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Milton Sectional Meeting w/Wilson....Ugh
West Virginia
Contributors to this thread:
Big-Otis-Jeff 13-Mar-19
hookman 13-Mar-19
Big-Otis-Jeff 13-Mar-19
Babysaph 13-Mar-19
gobbler 14-Mar-19
hookman 14-Mar-19
Little Bear 15-Mar-19
gobbler 15-Mar-19
gobbler 15-Mar-19
Big-Otis-Jeff 16-Mar-19
M.P. 16-Mar-19
Jim Casto Jr 16-Mar-19
Big-Otis-Jeff 16-Mar-19
speedy 16-Mar-19
speedy 16-Mar-19
gobbler 16-Mar-19
Babysaph 16-Mar-19
sundaynwv 16-Mar-19
sundaynwv 16-Mar-19
Babysaph 16-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 16-Mar-19
donniehunt 17-Mar-19
Babysaph 17-Mar-19
sundaynwv 17-Mar-19
gobbler 17-Mar-19
donniehunt 17-Mar-19
gobbler 17-Mar-19
donniehunt 17-Mar-19
gobbler 17-Mar-19
Babysaph 17-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 17-Mar-19
gobbler 18-Mar-19
JayD 18-Mar-19
gobbler 18-Mar-19
Babysaph 18-Mar-19
sundaynwv 18-Mar-19
JayD 18-Mar-19
Little Bear 18-Mar-19
gobbler 18-Mar-19
Babysaph 18-Mar-19
Babysaph 18-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 18-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 18-Mar-19
Jim Casto Jr 18-Mar-19
gobbler 18-Mar-19
sundaynwv 18-Mar-19
sundaynwv 18-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 19-Mar-19
sundaynwv 19-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 19-Mar-19
Rutbuster 19-Mar-19
gobbler 19-Mar-19
Little Bear 19-Mar-19
gobbler 19-Mar-19
Babysaph 19-Mar-19
sundaynwv 19-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 19-Mar-19
JayD 20-Mar-19
Babysaph 20-Mar-19
sundaynwv 20-Mar-19
JayD 20-Mar-19
Little Bear 20-Mar-19
JayD 20-Mar-19
sundaynwv 20-Mar-19
JayD 20-Mar-19
Babysaph 20-Mar-19
Babysaph 20-Mar-19
gobbler 20-Mar-19
JayD 20-Mar-19
Big-Otis-Jeff 20-Mar-19
JayD 20-Mar-19
Babysaph 21-Mar-19
JayD 21-Mar-19
Big-Otis-Jeff 21-Mar-19
gobbler 21-Mar-19
Babysaph 21-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 21-Mar-19
WV Mountaineer 21-Mar-19
gobbler 22-Mar-19
woodstick 22-Mar-19
13-Mar-19
Here are some of the highlights of the Milton Sectional Meeting on Monday with Commissioner Wilson. 1. He is dead set against any reduction of the buck limits, even if his constituents want it. At the meeting it was 4-1 in favor, 12-3 total, with the 3 against coming in to the meeting with him ( Couple of his loyal Trophy Hunters of So WV).

2. When asked for why he was against it, he said because it couldn't be done and that there was to much money to be lost. When alternative ideas were presented on how to off set the loses and actually have a surplus I.E. $5-10 across the board license fee or a $5 Lifetime license /landowner tag, he played both sides, 1st saying leave it to the commissioners , then when presented with facts, said it would have to go thru the legislature.....

3. He kept saying to let the biologists make the decisions not the legislatures , but when the biologists there said that decreasing the buck limit and killing more does was what was needed....He then tried to change the subject ( Both biologists said, they need more does than bucks killed, but they didn't want to get into the political side of how to do that,like an either sex tag included on a base license). They both just kept saying we need more does killed than bucks.

4. When asked why, if the biologists say they need more does than bucks, why include 3 buck tags in the base license? why not throw in a doe tag or either sex tag? He again stated that that had to be done thru legislation , not the Commissioners. When pressed for how it went from 5 to 3, he said it was before his time and didn't know.

And here is the kicker, when i asked him how he could be for a 3 buck limit , coming from a 1 buck area, he said that he had big plans for the bow only counties, that he was trying to increase the buck limits and he hinted at more, gun Season???? I dont know, but he did say he was in for more buck tags issues in those counties and was trying to get it passed. When i quizzed him on the loss of resident and NR tourism not going down there, he said it wouldn't affect it that much, as that really wasn't a destination that NR went to to hunt , that they liked to fill their tags in other counties ( which i agreed with him on, they come over, fill every tag they have and then hunt mature deer at home,which he said was not true, taking valuable resources away from resident hunters). He also said that the 5K WV hunters who went to Ohio to hunt, that WV didn't really miss those hunters , that that represented less than 1% of hunter in WV....SMH.

