR went to to hunt , that they liked to fill their tags in other counties ( which i agreed with him on, they come over, fill every tag they have and then hunt mature deer at home,which he said was not true, taking valuable resources away from resident hunters). He also said that the 5K WV hunters who went to Ohio to hunt, that WV didn't really miss those hunters , that that represented less than 1% of hunter in WV....SMH.
He also stated while talking about the 4 managed counties, DID NOT produce the most mature bucks killed, but that Lincoln-Boone and Jackson Co did,,,,,,,,,,True Story,
Guys and gals, he basically didn't want to talk to the people at the deer section at the meeting, and only did so once he was forced to do so. Once he was presented with FACTS, he either flipped flopped on answers , like one from Commissioners doing the job , then saying no , in fact they couldn't , that it had to go thru the legislature....or just made up stuff as went along, with his keys in his hands trying to leave and not talk to us. I am sure there is more i will add,as i meant to put this out that night while it was fresh in my mind, hopefully what i typed above made sense, I am at work and trying to type and talk on the phone....LOL......If it doesn't,let me know or if you have questions, let me know.............There were at any give time, 4 of us or more talking to him, so there's several people who heard what all he said..
I have also never attempted to intimidate fellow Commissioners by telling them what they had to do, what groups they could or could not associate with, or give them names of specific people they couldn’t talk to. I can’t say that was never attempted on me, but I won’t be bullied like that. I will say that I would never do that to a fellow Commissioner.
There are 7 Commissioners for a reason, and that is designed that way to have 7 different opinions to come to a consensus on an issue . It wasn’t designed that way to have one person bully the others to reach an opinion.
To be blunt, commissioners need no more than one, possibly two, terms. And yes that includes Gobbler.
As soon as you spew left wing/ liberal handbook you lost me. Might as well throw "socialism" in there.
I guess if AOC can convince a few thousand misinformed people the green new deal is the bestest thing going, a short term DNR Commissioner and a handful of cronies can surely follow suit on what they think is best for every single hunter in the state of WV.
I know that people are reluctant and resistant to change, it’s human nature. But whether people agree or disagree the DNR is a business. It’s whole existence depends on selling a product. When you’re losing sales no matter what the reason, be it aging population, people moving out of state, younger people not hunting or whatever, successful businesses change the product to stabilize loss of sales and hopefully increase sales.
People say I have an agenda and to that I say yes, I do. That agenda is to increase license sales, not buck tag sales but license sales. The way to do that is by changing the product. If a public company has been losing sales for 20 years they don’t say well, let’s do the same thing next year and hope that it gets better. They say, how can we change what we’re selling to make it more attractive to our customers? Some people say the DNR can’t afford to do that but I think they can’t afford not to.
DNR parks got it figured out. They remodeled, renovated, and added new things like the zip-line at Pipestem. Their occupancy rates are on an upswing. They could have said let’s not do anything and hope people will come next year and if they used that philosophy they would have just been farther in debt the next year.
Where do we come up with the higher demand needed to replace money lost by a tag decrease? I've seen the models presented here and while I can't say any are off base or setup to create failure, I can say economic theory suggests a further decrease in demand once a fee increase is applied. Which is why there is no incentive for the DNR to do it since most of the hunters in this state are not killing two bucks. Much less three.
With no real way to ensure deer are being checked, accurately and in accordance with laws, all any further regulation will do is further hamper honest hunters who buy and hunt here, to start exploring other options, With a state like WV, no where are you far from other states, or the largest bow only area in the lower 48, that offers what the Better Buck Management crowd is suggesting as the correct answer. With little regard in my impression, to the differences that allow these other states to capitalize on the bigger deer on average that they offer.
In my opinion, based on basic economic theory, both resident and nonresident hunters that hunt WV are mostly doing so for reasons other then big bucks. So, how does managing a state that is over 80% forested, like a state that is heavily stocked with commercial agriculture offering the deer much better feed, going to draw hunters away from the more practical option of killing bigger horned and bodied deer?
Theory is all we have. But, most times the grass is not greener over yonder. It only appears that way from a distance, until you get there. Then there is a whole other host pf variables that you must deal with. What is not debatable is WV is not gong to flatten out and become heavy to agriculture. Which leads me to once again ask why then all the hoopla about trying to manage it that way with so many negatives presented for the future of license sales?