He also stated while talking about the 4 managed counties, DID NOT produce the most mature bucks killed, but that Lincoln-Boone and Jackson Co did,,,,,,,,,,True Story,

Guys and gals, he basically didn't want to talk to the people at the deer section at the meeting, and only did so once he was forced to do so. Once he was presented with FACTS, he either flipped flopped on answers , like one from Commissioners doing the job , then saying no , in fact they couldn't , that it had to go thru the legislature....or just made up stuff as went along, with his keys in his hands trying to leave and not talk to us. I am sure there is more i will add,as i meant to put this out that night while it was fresh in my mind, hopefully what i typed above made sense, I am at work and trying to type and talk on the phone....LOL......If it doesn't,let me know or if you have questions, let me know.............There were at any give time, 4 of us or more talking to him, so there's several people who heard what all he said..

From: hookman
13-Mar-19
Seriously? Those 4 counties need to be left alone. I have never hunted in one of those counties so it don’t benefit me at all but I still like the benefit it does for the state. We cannot let changes be made in those counties.

13-Mar-19
He is more than happy to get them changed,,,,Just ask him, he will tell you.

From: Babysaph
13-Mar-19
I keep telling you guys it's all about the money.

From: gobbler
14-Mar-19
I know Jeff and have no doubt what he said was true, because I heard the same story from someone else at the meeting. I just came out of a meeting with Director McDaniels and everyone can rest assured that there has been no talk of, nor any plans to increase buck limit or have a gun season in the 4 bow only counties.

From: hookman
14-Mar-19
Help us keep the balance gobbler.

From: Little Bear
15-Mar-19

Little Bear's embedded Photo
Little Bear's embedded Photo

From: gobbler
15-Mar-19
Feel free to state your feelings Ed. We live in a free country with first amendment rights. I figure I know what you’re talking about and you are free to share it if you so desire

From: gobbler
15-Mar-19
That’s whats great about America. One can take the high road , one can take the low road , but I prefer the road where the tires meet the pavement because that’s the real one .

16-Mar-19

From: M.P.
16-Mar-19
I think Mr Wilson has cottled himself to the Wvba hall of fame.

From: Jim Casto Jr
16-Mar-19
Asking one commissioner to appear be fair and unbiased would lend one to assume you think the other commissions are fair and unbiased?

16-Mar-19
I think the all but 1-2 commissioners are truthful and honest, you may not like what they have to say, but they are straight forward. But again, dont blame the messenger, blame the one making these outrageous comments. Making up stories or fact to fit your own agenda when you are supposed to represent what your constituents want. But the above mentioned has no intentions of doing that.......He only wants to align himself with a certain group that he is friends with and hangs out with.......

From: speedy
16-Mar-19
I agree with Mr. Wilson on the buck limit.

From: speedy
16-Mar-19
I agree with Mr. Wilson on the buck limit.

From: gobbler
16-Mar-19
While some people may not agree with my opinions which is their right, I will say that I have been consistent with my opinions for well over a decade going back years before I was appointed as a Commissioner. My opinions should not have come as a surprise to anyone. While I can be sarcastic, I have never purposely lied about anything. Statements may have been made while situations were still developing or I had been told false information but they were never intentional lies.

I have also never attempted to intimidate fellow Commissioners by telling them what they had to do, what groups they could or could not associate with, or give them names of specific people they couldn’t talk to. I can’t say that was never attempted on me, but I won’t be bullied like that. I will say that I would never do that to a fellow Commissioner.

There are 7 Commissioners for a reason, and that is designed that way to have 7 different opinions to come to a consensus on an issue . It wasn’t designed that way to have one person bully the others to reach an opinion.

From: Babysaph
16-Mar-19
Do the commissioners have constituents? Weren't they appointed and not elected. There will be no reduction in buck limit or gun hunting in bow only counties IMO.

From: sundaynwv
16-Mar-19
Same guy that screamed at me during a commission meeting because he knew I was about to call out his blatant made up figures. And yes, when I called both Kentucky and Ohio they laughed and had never spoken with the man. Same guy that lied and said archery in schools would be the first to be cut even though it's funded by a federal grant and not contingent upon license sales. Same guy that called the Secretary of state on a Facebook group to see if they were a register PAC.

To be blunt, commissioners need no more than one, possibly two, terms. And yes that includes Gobbler.

From: sundaynwv
16-Mar-19

From: Babysaph
16-Mar-19
The masses are governed by a few. Lol

16-Mar-19
I see that for some, subjectivity is alive and well concerning over bearing behavior exhibited by WV Game Commissioner's.

From: donniehunt
17-Mar-19
DANG, this sight gets more interesting every day. Am I correct to say a Commissioner of the WV DNR is a member here and promotes his agenda and argues on a public forum with opponents? Isn't that straight out of the left wing/liberal playbook? I'd think the WV DNR would at best frown on this type of behavior.

From: Babysaph
17-Mar-19
Uh oh. I do kmow one of the commissioners has done some behind the back underhanded stuff. Got that from some DNR guys.

From: sundaynwv
17-Mar-19
Donniehunt,

As soon as you spew left wing/ liberal handbook you lost me. Might as well throw "socialism" in there.

From: gobbler
17-Mar-19
LOL, I’ve been called a lot of things but a left wing liberal is a new one for me. That kinda hurts :^)

From: donniehunt
17-Mar-19
no name calling by any means and I do apologize if it was taken that way. it's the technique I was referring too. a DNR Commissioner comes on here and wants everyone to know he just come out of a meeting with the DNR Director before applying his opinions on WV hunting matters. sounds like edging the bet to me or, just plain old bragging. anyway, I took some advice from WV Mountaineer on another thread and went back and done some reading so, this doesn't surprise me one bit.

I guess if AOC can convince a few thousand misinformed people the green new deal is the bestest thing going, a short term DNR Commissioner and a handful of cronies can surely follow suit on what they think is best for every single hunter in the state of WV.

From: gobbler
17-Mar-19
No offense taken. I was in a previously scheduled meeting with the Director and I asked him about the post to see if there was something going on that I didn’t know about. He said no, and that there were no plans to increase buck limit or bring rifle season into the bow counties. So that was why I posted. There wasn’t anything to brag about, I just wanted to communicate with bowhunters that the Director said there were no plans to do that. Communicating with sportsmen is part of the job description.

From: donniehunt
17-Mar-19
no problem keeping hunters up to date but beware being the middle guy. sometimes things get taken out of context it's always the middle guy that gets the heat.

From: gobbler
17-Mar-19
Thanks, I understand. Commissioners don’t get paid and I have never taken a penny in reimbursement for things like travel, food, and lodging that I could get reimbursed for. So, in reality I’m paying to take the heat! LOL . I know some people disagree with me and that’s fine and I expect it, but in my brain, heart, and gut I’m doing what I think is the best for DNR in the long term.

I know that people are reluctant and resistant to change, it’s human nature. But whether people agree or disagree the DNR is a business. It’s whole existence depends on selling a product. When you’re losing sales no matter what the reason, be it aging population, people moving out of state, younger people not hunting or whatever, successful businesses change the product to stabilize loss of sales and hopefully increase sales.

People say I have an agenda and to that I say yes, I do. That agenda is to increase license sales, not buck tag sales but license sales. The way to do that is by changing the product. If a public company has been losing sales for 20 years they don’t say well, let’s do the same thing next year and hope that it gets better. They say, how can we change what we’re selling to make it more attractive to our customers? Some people say the DNR can’t afford to do that but I think they can’t afford not to.

DNR parks got it figured out. They remodeled, renovated, and added new things like the zip-line at Pipestem. Their occupancy rates are on an upswing. They could have said let’s not do anything and hope people will come next year and if they used that philosophy they would have just been farther in debt the next year.

From: Babysaph
17-Mar-19
Don't think we can make up the hunters. I think we need to increase the license and fee costs.

17-Mar-19
DNR parks has been receiving funding from state forest timber sales. Allowing them to upgrade their product. Take that away and we still have the out dated attractions they have always had.

Where do we come up with the higher demand needed to replace money lost by a tag decrease? I've seen the models presented here and while I can't say any are off base or setup to create failure, I can say economic theory suggests a further decrease in demand once a fee increase is applied. Which is why there is no incentive for the DNR to do it since most of the hunters in this state are not killing two bucks. Much less three.

With no real way to ensure deer are being checked, accurately and in accordance with laws, all any further regulation will do is further hamper honest hunters who buy and hunt here, to start exploring other options, With a state like WV, no where are you far from other states, or the largest bow only area in the lower 48, that offers what the Better Buck Management crowd is suggesting as the correct answer. With little regard in my impression, to the differences that allow these other states to capitalize on the bigger deer on average that they offer.

In my opinion, based on basic economic theory, both resident and nonresident hunters that hunt WV are mostly doing so for reasons other then big bucks. So, how does managing a state that is over 80% forested, like a state that is heavily stocked with commercial agriculture offering the deer much better feed, going to draw hunters away from the more practical option of killing bigger horned and bodied deer?