It is most certainly a difference in opinion. And, potentially a totally different understanding of cause and effect phenomenon.
I was told last summer in a meeting with DNR deer biologists that in WV with a limited few exceptions that 4.5 year old bucks should easily have 125 inch racks in the habitat that WV has. That was straight from a WV DNR deer biologists mouth in a meeting in S Chsrleston. Both Fred Richter and Tim Reed were in the meeting and can verify what was said. They are the second and third Presidents of WVBA.
As to WV parks - nice to see some new features coming into the parks - sad to see such other features such as the golf courses deteriorate. So since some seem to think our Parks have it figured out - wasn’t it just this year that a hunt was canceled in one of our Parks? Is that what we need to look forward to with the rest of WV under this kind of leadership?
As to blatant made up figures - seems to me that’s is like the pot calling the kettle black.
JayD, it seems to me that you are contradicting what Mountaineer says, if I understand it he is implying that without AG WV won’t produce big deer.
As for golf, I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know anything about golf and have no desire to learn anything about it . What I do know is that golf courses are labor intensive and expensive to keep up. From my understanding, and I might be wrong, but the expenses outweighed the income for the golf courses on some of the parks .
Are you implying Director McDaniels has not shown good leadership?
Lowering the buck limit from 3 to 2 cost the state $150,000. Its in Chris Ryan's white paper. Jayd, I'm sure you can email and ask for it or I can post it in here.
We havent had a license increase since 2005. Our sportsman package cost less than half of other states. We give away too much.
If adding a doe on a base license costs the state then don't do it.
I honestly think.most resident.nonhunters come here to hunt because they have family here or want to fill the freezer. Nonresident are not the problem.
First off - I get from what he is saying is that WV will not be the same as states with more agriculture not that it will not put out trophies. So are you seriously going to sit there and say in years following low nut production that deer will have the same amount of food sources that agricultural states will? Will the availability of food not effect the growth of the deer? I say - some years WV just won’t have the availability of food as some other states and it will effect our deer herd - but maybe things are different in your neck of the woods.
As to golf - golf can be expensive to maintain - so are you saying we get rid of the championship courses in our state parks or just not upgrade or maintain them? Our courses were deteriorating long before Director McDaniel took over - I think he is trying to do something about them but it is hard when the money isn’t there. I remember a time when the courses were in great shape and were the main attraction for several of our parks!
If you read what I wrote I said about a park not allowing a hunt. I would have never thought I would have ever heard of such a thing happening here in WV. So are you telling me that was the director’s decision - I thought it was a higher up’s decision and I think it was a terrible decision no matter who made it!
If you recall - I was not the one who implied that things were rigged by the DNR under the direction of the director - pretty sure that was you and Sunday who implied that. Oh - lets not forget the grade you gave towards our DNR as well. I still need to discuss some stuff with the director on that the next time we meet this Spring. My only concern for the director is that he has been swayed to believe that some groups are as big as they claim to be and if he should really be concerned with their opinions as much as he seems to be.
As for the grade, if you recall that was specifically about deer, not overall DNR. And as Jeff posted even the DNR biologists feel they need more does killed than bucks, but for last 10 years WV has constantly killed more bucks than does.
Hey Ed, did you have a day off from work? Maybe standing in a corner whispering behind your hand is the way some people like to communicate. But most everyone now uses a social media platform to communicate. I even heard that President Trump has a twitter account
Seriously Ed, which is better, a Commissioner that the public’s only contact with is to be able to speak to them for 3 minutes with no 2 way communication or one what communicates with them on social media? I can speak to tens of thousands of sportsmen and sportswomen with a click and they can communicate with me and ask a question and get a response, or they can float an idea and get an opinion .
Before I was a Commissioner I spoke at a lot of meetings and got no feedback. I think it’s great that McDaniels takes time at the end of the meeting to address people that spoke and people appreciate that immensely . IDK why everything should be kept some big secret? Put it out there and sir it out , let some sun shine on it and disinfect it. After all, the sportsmen and sportswomen are paying the bills.