Theory is all we have. But, most times the grass is not greener over yonder. It only appears that way from a distance, until you get there. Then there is a whole other host pf variables that you must deal with. What is not debatable is WV is not gong to flatten out and become heavy to agriculture. Which leads me to once again ask why then all the hoopla about trying to manage it that way with so many negatives presented for the future of license sales?

It is most certainly a difference in opinion. And, potentially a totally different understanding of cause and effect phenomenon.

From: gobbler
18-Mar-19
And yet state record typical and non typical archery, and state record typical and non typical gun kills are all from areas with minimal or no agriculture. McDowell, Wyoming, Wayne, and Nicholas counties are not known for their agricultural products like soybeans and corn.

I was told last summer in a meeting with DNR deer biologists that in WV with a limited few exceptions that 4.5 year old bucks should easily have 125 inch racks in the habitat that WV has. That was straight from a WV DNR deer biologists mouth in a meeting in S Chsrleston. Both Fred Richter and Tim Reed were in the meeting and can verify what was said. They are the second and third Presidents of WVBA.

From: JayD
18-Mar-19
Wouldn’t common sense say that since WV is almost 80% Forest that the record deer for our state would more than likely come from that more dominant habitat..... scary to think some believe our forest will put out the amount of food that agriculture land will year after year.

As to WV parks - nice to see some new features coming into the parks - sad to see such other features such as the golf courses deteriorate. So since some seem to think our Parks have it figured out - wasn’t it just this year that a hunt was canceled in one of our Parks? Is that what we need to look forward to with the rest of WV under this kind of leadership?

As to blatant made up figures - seems to me that’s is like the pot calling the kettle black.

From: gobbler
18-Mar-19
Mountaineer, I think WV Parks bit the bullet and issued bonds and that is where the renovations came from at least to my understanding.

JayD, it seems to me that you are contradicting what Mountaineer says, if I understand it he is implying that without AG WV won’t produce big deer.

As for golf, I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know anything about golf and have no desire to learn anything about it . What I do know is that golf courses are labor intensive and expensive to keep up. From my understanding, and I might be wrong, but the expenses outweighed the income for the golf courses on some of the parks .

Are you implying Director McDaniels has not shown good leadership?

From: Babysaph
18-Mar-19
4 1/2 year old deer should have 125 inch racks. Good luck finding one that old..

From: sundaynwv
18-Mar-19
When your best deer do not come from your best habitat its a MANAGEMENT issue.

Lowering the buck limit from 3 to 2 cost the state $150,000. Its in Chris Ryan's white paper. Jayd, I'm sure you can email and ask for it or I can post it in here.

We havent had a license increase since 2005. Our sportsman package cost less than half of other states. We give away too much.

If adding a doe on a base license costs the state then don't do it.

I honestly think.most resident.nonhunters come here to hunt because they have family here or want to fill the freezer. Nonresident are not the problem.

From: JayD
18-Mar-19
Gobbler - we have had these conversations too many times but I will explain again - first mountaineer is his own self and I don’t need to back him and he needs no group to bolster his ego. He pretty much states his opinion and some times I do agree with him.

First off - I get from what he is saying is that WV will not be the same as states with more agriculture not that it will not put out trophies. So are you seriously going to sit there and say in years following low nut production that deer will have the same amount of food sources that agricultural states will? Will the availability of food not effect the growth of the deer? I say - some years WV just won’t have the availability of food as some other states and it will effect our deer herd - but maybe things are different in your neck of the woods.

As to golf - golf can be expensive to maintain - so are you saying we get rid of the championship courses in our state parks or just not upgrade or maintain them? Our courses were deteriorating long before Director McDaniel took over - I think he is trying to do something about them but it is hard when the money isn’t there. I remember a time when the courses were in great shape and were the main attraction for several of our parks!

If you read what I wrote I said about a park not allowing a hunt. I would have never thought I would have ever heard of such a thing happening here in WV. So are you telling me that was the director’s decision - I thought it was a higher up’s decision and I think it was a terrible decision no matter who made it!

If you recall - I was not the one who implied that things were rigged by the DNR under the direction of the director - pretty sure that was you and Sunday who implied that. Oh - lets not forget the grade you gave towards our DNR as well. I still need to discuss some stuff with the director on that the next time we meet this Spring. My only concern for the director is that he has been swayed to believe that some groups are as big as they claim to be and if he should really be concerned with their opinions as much as he seems to be.