I’ll be the first to say that good woods habitat produces more then enough minerals to grow big deer. I KNOW it. It’s my job. What I’m confused about is why you’d put much stock in something a biologist says, that contradicts what leading organizations and deer biologists country wide say about the percentage of bucks that will ever reach that antler size. At any age.
Maybe you truly weren’t. Just throwing that out there for consideration. Either way, it goes back to that difference of opinion issue. Which is ok too.
What’s more pressing to me is how are we to conclude that changing anything is required? Or even a wise decision to ponder. Given the stats we have.
Sorry, I don't understand the context of your question to me. I simply asked sportoutfitter if he thought the other six commissioners were fair and unbiased.
As for my response in Ron's thread? Nothing has changed on this end. There's a big difference between offering information/opinion and engaging in constant rhubarbs--don't you think?
About the state park hunt, can you tell me what commissioners were at the meeting working in keeping the hunt alive? The meeting was held in Kenny's home county. Was he there?
Funny how.most large deer come from poor deer habitat, according to the wvdnr.
I’m a forest ecologist. And know more about forest health then a wildlife biologists. Obviously a lot more then the guys who made that map.
Yes, I can go to nearly every ridge top or west to south slope in the coal fields and take a soil sample. And predict before I do that the ph is very acidic. And the site index is very low. Equating into poor ground.
I can also go to the north to east slopes and find soils in the 5.5-6 range on the ph scales. With site index’s in the mid 90’s. Which translates into great ground for growing browse for deer.
I can also go to most any reclaimed mine site, take soil samples and find ph’s in the 6’s. Due to the reclamation processes required by federal law. And, if you look hard enough, you’ll see that the total number of acres comprised in mountain top removal mines, in various states of mining and reclamation, are mind boggling huge in those red areas.
So, It really is a poor description to suggest the habitat is the worst in the state. For other reasons besides I just pointed out too. The biggest being the correlation most hunters mistakenly use when associating best farming practices of cultivated crops and, what’s best for deer. Uneven aged, disturbed forests are going to be high on the list of the best habitat. Not a perfect soil ph.
That’s just reality. No map needed.
Where your flawed is the notion a school teacher or a retired ER doc knows how to manage a deer herd better then a wildlife biologist. Or, impling that habitat quality correlates directly and is solely dependent on agriculture availability.
After sleeping on this overnight, I want to apologize for my post above. It wasn’t very kind of me to poke fun and as you said above, we all have a right to express our opinions. It wasn’t very Christian-like of me either so I asked God to forgive me, and I’m asking you to forgive me as well. And I decided to post this openly in case my post offended anyone else.
Now, as to my personal preference on this whole issue, I hope all Commissioners set aside personal agendas and actually listen to what the biologists have to say. It really won’t impact the way I hunt either way. However, some of the (IMO) ridiculous proposals like 1 per weapon would impact my time outdoors and I would fight tooth and nail against that. By the way, I say it is ridiculous because if the goal is to reduce the number of bucks killed why would anyone want to restrict the use of a lesser effective weapon?
Oh, and no I wasn’t on vacation yesterday, I was on a late lunch break. Due to some system issues yesterday I had to work thru my normal lunch. I usually check-in on Bowsite non-sense during my lunch break if time allows.
I too wish all Commissioners would quit letting egos and grudges get in the way of working toward a common goal of providing WV hunters what they want in a biologically sound strategy. Yes, they should listen to biologists, they are the experts. But I think they should also reach out to out of state and nationally recognized national and University biologists. In any situation it’s better to get as much input from multiple sources to help reach a truly informed opinion.
When the Governor or Legislature wants to research an issue they consult with the state experts for their opinions and they also reach out to other states that are having similar issues to see how they are dealing with a problem, and /or new ideas to address an issue. There is no such thing as too much information in forming an opinion, but there is a problem with not having enough information to form an opinion.
Anyway, thank you for the post, but as far as I’m concerned we’re good
Universal doe tags would add time afield for a bowhunter unless they are only concerned with hunting bucks.
Sunday - I agree with you - he should have been there for something that important. And again it seems the ones that were there didn’t do a very good job as well.
I thought it was the decision of the governor but a couple people on here were making it sound like it was due to an absence of a commissioner or the fault of the director.