From: Little Bear
18-Mar-19
Hey Jimmy, been a lot of water under the bridge since your post above but do you remember this? I consider it an oldie but a goody even if it didn't pan out. Thread was titled "Where is Gobbler"... From: Jim Casto Jr ........ ....... Date: 04-Mar-15 Interesting, Ron. One thing for sure, ol' gobbler stays informed about current wildlife issues. My guess is, he'd most likely make an excellent commissioner. If that's true it would certainly account for why he's been missing here. A guy in that position couldn't get on these forums and "discuss" ... uh.... notions. He'd have to, shall we say, stay above the fray. :^)

From: gobbler
18-Mar-19
I said the park hunt was a political decision . The Director is not a politician, he is an appointed State employee and CEO of the DNR. He serves under the Department of Commerce, and the Department of Commerce reports to the Governor. I think he was chosen because of his business experience and knowledge. From what I’ve seen he has done an excellent job.

As for the grade, if you recall that was specifically about deer, not overall DNR. And as Jeff posted even the DNR biologists feel they need more does killed than bucks, but for last 10 years WV has constantly killed more bucks than does.

Hey Ed, did you have a day off from work? Maybe standing in a corner whispering behind your hand is the way some people like to communicate. But most everyone now uses a social media platform to communicate. I even heard that President Trump has a twitter account

Seriously Ed, which is better, a Commissioner that the public’s only contact with is to be able to speak to them for 3 minutes with no 2 way communication or one what communicates with them on social media? I can speak to tens of thousands of sportsmen and sportswomen with a click and they can communicate with me and ask a question and get a response, or they can float an idea and get an opinion .

Before I was a Commissioner I spoke at a lot of meetings and got no feedback. I think it’s great that McDaniels takes time at the end of the meeting to address people that spoke and people appreciate that immensely . IDK why everything should be kept some big secret? Put it out there and sir it out , let some sun shine on it and disinfect it. After all, the sportsmen and sportswomen are paying the bills.

From: Babysaph
18-Mar-19
Sunday you are right. In the smoke hole are NR's come to that area just to kill a deer. They load up on meat. Can't blame en.

From: Babysaph
18-Mar-19
I don't like the secrecy stuff either. No wonder our deer herd is out of wack if we kill more bucks than does.

18-Mar-19
Might be Greg. But, according to my sources, which are park superintendents and higher ups in the Division of Forestry, it is as I said. Maybe they are wrong. Or lying. But, I doubt it. I’d guess it might be a combination of many sources.

I’ll be the first to say that good woods habitat produces more then enough minerals to grow big deer. I KNOW it. It’s my job. What I’m confused about is why you’d put much stock in something a biologist says, that contradicts what leading organizations and deer biologists country wide say about the percentage of bucks that will ever reach that antler size. At any age.

Maybe you truly weren’t. Just throwing that out there for consideration. Either way, it goes back to that difference of opinion issue. Which is ok too.

What’s more pressing to me is how are we to conclude that changing anything is required? Or even a wise decision to ponder. Given the stats we have.

18-Mar-19
Cory, how do you conclude that the bow only counties isn’t good habitat. I’d argue it is more diverse, more multi aged, and more productive then any where else. Due to mountain top removal and mine site reclamation. It becomes a smorgasbord of uneven aged hanitat. The perfect storm for deer on a very large scale. Percentage wise, after spending hundreds of hours in a helicopter flying these counties, it’d be the perfect ratio of how to best manage a property for all ages of habitat.

From: Jim Casto Jr
18-Mar-19
Ed,

Sorry, I don't understand the context of your question to me. I simply asked sportoutfitter if he thought the other six commissioners were fair and unbiased.

As for my response in Ron's thread? Nothing has changed on this end. There's a big difference between offering information/opinion and engaging in constant rhubarbs--don't you think?

From: gobbler
18-Mar-19
Mountaineer, WV DNR put out a map a few years ago that showed using multiple variables as to where the prime deer habitat, average habitat, and worst deer habitat in the state was. The 4 bow counties were including in the worst habitat. It might take a bit of looking but if I can find it I’ll post it on here.

From: sundaynwv
18-Mar-19
Jayd,

About the state park hunt, can you tell me what commissioners were at the meeting working in keeping the hunt alive? The meeting was held in Kenny's home county. Was he there?

From: sundaynwv
18-Mar-19

sundaynwv's embedded Photo
sundaynwv's embedded Photo
Deer habitat quality I sex according to wvdnr. Red and orange are high. Blue and green are low.

Funny how.most large deer come from poor deer habitat, according to the wvdnr.

19-Mar-19
You might find this even more funny Cory.

I’m a forest ecologist. And know more about forest health then a wildlife biologists. Obviously a lot more then the guys who made that map.

Yes, I can go to nearly every ridge top or west to south slope in the coal fields and take a soil sample. And predict before I do that the ph is very acidic. And the site index is very low. Equating into poor ground.

I can also go to the north to east slopes and find soils in the 5.5-6 range on the ph scales. With site index’s in the mid 90’s. Which translates into great ground for growing browse for deer.

I can also go to most any reclaimed mine site, take soil samples and find ph’s in the 6’s. Due to the reclamation processes required by federal law. And, if you look hard enough, you’ll see that the total number of acres comprised in mountain top removal mines, in various states of mining and reclamation, are mind boggling huge in those red areas.

So, It really is a poor description to suggest the habitat is the worst in the state. For other reasons besides I just pointed out too. The biggest being the correlation most hunters mistakenly use when associating best farming practices of cultivated crops and, what’s best for deer. Uneven aged, disturbed forests are going to be high on the list of the best habitat. Not a perfect soil ph.

That’s just reality. No map needed.

From: sundaynwv
19-Mar-19
Trust the biologist! They have no idea what they are talking about! Which one is it?

19-Mar-19
I most certainly trust the wildlife biologists on wildlife Management related issues. However, habitat quality does not fall into a wildlife biologists wheel house. There is a reason they aren’t marking timber sales and habitat improvement cuts. They leave that to a forester.

Where your flawed is the notion a school teacher or a retired ER doc knows how to manage a deer herd better then a wildlife biologist. Or, impling that habitat quality correlates directly and is solely dependent on agriculture availability.

From: Rutbuster
19-Mar-19
Managing a deer herd for quantity versus quality are two very different management practices.

From: gobbler
19-Mar-19
Mountaineer, if you think that the best deer biologists in the nation don’t know anything or enough about forest health then maybe you have been talking to the wrong deer biologists. In QDMA’s deer stewardship programs forest health and ecology go hand in hand with deer management because they are so closely intertwined. Both affect each other almost to the degree that it’s a symbiotic relationship. They spend as much time on TSI, or even more as they do food plots because they know in the overall scheme of things it’s going to have a much bigger impact than a food plot or two.

From: Little Bear
19-Mar-19
Greg aka Gobbler,

After sleeping on this overnight, I want to apologize for my post above. It wasn’t very kind of me to poke fun and as you said above, we all have a right to express our opinions. It wasn’t very Christian-like of me either so I asked God to forgive me, and I’m asking you to forgive me as well. And I decided to post this openly in case my post offended anyone else.

Now, as to my personal preference on this whole issue, I hope all Commissioners set aside personal agendas and actually listen to what the biologists have to say. It really won’t impact the way I hunt either way. However, some of the (IMO) ridiculous proposals like 1 per weapon would impact my time outdoors and I would fight tooth and nail against that. By the way, I say it is ridiculous because if the goal is to reduce the number of bucks killed why would anyone want to restrict the use of a lesser effective weapon?

Oh, and no I wasn’t on vacation yesterday, I was on a late lunch break. Due to some system issues yesterday I had to work thru my normal lunch. I usually check-in on Bowsite non-sense during my lunch break if time allows.

From: gobbler
19-Mar-19
Ed, you don’t owe me an apology, as far as I’m concerned . I appreciate it, but we’re good. Most reasonable people can have a disagreement, work it out then be good again. I can and I have no doubt you can too.

I too wish all Commissioners would quit letting egos and grudges get in the way of working toward a common goal of providing WV hunters what they want in a biologically sound strategy. Yes, they should listen to biologists, they are the experts. But I think they should also reach out to out of state and nationally recognized national and University biologists. In any situation it’s better to get as much input from multiple sources to help reach a truly informed opinion.

When the Governor or Legislature wants to research an issue they consult with the state experts for their opinions and they also reach out to other states that are having similar issues to see how they are dealing with a problem, and /or new ideas to address an issue. There is no such thing as too much information in forming an opinion, but there is a problem with not having enough information to form an opinion.

Anyway, thank you for the post, but as far as I’m concerned we’re good

From: Babysaph
19-Mar-19
I think all of you guys don't get it. Until you convince the guys that control the money that they won't lose any money implementing any of this then nothing will change.. As one of the commissioners was quoted in an earlier pot said there is too much money to be lost.

From: sundaynwv
19-Mar-19
Who is impling that habitat quality correlates directly and is solely dependent on agriculture availability? This ex-school teacher is not. And one per weapon eliminates the gun season modality of get the first one you see down then hunt for antlers, especially if we have too many does.

Universal doe tags would add time afield for a bowhunter unless they are only concerned with hunting bucks.