Glad that was cleared up! And you are right I completely understand when it comes to an illness like that it will always be family first! Thanks LB for the info! Thank you for the prayers!
Jayd, once again putting words in others mouths. Quit taking every comment on Earth the direction in which you want to hear it. No one blamed Jenny Wilson or McDaniels for the hunt being cancelled. NO ONE!
It was even irrelevant to the discussiin until you pulled it out of left field.
And I specifically stated under the leadership of who made the decision - knowing it was our governor - but then gobbler threw out if I was questioning the leadership of Director McDaniel. I DID NOT bring either into it - you and gobbler did - it’s easy to see in the post what you both implied - of course I am for sure for some it will be time to erase some post!
and finally.........Why are all our surrounding states license sale and revenue increasing? We all know why, just be honest about it,,,They come here , fill every tag they can , then go home to hunt mature deer.
PS,,,,one more Wilson tall tale........The 4 bow only counties don't produce the most mature bucks.....They all come from Lincoln, Boone and Jackson....HIS WORDS as fact....Let that sink in.
There's a reason WV is dead last in everything, including falling hunting sales.....We fear change and thrive at the bottom, living/hunting.....sad, it doesn't have to be this way ,, But yet we have people who want and fight to keep it that way...see some above,..must be an "alliance" to keep us that way.
As to being dead last in everything - I was just looking at some articles from national publications that people have posted on here the past few years that shows WV has been climbing up the rankings as one of the better deer hunting states. Again I don't know why the articles have been written if things are in such a doom and gloom way?
Heck - even you stated in one of your post on here that things are better than what they were 10 years ago - 5 years ago and even better than just 2 years ago - those were your words. So just wondering where you are getting all this doom and gloom stuff from for WV?
And I am not saying we don’t need some change but are things really as bad as you say now - hard to believe you feel that way after that monster you killed last Fall.
Maybe there needs to be an Alliance here in WV to make sure the facts are stated and not the doom and gloom statements that are not backed by the numbers.
Sportoutfitter, guess since you guide in the bow only counties, you support Wilson, in increasing the limit? Iam sure that would put hunters in your cabins...Not really..you make your money off tourism, 1 buck limits help you out, but you don't want the competition from the rest of state? Is that it? You should see the positive effects a 1 buck limit offers............
But still no outrage at what Wilson said, except for the guys and gals who want lower limits......you all throw jabs at a Commissioner trying to help, but support one who makes stuff up as he goes........I guess that's the high road to take..
Change is coming....MAybe not this year, or next.......BUt sooner or later the state will figure out we are losing money........Hopefully the legislators don't have to get involved, but who knows..
BOJ, the one thing I will always be is honest. And, if you’d read my earlier post, I agree most out of state hunters come here to kill deer. So how in the world does decreasing their participation going to stop declining license sales? Your fearless ring leader, the great and equal commissioner says that’s his intent for wanting change. Do you agree that this change would increase sales? I only ask because You seem to be on board with him. So, explain please.
As far as ridiculous behavior by appointed commissioners, you should know I have a sour spot for that. Especially when they abuse their commission to promote their own agenda. With arrogant, egotistical behavior. What I’m confused about is you seem to be irritated with one while defending another for the same actions. Did he hurt your feelings? Do you suppose he is the only arrogant commissioner out there? What is it that allows you to defend commissioner Greg here, while campaigning against another for acting the same way?
I’m not trying to be a wise guy. I’m just asking honest questions.
BOJ, the one thing I will always be is honest. And, if you’d read my earlier post, I agree most out of state hunters come here to kill deer. So how in the world does decreasing their participation going to stop declining license sales? Your fearless ring leader, the great and equal commissioner says that’s his intent for wanting change. Do you agree that this change would increase sales? I only ask because You seem to be on board with him. So, explain please.
As far as ridiculous behavior by appointed commissioners, you should know I have a sour spot for that. Especially when they abuse their commission to promote their own agenda. With arrogant, egotistical behavior. What I’m confused about is you seem to be irritated with one while defending another for the same actions. Did he hurt your feelings? Do you suppose he is the only arrogant commissioner out there? What is it that allows you to defend commissioner Greg here, while campaigning against another for acting the same way?
I’m not trying to be a wise guy. I’m just asking honest questions.