19-Mar-19
Greg, I'm well aware of how they work together. I've been preaching it for the last 7 years on this forum. Everything you've said I have already said about a 1000 times now. I know how deer biologist gather information for their results. While I have done it, I'm no deer biologist. That specialty belongs to them. But, it does not make the experts on forest habitat. It makes them experts on deer biology. Just like they aren't a forester specializing in Forest Resource Management. All resources. Including wildlife. There is a reason you can hunt for weeks in areas down there and not see much. And, there is a reason a guy hunting 5 miles from you at the same time is seeing 10 deer a day. It is just like most other parts of the state. Some good and bad areas.

From: JayD
20-Mar-19
Sunday - I do not know who was at the meeting - I know you think I know Kenny but really I do not - if he was not there - then shame on him. As to the commissioners who were there - guess they didn’t do a very good job at convincing who needed to be convinced that the hunt was needed. Now as I say that about the other commissioners who were there I will imply the same for the rest of us is that we did not do a good job at convincing those who made the decision to cancel the hunt. I can promise you that next time when it is time to vote the person who ultimately made the decision will more than likely not get my vote though! I still cannot believe this happened in WV!

From: Babysaph
20-Mar-19
They have to listen to the flower sniffers. They vote too.

From: sundaynwv
20-Mar-19
Kenny Wilson was NOT at the meeting in his home county..Remarkably mute in the issue for some reason. Idk

From: JayD
20-Mar-19
Edited - I am sorry Mr. Wilson - did not know the circumstances and I should have found out before I misspoke.

Sunday - I agree with you - he should have been there for something that important. And again it seems the ones that were there didn’t do a very good job as well.

From: Little Bear
20-Mar-19
I do know Kenny and if you're referring to the meeting about Chief Logan State Park...Kenny's absence was due to his wife being critically ill. She spent over 30 days in the hospital as the Dr.'s couldn't control a thyroid issue. Not only that, but the Governor had already made the decision to cancel that hunt before the meeting was even held. There is more to life than deer hunting...something I know JayD understands and prayers continue for your wife also Jay.

From: JayD
20-Mar-19
Yes I do understand and I did not know that about Kenny. I should have known better than to listen to the one who was implying something because of Kenny not being at the meeting or remaining mute on the issue as he put it!

I thought it was the decision of the governor but a couple people on here were making it sound like it was due to an absence of a commissioner or the fault of the director.

Glad that was cleared up! And you are right I completely understand when it comes to an illness like that it will always be family first! Thanks LB for the info! Thank you for the prayers!

From: sundaynwv
20-Mar-19
Had no clue about the illness and for that I apologize.

Jayd, once again putting words in others mouths. Quit taking every comment on Earth the direction in which you want to hear it. No one blamed Jenny Wilson or McDaniels for the hunt being cancelled. NO ONE!

It was even irrelevant to the discussiin until you pulled it out of left field.

From: JayD
20-Mar-19
Cory - do you read what you post? So why did you ask me if Kenny was there after I made the comment about should we be following the direction of our state parks after a hunt had been terminated in one? Why did you capitalize the word NOT in that he was NOT at the meeting if you were not trying to imply something?

And I specifically stated under the leadership of who made the decision - knowing it was our governor - but then gobbler threw out if I was questioning the leadership of Director McDaniel. I DID NOT bring either into it - you and gobbler did - it’s easy to see in the post what you both implied - of course I am for sure for some it will be time to erase some post!

From: Babysaph
20-Mar-19
There is definitely more to life than bowhunting. Prayers for Kenny's wife

From: Babysaph
20-Mar-19
There is definitely more to life than bowhunting. Prayers for Kenny's wife and prayers for JayD's wife if she was I'll..

From: gobbler
20-Mar-19
I’ll second that

From: JayD
20-Mar-19
Thank you - JR and yes we are going through an illiness right now. I appreciate the prayers.....

20-Mar-19
Mountaineer....What do we do when the Sate Biologists want change? I/we talked to 2 different ones at the Milton meeting and both said we need change...more does, less bucks, but they could/would not get involved in the political side...They said that over and over, keep the politics out or we don't do politics or political issues.............They said it. What do we do with a commissioner who keeps lying and making up stuff to fit his agenda? Keep patting him on the back and giving him more appointments to the Commission?

and finally.........Why are all our surrounding states license sale and revenue increasing? We all know why, just be honest about it,,,They come here , fill every tag they can , then go home to hunt mature deer.

PS,,,,one more Wilson tall tale........The 4 bow only counties don't produce the most mature bucks.....They all come from Lincoln, Boone and Jackson....HIS WORDS as fact....Let that sink in.

There's a reason WV is dead last in everything, including falling hunting sales.....We fear change and thrive at the bottom, living/hunting.....sad, it doesn't have to be this way ,, But yet we have people who want and fight to keep it that way...see some above,..must be an "alliance" to keep us that way.

From: JayD
20-Mar-19
BOJ can I ask where you are getting your numbers from for the surrounding states? I just rechecked the numbers that the US fish and wildlife service puts out - and it doesn’t back up your claim regarding our surrounding states.

As to being dead last in everything - I was just looking at some articles from national publications that people have posted on here the past few years that shows WV has been climbing up the rankings as one of the better deer hunting states. Again I don't know why the articles have been written if things are in such a doom and gloom way?

Heck - even you stated in one of your post on here that things are better than what they were 10 years ago - 5 years ago and even better than just 2 years ago - those were your words. So just wondering where you are getting all this doom and gloom stuff from for WV?

And I am not saying we don’t need some change but are things really as bad as you say now - hard to believe you feel that way after that monster you killed last Fall.

Maybe there needs to be an Alliance here in WV to make sure the facts are stated and not the doom and gloom statements that are not backed by the numbers.

From: Babysaph
21-Mar-19
Lol sport. I don't hav better things to do. Laying on my back recovery from rotator cuff surgery hoping I'll ne strong enough to pull a bow to kill those lil Pendleton county deer this fall

From: JayD
21-Mar-19
Prayers for your recovery as well JR!

21-Mar-19
USFWS is where I got that info....

Sportoutfitter, guess since you guide in the bow only counties, you support Wilson, in increasing the limit? Iam sure that would put hunters in your cabins...Not really..you make your money off tourism, 1 buck limits help you out, but you don't want the competition from the rest of state? Is that it? You should see the positive effects a 1 buck limit offers............

But still no outrage at what Wilson said, except for the guys and gals who want lower limits......you all throw jabs at a Commissioner trying to help, but support one who makes stuff up as he goes........I guess that's the high road to take..

Change is coming....MAybe not this year, or next.......BUt sooner or later the state will figure out we are losing money........Hopefully the legislators don't have to get involved, but who knows..

From: gobbler
21-Mar-19
Does anyone know if the pony express still runs? Maybe I can communicate thru that? Or telegrams ? But I think Indians were always cutting the wires.

From: Babysaph
21-Mar-19
Might do that SO.

21-Mar-19
I see the smugness is on its way back. I see further fair representation of the touted commissioner in this and other threads. I thought you were done with bowsite. For the 3rd time. Who asked you back this time Greg?

BOJ, the one thing I will always be is honest. And, if you’d read my earlier post, I agree most out of state hunters come here to kill deer. So how in the world does decreasing their participation going to stop declining license sales? Your fearless ring leader, the great and equal commissioner says that’s his intent for wanting change. Do you agree that this change would increase sales? I only ask because You seem to be on board with him. So, explain please.

As far as ridiculous behavior by appointed commissioners, you should know I have a sour spot for that. Especially when they abuse their commission to promote their own agenda. With arrogant, egotistical behavior. What I’m confused about is you seem to be irritated with one while defending another for the same actions. Did he hurt your feelings? Do you suppose he is the only arrogant commissioner out there? What is it that allows you to defend commissioner Greg here, while campaigning against another for acting the same way?

I’m not trying to be a wise guy. I’m just asking honest questions.

21-Mar-19
I see the smugness is on its way back. I see further fair representation of the touted commissioner in this and other threads. I thought you were done with bowsite. For the 3rd time. Who asked you back this time Greg?

BOJ, the one thing I will always be is honest. And, if you’d read my earlier post, I agree most out of state hunters come here to kill deer. So how in the world does decreasing their participation going to stop declining license sales? Your fearless ring leader, the great and equal commissioner says that’s his intent for wanting change. Do you agree that this change would increase sales? I only ask because You seem to be on board with him. So, explain please.

As far as ridiculous behavior by appointed commissioners, you should know I have a sour spot for that. Especially when they abuse their commission to promote their own agenda. With arrogant, egotistical behavior. What I’m confused about is you seem to be irritated with one while defending another for the same actions. Did he hurt your feelings? Do you suppose he is the only arrogant commissioner out there? What is it that allows you to defend commissioner Greg here, while campaigning against another for acting the same way?

I’m not trying to be a wise guy. I’m just asking honest questions.

From: gobbler
22-Mar-19
Seems like I remember the Covington KY, high school kids being accused of arrogance and being smug by most everyone to promote their agenda based on 1 picture at 1 point in time. But then when the whole situation was shown on real time video, The whole truth finally came out and changed everyone’s perspective. Just a thought

From: woodstick
22-Mar-19
I didn't know you had to be invited to use this forum.

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